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This has been asked before. The consensus is that a Shield is a Weapon.
I'd say: By RAW he can't. Shields can be used as weapons, but primarily they are armor. So a compromise could be: You can manifest a shield for attacking, but you never get an AC bonus from it.
However, if a mindblade is capable of manifesting a deadly weapon, it should also be capable of creating a blocking barrier. Probably with a feat / class feature as price, probably for free - it depends on how much the character gains by it.
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In fact, they're listed as a weapon before they're listed as armor.
In the, what, 8 years that Pathfinder has been around, this discussion has been had plenty.
Shields are as much weapons as they are defensive items.
A Mindblade would have no problem conjuring a Light Spiked Shield if they wanted.
It's right there on the Weapons Table, clear as day.
And what about "oversized" weapons?
I see no problems with that.
Remember that an oversized dagger becomes a one-handed weapon with an attack penalty, and an oversized longsword becomes a two-handed weapon with an attack penalty, etc. A double-oversized dagger (two sizes larger) becomes a two-handed weapon with double the attack penalty.
I'm not sure there is much benefit to doing this. An oversized longsword should cost the mindblade 3 points, it would do greatsword damage but have a -2 attack penalty. Why not just spend those 3 points on a greatsword to do the same thing with no penalty?
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I'd say: By RAW he can't. Shields can be used as weapons, but primarily they are armor. So a compromise could be: You can manifest a shield for attacking, but you never get an AC bonus from it.
However, if a mindblade is capable of manifesting a deadly weapon, it should also be capable of creating a blocking barrier. Probably with a feat / class feature as price, probably for free - it depends on how much the character gains by it.
Even if this were correct (it isn't), If a mind blade manifested a scizore or a Meteor Hammer, would they no longer gain the shield bonus granted by those weapons?
And they are found on what table again?
Both the weapon and armor ones. So I don't see tables as having ANY relevance.
IMO, shield is clearly a weapon AND armor at the same time. this isn't new ground. A melee weapon, like a dagger, can be a ranged weapon. A ranged weapon, like a musket axe, can be a melee weapon. So does it matter if a shield is a weapon that can also be used as armor or it's armor that can also be used as a weapon, because it seems like a distinction without a difference to me.
By real life rules, a shield is a weapon. In combat, if I can strike you in the skull with it, I will.
Besides, cowering behind your shield as if it were a wall is a bad idea because the opponent can cut through your shield with an axe
unless you have a tower shield I guess but those are very un-viking and unwieldy.
</interesting facts since the question has already been answered>
In an extreme case of offensive shield use, Grettir kicked Snækollr's shield up into his head so hard that Snækollr's face ripped open and his jaws fell down to his chest, as is told in chapter 40 of Grettis saga.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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IMO, shield is clearly a weapon AND armor at the same time. this isn't new ground. A melee weapon, like a dagger, can be a ranged weapon. A ranged weapon, like a musket axe, can be a melee weapon. So does it matter if a shield is a weapon that can also be used as armor or it's armor that can also be used as a weapon, because it seems like a distinction without a difference to me.
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If you get a weapon, such as a Shield, it also provides a shield bonus.
If you get a weapon, such as a Dagger, it can also be thrown.
Can I make a ladder? I could use it to fight or climb walls!
Jackie Chan with Ladder (at about 3:20)
How about a chair? Maybe a garden gnome? Spiked armor? 100 feet of knotted rope?
How far is too far when it comes to pushing what is "a weapon"?
@Bill Dunn by game rules, when it would have to be considered an improvised weapon instead, I believe.
In any case, the shield is made for combat and it has been accepted as a weapon since time imemmorial. (in real life anyway. took a while for fantasy rpgs to catch on I think)
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Ironically, I think there's actually a ladder weapon printed already... So yeah.
also I think by the rules the spikes on spiked armor is considered a weapon.
Pathfinder has stats for a battle ladder, so you can absolutely do that.
As for the rest, I personally wouldn't say no because choosing to make a chair instead of a real weapon seems like a strait debuff (as hilarious at it is).
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Ironically, I think there's actually a ladder weapon printed already... So yeah.I'd say only if a printed weapon was a ladder.
An improvised weapon, by definition is a non-weapon used in combat. So no improvised weapons by my RAW.
Luckily, there is one.
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A Shield is absolutely a weapon.
It resides on the Weapons table.
It is part of the Close Fighter Weapon Group.
It is a legal choice for any feat that specifies a particular weapon, such a Weapon Focus.
It can be enchanted as a Weapon, with Weapon enchantments.
It can be the target of spells and abilities that target Weapons.
You can even two hand a Heavy Shield, for x1.5 strength to damage, just like any other One-handed Weapon.
A Shield is a Weapon.
I think the more pertinent question isn't if you can create a shield, (Which, I agree, you can) but can you create a shield and use it as a shield? Getting a shield bonus and all that.
And, as mentioned above, what stops you from making other 'weapons' and using those as tools?
also I think by the rules the spikes on spiked armor is considered a weapon.
Yes, but of course that doesn't work for a Mindblade.
This psychic weapon can last indefinitely, but it vanishes if it leaves the mindblade’s hand.
This has been asked before. The consensus is that a Shield is a Weapon.And they are found on what table again? Oh yes.... the armor table.
Shields can be used as weapons but they still come under the Armor and Shield type, so by RAW... the answer is no. You can not conjure shields with the mindblade power.
I really don't understand what you are saying here. Is there a rule that states that items can not be both weapons and armor? And if there is such a rule, does it give precedence to the armor table? I can't find any rules text regarding this.
A Mindblade can manifest any weapon, on the weapon table.
A Shield is a weapon, on the weapon table.
Being in the Armor/Shield section as well does not change this at all.
At it's heart, the item is a shield that can be used as a weapon. Not the other way around.
With the logic you use, might as well say the mindblade can manifest dual tower shields.. After all Shield Bash is a weapon attack.
My last post got somewhat ninja'd by your last post. Can you please cite the rules that let us determine what an item is "at it's heart?"
Now you're being pedantic.My last post got somewhat ninja'd by your last post. Can you please cite the rules that let us determine what an item is "at it's heart?"A Mindblade can manifest any weapon, on the weapon table.
A Shield is a weapon, on the weapon table.
Being in the Armor/Shield section as well does not change this at all.
At it's heart, the item is a shield that can be used as a weapon. Not the other way around.
With the logic you use, might as well say the mindblade can manifest dual tower shields.. After all Shield Bash is a weapon attack.
Oh, dearie me! I wouldn't want to be pedantic in a Rules Forum discussion. ;)
Check all the art you've ever seen of it. what does it bloody look like... a shield with spikes sticking out of it. Or are you going to argue that it's actually spikes with a shield bolted on?
To me it looks like both a weapon and a tool for defense. But my impression is irrelevant. What matters is that the rule books place it in both categories. It would be great if you could address my previous questions. I've quoted them below.
Is there a rule that states that items can not be both weapons and armor? And if there is such a rule, does it give precedence to the armor table?
And to settle a previous issue:
With the logic you use, might as well say the mindblade can manifest dual tower shields.. After all Shield Bash is a weapon attack.
This is an entirely different issue than Light and Heavy shields. Tower Shields do not appear on the weapons charts because you can't bash with them.
Shield, Tower: ...You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else....
Shields can be used as weapons, but primarily they are armor.Shields can be used for defense, but they are primarily weapons.
Nefreet, I can't find that second quote in the PRD. What book is it from?
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Check all the art you've ever seen of it. what does it bloody look like... a shield with spikes sticking out of it. Or are you going to argue that it's actually spikes with a shield bolted on?
Actually, every bit of artwork I've ever seen for a klar looks like a gauntlet sword with the 'gauntlet' being a skull. Yet it is classified as a shield.
I can see the motivation behind your argument that a shield created by a Mindblade could be used as a weapon, but not a shield... but I don't think it makes sense. Should picks not be usable for breaking rocks? Axes no good for cutting wood? Scythe's completely unable to clear grain? Hammers avoid nails at all costs? Et cetera.
Do gauntlets not protect the wearer's hands? Or aren't those weapons either?
If you want to make a "Sword and Board" Mindblade, there are a few ways to further improve your armor bonus. (You'll need to get shield proficiency to make these work, so maybe a Fighter dip for the extra feat.)
(1) The Shield Focus feat increases your shield's shield bonus by +!.
(2) The Greater Shield Focus feat increases your shield's shield bonus by another +!.
(3) The Gnome favored class bonus lets them add Defending to the list of Arcane Pool special abilities. They can use that to convert some (and at higher levels all) of the shield's offensive enhancement bonus into an untyped AC bonus so long as they make an attack with the shield that round. (Improved Shield Bash is necessary to make the attack and still keep the shield bonuses.) The Defending bonus hits a maximum at 15th level when they can manifest a +3 Defending shield, and convert the entire +3 bonus to AC.
If you did all of these things together you would have a +2 shield bonus from the heavy shield, another +2 shield bonus from the Shield Focus feat line, and a +3 untyped bonus from Defending. That's a total of +7 to AC. And the Gnome also gets a +1 size bonus to AC.
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Nefreet, I can't find that second quote in the PRD. What book is it from?Shields can be used as weapons, but primarily they are armor.Shields can be used for defense, but they are primarily weapons.
Paizo.com/attemptathumor
The 2nd quote is just a reworded version of the 1st.
Because, for the longest time after the first release of the ACG, the joke here on the forums was "Why would the Brawler use a Bashing Disc for defense?"
Nefreet, I can't find that second quote in the PRD. What book is it from?Shields can be used as weapons, but primarily they are armor.Shields can be used for defense, but they are primarily weapons.Paizo.com/attemptathumor
The 2nd quote is just a reworded version of the 1st.
Because, for the longest time after the first release of the ACG, the joke here on the forums was "Why would the Brawler use a Bashing Disc for defense?"
Ah, I see it now. I never really paid attention to Brawler threads, so I didn't know it was a running gag.
A tower shield is not a weapon. A buckler is not a weapon. A light shield is a weapon. A heavy shield is a weapon. This can be ascertained by reading the weapon table in the core rule book.
Even if there are no spikes on it.
It's odd because in real life you totally make bash attacks with a buckler. But the real world buckler is so very different than the pathfinder buckler, in so many ways.
also I think by the rules the spikes on spiked armor is considered a weapon.
Correct, so you could actually put Armor Spikes on Armor. Unfortunately by RAW, unless you're considered having Armor Spikes in your hand, it dissipates.
So this means that Armor Spikes aren't an applicable choice, but it's certainly not because it isn't a weapon.
still havent seen any thoughts on this yet, will two points get you just a heavy shield or a spiked heavy shield?
The spikes for a shield don't require any points to utilize, because the spikes themselves aren't weapons. They actually improve (and alter) the shield, and aren't categorized separately.
These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
There are numerous instances, within the very same entry of Shield Spikes, that denotes a shield that has spikes, as being a singular entity, as well as the entry specifically saying that it merely transmogrifies the weapon type and increases the damage dice. That's all it does; it's otherwise no different than any other shield.
Unless you've been sitting there listening to JJ say how Spikes are different entities from the Shield, there should be zero reason, by the rules, that Spikes on a Shield are treated as separate from the Shield itself, because the book never referred to them as separate.
And if you have, then you've been wrong the whole time. He's not a rules guy (more of a flavor/setting guy), and he certainly doesn't have the RAW or RAI on the matter, since this subject matter has never been errata'd to reflect JJ's RAI.
I am in complete agreement with BBT. A shield for the purposes of this ability is a weapon.
The spikes for a shield don't require any points to utilize, because the spikes themselves aren't weapons. They actually improve (and alter) the shield, and aren't categorized separately.
(snip)These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
They do require points, otherwise it's not really spiked, is it?
But yeah, from the lengthy arguments I've seen here, they're counted as weapons. I've toyed with the idea of someone actually going spiked heavy shield as a main weapon and shortsword as an offhand weapon, although I don't think that'd work as a practical build. (And twohanded weapons are just more fun.)
I don't have the mindblade on hand to see, but you might have to worry depending on if they get martial weapons or not once you spike up your shields. (If they're just proficient with anything they make with this ability, never mind then of course.)