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It's an easy question, because I've played rogues for 20 years. I don't find them incapable of being played, and I enjoy playing rogues & 1 ninja. I play more rogues now than in the past
I mentioned tracking sheets earlier, each game I play I record the events an views of the players and GM (for my own amusement). I love the comments in these threads, they make great questions.
Did the Rogue contribute at all to the mission?
(Earlier thread)
Do you consider your system mastery to be sub par?
Did the writer soft pitch the scenario?
You could EASILY just flavor the extracts as potions you got 'from a guy' or 'just had enough knowhow' to make.
I hope we agree that extracts do magical things. Assuming that, I do not want to be capable of creating something magical. I am just a dude. As to just getting them "from a guy" I find it hard to believe that the rogue happens to know an alchemist that owes him indefinite favors everywhere he happens to be, from the smallest hamlet, to a deserted island to stuck underground.
Investigator has a built in sneak attack substitute (that's better) and Alchs can go either vivi (sorry PFS)
They can both get (essentially) sneak attack. No argument there and I'm not arguing that rogue is a match for these clasees mechanicaly. They're not. I'm arguing that there's a flavor that can be gotten out of rogue that's not possible once there's bombs and extracts flying about.
or bombs, and let's not even pretend things like a smoke bomb/poison bomb/80% of poison discoveries don't just scream better rogue flavor than most of what a rogue already does.
Sure, up until this conversation happens, "hey rogue you have like a billion bombs, give me one and we can both toss one at the guy when he comes around the corner and it'll be sweet." Now I'm stuck coming up with a weak rationalization why I can't hand out my "mundane equipment" when the actual answer is clearly 'cause they're magic.
As for 'only they can make use of' both have Infusion as a class ability, take it and everyone can use them, they're standard scaling potions. Higher intelligence gives better potions/extracts? It's because you find a better source/use your resources more intelligently.
Infusion, yea sure, it's a work around, can't have it right out the gate though, there's still a point in your career that you were making potions that were strictly tied to you.
Funny how my wizard buddy who's at least as brilliant as me can't seem to duplicate the amazing potions of the humble party "rogue".
Alchemist/Investigator are perfect subs, and while you can talk about not wanting to have daily resources (which I myself don't understand),
For some people it's about having as little to keep track of as possible, for others it's the idea that this resource that I've been swearing up and down is a totally mundane thing is something i'll run out of and then with no explanation have more of even if we're stuck in the most barren of locales.
what about your non renewable consumables, or do you just never pick up anything that's use dependent?
I pick them up all the time, the important thing is that I didn't make them, they work for me exactly like they work for every other dude out there and that I don't inexplicably just get more of them.
Seriously, an alch/invest's ability to take a minute to make a potion works great thematically for a rogue like character who just 'somehow' has the right item when it's needed.
Again, the humble party rogue is out doing the dedicated potion crafter while swearing it's just some simple trick he's picked up. Not that he could possibly show someone else how to do it if his life depended on it.
Aside from that (and mutagen, which again is only a 'different' potion), there's nothing inherently magical about the class that you're forced to take, no one's making you take vestigial arm, you could just act like a rogue and you'd be fine!
Our definitions of inherently magical are clearly very different.
Now, can all of these things be swept under the rug and hand waved away? Yes, sure they can and if a group wants to all collectively pretend that you being unable to craft more of your "mundane equipment" till you sleep isn't a clear sign that it's less mundane then you're letting on then that's great, more power to them. The whole game is about collective pretending after all.
But I want a non magical sneaky dude that doesn't have to pretend.
- Torger
Urban trapper ranger. No spells, lots of skills, contributes quite well AND more thematic...The idea that how many traps I can make is limited not by the resources at my disposal but instead by the passing of 24hrs is loathsome to me.
- Torger
Slayer then.
Oh and you still can... its called Craft (trapsmith)
As I admitted in my post directly above the one you chose to reply to, slayer is very close to getting the job done for me.
Feel free to you know... read it.
- Torger
You could EASILY just flavor the extracts as potions you got 'from a guy' or 'just had enough knowhow' to make.I hope we agree that extracts do magical things. Assuming that, I do not want to be capable of creating something magical. I am just a dude. As to just getting them "from a guy" I find it hard to believe that the rogue happens to know an alchemist that owes him indefinite favors everywhere he happens to be, from the smallest hamlet, to a deserted island to stuck underground.
Investigator has a built in sneak attack substitute (that's better) and Alchs can go either vivi (sorry PFS)They can both get (essentially) sneak attack. No argument there and I'm not arguing that rogue is a match for these clasees mechanicaly. They're not. I'm arguing that there's a flavor that can be gotten out of rogue that's not possible once there's bombs and extracts flying about.
or bombs, and let's not even pretend things like a smoke bomb/poison bomb/80% of poison discoveries don't just scream better rogue flavor than most of what a rogue already does.Sure, up until this conversation happens, "hey rogue you have like a billion bombs, give me one and we can both toss one at the guy when he comes around the corner and it'll be sweet." Now I'm stuck coming up with a weak rationalization why I can't hand out my "mundane equipment" when the actual answer is clearly 'cause they're magic.
As for 'only they can make use of' both have Infusion as a class ability, take it and everyone can use them, they're standard scaling potions. Higher intelligence gives better potions/extracts? It's because you find a better source/use your resources more intelligently.Infusion, yea sure, it's a work around, can't have it right out the gate though, there's still a point in your career that you were making potions that were strictly tied to you.
Funny how my wizard buddy who's at least as brilliant as me...
Investigator has 2 archetypes that get rid of extracts, making them a purely non-magical class.
He will find another excuse... look at all the caveats he has to do just to make a "point"....
Again, the problem is that rogues are eclipsed in every way.
For instance lets look at thw Paladin, ranger, and barbarian. They are all strong classes. They are pretty well balanced vs each other. None completely eclipses another.
Now look at the rogue. In just about every case or "idea" the rogue would be better off as something else. Want to make an assassin type? Ranger, slayer, and ninja. The thief? The ninja, alchemist, investigator, or bard. The manipulator? Bards or Mesmerists. The criminal mastermind? Mesmerists, investigators, and bards. The dirty underhanded fighter? Rangers and Slayers. The child of the streets? Rangers.
I mean, they are utterly eclipsed. Atleast with the fighter, the wall of feats allow for builds not normally possible with other classes (super mega trip of death guys for instance...). The rogue barely has anything its own.anymore.
Heck, look at how many classes and archetypes even get rogue tricks. Everyone else is STEALING FROM THE ROGUE ironically enough....
What I dont understand is why do 'you' care if some likes to play a rogue? If the group is having fun, how does that effect 'you' who are not even in the group/state/counrty?
What do 'you' care if my little cousin gets traded from his Pee Wee Little League team to your favorite major league baseball team, to pitch in the World Series? If your favorite player is the catcher, he's still catching, so it shouldn't matter at all who's pitching, right?
The fact that it's a team game is exactly why people care that the rogue is presented as being equal to a bard or investigator, but is actually worse at everything.
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It's a little-known fact, but Warrior is actually a much better class than Fighter, too. Because not everyone wants to have to keep track of stuff like bravery and armor training and weapon training. All those bonuses all over just really interfere with how I see the fighter, which is a guy who does his thing without the need for a lot of pesky plus signs. So, for me, playing a warrior is obviously the superior choice, and every team would be much happier recruiting my warrior, rather than Sam's fighter over there.
If the group is having fun and no one is whining that one of the players brought a rogue, how does that effect ANYONE not playing in that group?
Your sports example was kind of lame and useless.
The sports example was dead-on, because if everyone is having fun and no one is whining about the rogue/Little League player, then you're not playing in the World Series anyway. And that's actually best, if that's what you're going for. When I was in Little League, we all had a ton of fun. But my friend's team didn't have Reggie Jackson playing right field, either, which was a pretty important consideration when they were up to bat against us.
Any team is fun if everyone in the team contributes within a reasonable range. You can have fun with a party whose levels range from 6th to 8th, too. A team stops being fun if the levels of contribution vary wildly, however. A party with some 1st level characters and some 15th level characters isn't going to be as fun as one in which everyone is either 1st or 15th.
A party with a poorly-optimized sorcerer, a well-optimized paladin, and a well-optimized rogue will be be great. No problems. A party with a well-optimized wizard, barbarian, and bard can still be fine. But at middle level and above, a party with a well-optimized wizard, fighter, and rogue isn't going to be as fun as either of the other ones, because the contributions are so unequal.
Investigator has 2 archetypes that get rid of extracts, making them a purely non-magical class.
Neat, did not know that, pardon me whist I have a look.
*Comes back*
Ok so if looks like the two you're talking about are Spiritualist and Sleuth
Spiritualist still smacks of magic to me.
Sleuth on the other hand I'm on board with as a 100% non magical rogue replacement. Point conceded.
- Torger
He will find another excuse... look at all the caveats he has to do just to make a "point"....
Well they're really all the same cavet, which is "No matter how much you want to white wash it my character is clearly doing magic and I don't want him to be."
I just thought it would be nice to address the rebuttal point by point.
- Torger
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If the group is having fun and no one is whining that one of the players brought a rogue, how does that effect ANYONE not playing in that group?
It doesn't. Even if someone is whining unless it is the rogue it still doesn't affect anyone in the group.
And if someone is off the rails I dont berate them for choosing any class / feat / item. What is your goal? Here is an idea on how to get there. It is a more friendly approach.
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quick disable: Meh. Really, how many disable device checks occur in combat? if you don't have it the dm would have to be a twit for the lack of it to get you killed while the room is filling up with water.
It depends on the game. I recently played a season 6 PFS scenario that required several in-combat disable device checks. If they failed, there was the potential to kill all characters in the adventure (and destroy Absalom).
I'm not a fan of this mentality. The complaint is applicable to EVERY class as long as they're not optimized to a certain degree. If you find this to be a waste of your time, you should stay home and do something else with your time, don't ruin the fun of others.It's a problem for people who end up with Rogues in their party, being a useless burden on their allies too.
If you can't hang on your own, stay home. Don't make me waste my resources cause you're bad at your job.
It actually only has a little to with optimization and practically everything to do with options. A Rogue has very little to contribute to the party and in fact tends to need resources from the party to participate. An alchemist has many options to contribute to the party and never needs resources to merely function. That's not an optimization thing, that's a class design thing.
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Again, the problem is that rogues are eclipsed in every way.And again, you're late to the party. I don't think that this is the problem for people who playes Rogues. I think it's only the problem for everybody who doesn't want to. I'm not saying that people playing Rogues knows something or does something different that contradicts your statment, just that the statment isn't a problem to them.
Pretty much this.
If someone likes playing a rogue, why should that bother you who are not in any way connected to the game they are playing in?
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Because that's BADWRONGFUN.Exactly. Everyone on this thread who hate rogues is telling everyone who like to play rogues that they're playing the game wrong.
I don't care if people like playing the Rogue. I care when they insist that the Rogue is fine because they say so.
And I take exception when I'm told that I hate Rogues, just because I recognize that they are subpar mechanically. It's the people who like Rogues who will argue most vehemently for them to be improved: "I'd love to play Rogue, but not while they're in this state."
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It's a problem for people who end up with Rogues in their party, being a useless burden on their allies too.
If you can't hang on your own, stay home. Don't make me waste my resources cause you're bad at your job.
I'm not a fan of this mentality. The complaint is applicable to EVERY class as long as they're not optimized to a certain degree. If you find this to be a waste of your time, you should stay home and do something else with your time, don't ruin the fun of others.
And the Rogue can pull its own in some regards, you're not stuck with a Kobold Commoner.
Never underestimate a Kobold.
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Because that's BADWRONGFUN.Exactly. Everyone on this thread who hate rogues is telling everyone who like to play rogues that they're playing the game wrong.I don't care if people like playing the Rogue. I care when they insist that the Rogue is fine because they say so.
And I take exception when I'm told that I hate Rogues, just because I recognize that they are subpar mechanically. It's the people who like Rogues who will argue most vehemently for them to be improved: "I'd love to play Rogue, but not while they're in this state."
Personally, I'd like to think it's because of the rogue threads that we even got the UC rogue. As to Torger, I'd try and refute your arguments, but really you're more dedicated to your stance than I am, so there's really no point.
I'd like to think that discussing these issues more would show that while progress was made, it still isn't enough. I do doubt it though. Everyone who's taking this as a personal attack on the rogue is internalizing it too much, this isn't about you specifically, this is about the class, and no one's saying that you're playing wrong, it is, and always has been, about improving the class, not chastising you about playing the game the way you enjoy it.
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Because that's BADWRONGFUN.Exactly. Everyone on this thread who hate rogues is telling everyone who like to play rogues that they're playing the game wrong.I don't care if people like playing the Rogue. I care when they insist that the Rogue is fine because they say so.
And I take exception when I'm told that I hate Rogues, just because I recognize that they are subpar mechanically. It's the people who like Rogues who will argue most vehemently for them to be improved: "I'd love to play Rogue, but not while they're in this state."
To be fair Athaleon not everyone came across as out and out hating the rogue class but, it seemed to me that there was enough of 'anyone who plays a rogue is stupid' that those just making suggestions that, in their opinion, is better choice then the rogue were over shadowed.
But that could just be me.
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If the group is having fun and no one is whining that one of the players brought a rogue, how does that effect ANYONE not playing in that group?
Your sports example was kind of lame and useless.
The sports example was dead-on, because if everyone is having fun and no one is whining about the rogue/Little League player, then you're not playing in the World Series anyway. And that's actually best, if that's what you're going for. When I was in Little League, we all had a ton of fun. But my friend's team didn't have Reggie Jackson playing right field, either, which was a pretty important consideration when they were up to bat against us.
Any team is fun if everyone in the team contributes within a reasonable range. You can have fun with a party whose levels range from 6th to 8th, too. A team stops being fun if the levels of contribution vary wildly, however. A party with some 1st level characters and some 15th level characters isn't going to be as fun as one in which everyone is either 1st or 15th.
A party with a poorly-optimized sorcerer, a well-optimized paladin, and a well-optimized rogue will be be great. No problems. A party with a well-optimized wizard, barbarian, and bard can still be fine. But at middle level and above, a party with a well-optimized wizard, fighter, and rogue isn't going to be as fun as either of the other ones, because the contributions are so unequal.
Actually Kirth the sport example wasnt even close.
I asked, if your not even in the group that has the rogue in it, AND that group was having fun and not bothered that one of the players was playing a rogue, how in any way was that even your concern?
How was his sports example dead-on?
I didn't get that feeling. Most people just seemed to be saying 'The rogue sucks, and that sucks'.
But that could just be me.
The rogue is mechanically subpar, that is the problem. I'd like to focus on solving the problem, so what are possible solutions?
- Play something else
- Play the rogue anyway (whether you believe rogue is mechanically subpar or not)
- Fix the rogue class
The third takes a fair amount of work. Paizo is unlikely to release a third iteration of the rogue for the next couple of years which leaves 3PP. I've created such a 3PP and you can find the link to it in my profile.
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The rogue being mechanically sub-par doesn't mean you can't have fun playing it. But then, I once GMed a session where on my players was running a Commoner NPC after their character died, and had a blast playing as a poor ordinary farmer who stumbled into the middle of all the craziness the party was involved in. The party actually wound up going to a lot of trouble to keep said level 1 commoner alive, and stacking up enough buffs on him to let him contribute.
However, the fact that everyone had fun doesn't change the fact that the level 1 Commoner was at all equal to the level 8 PC-classed party. Just like the fact that people can have fun playing a rogue doesn't mean it's not a mechanically flawed class.
Unchained rogues are a solid tier 4. In a party without fullcasters they can be a good party member.
They get free dex to damage, they can lower ac or attack or speed. They get unique skill powers. UC rogue sneak attack is easier to land (works with partial concealment). All of this isn't better than most rogue replacements, but it isn't completely eclipsed by them.
The rogue problem as of now is more tied to the general caster v martial.
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Now I actually need to ask, because it seems like I'm missing something. Who is better at detecting traps and disabling traps than the Rogue? I know that a lot can get as good, but does anyone else really gain something that can take them beyond the Rogue in this regard?
Granted, this is not a huge area.
Seeing as traps top out at DC 30 from what I remember (correct me if I'm wrong), you don't really need to be better than the rogue for long, so it's kind of a moot point, as well as the archaeologist bard getting their bonus to perception to everything, not just trapfinding (unless it's been errata'd)
I'm also a bit confused as to why people get angry when they need to spend resources on others' characters. I have never, and I mean NEVER, before heard of a Cleric who gets pissed because everyone else in the party is hogging all their healing spells "because those are MY spells". Or a Bard who thinks using Inspire Courage on anybody else is a waste of their resources. Or just a Wizard who doesn't want to buff "because you're wasting my Fireball potential".
It's less an anger towards needing to use resources on someone else and more a matter of someone else picking a less versatile class that demands other classes to use resources on them.
The aforementioned classes (bard/alch/invest/inquis/etc) bring their own resources, so it increases the party's resources as a whole. And I've actually had situations with a rogue where they're demanding buffs of my character (an alchemist) because 'they can use them more efficiently', thus feeling entitled to someone else's class features rather than feeling like a member of the team. So yeah, I've been annoyed at other party members for this since they had all the same options of selecting a class like me, and took one that added 0 resources to the group.
And I'm not trying to praise the Rogue by saying that it's at least better than a Kobold Commoner. I'm saying that some of you here seem to think that the Rogue is as worthless and can't do jack s~*#, like a Kobold Commoner, which just isn't true. Some are even so convinced of this that they'd rather force people not to play at all than have them participate as a Rogue.
No one's saying "Don't Play", the point here is that to me, a 3/4ths character without magic doesn't work. It just doesn't, at least with the bar that every other 3/4th bab character has set before them. On an objective level, rogue is the weakest 3/4ths bab class in the game, full stop.
The only close thing to it would be the monk, which gets lots of magical features as well as some of the best archetype support in the game, something the rogue (aside from a few gems like ninja) doesn't get.
Part of me feels like this is due to an inability to give EX abilities anywhere near the power of SU and SP due to some thoughts on realism which shouldn't apply to this RPG. 'Realism' is the death of a lot of fun EX ideas, and me personally, I'd like to see the rogue get more fun EX rogue talents that play to their strengths rather than what we have as of now.
Also thanks @Matt, never thought about setting up my profile to show the projects I've worked on. Now everyone can keep up to date with my guides and the freelance work I've done by clicking my profile, thanks for the idea!
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Now I actually need to ask, because it seems like I'm missing something. Who is better at detecting traps and disabling traps than the Rogue? I know that a lot can get as good, but does anyone else really gain something that can take them beyond the Rogue in this regard?
Granted, this is not a huge area.
Druids and some clerics are better at detecting them. They're also better at disabling the vast majority of them with a summoned critter.
I'm also a bit confused as to why people get angry when they need to spend resources on others' characters. I have never, and I mean NEVER, before heard of a Cleric who gets pissed because everyone else in the party is hogging all their healing spells "because those are MY spells". Or a Bard who thinks using Inspire Courage on anybody else is a waste of their resources. Or just a Wizard who doesn't want to buff "because you're wasting my Fireball potential".
And I'm not trying to praise the Rogue by saying that it's at least better than a Kobold Commoner. I'm saying that some of you here seem to think that the Rogue is as worthless and can't do jack s**#, like a Kobold Commoner, which just isn't true. Some are even so convinced of this that they'd rather force people not to play at all than have them participate as a Rogue.
The rogue didn't do its job particularly well, much less anyone elses. Many other classes could easily do the same thing and better. Unchained may have fixed that (i'll see)
investigator, they have self casting heroism and inspiration that can make them higher than a rogue on disable device. And they can have a mutagen that boosts dex to get even more.
It's not the AoE buffs, or healing that they care about, though a rogue can require more healing than other classes. Its that needs more resources than another class would need. Like the caster having to prep an extra fly every day, or a couple of invisibility for the rogue. And a rogue without SA damage is pretty much an expert NPC class.
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@N.Jolly: Fair points, but people ARE saying "Don't Play".
SOME people are saying that, just like SOME people are saying "the rogue is fine, stop throwing these large rocks at my glass house, it's very vulnerable to damage!"
I can respect that there was effort made in making the UC rogue, and really while they're not classes I would play personally, you can see that at the very least, the swashbuckler and slayer, the two new classes that came out after a lot of these conversations, have a lot of class features that are better than the fighter. But you know what we HAVEN'T seen? A new 3/4ths BAB non-magical class.
I'm not sure if we're supposed to consider the UC rogue a fill in for that spot yet again, but it's really the only mechanical version of that specific archetype (non magical but non full BAB), and it's somewhat telling to me that we haven't seen another one. We have the vigilante coming up, but even that's not fully into the rogue's paradigm with its options, making it a hard comparison.
A lot of people (understandably) want a 3/4ths non-magical BAB character, I don't blame them, I'd love to see one that was guide-worthy, but there isn't. As stated before, most of the UC talents, while better, still aren't up to where rage powers/discoveries/invest talents/etc are on the power scale, and that's the issue.
And the discoveries/invest talents/etc are also backed up by 6th level casting, meaning that if you were to make a new 3/4ths BAB non-magical class, the sum of those class features would have to at least come close to meeting the value of 6th level casting. Note that I say 'come close', not 'must meet and surpass.' I love my gunslinger even though it's a 5 level class for some of the options it opens up and its use of the multiclassing system, but it's T4 at best.
Personally I'm looking forward to the vigilante to see if the non casting versions of it (or even the casting version of it) is worth adding to the game which from a LOT of the buzz I've seen, it's not. I just think the design team needs to work on a 3/4ths BAB non-magical class that can compete on relatively even footing with the alch/invest/inquis/etc without feeling like it's being left behind mechanically.
No, I am asking, Why play the rogue?
I have yet to see any reason WHY rogue.
The funny thing is, the only reason it seems is purely for the name rogue.
For people who want to.play concepts: like say... a thief... it has been shown that rogue is almost never the best choice... or even a good choice. So many better options.
For people who like mechanics, again rogue is lacking all around.
All i can think of is the people who are stuck on names (ninjas MUST be eastern pajama wearers, ALL saMURAI come from Japan, wizards wear pointy hats and robes,ect.) ...
@N.Jolly: Fair points, but people ARE saying "Don't Play".SOME people are saying that, just like SOME people are saying "the rogue is fine, stop throwing these large rocks at my glass house, it's very vulnerable to damage!"
I can respect that there was effort made in making the UC rogue, and really while they're not classes I would play personally, you can see that at the very least, the swashbuckler and slayer, the two new classes that came out after a lot of these conversations, have a lot of class features that are better than the fighter. But you know what we HAVEN'T seen? A new 3/4ths BAB non-magical class.
I'm not sure if we're supposed to consider the UC rogue a fill in for that spot yet again, but it's really the only mechanical version of that specific archetype (non magical but non full BAB), and it's somewhat telling to me that we haven't seen another one. We have the vigilante coming up, but even that's not fully into the rogue's paradigm with its options, making it a hard comparison.
A lot of people (understandably) want a 3/4ths non-magical BAB character, I don't blame them, I'd love to see one that was guide-worthy, but there isn't. As stated before, most of the UC talents, while better, still aren't up to where rage powers/discoveries/invest talents/etc are on the power scale, and that's the issue.
And the discoveries/invest talents/etc are also backed up by 6th level casting, meaning that if you were to make a new 3/4ths BAB non-magical class, the sum of those class features would have to at least come close to meeting the value of 6th level casting. Note that I say 'come close', not 'must meet and surpass.' I love my gunslinger even though it's a 5 level class for some of the options it opens up and its use of the multiclassing system, but it's T4 at best.
Personally I'm looking forward to the vigilante to see if the non casting versions of it (or even the casting version of it) is worth adding to the game which from a LOT of the buzz I've...
The sad thing is... those classes are heralded as being some of the most BALANCED CLASSES IN THE GAME. Its one thing to.compare to a wizard or something (cuz lolmagic), but when fairly recognized balanced.classes out do you regularly.,..
In a party with most six level casters, the rogue will often be overshadowed. Most of them do what the rogue does, but better, before they start using their spells. They might only overshadow parts of the rogue most of the time, but some of them really make the rogue obsolete. Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist is probably the best example, but the Investigator does a decent job all on its own.
The Unchained rogue is only as overshadowed as a fully archetyped out fighter in such a party. Martial master mutagen warrior eldtrich guardians or lore wardens can make for decent party members if their are no fullcasters.
Chained rogue is garbage and a liability to a party.
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I completely agree with you.
My post was to tackle those specific people who are saying "Don't Play". I can't say that the Rogue is mechanically on-par with the rest, because I don't believe it to be true. The Rogue is behind. But my point was that if anybody wants to play something that is inherently sub-par, they probably don't really care about being the most effective. And people shouldn't bash down on them and say BADWRONGFUN, they're not doing this to be an ass and to drag the party down. Unlike a Kobold Commoner, a Rogue can do things, even if sub-par, and does not deserve the status of "Don't Play". I do feel like that had to be said when there are some who expressed themselves otherwise.
So the point Pixie is asking here is "Is there a reason to play a rogue over any rogue substitute aside from name?"
I can actually say that there is, although it is not a strong reason, and that is partially the name, thus proving Pixie's point.
From a new player's perspective, something with the word 'rogue' on the tin will do what they want from a roguish character, this is the reason they pick it, because it is the class that due to the name of which should be capable of fulfilling the rogue like tropes that they want to emulate.
Alchemist/Inquisitor/Investigator/etc, while mechanically superior, do not have that name, and for a new player, the idea that a class with a different name can do the same thing as the class NAMED for that trope is quite hard to believe.
As someone who's helped a lot of new players in, I'll get a lot of "Really?" responses when I tell them that an alchemist is a better rogue than a rogue, it doesn't make sense to them. After playing it, they almost always agree with me, but there is that initial hump there to get them to trust me on this.
I think the thing is for this that the rogue class has all the basic tools there to BE a rogue, but they're all sub par. This is inverse to most other rogue substitutes where each one is more specialized in a certain TYPE of rogue. For example:
Bard=social rogue
Investigator=melee rogue
Inquisitor=ranged rogue
Alchemist=BEST ROGUE (I'm not biased at all)
And so on and so forth. The rogue class gives an umbrella to their ideas so that they don't have to look for a better option, they can always just assume that all of their ideas for a rogue are covered in that class. And they are, just poorly. To be a better rogue like character, you need some system mastery/awareness that some people don't develop for lack of caring or other reasons. And this is what makes people continue to flock to it. It's not really just the name, but the promise that the name makes to them for the options that are accessible to it.
There's also some people's ideas to avoid a magical class as well since it goes against their concept, but there are workarounds for that as I stated, it's more about a willingness to work with them.
No, I am asking, Why play the rogue?
I have yet to see any reason WHY rogue.
The funny thing is, the only reason it seems is purely for the name rogue.
For people who want to.play concepts: like say... a thief... it has been shown that rogue is almost never the best choice... or even a good choice. So many better options.
For people who like mechanics, again rogue is lacking all around.
All i can think of is the people who are stuck on names (ninjas MUST be eastern pajama wearers, ALL saMURAI come from Japan, wizards wear pointy hats and robes,ect.) ...
Unchained Rogue gets the mythical ability of dex to damage. Stealth skill unlock is Godly. A few others are also significant. You only get 4.
You can decrease a targets AC and their to hit against you by 8 (advance talent for two penalties), party only enjoys the minus 2.
There is actually a lot of stuff here that is not easily replicated (defensive roll not having a per day limit). Still weaker than tier 3s but not pointless next to them. I would put the UC rogue on par with slayers, swashbucklers, and gunslingers (who are all tier 4).