As a continuation to my current project of categorizing just how powerful each martial class can be in DPR, I'm attempting to expand into Cavalier next. Does anyone have a level-20 build, with each level advancements listed, they believe is the most powerful a Cavalier can achieve? Otherwise, any advise on how best to combine 'specific' class feature/feat combinations that are more effective? I know the basics, I have the guides, so I don't need a reiteration of things all martials already know. I'm looking either for builds (both/either archer/melee) or things that those of us who have played martials, but never a cavalier, may have missed.
No complete build, but you'd be wanting order of the sword for 'add his mount's Strength modifier to the damage roll, in addition to his own.' on a mounted charge. Goes best with a cavalier/mammoth rider, but should still be good single-classed.
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I don't have the time to post a complete build, but I can post a few of the details on a Cavalier 10 I created for this purpose. Feel free to take what ideas you need to make your own build better (or point out things that don't work!). I'm sure there are better ways to do it, but this is the best I could manage at Level 10. :/
Race: Aasimar (Angel-blooded)
Class: Cavalier 10 (beastmaster, gendarme) [Order of the Sword]
Statline: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 9, Cha 14
Feats: Mounted combat, Ride-by attack, Spirited Charge, Power attack, Wild Flanking, Combat expertise, Pack Flanking, Celestial Servant, Evolved Companion, Spirit's Gift (mammoth)
Traits: Fate's Favored, Dirty Fighter
Equipment: +1 courageous lance, amulet of mighty bearfists (menacing), belt of giant's strength +4, mammoth hide, horse(bear)master's saddle
Celestial Bear Mount's Str: 26
Highest Mounted Charge Damage Line: +1 courageous lance +26 (3d8+156/x3, +3d6)
Attack Mods: pack flanking, charge, power attack, banner
Damage Mods: +1 weapon (+1), challenge (+12), 2h strength (+12), power attack (+9), wild flanking (+9), mounted mastery (+8), mammoth hide (+3d6), spirited charge (x3), dirty fighter (+1)
top charger ? or steady DPR most of the times?
steady is small on a med mount.
top DPR is a theory game, but a cavalier mamaoth rider on a huge trex will do the trick.
Cycada: It looks similar to my own I was working on with the biggest difference being race. Did you choose Aasimar for its theme? I was thinking Suli for the Charisma/Strength combo that the level 15 Order offers (plus a +1d6 per strike in damage). Is there a reason for Aasimar?
666bender: Either/or. Probably best to do both, as well as an archer type. :)
Sphynx wrote: Cycada: It looks similar to my own I was working on with the biggest difference being race. Did you choose Aasimar for its theme? I was thinking Suli for the Charisma/Strength combo that the level 15 Order offers (plus a +1d6 per strike in damage). Is there a reason for Aasimar?
666bender: Either/or. Probably best to do both, as well as an archer type. :)
Aasimar allows the celestial mount feat, which is mostly thematic but I assume that smite could add to dpr. angel-blooded aasimar by itself is pretty solid, however. +2 str, +2 cha, no penalties, after all.
There may have been another reason, but I don't remember at this point. Maybe the imagery of a angelic being riding an angelic bear into battle just stuck in my head? Haha
Edit: I forgot to change the mislabeled archetype. Beastmaster = Beast Rider. My bad
Not a lot of Cavalier players it seems...
Is this because of a dependency on a mount, being situational in a game that could be dungeon crawling? Inherently weaker? Or maybe because it's like a cheap version of a Paladin?
(honest curiosity here, not trying to be insulting to anyone...)
I wasn't interested until the Ghost Rider archetype arrived...
Courageous Lance doesn't work like this actually anymore. Because reasons.
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Coordinated Charge and Order of the Sword are your staples. VMC Barbarian can be a solid way to add Rage and some Rage powers to your arsenal, allowing you to juice both mount and rider with Ferocious Mount. Going half-orc and grabbing the Beast Rider feat (not the archetype) can allow you to grab a pretty decent mount, like the triceratops, without giving up Supreme Charge or Transfixing Charge for Mammoth Rider.
Ok, I've been spending a lot of time on this, and have some comments and questions....
First, in regards to the Gendarme, I've opted against it because, basically all it does it takes my 3 Tactician Feats and 3 Bonus Feats for 7 bonus feats, but I lose my ability to grant my tactician feats out to my allies. All in all, not a great trade-off, particularly since I'd end up -having- to pick up feats I don't care about as a Gendarme (Improved Bull Rush and Unseat).
I also opted for Human in order to squeeze some of these important feats in at earlier levels (like needing Spirited by 3rd level).
I also opted for Tiger instead of Mammoth, though I appreciate the suggestion. Tigers are not quite as strong as the Mammoth, but they are also not "huge", meaning they allow more usage, and can squeeze into nearly any location that a human can, not to mention they get Pounce. I like the idea of having a teamwork member as a mount, as post-charge, they are still pouring out damage, and I gave the tiger all the same teamwork feats of the cavalier in order to assure those feats are always in place and not situational.
The questions though are about mounted charging... never played a game where there was a mounted charger, so am not sure about some things.
How does a Lance work with Power Attack, and is the Lance (a 2-handed weapon wielded in 1-hand) receiving the 1.5 for 2-handed or not?
Mounted Skirmisher gets all attacks on a charge, but are these all at the bonus damage from a charge (Cavalier's Mounted Mastery, Order of the Sword) thus allowing him to add his mount's strength to all base attacks?
Welcome to the confusing mess that probably doesn't actually work as written and nothing is intended. I think there's about half a dozen FAQs that are part of this, and some seem to give conflicting answers.
Lance gets 1.5 from power attack and str.
Mounted skirmisher may or may not work, as now both creatures charge for a charge and thus I'm not sure if you can opt to not charge. We have no idea if all attacks on a "pounce" get the +2 to attack rolls, but we do know that if you have "pounce" with a lance only the first gets the extra damage.
Doesnt spirited charge need 6 BAB?
Would 2 feats for an exotic mount like the pounce gryphon be worthwhile?
Spirited charge requires mounted combat, ride-by-attack, and 1 rank of ride. It can be taken as a 1st level feat by a human Dragoon.
EDIT - Or any fighter really. But I don't know why you wouldn't want Skill Focus (Ride) as well.
Thanks Pwn, that makes sense.
So, on the charge, my level 20 Cavalier with lance gets +52 / +211 Dmg?
ToHit: 20 (BAB) +6 (Challenged Charge), +3 (Knight's Challenge, Cha 16), +4 Charge, +5 Wpn enhancement, +5 Banner, +9 (Str Bonus)
Damage: +20 (Challenge, Cav Level), +3 (Knight's Challenge, Cha 16), +10 (Tiger's Str:30), +5 Wpn Enhancement, +9 (Str Bonus) = 47 * 4.5 (1.5 = Power Attack, + 2 = Spirited Lance Triple Damage)
On the first attack, and subsequent attacks (having dismounted as a free action, behind his companion for reach) only receive +20 (Challenge, Cav Level), +5 (Wpn Enhancement) + 9 (Str Bonus) = +34 * 1.5 (Power Attack) = +51
Is my math off?
Also, thinking about how to followup in next rounds (if you didn't successfully overrun/trample), something like; switch in the Falchion (Gauntlet of the Weaponmaster) and move in to flank with your companion...
Deighton Thrane wrote: Spirited charge requires mounted combat, ride-by-attack, and 1 rank of ride. It can be taken as a 1st level feat by a human Dragoon.
EDIT - Or any fighter really. But I don't know why you wouldn't want Skill Focus (Ride) as well.
You wouldn't want a Skill Focus (Ride) because your highest target is DC 20 (fast dismount), and that's for stuff that the relatively cheap Equestrian Belt will give you until you can afford the Belt of Strength/Con at which point your Ride should be high enough to not need it. DC 20 isn't that high for a class-skill with a mediocum of Dexterity and some dedication in skill point per-level until it's 19.
Insain Dragoon wrote: for an exotic mount like the pounce gryphon be worthwhile? I've been considering it, since the Griffon is also only "large", but I'm a bit feat-starved at the lower levels, and have a hard time picking it up before level 15. :/
Ummm, Mounted Combat, or more importantly Indomitable Mount work off your Ride skill, so Skill Focus Ride is very nice to have. Actually riding your mount should be an automatic beyond low levels, but you're going to want it so that you can roll a 60+ ride check to ignore attacks, or at least 30+ to ignore saves.
EDIT - Not saying it's mandatory, especially on a straight cavalier build. Just saying it's nice to have, and if you're playing a mounted fighter it's a pretty decent option.
You could go the route of a leadership based build. Basically interspersing leadership into standard damage based attacks. This would obviously require building multiple characters but it can be quite effective with the right team. I don't have time to write out the full build details (and I'm not sure I have then purely optimized) but it would end up being something like this:
Main character build has the standard stuff for what you're looking to do (charging as an example so spirited charge, ride-by attack etc.).
They then take the Squire feat and at level 7 gain the leadership feat.
Build the squire to compliment your main character (for me I was a charger with the squire being a Luring Cavalier). As for the followers, they won't be as helpful combat wise unless you really lead them well. My idea here is the squire, using their Greater banner at level 17 can give a team of fellow cavaliers coordinated charge and if the Squire is a half-orc they can give everyone Horde Charge.
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Sorry to burst your bubble, but the mounted skirmisher feat and spirited charge feat will not combo with each other, and it is due to a recent FAQ and charge rules.
Mounted Combat: When making a charge while mounted, which creature charges? The rider or the mount?
Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge. The mounted combat rules are a little unclear on this. Replace the third paragraph under the "Combat while Mounted" section on page 202 with the following text. Note that a "mounted charge" is synonymous with a "charge while mounted," and that when a lance is "when used from the back of a charging mount" it is during a mounted charge not when only the mount charges.
A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.
This change will be reflected in future printings of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook
Basically a mounted charge is considered a full round action and you only are able to make a single melee attack at the end of it, just like a normal charge. If you have your mount charge and you are mounted on it, you yourself can chose not to charge with it, but you do not gain any of the benefits because 'you' yourself are not charging. That means no mounted charge has taken place, which means no triple damage from a lance attack from the spirited charge feat. The only advantage the mounted skirmisher feat gives is that it allows your mount to take more than a 5-ft step and still lets you take a full round attack. You can not take a full round attack action if you charge because you are already doing a full round action by charging. There are exceptions to this rule like pounce and the mounted blade feat. Mounted Skirmisher is not pounce. And mounted charging does not equal 'your mount moves its speed or less.' They are considered two different types of movement by pathfinder rules. Here is a link to another board that is has been discussed on, it explains it in more detail.
That makes sense, thanks. Because you used a "Full Round" attack to charge (you as a unit, not as an individual), you've already used the Full Round, so don't have an option to make full attacks as well.
However, this also makes Mounted Skirmisher useless for a Cavalier. Anytime your mount moves more than a 5' step, it should obviously be to charge.
But just to verify.... the *4.5 is correct? Power Attack = 1.5, Triple damage - +3.0 = Spirited Power Attack Charge = x4.5 damage on the hit?
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Ranged cavalier:
(note, when each feat and piece of is taken/gotten is dependent on play style so I'm not sure how specific I can get as far as advancement goes but I'll do my best)
(Also I'm not sure if you want PFS legal equipment, I'll keep it first party but open to everything there)
Race-Anything that provides a racial dex bonus. Mine was a Dhampir but anything from a human to a Azata or Garuda-blooded Aasimar is fine.
Class-Cavalier
Archetype-Luring Cavalier
Order-Any (none of them are really good if you're doing a primarily ranged based cavalier build. Some do offer a benefit or two but they usually depend on the player)
Base stats (these are based on a 72 point system, adjust based on the stat system your game uses. The base stats can't go above 20 or below 7 but do include racial modifiers (Aasimar-Garuda Blooded)):
Str-20(+5)
Dex-22(+6)
Con-8(-1)
Int-7(-2)
Wis-7(-2)
Cha-10(0)
End game stats(does not include equipment based stat increases like the belt of physical perfection):
Str-22(+6)
Dex-24(+7)
Con-8(-1)
Int-7(-2)
Wis-8(-1)
Cha-12(1)
(The additions can be applied solely to STR for a score of 24 but keep in mind that is you can't hit, you can't do the damage so I went with a +2 Str, +2 Dex)
Feats 13 total (note-These feats are not in perfect order and the order depends partly on play style)
Standard feats:
Point blank shot
Dodge
Rapid shot
Manyshot
Deadly aim
Precise shot
Clustered Shots
Chain Challenge
Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Improved Critical (Longbow)
Mounted Archery (or improved initiative, depending on preference)
Critical Focus
Bleeding Critical
Teamwork feats gained by Tactician
Escape Artist
Coordinated Shot
Enfilading fire (or Covering fire if you want to help the team more then yourself)
Mount
Horse
Archetype-Bodyguard (with a ranged character you won't be attacking with your mount nearly as much so go full protector instead)
Feats:
Toughness
Combat Reflexes
Bodyguard
In Harms Way
Mobility
Combat Patrol
Dodge
Blind fight (although scent could replace this so run or one of the feats that improves saving throws works too)
(equipment can alter greatly depending on how generous or stingy your GM is. Some pieces of equipment are more important than others so make the best judgment call depending on your game)
Equipment
Armor:
+5 Darkwood buckler (arrow catching (you'll be at a distance so this is to protect from fellow archers), moderate fortification, determination)
+5 Mithral mistmail (or normal chainmail to reduce cost) (Dastard or Champion depending on alignment, bolstering, jousting (if you think ride checks will be a problem))
Mount Armor:
+5 Boneless Leather (deathless, stanching, Moderate Fortification, determination)
(the armor ability enhancements aren't as important so they can be bought and added as an endgame goal after getting the main stuff)
Weapons:
+5 Composite Longbow (+whatever str) (Adaptive, flaming, frost, corrosive, shock, valiant)
+5 Cestus (Dueling, Guarding, Defending)
(dueling in the main property you want here for the initiative boost)
Other equipment:
+6 Belt of Physical Perfection (this is the obvious end game goal but if it's too expensive then a +6 Str/Dex Belt of Physical Might will do)
+6 Headband of Mental Superiority (again, obvious end goal but otherwise the Headband of Alluring Charisma is the replacement)
Silver Nocking Point (why go through the effort of building this if someone's just going to put up a level 3 spell and ruin it?)
Greater Bracers of Archery (Vambraces of the Tactician work too but aren't as good overall)
Champion's Banner
Amulet of Hidden Strength
+5 Cloak of Resistance
Stags helm or Helm of teleportation (if an issue arises you can escape)
Haunted shoes (optional, the concealment is useful) or Boots of Teleportation (if an issue arises you can escape)
Coat, Resplendent Uniform (optional, helps with tactician)
Rings:
+5 Ring of Protection
Ring of Evasion
Mount equipment:
Horsemaster's Saddle
Hand of Glory or +5 Amulet of Natural Armor (the hang of glory is preferred if things tend to attack you more because Natural Armor means nothing with an automatic hit)
+5 Cloak of Resistance
Ring of recovery (if you get the hand of Glory. You can also get rid of staunching on the armor with this)
Sipping jacket (useful for healing your steed) or Unfettered Shirt (useful for escaping) both optional
Cap of the Free Thinker (optional, who needs a mount that's been dominated?)
Headband of Deathless devotion or Band of the Stalwart Warrior (one provides a resistance to things like dominate, the other helps against fear, your choice) both are optional
Horseshoes of Glory (optional, the damage reduction is what you want)
Now that we're all set up and protected, it's time for the fun stuff, the attack and damage rolls:
At level 20 while within 30 ft of your opponent using deadly aim and rapid shot with a dex belt, Amulet of Hidden Strength and the Bracers of Archery, your attack rolls should look something like this:
26(hits twice)/26/26/21/16/11
That's 7 hits. It's a long-shot to get all of them but it's possible. Assuming you do (without criting) you're getting an average damage of (assuming you have the strength belt):
Strength-9
Challenge-24
Bracers of Archery-1
Within 30 ft-1
Standard Weapon damage roll-1d8
Enhancments-1d6 flaming, 1d6 shock, 1d6 corrosive, 1d6 frost, 1d6 extra when challenging
All x7
total damage: 7d8 + 35d6 + 245 ⇒ (4, 3, 3, 8, 4, 7, 7) + (3, 2, 4, 3, 5, 3, 2, 4, 3, 2, 3, 3, 6, 2, 6, 4, 4, 6, 2, 2, 5, 4, 4, 6, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 5, 6, 2, 5, 5) + 245 = 405
With an average total of 399 (divided up for DR as 301 piercing 24 fire, 24 frost, 24 acid and 24 shock)
Any damage reduction should only apply once assuming it isn't overcome with your equipment.
The damage would go up by 7 if you put your stat boots purely into strength. It's also possible that I missed some wondrous items so it there is something better for the build then use that. The feats can be done in a number of ways, this was done with the intention of maximizing damage but also protecting the rider. Criting wasn't added and will of course increase the number above but a decent amount while also adding bleed. Other factors will apply.
Also, I've already factored in a speed weapon and it reduces the total average damage by 27.
Sphynx wrote: That makes sense, thanks. Because you used a "Full Round" attack to charge (you as a unit, not as an individual), you've already used the Full Round, so don't have an option to make full attacks as well.
However, this also makes Mounted Skirmisher useless for a Cavalier. Anytime your mount moves more than a 5' step, it should obviously be to charge.
But just to verify.... the *4.5 is correct? Power Attack = 1.5, Triple damage - +3.0 = Spirited Power Attack Charge = x4.5 damage on the hit?
Only advantage you get from mounted skirmisher is that you basically get to move more than a 5ft step and still make a full round attack. This gives you mobility, which even regular characters cannot take a full round action attack after have moved more than 5 ft. That is the advantage of the feat, although you will not see it overtake spirited charge damage potentially until you get your 4th attack and 5th attack as your BAB gets higher. That is why you can not take it until later lvls because of the prerequisites, although you can get around this and get it much earlier, like for example taking 1 lvl dip into the sohei monk. But what is the point you will not see the benefits until a much later lvl.
This makes the mounted character pc still stay relevant at later lvls. although all the bonuses you get for charging from the cavalier class aside from the spirited charge feat chain, make this point moot. If your playing a cavalier class then charging is the way to go.
And as for Power Attack, it is an additive to your total base damage. The amount of bonus you get from the feat is based on your BAB and what kind of weapon you wield and how many hands you are using to wield it. It does not multiply any thing. Only spirited charge feat will multiply your total base damage by 3. And for additional info, if you have any other source that multiplies your base damage like spirited charge does, be sure to subtract one from each additional multiplier. For example lets say you confirm a critical on a spirited charge lance attack. Most new players thing it would be 3(spirited charge) + 3(critical damage multpiler) = 6 totaled multiplied damage. That is not true, it would be 3 + (3-1) = 5 totaled multiplied damage. Keep in mind when you have more than one source that multiplies your damage, always add them, and be sure to subtract one from each additional source that multiplies damage beyond the first. Here is the ruling for it.
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
I made a couple of boo-boo's here, whoops.
The base charisma stat should be 12, not 10
The armor for your character should probably be Catskin Leather instead. Alternatively, since it doesn't appear to be made of Mithral already, you could go with Mithral Celestial Armor which gives you just enough of a max dex bonus to fully utilize all of the dex you have with this build.
I should also note that with the Vambraces of the Tactician, you would get an extra 7 on the final average damage.
swordfalcon wrote:
And as for Power Attack, it is an additive to your total base damage. The amount of bonus you get from the feat is based on your BAB and what kind of weapon you wield and how many hands you are using to wield it. It does not multiply any thing. Only spirited charge feat will multiply your total base damage by 3. And for additional info, if you have any other source that multiplies your base damage like spirited charge does, be sure to subtract one from each additional multiplier.
I'm sorry, I worded my question poorly. I was referring to the Strength modifier, not Power Attack (Power Attack was just in my head while I was asking because I was thinking that I'd forgotten to add the +8 from it).
Lance is a 2-handed weapon, so qualifies for the Strength * 1.5? Or is it intended to be strength bonus, un-multiplied? Or is the *1.5 being "modified" to *2 instead of *1.5 (or *3 for Spirited)?
I currently interpret it to mean that they stack making it *4.5 (*3 from Spirited, 1.5 from Strength Modifier on a 2-handed melee weapon).
Michael Grate wrote: I made a couple of boo-boo's here, whoops.
The base charisma stat should be 12, not 10
The armor for your character should probably be Catskin Leather instead. Alternatively, since it doesn't appear to be made of Mithral already, you could go with Mithral Celestial Armor which gives you just enough of a max dex bonus to fully utilize all of the dex you have with this build.
I should also note that with the Vambraces of the Tactician, you would get an extra 7 on the final average damage.
Thanks Michael, an actual build is exactly what I keep hoping for. I'll make sure to mention it was built by you on the page itself. :)
Sphynx wrote: Michael Grate wrote: I made a couple of boo-boo's here, whoops.
The base charisma stat should be 12, not 10
The armor for your character should probably be Catskin Leather instead. Alternatively, since it doesn't appear to be made of Mithral already, you could go with Mithral Celestial Armor which gives you just enough of a max dex bonus to fully utilize all of the dex you have with this build.
I should also note that with the Vambraces of the Tactician, you would get an extra 7 on the final average damage.
Thanks Michael, an actual build is exactly what I keep hoping for. I'll make sure to mention it was built by you on the page itself. :) Thanks
I made another boo-boo though. The total damage should be increased by 119, I forgot to add in the +5 weapon enhancement and Deadly Aim for the damage, all to piercing.
This brings the average up to 518 assuming all attacks hit (or what is known as a metric f#$%-ton of damage)
That's ok, my system will auto-calculate it, I don't manually fill in calculations, but I'll let you know when it's posted, so you can compare numbers and we can see if/where I am off. :)
Sphynx wrote: That's ok, my system will auto-calculate it, I don't manually fill in calculations, but I'll let you know when it's posted, so you can compare numbers and we can see if/where I am off. :) Sounds good.
I'm working on a pure charge based build and one based on the rider and steed attacking through full-attack actions together as well so those will be coming at some point too.
Also, an odd request, but when you mention me, can it just be as Mike? Thank you :)
One final thing for this build, if you choose to be human you can use the bonus feat and swap out one of the given feats (probably the mounted Archery) to be able to take a flying mount as per the Monstrous Mount and Monstrous mount mastery feats. Otherwise take Improved Precise Shot so you have a better chance to hit things. If you take the flying mount you can change Bling fight (or whatever you take) to Wing-over or Hover.
With the race I used you can take the favored class bonus each level which adds an extra 35 to the final damage when challenging for an even better 553.
What about the Dwarf FCB? Instead of challenge=level, challenge=1.5 level
My Self, you're misunderstanding it. Each 2 levels a dwarf gains and puts towards his FCB adds +1 damage (+1/2 per level is +1/2hp per level).
If it was actually half, by 20th level and putting his FCB into that each time, he'd be doing a challenge with x11 damage. :P
My Self wrote: What about the Dwarf FCB? Instead of challenge=level, challenge=1.5 level A dwarf would probably work better for an up front attacker. Their Con bonus makes them a little tankier so you could stand there and take more hits with a higher HP.
Sphynx wrote: My Self, you're misunderstanding it. Each 2 levels a dwarf gains and puts towards his FCB adds +1 damage (+1/2 per level is +1/2hp per level).
If it was actually half, by 20th level and putting his FCB into that each time, he'd be doing a challenge with x11 damage. :P
Well, I was assuming you take it every level, so you'd add +1/2 to damage each level on top of the 1 damage/level, so challenge amount ends up as 1.5/level instead of 1/level. Not multiplicative per level. Sorry if that was unclear.
Definitive final on the build above, if you use Mounted Archery then replace the blind-fight stuff with stable gallop for your mount.
Charge based Cavalier
Race-Anything that gives a racial strength boost. Recommended-Aasimar (Angel-blooded)
Class-Cavalier
Archetype-Gendarme for a pure mounted charge build, Emissary for a little more mobility (note-I believe there was an errata at some point that stated that Erratic Charge should replace Master Tactician and not Supreme charge thus making this viable but consult your GM first to make sure they’ll allow it).
You’ve stated that you are looking to keep the tactician ability though, so don’t archetype (maybe a strategist though this won’t improve the charge).
Order-Order of the Sword-Probably the best option because of Mounted Mastery
Order of the Cockatrice-Valid because it offers extra damage when threatening alone (mount not counted) as well as a similar level 15 bonus (A single round burst of everything whereas Knights challenge offers less for a longer period) but isn’t as good overall.
Order of the Flame-It’s Glorious Challenge is interesting and Foolhardy Rush helps quite a bit on charges but it doesn’t provide any damage boost like the two above.
Base stats (these are based on a 72 point system, adjust based on the stat system your game uses. The base stats can't go above 20 or below 7 but do include racial modifiers (Aasimar-Angel Blooded)
Str-22 (+6)
Dex-16 (+3)
Con-10 (0)
Wis-9 (-1)
Int-7 (-2)
Cha-12 (+1)
End Game Stats (doesn’t include boosts from items)
Str-26 (+8)
Dex-16 (+3)
Con-10 (0)
Wis-10 (0)
Int-7 (-2)
Cha-12 (+1)
(You can drop Cha by 2 points and put them into Con if you feel you want a little more HP)
(If you are able to get the Mammoth Lance (see equipment below) then you can reallocate the STR points (base and level granted) into CON and CHA as you see fit. CHA for temporary damage additions, CON for HP)
(alternatively, you can go as a full glass cannon with the following stats. It’s not recommended, especially if you can get the Mammoth Lance, but it’s an option)
Base
Str-22 (+6)
Dex-8 (-1)
Con-8 (-1)
Wis-9 (-1)
Int-7 (-2)
Cha-22 (+6)
End Game
Str-26 (+8)
Dex-8 (-1)
Con-8 (-1)
Wis-10 (0)
Int-7 (-2)
Cha-22 (+6)
Regardless of your choice, DEX should be at 16 because, with the Snakeskin Tunic, it will top out at 18 which is also the max dex bonus of the Mammoth Hide armor.
Take the Favored Class bonus each level for a total of +5 on your challenge damage at level 20.
Feats-13 total (note-These feats are not in order and the order will depend partly on your individual playstyle)
Mounted Combat
Ride-by attack
Wheeling Charge
Spirited Charge
Horn of Criosphinx
Power attack
Furious Focus
Improved Initiative
Weapon Focus (Lance)
Improved Critical (Lance)
Critical Focus
Bleeding Critical
Mounted blade (situational, can be traded out if multiple adjacent enemies are uncommon in your game for whatever reason.)
Feat gained by Order of the Sword
Trample
Teamwork feats gained by Tactician
Escape Artist
Distracting Charge
Any (Coordinated Charge if your team tends to take charge actions as well)
Mount
Horse
Archetype-Charger
Feats:
Power Attack
Charge Through
Improved Overrun
Greater Overrun
Improved Natural Attack (2 Hooves)
Weapon Focus (Natural attack)
Improved Natural Armor
Dodge
Put all level up ability points into STR
(equipment can alter greatly depending on how generous or stingy your GM is. Some pieces of equipment are more important than others so make the best judgment call depending on your game)
Equipment
Armor
+5 Mammoth Hide (ISC) (Determination, Dastard or Champion depending on alignment, bolstering, Moderate Fortification, jousting (if you think ride checks will be a problem), stanching)
Mount Armor
+5 Barded Mammoth Hide (ISC) (Note-You mount isn’t proficient with medium armor. However, the Charger archetype has a class feature like the fighter’s armor training so there won’t be any penalties anyway) (Determination, Stanching, Moderate Fortification, burdenless)
Weapons
+5 Mammoth Hide (Note, I haven’t found this weapon anywhere other than this site and mentioned on a few random forums which is odd because according to the site it’s PFS legal. It’s possible that this weapon was from a previous version of the game and never made the conversion. Consult your GM) (Impact, valiant) (For the final +2 you can use two of the +1d6 enhancements for a sustained damage boost. For a burst type of bonus, take one of the burst enhancements)
+5 Cestus (Dueling, Guarding, Defending, Courageous)
(Dueling is the primary bonus you want)
+5 War Lance (Optional-buy if you can’t get the Mammoth Lance or if you want a backup) (Same enhancements)
Other Equipment
+6 Belt of Physical Might (STR, CON)
+6 Headband of Mental Superiority (endgame item, CHA is the important stat)
Champion’s Banner
Vambraces of the Tactician
Snake skin Tunic
Crashing Boots (note, like the Mammoth Lance, this is the only site that I can find that references this item, consult your GM)
Juggernaut’s Pauldrons (has a good general use but the enlarge person spell can’t be used without increasing your mounts size as well)
Caltrop Boots (optional, buy if your GM won’t allow the Crashing Boots. They are fun to use when charging)
Crusader’s Tabard (optional, as far as I can tell the only use would be to sneak attack with a charge)
Rings
Ring of Terrible Cost
Any
Ring of Splendid Security (Optional-End game goal)
Mount Equipment
Horsemaster's Saddle
+5 Horseshoes of Crushing Blows (all enhancement bonus for bypassing DR)
+5 Cloak of Resistance
Cap of the Free Thinker (optional, who needs a mount that's been dominated?)
Headband of Deathless devotion or Band of the Stalwart Warrior (one provides a resistance to things like dominate, the other helps against fear, your choice) both are optional
Unfettered Shirt (optional)
Alpha Charge equipment (Highest in effectiveness as a glass-cannon. These items generally have a charge time that makes them useless past their initial use in an encounter. Use with the Knight’s challenge or Moment of Triumph (if the Order of the Cockatrice was chosen). You may want to have replacement items for slotted equipment so you’re not wearing something that has no effect most of the time)
Cyclops Helm
Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess (mainly if it can be used by the Horse because your only benefit would be attack rolls. It requires a command word so ask your GM if you can speak the word for it)
Ring of Terrible Cost
Greater Dire Collar
Juggernaut’s Pauldrons
Now for the fun stuff, attack and damage rolls.
Attack rolls for your character
Assumes the endgame STR is 14 (20 with STR bonus from belt, 22 from using Juggernaut Pauldrons) and CHA is 24 (30 with Charisma bonus from a headband) because you have the Mammoth Lance and a Knight’s challenge is active. Assumes you don’t crit. Assumes target is large (most BBEG are size large or more)
BAB-20
STR-6
Weapon Focus-1
Order Challenge Bonus-7
Knight’s Challenge bonus-10
Weapon Enhancement Bonus-5
Crashing Boots-2
Cavaliers Charge-4
Mounts Demanding Challenge-1 (Charger’s Mounted Challenge, effectively grants a +1 to you and all allies when it’s threatening)
If you have a Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess-4
Furious Focus Negates Power attack Penalties
Size of Large-(-1)
Total-55 (59 with a Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess)
If the Mount hit first then add 2 (effective addition because of Distracting Charge)
Mount Attack Rolls
(note-I don’t believe the mount can benefit from the order portion of your challenge bonus with Mounted Challenge so those aren’t included. If it can then the total increases by 8). Assumes Greater Dire Collar is used (Mount is now Huge) and the Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess works. STR totals at 44 (with Greater Dire Collar and Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess)
BAB-12
STR-17
Weapon Focus-1
Weapon Enhancement bonus-5
Charge bonus-2
PC Demanding challenge-2 (Effective bonus, actually a negative to enemy’s AC)
Size of huge-(-2)
Power Attack-(-4)
Total 33
If the PC hit first then add 2 (effective addition because of Distracting Charge)
Damage rolls for your character
3.5x Mounts STR (Dire Collar in effect and assuming the Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess can be used. Also active are the Mammoth Lance, Mounted Mastery, Horn of Criosphinx and Power Attack)-17 base, 59 total
Power Attack-12
Ring of Terrible Cost-5
Weapon Enhancement-5
Base Challenge Bonus-31
Knight’s Challenge Bonus-10
Spirited Charge and Supreme Charge-4x
Total-488
Crit, total-732
Dice Rolls (Burst used)
Impact and Enlarge Person (effectively huge)-3d6 (4x so 12d6 total, Crit. 18d6)
Mammoth Hide-4d6
Flaming Burst (any)-1d6 Flaming, (Crit. 2d10 Flaming Burst)
Valiant-1d6
(Crit.-2d6 bleed)
Total Average-63 (60 piercing, 3 fire)
Crit. Total average-95 (81 piercing, 14 fire)
Overall total PC average-531
Overall crit. total PC average-797+2d6 bleed
Mount base Damage
STR with power attack-25
Power attack-8
Weapon Enhancement-5
Challenge Bonus-15 (if Order bonus can be added then add an extra 5)
Total-53
Crit. Total-106
Mount Dice Rolls
Standard-2d6 (Improved Natural Weapon and Huge)
Mammoth Hide-4d6
Total Average-21
Crit. Total Average-42
Overall total mount average-74
Overall crit. total mount average-148
Note-There may be some things I missed. If you take the human then you can add any extra feat you want. You can replace Mounted Blade and another level up feat (take it as the human bonus feat) to get a Monstrous Mount and the Mythic advancement (not recommended because of a lowered STR score). You can also look into getting a mount with a better STR score to increase the damage output. Other races like the Dwarf with it's favorite class bonus (taken all 20 levels) or something that offers a better CHA bonus would work better in this case
I’ve only included the stats/choices that determine damage on charge. Feel free to fill in the blanks with w/e
Half Orc Cavalier 20 (Beast Rider, Gendarme)
Large Humanoid (dwarf, human, orc)
Racial Traits: toothy
Traits: dirty fighter
Favored Class Bonus: Dwarf 20 (+10 to challenge damage)
Active effects: enlarge person (pauldrons)
Base Stats: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 9, Cha 18
End Stats: Str 24 (+7), Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 28 (+9)
Feats: critical focus, improved critical (lance), weapon focus (lance), mounted combat, spirited charge, wild flanking, pack flanking, horde charge, snapping flank, horn of the criosphinx, ride-by attack, power attack, furious focus, spirit’s gift, evolved companion (bite), racial heritage (dwarf) (taken at 1st level),
Gear: +5 courageous impact mammoth lance, headband of cha +6, belt of str +6, mammoth hide, juggernaut's pauldrons, horsemaster’s saddle
Animal Gear: menacing amulet of mighty fists, mammoth hide barding, greater dire collar, permanency greater magic fang +5
Animal Companion: Huge Bear (charger) 20
Animal Base Stats: Str 41 (+15), Dex 17
Animal Active Effects: Animal Growth (greater collar), spirit animal (mammoth) (spirit’s gift)
Attack Routines:
Knight’s challenge on previous turn. Activate buffs on previous turn. Charge from back of bear. Rider gets lance attack. Bear gets bite attack. Snapping flank activates for both. Rider gets bite attack. Bear gets bite attack.
Charging lance attack calculations:
TOTAL +60
----------------------
BaB +20
Str +7
Weapon Focus +1
Cha +9 (Knight’s challenge)
Weapon +5
Flanking +4 (+2, +2 menacing bear weapon)
Charge +6 (+2, +2 Cavalier’s Charge, +2 Horde Charge)
OotS Challenge +8 (+6 base, +2 courageous weapon)
Power attack -0 (ferocious focus)
High ground +1
Size -1 (large)
Charging lance damage calculations:
TOTAL 12d6+3d6+512, avg 564.5, crit 1,032.5
----------------------------------
Base 3d6 (large lance, impact, 19-20/x4 crit)
Mammoth hide +3d6
Mount’s Str x2 +30 (mammoth lance, horn of the criosphinx)
Mount’s Str +15 (mounted mastery)
Cha +9 (knight’s challenge)
Challenge +30 (dwarf racial favored, challenge)
Power attack +18
Wild flanking +18
Charge +2 (horde charge)
Weapon +5
Trait +1
Supreme Charge x4
Mount Charging Bite Attack Calculation
TOTAL +40
---------------------------------------
BaB +12
Size -2
Str +15
Charge +4 (+2, +2 horde’s charge_
Banner +4
Weapon +5
Flanking +2
Power attack -0 (furious focus)
Mount Charging Bite Damage Calculation
TOTAL 3d6+3d6+68
----------------------------------------
Base 3d6 (Huge bear, evolved bite)
Mammoth hide +3d6
Str (x1.5) +22 (evolved bite)
Charger Challenge +15
Charge +2 (horde’s charge)
Power Attack +12
Wild Flanking +12
Weapon +5
After all that, you then have a swift action bite attack from both the Rider (Toothy half-orc) and the bear mount, both of which will do considerable damage from the challenge bonuses.
Let me know if I was unclear with how I worked anything out above. I’m pretty sure my calculations are fairly accurate.
I've been kicking around an idea for a Dwarf Beast Rider Cavalier with a one level dip into Primal Companion Hunter. The idea was to get a Bear mount large enough to ride, and the Hunter dip would allow a one minute per day ability to grant the mount Pounce and Rend (or maybe Improve Damage on both bite and claws). The Dwarf FCB would give a great bonus to damage (+9) to targets of the challenge at max level with the dip.
Saldiven wrote: I've been kicking around an idea for a Dwarf Beast Rider Cavalier with a one level dip into Primal Companion Hunter. The idea was to get a Bear mount large enough to ride, and the Hunter dip would allow a one minute per day ability to grant the mount Pounce and Rend (or maybe Improve Damage on both bite and claws). The Dwarf FCB would give a great bonus to damage (+9) to targets of the challenge at max level with the dip. Unfortunately, if you're looking at level 20 builds, by dipping you are losing out on a 2x damage bonus from the capstone cavalier ability. :(
Cycada wrote: Saldiven wrote: I've been kicking around an idea for a Dwarf Beast Rider Cavalier with a one level dip into Primal Companion Hunter. The idea was to get a Bear mount large enough to ride, and the Hunter dip would allow a one minute per day ability to grant the mount Pounce and Rend (or maybe Improve Damage on both bite and claws). The Dwarf FCB would give a great bonus to damage (+9) to targets of the challenge at max level with the dip. Unfortunately, if you're looking at level 20 builds, by dipping you are losing out on a 2x damage bonus from the capstone cavalier ability. :( I'd have to run the numbers to be sure, but I think it would be balanced out by having two extra attacks from the mount. Spirited Charge with a Lance already does 3xdamage, and pretty much every Cavalier would take that Feat. The capstone, assuming it works normally like other damage multipliers, would make Spirited Charge + Lance + Supreme Charge 4xdmg.
Assuming that's correct, I think the extra damage from the additional mount attacks should at least balance out. Even if it didn't balance out at level 20, it would likely be superior in damage output at every prior level.
Saldiven wrote: Cycada wrote: Saldiven wrote: I've been kicking around an idea for a Dwarf Beast Rider Cavalier with a one level dip into Primal Companion Hunter. The idea was to get a Bear mount large enough to ride, and the Hunter dip would allow a one minute per day ability to grant the mount Pounce and Rend (or maybe Improve Damage on both bite and claws). The Dwarf FCB would give a great bonus to damage (+9) to targets of the challenge at max level with the dip. Unfortunately, if you're looking at level 20 builds, by dipping you are losing out on a 2x damage bonus from the capstone cavalier ability. :( I'd have to run the numbers to be sure, but I think it would be balanced out by having two extra attacks from the mount. Spirited Charge with a Lance already does 3xdamage, and pretty much every Cavalier would take that Feat. The capstone, assuming it works normally like other damage multipliers, would make Spirited Charge + Lance + Supreme Charge 4xdmg.
Assuming that's correct, I think the extra damage from the additional mount attacks should at least balance out. Even if it didn't balance out at level 20, it would likely be superior in damage output at every prior level. I haven't done the numbers yet for your specific build so I'm not sure of its overall effectiveness. Also, are you looking specifically for a bear or just something with pounce? If it's just something with pounce then the dip becomes unnecessary.
While none of the animal companions have both pounce and rend, 5 of them gain pounce as a level 7 advancement and 3 of them can be taken by a medium sized beast rider. They are the Allosaurus, the Big Cat and the Warcat. Given the build above, the Allosaurus is the best choice because it will end up with the highest STR. Plus you can combine the Beast Rider and Gendarme archetypes to get the Allosaurus and the Transfixing Charge.
For the Allosaurus build you can change the saddle to the +6 Belt of Physical Perfection (or at least +6 Giants Strength) (this will increase damage output significantly but you will take a -5 on ride checks so be careful with this opton), your mounts improved natural attack should be for one of the new attacks it has, you can trade improved natural armor for a second improved natural attack and you won't be able to use the horseshoes of crushing blows. Keep the dire collar because it's damage output when enlarging your mount is much better than the Amulet of Mighty Fists (of course the AoMF gives sustained damage so you can use it as a backup for after you use up the Dire Collar's effect)
Cycada wrote: I’ve only included the stats/choices that determine damage on charge. Feel free to fill in the blanks with w/e
Half Orc Cavalier 20 (Beast Rider, Gendarme)
Large Humanoid (dwarf, human, orc)
Racial Traits: toothy
Traits: dirty fighter
Favored Class Bonus: Dwarf 20 (+10 to challenge damage)
Active effects: enlarge person (pauldrons)
Base Stats: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 9, Cha 18
End Stats: Str 24 (+7), Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 28 (+9)
Feats: critical focus, improved critical (lance), weapon focus (lance), mounted combat, spirited charge, wild flanking, pack flanking, horde charge, snapping flank, horn of the criosphinx, ride-by attack, power attack, furious focus, spirit’s gift, evolved companion (bite), racial heritage (dwarf) (taken at 1st level),
Gear: +5 courageous impact mammoth lance, headband of cha +6, belt of str +6, mammoth hide, juggernaut's pauldrons, horsemaster’s saddle
Animal Gear: menacing amulet of mighty fists, mammoth hide barding, greater dire collar, permanency greater magic fang +5
This is a nice looking build.
There are a couple of things I'm confused about though. The Greater Dire Collar and the AoMF are both neck slot items so I don't think they can be used together. You also seem to be adding in bonuses from two different races (Dwarf-FCB, Half-Orc-Toothy racial trait and Horde Charge). I see you used the Racial Heritage feat for the Dwarven part, but what about the Half-Orc part?
Also you can add in the Inspiring Rush trait along with the what you have (I believe you would need to take a drawback) which gives you a +1 to attack and damage rolls on a charge once per day.
Cycada wrote: TOTAL 12d6+3d6+512, avg 564.5, crit 1,032.5
----------------------------------
Base 3d6 (large lance, impact, 19-20/x4 crit)
Mammoth hide +3d6...
Also, what is giving your lance a 4x critical multiplier?
Just an FYi, the lack of work on the page is because I am schooling this weak for a certification insomething. Next week I will have some of these builds done on the website. :)
Hmm. Bit of a variant exercise, what about for PFS? Caps at level 11, and rather restrictive on mount types.
I'm actually questioning the usefulness of Cavalier for getting the mount. Going Hunter instead will get you a much larger list of mounts until you can take beast-rider at level 7, and the desert archetype can give a bonus on charges.
4 levels of rogue with Scout and Skulking slayer will give you an extra 2d8 sneak attack whenever you charge. You can even throw in a level of Brawler with Snakebite Striker for another die of sneak attack at full BAB or with Wild Child for another AC level with full BAB. Will definitely need Boon Companion though.
One level of Fighter (Dragoon) doesn't seem bad either.
Give the mount Nimble Frame of course, then Unarmed Strike as a prereq and Dragon Style (4th level point raises int to 3) - now you're not limited by difficult terrain or allies.
A certain scenario will net even the cavalier an Axe Beak companion - one of very few large companions with a Reach attack. Now it can attack from the same spot you can, and gets around a lot of the questions regarding the charge stopping when the lance can hit but the mount can't attack yet.
I don't think PFS allows the unique armor as barding, so no mammoth hide for the mount, but yes for you. The mammoth hide from Inner Sea Combat isn't allowed, but the lesser variant in Melee Tactics Toolbox is, even if the armor value isn't great.
Does a Belt of Thunderous Charging's weapon size increase stack with the impact weapon quality? Even if it doesn't, one for the mount sounds good.
Problem with a mammoth lance and mounted mastery; adding the same ability modifier twice is forbidden by FAQ. It actually works better without one of these as then you're adding two different strength modifiers and they stack.
Michael Grate wrote: You also seem to be adding in bonuses from two different races (Dwarf-FCB, Half-Orc-Toothy racial trait and Horde Charge). I see you used the Racial Heritage feat for the Dwarven part, but what about the Half-Orc part? Disregard this race part, I figured out the answer.
Sphynx wrote: Just an FYi, the lack of work on the page is because I am schooling this weak for a certification insomething. Next week I will have some of these builds done on the website. :) Alright enjoy. I'm working on a front-line attacker in the meantime.
thistledown wrote:
Hmm. This is an interesting one. I've never played PFS (in truth I'm a very new player who's addicted to the Min/Max). I'll have to look into build concepts for this.
As far as the belt and impact though, your doppelgänger posted about this and it seems to be a no. As far as replacing the saddle or a strength belt with this, I'm not so sure of how good of an option that would be. Since I don't think the charging benefits apply past the first attack (using a barbarians rage to get pounce and useing it mounted with spirited charge was denied for example)
The Belt of Thunderous Charging gives 2 STR (+1) and gives then damage of a weapon 1 size category large larger (+3.5 average dice roll). The total extra damage is 4
The STR belts give 6 STR (+3). The total extra damage is 3 which lower than the Thunderous charging belt, except that the strength is added twice (once from Mounted Mastery and once for the mounts own attack, it could be 4 times but the FAQ avr posted said no).
avr wrote:
Well that sucks. I guess just replace the lance then. You would have to worry about personal STR more but the overall build isn't much different.
I'll have to look through it again and redo some numbers (I'm about to sleep so I don't have time now) but it might be more beneficial to use a different Order then, probably the Order of the Cockatrice. They offer similar benefits at level 15, the order gives more extra damage so long as you are the only one threatening the enemy (mount excluded). It likely depends on how much stronger your mount is than your character but I believe in certain cases it would be better to use your mounts strength in place of your own.
Michael Grate wrote:
I haven't done the numbers yet for your specific build so I'm not sure of its overall effectiveness. Also, are you looking specifically for a bear or just something with pounce? If it's just something with pounce then the dip becomes unnecessary.
The point was to take a strong mount with multiple attacks that doesn't normally have Pounce and to give it that ability through access to the Eidolon upgrades.
Though, there might very well be some high strength mounts out there that already have Pounce and enough multiple attacks that a dip wouldn't be necessary.
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