Ok, making a potential character for Way of the Wicked AP. (PLEASE DON'T SPOIL ANYTHING IN THE AP FOR ME.)
I have the personality and background worked out.
Definitely want it to be a caster. Also want lots of skill points for things like the knowledge skills, bluff, sense motive, disguise, stealth, perception, etc... So an intelligence caster. The sneaky conniving aspect is at least as important as the casting.
So my initial thought is a rogue/arcanist or rogue/sorc(sage) heading toward arcane trickster. The fluff and some of the abilities of the arcane trickster (ranged legerdemain and sneak attack to ray spells) really seem to fit the concept I have in my head.
However, you constantly read everyone bashing the arcane trickster (I have never tried one or seen one tried). It is underwhelming, it can't compete, it doesn't work, etc... I don't want to be an anchor for the group.
So I'm looking for other ideas for a sneaky caster. I can fairly easily adjust my background and personality if some other sneaky caster build will work much better.
OR
Are people exaggerating the issues and an arcane trickster will work just fine if I am careful?
What thoughts or insights can you give me?
Why go rogue at all?
Are you wanting full 9th level casting class, or would a 6th level casting class work for you?
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Some non-obvious sneaky magic types that have nothing to do with arcane trickster:
Nature Fang Druid with the Monkey Domain.
Several Bard archetypes work here.
Aether-kineticist.
Investigator (Esp. Psychic Detective).
If you do decide to go Arcane Trickster, there is a feat in the Dirty Tactics Toolbox that will allow you to add 1d6 to a sneak attack. This will let you qualify for Arcane Trickster with only a single Rogue/Brawler/Vivisectionist level.
Why go rogue at all?
Are you wanting full 9th level casting class, or would a 6th level casting class work for you?
Even an intelligence caster usually doesn't have enough skill points to be really conniving. At least not until they get to pretty high levels when they no longer matter all that much anymore.
I'm not that worried about the very end of the campaign. I've seen very few high level character that can't contribute very significantly to most situations.
Very low levels is mostly careful playing and luck more than build for casters.
Issues (if any) are usually in the midlevel ranges. Like 4-9 or so.
So yes, if it will otherwise do what I need, a 6th level casting class will be fine. I would assume you are talking about the summoner. A lot of GM's don't like the summoner class. I will see if he is ok with it or maybe with the unchained version.
If you meant the inquisitor... Hmm... Not sure. I had not imagined this character as a divine caster. I will have to think about it.
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Some non-obvious sneaky magic types that have nothing to do with arcane trickster:
Nature Fang Druid with the Monkey Domain.
Several Bard archetypes work here.
Aether-kineticist.
Investigator (Esp. Psychic Detective).If you do decide to go Arcane Trickster, there is a feat in the Dirty Tactics Toolbox that will allow you to add 1d6 to a sneak attack. This will let you qualify for Arcane Trickster with only a single Rogue/Brawler/Vivisectionist level.
Don't know anything about the kineticist since I don't have the book. I'm already running an investigator in another campaign, so I don't think I want 2 of them. I'm not a huge fan of bards though I can see it might work well for this. I might reconsider.
Druid had not really occurred to me. It would be difficult to get enough skill points though the shape changing works with the concept. Not sure how well druid works with what I've read of the player's guide so far though.
I played a Sylph Air Wizard for a long long time, it was a blast and very stealthy. Highlander Trait, +4 Racial bonus to Stealth and spells like Vanish, Invis... he was pretty impossible to see.
An alchemist or investigator can be plenty sneaky when casting, they're int-based casters with 4 or 6 base skill points, and an alchemist gets bombs which match an AT's rays or full sneak attack. An investigator is just absurdly good with skills; check out the archetypes too.
A psychic from occult adventures casts with thought and emotion rather than verbal and somatic components, and it's a 9-level int caster. Manipulating things telekinetically is something they do. Zapping things isn't their best schtick though.
But yeah, given that you can take AT with just 2 levels in non-spellcasting classes it's doable. Magical Knack trait, rogue 1/snakebite striker brawler 1/{wizard 3 or arcanist 4 or sorc 4} is a reasonable character.
My main ones were actually Archeologist bard it makes it more of a rogue with spells instead of sneak attack, investigator, alchemist for the 6th. I'm not a fan of the summoner.
For full there's just normal wizard, sage sorcerer, or arcanist as int casters.
I always forget about witches, they are another class I don't find all that interesting. And I didn't list the Psychic since he didn't have the book and that seems to be a limiting factor to him.
Honestly, I think a sneaky caster works fine if you are allowed to use Variant Multiclassing rules and have access to the new Dirty Trick's Handbook. You can make a full caster with access to Rogue goodies without delaying spell levels at all. You're pretty blaster-focused with a build like this to make use of all those Sneak Attack die, but I spose you could try to slap things with a weapon. Not my first recommendation. Either way, you should have plenty of spell slots for utility spells, too. You'll be pretty feat starved, but you can make do.
The reason that everyone bashes the Arcane Trickster is because there are several better ways to do this. If you are more interested in the sneaky part and less emphasis on combat then the Archeologist bard is probably your best bet. Archeologist luck stacks with Heroism, which bards get early for some really impressive bonuses to just about everything. Add in they also add half their level to all knowledge skills, disable device and perception makes them one of the best skill based characters in the game. Their spell list is almost tailored to the role of a magical thief. How do you stop an invisible teleporting thief who can become gaseous?
If you want to play a divine caster an inquisitor actually works will for a sneaky caster. Maybe a Inquisitor of Norgober with the Heresy Inquisition would work well. If you take the Sanctified Slayer archetype this makes a very good assassin type character. He also gets +1/2 his level to intimidate, sense motive and to track. With improved monster lore you get your WIS, and INT +1/2 your level to identify monsters.
Most spells across all casting classes have a verbal component, so picking up a metamagic silent rod and preparing a few silenced spells will probably be a necessity. I've done the sneaky bard deal before and it's a lot of fun, however I tended to use misdirection and illusions over cloak and dagger stealth most of the time. Ventriloquism is a very useful spell in that regard.
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Most spells across all casting classes have a verbal component, so picking up a metamagic silent rod and preparing a few silenced spells will probably be a necessity. I've done the sneaky bard deal before and it's a lot of fun, however I tended to use misdirection and illusions over cloak and dagger stealth most of the time. Ventriloquism is a very useful spell in that regard.
Except - bards can't cast anything with a Silenced spell.
A bard casts arcane spells drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class (DC) for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.
Well...
My investigator in the other campaign just croaked. So that is no longer a complication.
Alchemist is a great class, but bombs are not exactly sneaky.
I don't like to play just off the online resources. I love those for the ease of searching and stuff, but I feel like I should have the books for anything I'm going to use for anything significant. It's one of the ways I make sure I support this producers of this excellent hobby.
Unfortunately, that particular book isn't on my list for the near future.
I think right now the two leading options to me are investigator and archaeologist bard.
Any thoughts on which you guys think would be best from those two?
Well...
My investigator in the other campaign just croaked. So that is no longer a complication.Alchemist is a great class, but bombs are not exactly sneaky.
I don't like to play just off the online resources. I love those for the ease of searching and stuff, but I feel like I should have the books for anything I'm going to use for anything significant. It's one of the ways I make sure I support this producers of this excellent hobby.
Unfortunately, that particular book isn't on my list for the near future.I think right now the two leading options to me are investigator and archaeologist bard.
Any thoughts on which you guys think would be best from those two?
Vivisectionist Alchemist trades bombs for sneak attack.
If you absolutely want either Investigator or Archaeologist Bard though...
Investigator is something you have experience with, but the A. Bard is pretty much tailor made for the magical rogue thing. Read over both and make a personal choice at this point. You'll be great as either one.
Play a goblin witch.
While a bard does indeed require verbal components to all his spells, the feat spellsong allows him to cast a spell without anyone realizing he cast it. This is actually a lot more sneaky than casting a silenced spell. No other class can do this.
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Unchained Rogue 1 : That's all you need to get all the skills as class skills, along with disarming traps. All other levels in to your arcane class. The down side of arcane trickster is you lose 3 caster levels not just one. And it dose not advance your special ability's from school, hex, or arcanist exploits. Where as dipping one level dose hurt. It is not as harmful to your ability's over all.
Wizard : Is a good option but not the only one.
Witch : Can be the better option. Depending on how you work the hexes.
Arcanist : Is a good option as well. For what your doing it starts spreading your ability scores thin.
It was mentioned above, but I want to reiterate: Druid with Monkey Domain. get extra skill points via human and intelligence. I believe there is also a human only feat that gives you another skill point (in addition to the HP for favored class). ranged ledgerdomain, bonus to sneaky stuff, familiar to aid another. its good stuff.
@Bald Man: The feat is fast learner gives any 2 favorite class bonuses. 13 int prereq I think .. but starts off a fun line of feats.
Go full illusionist or shadow/umbral sorcerer (illusionist more skills, sorc no spellbook to have stolen/SLAs) ..... unless you think there is something a rogue can do that a illusionist/sorc cannot ?????
d. secret doors, invis, ventril..., cats grace, knock, imp invis, mirror image, minor image, dancing light, phantasmal killer, disguise self.....
You really don't need to go further than core based wizard(illusionist) to surpass a rogue in most ways by 3-5 level
Play wizard, choose a god, take evangelist prestige class. You will have a LOT of skill ranks, more hitpoints. But you will lose 1 caster lvl and have a bit worse will saves.
Ok, I've decided on a tiefling investigator. Not sure if I like the infiltrator or mastermind archtype better.
Male tiefling investigator (infiltrator) 2 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 30, 100, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 168)
LE Medium outsider (native)
Init +3; Senses all-around vision, darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +5
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Defense
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AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10 (+3 Dex)
hp 18 (2d8+4)
Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +3
Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Investigator (Infiltrator) Extracts Prepared (CL 2nd; concentration +6)
. . 1st—crafter's fortune[APG] (DC 15), disguise self, heightened awareness[ACG]
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 16
Feats Fiendish Facade
Traits campaign: Grave Robber, pragmatic activator
Skills Appraise +9, Bluff +6, Craft (alchemy) +8 (+10 to create alchemical items), Disable Device +6, Disguise +4 (+9 to impersonate Human), Escape Artist +8, Knowledge (local) +9, Perception +5, Profession (grave digger) +4, Sense Motive +5, Sleight of Hand +7, Stealth +10, Use Magic Device +8; Racial Modifiers +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Goblin, Infernal, Orc
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +2), inspiration (5/day), master of disguise, mimic mastery, vocal mimicry
Other Gear 150 gp
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Special Abilities
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Alchemy +2 (Su) +2 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
All-Around Vision You can see in all directions and cannot be flanked.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Fiendish Facade (Human) You are easily mistaken for a member of another race. Your fiendish physical traits are normally hidden by clothing or appear to be markings of another race.
Prerequisites: Tiefling, must be taken at 1st level.
Benefit: You get a
Inspiration (+1d6, 5/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Master of Disguise (Ex) Disguise in 1d3 minutes. Reduce penalties for different traits by 2 each.
Mimic Mastery Count as 2 level higher for duration of disguise self or any polymorph on yourself.
Vocal Mimicry (Ex) You can mimic voices and sounds around you.
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Grandfather Kydeem (when drunk/drugged enough) always insisted that the family used to be important with ties at the very top. Though that was before the Darians took over.
Now the family is reduced to being thankful for the jobs that no one else wants. Like Nebdel's job as a grave digger.
Nebdel found he could make a tidy and untraceable profit by digging up the old graves that no one visited any more. As long as the things he sold were not unique enough to attract attention and be identifiable, there was no real way to tell they were grave goods.
But he really started making money when he found a man calling himself Eslecan. He was willing to pay good money for the bones of important people.
Unfortunately, his customer wasn't as careful, he raised undead that were clearly recognized as deceased members of the high families.
When the idiot Eslecan was taken down the necromantic battle was big enough to give Nebdel warning enough to flee.
He spent nearly a year living on the streets in the slums waiting for things to die down. Unfortunately he didn't wait long enough before trying to get in touch with some of his old contacts.
I'm not entirely sure where to go with him after this. I like the double fiend sight for see in darkness. I was also considering the feats and extra talents to really specialize on the inspiration for combat. Further suggestions?