What exactly is precision damage?

[darth_borehd]

When something is unable to deal "precision" damage, what does that mean?

Sneak Attack?
Critical hits?
Precise Shot?
Precise Striker?

[Chess Pwn]

sneak attack, precise strike, and anything else that says it's precision damage. If it doesn't say it's precision then it's not.

[DM_Blake]

Just the first one.

Precision Damage is a game term that is used to refer to Sneak Attacks. Sometimes other game mechanics piggyback off of this concept with phrasing like this from the Swashbuckler's Precise Strike deed: "Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by precise strike", but that doesn't exactly mean that this deed (or other class abilities with text like this) are considered Precision Damage, it just means that these abilities don't work on anything that is immune to precision damage.

Precise Shot, despite the name, is not "precision damage" nor is it ever ignored by anything based on that target's ability to ignore precision damage.

[William Ronald]

Precision damage is all about finding a very good spot to damage something or hurt a creature. A good example of this is the soft spot in a dragon's armor where a scale is missing, as Tolkien wrote in the Hobbit.

Some creatures really do not have an part that is more susceptible to damage than another part. Oozes are immune to precision damage and critical hits. (What is the weak spot on something that looks like animated jelly?)

[darth_borehd]

So unable to cause "precision damage" does not mean unable to do critical hits, right?

[thorin001]

darth_borehd wrote:

So unable to cause "precision damage" does not mean unable to do critical hits, right?

Correct. However, anything that is immune to crits is immune to precision damage.

[Blackfoot]

thorin001 wrote:

darth_borehd wrote:

So unable to cause "precision damage" does not mean unable to do critical hits, right?

Correct. However, anything that is immune to crits is immune to precision damage.

Is that actually true?

And is the reverse true as well?

Are all creatures that are immune to precision damage immune to critical hits?

and

Are all creatures that are immune to critical hits immune to precision damage?

[Lemmy]

Blackfoot wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

darth_borehd wrote:

So unable to cause "precision damage" does not mean unable to do critical hits, right?

Correct. However, anything that is immune to crits is immune to precision damage.

Is that actually true?

And is the reverse true as well?

Are all creatures that are immune to precision damage immune to critical hits?

and

Are all creatures that are immune to critical hits immune to precision damage?

I can't remember if it's an universal rule but neither can I recall any case where a creature is immune to crits but not to precision damage...

The reverse isn't true, though. There are plenty of enemies that are immune to precision damage but not to critical hits.

[thecarrotman]

Precision damage is primarily sneak attack, it can be a number of related abilities that mimic sneak attack with varying requirements

Skirmish requires movement
Precise strike is a class feature, melee only, and doesn't get as powerful. but is more reliable
Studied strike requires a few rounds of studying the target, also not as powerful

Blackfoot wrote:

Is that actually true?

Yes, any creature immune to critical hits is immune to precision based damage.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no creature that is naturally immune to precision based damage, that is not naturally immune to critical hits. The reverse would be true as well

Although there are a variety of abilities that reduce them- 1)cannot be flanked, unless by a rogue 4 levels higher- basically renders you immune to precision based damage, but not technically as it doesn't apply to skirmish (rogue scout archetype), precise strike, sudden strike, or studied strike all of which mimic sneak attack 2) Fortification- reduces critical chance, etc.

This is the reason that the monster description include both in the description

[Ridiculon]

So this just popped up in the general forum a little while ago, swarms don't actually say they are immune to sneak attacks/precision damage:

Swarm Traits:

A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.

so the fact that they are not subject to critical hits means they are also immune to sneak attacks?

is there somewhere in the rules that actually says this? it makes sense to me but im leery of endorsing it without a direct statement in the rules

[Torbyne]

Ridiculon wrote:

So this just popped up in the general forum a little while ago, swarms don't actually say they are immune to sneak attacks/precision damage: ** spoiler omitted **

so the fact that they are not subject to critical hits means they are also immune to sneak attacks?

is there somewhere in the rules that actually says this? it makes sense to me but im leery of endorsing it without a direct statement in the rules

It isnt entirely clear cut but i would use this line from sneak attack, "The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. " and this one from swarms, "A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy" to mean that a swarm lacks any vital spots and is not subject to sneak attack damage.

[Ridiculon]

Torbyne wrote:

Ridiculon wrote:

So this just popped up in the general forum a little while ago, swarms don't actually say they are immune to sneak attacks/precision damage: ** spoiler omitted **

so the fact that they are not subject to critical hits means they are also immune to sneak attacks?

is there somewhere in the rules that actually says this? it makes sense to me but im leery of endorsing it without a direct statement in the rules

It isnt entirely clear cut but i would use this line from sneak attack, "The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. " and this one from swarms, "A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy" to mean that a swarm lacks any vital spots and is not subject to sneak attack damage.

found why its so weird, the swarm text hasnt been updated since they removed this part of sneak attack from the 3.5 rules

Sneak attack restriction:

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

so that "discernable anatomy" bit used to be enough to make swarms immune Torbyne, but i'd say under the new RAW you get sneak attacks on swarms until they patch it

although by RAI its pretty obvious that you dont

[Lamontius]

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Enemy Subtypes Immune to Precision-based Damage (Sneak Attack):
• Elemental
• Incorporeal
• Ooze
• Protean (50% chance to ignore SA damage)

Enemy Subtypes Immune to Flanking
• Ooze (Immune to SA damage anyway)
• Swarm
• Elemental (Immune to SA damage anyway)

Enemy Subtypes Immune to Critical Hits
• Aeon
• Elemental
• Incorporeal
• Ooze
• Protean
• Swarm

I keep this copypasta'd for dumpster necros like this thread

[fretgod99]

The swarm bit has been a pretty well-known oversight in the port over from 3.5 for years. RAI is clear and it's inferable from the rules, but it's not explicit.

[Naal]

Even incorporeal creatures are subject to precision damage and critical hits if you whack them with a ghost touch weapon.

[Ascalaphus]

It's not a rule that immunity to critical hits and immunity to precision damage go hand in hand, but in practice, almost every thing that's immune to the one is also immune to the other.

[TriOmegaZero]

Precision damage is anything that says it is precision damage.

Much like death attacks are anything that say they are death attacks.

[James Risner]

The stance that interprets RAW to allow Sneak Attacking a Swarm only when the swarm is flat footed, is not one you will likely see at a table.

Most interpretations of RAW will find Swarm immune to precision due to the immunity to critical hits.

[Brf]

Does PF even have a definition for "Precision Damage"?
I know 3.5 had one, but the CRB glossary does not mention it.
The CRB Combat section mentions it twice, saying "precision damage (such as a Rogue's sneak attack)" in both places, without actually defining what "precision damage" means.

[James Risner]

It is defined by how it is used. In other words, things are precision if they say they are.

[Derklord]

There's a glossary in the CRB?

[wraithstrike]

There is a glossary in the CRB and on the PRD, but precision damage is not defined.