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This is less a mechanical question then one for when its more beneficial to use the anti-magic fallback.
Obviously, this is a high level dragon issue, as the dragon has to have access to sixth level spells.
Now, I'm partially of the mind that the field takes away quite a lot, but also gives the dragon advantages he otherwise would not have against similar foes.
In my case, I'm planning to use it with an Ancient Green Dragon against a party of 6 15th level characters.
The pros I see are
1.) It disables the paladin's smite ability,
2.)pretty much all of the barbarian's rage abilities,
3.)removes the summoner's ability to use summoned creatures effectively against the dragon,
4.)makes indirect spells useless,
5.) Makes the dragon's DR 15/magic actually daunting as opposed to instantly bypassed,
6.) Renders elemental protections moot.
The cons are..
1.) It reduces the dragon to purely physical strikes.
2.) Dropping it to effect a magical escape, is a standard action.
3.) It robs the dragon of the capability of using its mirror image, displacement, mage armor, and shield spells.
4.) Inflicts on my players having to do math to account for their weapons and equipment all being turned off when they're within 10 feet of the gargantuan dragon.
Now I don't want this to just be about my Ancient Green but rather a discussion about whether its really in the dragon's best interests to pop an anti-magic field before getting to grips with a party of on par adventurers.
Just use the spells and spell like abilities to make a more memorable fight. A dragon without is abilities is a mediocre melee fighter for its level. With spells and SLAs, it's amazing. Use Alter Self and your SLAs to make it a non-combat fight. If it doesn't go well, teleport away and then scry and fry.
How doesArea 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on youandShould a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.apply to a dragon?
If it's really a 10' radius sphere most of the dragon won't be affected. Or does it cover the whole dragon and 10' out from wherever it is?
In my games i have houseruled that it covers the whole dragon and Emirates to 10 feet out from it. Otherwise, why would a dragon cast it, ever? Or any creature larger that ten feet?
If a characters attack can reach or hit any square the creature is in and not in the AM zone then it effectively bypasses it.
I don't think that was the original intent of the spell to limit itself. No proof, of course, but it is how I rule in my home games.
How doesArea 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on youandShould a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.apply to a dragon?
If it's really a 10' radius sphere most of the dragon won't be affected. Or does it cover the whole dragon and 10' out from wherever it is?
From Official FAQ concerning spells like antimagic field
Big creatures and centered effects: If a Large or larger creature has up an effect “centered on you,” does that mean that sometimes the emanation doesn’t even affect the creature’s entire space, let alone anything else?
Answer: No, when a creature uses an emanation or burst with the text “centered on you,” treat the creature’s entire space as the spell’s point of origin, and measure the spell’s area or effect from the edges of the creature’s space. For instance, an antimagic field cast by a great wyrm red dragon would extend 10 feet beyond her 30x30 foot space, for a total of a 50 foot diameter.
Didn't know about the FAQ ruling. Good to know.
How doesArea 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on youandShould a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.apply to a dragon?
Look to a non SP/SU/Spells ancient green dragon.
Spoiler:Ancient Green Dragon CR 17XP 102,400
LE Gargantuan dragon (air)
Init –1; Senses dragon senses; Perception +35
Aura frightful presence (300 ft., DC 26)
Defense
AC 36, touch 5, flat-footed 36 (–1 Dex, +31 natural, –4 size)
hp 310 (23d12+161)
Fort +20, Ref +12, Will +20
DR 15/magic; Immune acid, paralysis, sleep; SR 28
Offense
Speed 40 ft., fly 250 ft. (clumsy), swim 40 ft.
Melee bite +31 (4d6+18/19–20), 2 claws +31 (2d8+12/19–20), 2 wings +29 (2d6+6), tail slap +29 (2d8+18)
Space 20 ft., Reach 15 ft. (20 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks crush (Medium creatures, DC 28, 4d6+18), tail sweep
Statistics
Str 35, Dex 8, Con 25, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 20
Base Atk +23; CMB +39; CMD 48 (52 vs. trip)
Feats Alertness, Bleeding Critical, Cleave, Critical Focus, Flyby Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (bite, claws), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack
Skills Fly +9, Knowledge (arcane) +31, Knowledge (local) +31, Knowledge (nature) +31, Knowledge (planes) +31, Perception +35, Spellcraft +31, Stealth +13, Survival +31, Swim +46, Use Magic Device +31
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Sylvan
SQ camouflage, trackless step, water breathing, woodland strideMhhhh, it still has frightful presence, a good perception, fly speed, DR/magic and a lot of attacks. His Ref save is still low, and his touch AC is even lower. What can be done?
A Monk4/Ninja2 has a Ki pool which is both SU/EX, and Monk4 get his unarmed strike to bypass DR/magic. Probably this isn't a character.
Stunning fists also.
Archers may keep a bunch of bonuses because they aren't inside the AMF (but arrows does).
Stone discuss, 4d6 every 4 level beyond 3, targets AC and bypass DR magic. 12d6 is good.
Lantern archon deals 1d6 as a ranged touch attack (EX). Spam them.
Alchemists's fire does 1d6 of fire damage, targets touch AC. Even the 7 strength wizard is able to autohit except on 1's against 5.
Snowball (great with metamagic) and his family, walls also. Just be sure that the party knows that they are going to fight a creature inside an antimagic field.
This is less a mechanical question then one for when its more beneficial to use the anti-magic fallback.
Obviously, this is a high level dragon issue, as the dragon has to have access to sixth level spells.
Now, I'm partially of the mind that the field takes away quite a lot, but also gives the dragon advantages he otherwise would not have against similar foes.
In my case, I'm planning to use it with an Ancient Green Dragon against a party of 6 15th level characters.
The pros I see are
1.) It disables the paladin's smite ability,
2.)pretty much all of the barbarian's rage abilities,
3.)removes the summoner's ability to use summoned creatures effectively against the dragon,
4.)makes indirect spells useless,
5.) Makes the dragon's DR 15/magic actually daunting as opposed to instantly bypassed,
6.) Renders elemental protections moot.The cons are..
1.) It reduces the dragon to purely physical strikes.
2.) Dropping it to effect a magical escape, is a standard action.
3.) It robs the dragon of the capability of using its mirror image, displacement, mage armor, and shield spells.
4.) Inflicts on my players having to do math to account for their weapons and equipment all being turned off when they're within 10 feet of the gargantuan dragon.Now I don't want this to just be about my Ancient Green but rather a discussion about whether its really in the dragon's best interests to pop an anti-magic field before getting to grips with a party of on par adventurers.
You are wrong on some things. Antimagic field will work on spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities as well as any enchanted items a pc has. It will not work on Extraordinary abilities though. So your right about the paladin's smite ability not working in the field because it is a supernatural ability, but a barbarian's Rage and Rage powers will work in the field because they are extraordinary abilities. And your dragon's DR 15/magic will not work in the field either because it is considered supernatural. The rules on this can be found here.
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You are wrong on some things. Antimagic field will work on spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities as well as any enchanted items a pc has. It will not work on Extraordinary abilities though. So your right about the paladin's smite ability not working in the field because it is a supernatural ability, but a barbarian's Rage and Rage powers will work in the field because they are extraordinary abilities. And your dragon's DR 15/magic will not work in the field either because it...This is less a mechanical question then one for when its more beneficial to use the anti-magic fallback.
Obviously, this is a high level dragon issue, as the dragon has to have access to sixth level spells.
Now, I'm partially of the mind that the field takes away quite a lot, but also gives the dragon advantages he otherwise would not have against similar foes.
In my case, I'm planning to use it with an Ancient Green Dragon against a party of 6 15th level characters.
The pros I see are
1.) It disables the paladin's smite ability,
2.)pretty much all of the barbarian's rage abilities,
3.)removes the summoner's ability to use summoned creatures effectively against the dragon,
4.)makes indirect spells useless,
5.) Makes the dragon's DR 15/magic actually daunting as opposed to instantly bypassed,
6.) Renders elemental protections moot.The cons are..
1.) It reduces the dragon to purely physical strikes.
2.) Dropping it to effect a magical escape, is a standard action.
3.) It robs the dragon of the capability of using its mirror image, displacement, mage armor, and shield spells.
4.) Inflicts on my players having to do math to account for their weapons and equipment all being turned off when they're within 10 feet of the gargantuan dragon.Now I don't want this to just be about my Ancient Green but rather a discussion about whether its really in the dragon's best interests to pop an anti-magic field before getting to grips with a party of on par adventurers.
Now /that/ is new info by me.
So DR gets shut off in an anti magic field? That seems a bit bizarre since you can get DR by putting on entirely non magical suit of adamantine armor.
I admit, I always envisioned that as the primary reason you'd use the AMF as a dragon, to make your otherwise useless DR useful for something.
I was wrong about damage reduction. Some DR is considered supernatural while others is considered extraordinary.
About the closet thing I could find about it was from 3.5 which from what I have come to understand is what pathfinder is modeled after.
EX: Damage Type (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning), Nothing (unbreachable), Adamantine
SU: Aligned (good/evil/law/chaos), Epic (+6 or more), Magic (+1 or more), Achemical Silver, Cold Iron
While this is not official ruling from paizo, from what I see it makes sense. The closet thing I could find to a official ruling was here. It lists it as being either Su or Ex but doesn't explain which DR is which. Sorry for the confusion I caused on that. If anybody can clarify this be my guest.
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No apologies needed.
I house rule epic level things to not lose their mojo unless disjuncted, even in AMFs. And it does make sense, but I always envisioned DR magic for a dragon representing its ridiculously resilient hide (meaning that normal weapons just have trouble getting through it).
Still, discussions like this stuff on DR ties in with the overall purpose of the thread which is..is Amf good for dragons or no?
And in my case, is it good for my ancient green who's fighting six guys underwater.
I figured the DR would give him a sizable advantage, since a 15pt hit is a big deal. Especially since to get near him, all of your attribute boosting gear would be borked and ranged options become significantly less effective underwater.
The fact for my guy that it'd turn off water breathing is a non-issue since well..the save isn't that big, and 14-16 rounds (plus all the rounds making DC 10+) is an eternity.
Wait, does AMF turn off a dragon's resistances? That seems kinda goofy too?
A dragon in an antimagic field is actually pretty powerful since that FAQ ruling.
Give him fly by attack and now he just does strafing runs on the party weaklings without risking any serious damage since most characters are unlikely to be able to hit him without the use of magic (natural fliers and archers excluded).
It's now how do you deal with a flying monster with DR you can't bypass and can't reach.
A dragon in an antimagic field is actually pretty powerful since that FAQ ruling.
Give him fly by attack and now he just does strafing runs on the party weaklings without risking any serious damage since most characters are unlikely to be able to hit him without the use of magic (natural fliers and archers excluded).
It's now how do you deal with a flying monster with DR you can't bypass and can't reach.
About the only way I could image someone dealing with a situation like this is for someone to target the dragon's touch ac(it's Achilles hill) with a lot of damage somehow. Maybe a gunslinger with a lot of buffs. Technically since a gunslinger is long range any buffs to him whether it would be items or spells as long as they effect him and only his weapon then that dragon is as good as dead because the antimagic field won't affect him if it is not within range. About the only way the antimagic field would work is if any part of his damage(bullet) was magical in nature. Off course where are you going to find that in a sword/shield and magic fantasy setting most of the time.
How doesThe question has come up before and the answer is.. it's really a 10 foot square. So maybe this is a spell that a dragon wouldn't cast.Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on youandShould a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.apply to a dragon?
If it's really a 10' radius sphere most of the dragon won't be affected. Or does it cover the whole dragon and 10' out from wherever it is?
The FAQ posted above in this thread tells you that this is wrong.
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A dragon in an antimagic field is actually pretty powerful since that FAQ ruling.
Give him fly by attack and now he just does strafing runs on the party weaklings without risking any serious damage since most characters are unlikely to be able to hit him without the use of magic (natural fliers and archers excluded).
It's now how do you deal with a flying monster with DR you can't bypass and can't reach.
Why would 16th level martials have trouble with a DR/15? That's not that high. Any ranged built martial should have clustered shot. Toss a haste on there and your archer fighter / zen archer / musket master is going to be laughing off the DR/15.
If you have a smart caster, they'll have some conjuration (creation) spells. Your anti-magic isn't going to bother that too much.
You can still summon creatures with ranged attacks, still use buffs as long as you're more than 10' away. I think it would be easier than if you were fighting the dragon with the dragon's full set of abilities.
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Why would 16th level martials have trouble with a DR/15? That's not that high. Any ranged built martial should have clustered shot. Toss a haste on there and your archer fighter / zen archer / musket master is going to be laughing off the DR/15.
If you have a smart caster, they'll have some conjuration (creation) spells. Your anti-magic isn't going to bother that too much.
You can still summon creatures with ranged attacks, still use buffs as long as you're more than 10' away. I think it would be easier than if you were fighting the dragon with the dragon's full set of abilities.
He's also going to be the first one the dragon targets to kill. With a simple addition of the Snatch feat the ranged character is probably in for a world of hurt. Remember that basically every attack you make is going to be reduced by 15 points of damage. Sure you can get more than 15 points of damage, but without magic you're probably not doing more than 20, which would be reduced to 5.
Think about it, we have ancient intelligent creatures. Melee characters and casters are no threat because they can't reach you or can't affect you. You simply focus on any ranged characters present and kill them first. Picking them up and flying away with them if necessary. Dropping them for falling damage. Simply using your natural attacks on them while having them snatched up.
About the only way I could image someone dealing with a situation like this is for someone to target the dragon's touch ac(it's Achilles hill) with a lot of damage somehow. Maybe a gunslinger with a lot of buffs. Technically since a gunslinger is long range any buffs to him whether it would be items or spells as long as they effect him and only his weapon then that dragon is as good as dead because the antimagic field won't affect him if it is not within range. About the only way the antimagic field would work is if any part of his damage(bullet) was magical in nature. Off course where are you going to find that in a sword/shield and magic fantasy setting most of the time.A dragon in an antimagic field is actually pretty powerful since that FAQ ruling.
Give him fly by attack and now he just does strafing runs on the party weaklings without risking any serious damage since most characters are unlikely to be able to hit him without the use of magic (natural fliers and archers excluded).
It's now how do you deal with a flying monster with DR you can't bypass and can't reach.
Or just shoot it with your bow. A lot. Clustered shot and a few buffs and you can easily do 100 points of damage per martial per round, even with the DR. It wouldn't take very long at that.
Why would 16th level martials have trouble with a DR/15? That's not that high. Any ranged built martial should have clustered shot. Toss a haste on there and your archer fighter / zen archer / musket master is going to be laughing off the DR/15.
If you have a smart caster, they'll have some conjuration (creation) spells. Your anti-magic isn't going to bother that too much.
You can still summon creatures with ranged attacks, still use buffs as long as you're more than 10' away. I think it would be easier than if you were fighting the dragon with the dragon's full set of abilities.
He's also going to be the first one the dragon targets to kill. With a simple addition of the Snatch feat the ranged character is probably in for a world of hurt. Remember that basically every attack you make is going to be reduced by 15 points of damage. Sure you can get more than 15 points of damage, but without magic you're probably not doing more than 20, which would be reduced to 5.
Think about it, we have ancient intelligent creatures. Melee characters and casters are no threat because they can't reach you or can't affect you. You simply focus on any ranged characters present and kill them first. Picking them up and flying away with them if necessary. Dropping them for falling damage. Simply using your natural attacks on them while having them snatched up.
And this is why I want to make my paladin's dragon mount, Dari(animal companion via divine bond) have the snatch feat. You can damage it with range attackers, but how will you deal with the dragon's tactics. lol
Why would 16th level martials have trouble with a DR/15? That's not that high. Any ranged built martial should have clustered shot. Toss a haste on there and your archer fighter / zen archer / musket master is going to be laughing off the DR/15.
If you have a smart caster, they'll have some conjuration (creation) spells. Your anti-magic isn't going to bother that too much.
You can still summon creatures with ranged attacks, still use buffs as long as you're more than 10' away. I think it would be easier than if you were fighting the dragon with the dragon's full set of abilities.
He's also going to be the first one the dragon targets to kill. With a simple addition of the Snatch feat the ranged character is probably in for a world of hurt. Remember that basically every attack you make is going to be reduced by 15 points of damage. Sure you can get more than 15 points of damage, but without magic you're probably not doing more than 20, which would be reduced to 5.
Think about it, we have ancient intelligent creatures. Melee characters and casters are no threat because they can't reach you or can't affect you. You simply focus on any ranged characters present and kill them first. Picking them up and flying away with them if necessary. Dropping them for falling damage. Simply using your natural attacks on them while having them snatched up.
1 - Clustered Shot. If you're a dedicated ranged martial and you don't have clustered shot then you're an idiot.
2 - You still get the magic of your bow. It's not within 10 feet. Just don't get to use magic arrows.
Why would 16th level martials have trouble with a DR/15? That's not that high. Any ranged built martial should have clustered shot. Toss a haste on there and your archer fighter / zen archer / musket master is going to be laughing off the DR/15.
If you have a smart caster, they'll have some conjuration (creation) spells. Your anti-magic isn't going to bother that too much.
You can still summon creatures with ranged attacks, still use buffs as long as you're more than 10' away. I think it would be easier than if you were fighting the dragon with the dragon's full set of abilities.
He's also going to be the first one the dragon targets to kill. With a simple addition of the Snatch feat the ranged character is probably in for a world of hurt. Remember that basically every attack you make is going to be reduced by 15 points of damage. Sure you can get more than 15 points of damage, but without magic you're probably not doing more than 20, which would be reduced to 5.
Think about it, we have ancient intelligent creatures. Melee characters and casters are no threat because they can't reach you or can't affect you. You simply focus on any ranged characters present and kill them first. Picking them up and flying away with them if necessary. Dropping them for falling damage. Simply using your natural attacks on them while having them snatched up.
Also - why do you think that casters can't affect you? That dragon is going to be rather surprised when he flies into that lava wall (a conjuration-creation spell) the wizard popped up right in front of him.
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A dragon in an antimagic field is actually pretty powerful since that FAQ ruling.
Give him fly by attack and now he just does strafing runs on the party weaklings without risking any serious damage since most characters are unlikely to be able to hit him without the use of magic (natural fliers and archers excluded).
It's now how do you deal with a flying monster with DR you can't bypass and can't reach.
Why would 16th level martials have trouble with a DR/15? That's not that high. Any ranged built martial should have clustered shot. Toss a haste on there and your archer fighter / zen archer / musket master is going to be laughing off the DR/15.
If you have a smart caster, they'll have some conjuration (creation) spells. Your anti-magic isn't going to bother that too much.
You can still summon creatures with ranged attacks, still use buffs as long as you're more than 10' away. I think it would be easier than if you were fighting the dragon with the dragon's full set of abilities.
In my case? They're fighting the fellow in its lair, the lair which is forbiddanced which puts a handy kibosh on summoning at all.
Also, the party composition has no ranged martials (fighty types are a paladin, scout archetype rogue and barbarian), and no dedicated war caster (casters are a cleric (whose spent most of her spells on water breathings, freedom of movements and heals), a summoner, and a bard). The barbarian is mostly focused on totems, the paladin is saving up an Angelic Aspect, and the Rogue has extraordinary mobility (albeit he's underwater and the lair lacks a 'floor' so everyone's going to be sinking or swimming).
I'm intentionally having this be a lair fight since most of their previous battles have been with dragons on the wing. That being said, I know they'll be to grips with it in one round or less.
Meaning by round 2 or 3, the barbarian is full attacking, and the rogue may be full sneak attacking on it. Assuming the paladin doesn't merely waffle iron it with his paladin goodness.
I thought the AMF might be useful for the reasons above, but also because it tears off a lot of protective and buffing stuff within 10 feet of the dragon.
(Dragon's got back up in the form of a veiled master (not too useful since the party is under a PvE), and an elder water elemental or 2).
If I decide to not go with the AMF tactic, I'm going to 'spend' some of the loot to give the dragon a scroll of Arcane Disjunction, and see if I can't just outright turn off a lot of the party's loot (but it likely won't do jack against the cleric's stuff or the paladin's holy avenger).
That's my specific situation though.
I'm still trying to figure out, for academic reasons, if AMF is an overall benefit or drawback to dragons. Since it tends to take quite a lot away from them, but does leave them quite a lot.
Sure you can get more than 15 points of damage, but without magic you're probably not doing more than 20, which would be reduced to 5.
This seems extremely low for a 16th level archer. Remember that buffs to the character will still function, as the dragon probably won't keep still within the 10ft. diameter (otherwise melee will also be able to attack her easily). Just base 1d8+8(Str)+10(Deadly Aim)+4 Weapon Spec+2 Heroism=1d8+24. Cluster shots means even with just three hits out of the 6 attacks, you're looking at 3d8+72 vs the DR of 15.
I don't play high levels so don't know exactly how high people tend to get, but "not doing more than 20" honestly sounded silly as plenty of 10th level characters will do more than that.
1 - Clustered Shot. If you're a dedicated ranged martial and you don't have clustered shot then you're an idiot.
2 - You still get the magic of your bow. It's not within 10 feet. Just don't get to use magic arrows.
I don't know about an idiot. Remember it requires a BAB of 6 and there are several other good feats available at level 6 as well. For 3/4 BAB classes you don't reach BAB 6 until 8th level. It's possible that you could encounter the dragon without having clustered shots so it will make it very challenging if you don't. If you do, the dragon is still going to focus on you first.
You don't get the magical damage enhancement to your damage on the dragon, even if you fire from outside. The damage is from magic, which gets turned off in the antimagic field. You would get the bonus to hit though.
Sure you can get more than 15 points of damage, but without magic you're probably not doing more than 20, which would be reduced to 5.This seems extremely low for a 16th level archer. Remember that buffs to the character will still function, as the dragon probably won't keep still within the 10ft. diameter (otherwise melee will also be able to attack her easily). Just base 1d8+8(Str)+10(Deadly Aim)+4 Weapon Spec+2 Heroism=1d8+24. Cluster shots means even with just three hits out of the 6 attacks, you're looking at 3d8+72 vs the DR of 15.
I don't play high levels so don't know exactly how high people tend to get, but "not doing more than 20" honestly sounded silly as plenty of 10th level characters will do more than that.
+8 strength isn't likely. An archer is going to be dex based, not strength based. My 16th level ranger had a strength of 16, which is only a +3. I might give you a +5 from strength. But remember, the dragon is coming after you first. He's going to be within 10ft of you, you're only going to get 1 round of magic on you to buff you.
Breaking 20 damage without magic is going to be hard, and I'm assuming the dragon is on you like white on rice.
We also haven't talked about the dragon just flying up and sundering your bow (which will be non-magical when it happens).
Antimagic field isn't an automatic win for the dragon, but it will make life much more difficult for the party because it remove melee threats and severely reduces threat from casters. In my experience, most casters don't specialize or frequently prepare conjuration(creation) spells just to deal with such a situation.
Anyways, I'm out of time to play dragon's advocate. Back to work.
I'm still trying to figure out, for academic reasons, if AMF is an overall benefit or drawback to dragons. Since it tends to take quite a lot away from them, but does leave them quite a lot.
Note that using the AMF doesn't mean they can't use magic to tilt the odds in their favor beforehand; an Ancient Red for example, could probably make great pre-combat use of Wall of Force and Limited Wish.
I don't know about an idiot. Remember it requires a BAB of 6 and there are several other good feats available at level 6 as well. For 3/4 BAB classes you don't reach BAB 6 until 8th level. It's possible that you could encounter the dragon without having clustered shots so it will make it very challenging if you don't.
If you're an archer, and not say a casting-focused cleric that just does some archery on the side, you reaaaally should have clustered shots before you go up against a CR18 dragon (of the published ones, the lowest chromatic I can find with the spell is a Very Old Red).
Even IF you are a 3/4 BAB class, and even IF you don't get it at level 9, you really really really really ought to get it at level 11. I cannot see any situation in which an archer would not have it by level 13 - I can't think of three feats which are even remotely close to as good as clustered shots.
1 - Clustered Shot. If you're a dedicated ranged martial and you don't have clustered shot then you're an idiot.
2 - You still get the magic of your bow. It's not within 10 feet. Just don't get to use magic arrows.I don't know about an idiot. Remember it requires a BAB of 6 and there are several other good feats available at level 6 as well. For 3/4 BAB classes you don't reach BAB 6 until 8th level. It's possible that you could encounter the dragon without having clustered shots so it will make it very challenging if you don't. If you do, the dragon is still going to focus on you first.
I was a bit harsh. That said, we're talking about 16h level characters. If you're a dedicated archer martial, you absolutely have it.
Remember that the DR/magic is shut down too and elemental resistance is useless anyway as the dragon's breath is a Su ability.
Remember that the DR/magic is shut down too and elemental resistance is useless anyway as the dragon's breath is a Su ability.DR is explicitly Su or Ex however it's almost never called out which it is on any given bestiary entry. Ergo, it's up to the DM.
For the most part when I DM, I have most DR be extraordinary for anything where the DR seems to be a part of their natural form, such as dragons (extraordinarily thick/strong scales), skeletons (duh), constructs (most of which ARE immune to magic and so couldn't have Su DR anyway), elementals, oozes and the like. Outsiders and other aligned creatures, excepting Inevitables, I generally give Su DR, as you don't have super thick/hard skin as a succubus obviously.
Naturally thick and strong scales would warrant DR/Adamantine rather than DR/Magic.
As a rule of thumb, the only DRs that are EX are DR/- , Bludceoning, Slashing, Piercing and maybe Adamantine. All the others (Magic, Alignments, Silver, Cold Iron and Epic) are magical in nature.
Anyway, back to the OP's situation - I still think you're going to want to play around with the Dragon's spells a bit. Take advantage of some of those nasty enchantment spells, use some illusions, polymorph, don't just make it a straight up hand-to-hand fight.
My source is common sense
and a post from a dev during the Brawler playtest, when some people asked to change the Brawler's Strike from Su to Ex for flavor, that dev pointed out that mechanically it wouldn't have made any difference as the AMF would have shut down the type of DR that was overcome by the Brawler's ability.
Y-you think it's common sense that AMF would turn off a dragon's heavy hard scales, but not say, it's ludicrous ability to fly as a massive heavy reptile with wings that couldn't even begin to lift something so huge?
Yeah... that makes no sense.
heavy hard scales are the natural armor
DR/magic is magical in nature by necessity: it blocks a huge masterwork adamantine greatsword but not a puny +1 dagger or even a normal one empowered by Arcane Strike from a level 1 Bard? If you think that's natural hardness rather than some basic magical protection you should notice it falls apart by now
There's nothing "natural" about an ability that says "blocks attack except if they're magical enough"
Besides which, DR/Magic is worthless and might as well be removed otherwise.
Ehh. There are a number of situations where DR x/magic might still be relevant, though at CRs as high as 18 it's pretty rare. But it mainly comes into play when other monsters are present. For example, if the players are getting help from a dragon with killing a Kraken or Linnorm or Nightcrawler.
But yeah, at CR 18 it's pretty much like "disease immunity" - something that will come up maybe one in ten thousand encounters, and is mostly relevant for the purpose of imagining how the creature relates to the world at large (for those who enjoy world-building on a deeper level than making sure the players have an appropriate-CR encounter around the corner).
My source is common sense
and a post from a dev during the Brawler playtest, when some people asked to change the Brawler's Strike from Su to Ex for flavor, that dev pointed out that mechanically it wouldn't have made any difference as the AMF would have shut down the type of DR that was overcome by the Brawler's ability.
Common sense has no place when it comes to role-playing games. I say that with complete sincerity and without sarcasm. That way lies madness.
Y-you think it's common sense that AMF would turn off a dragon's heavy hard scales, but not say, it's ludicrous ability to fly as a massive heavy reptile with wings that couldn't even begin to lift something so huge?
Yeah... that makes no sense.
heavy hard scales are the natural armor
DR/magic is magical in nature by necessity: it blocks a huge masterwork adamantine greatsword but not a puny +1 dagger or even a normal one empowered by Arcane Strike from a level 1 Bard? If you think that's natural hardness rather than some basic magical protection you should notice it falls apart by now
There's nothing "natural" about an ability that says "blocks attack except if they're magical enough"
Now you have trouble believing that magic can be magical and do magical things?
still DR/magic hardly has anything to do with natural hardness
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I'd disagree on the magic front, and I certainly don't think it's self-evident—it's pretty obviously a point for personal interpretation, and has no place being discussed here.
let me just 1st say. the following might lead to a tpk. if you don't think your party can handle it. you might want to let them have it a bit easier and remove some of the elements in this idea.
back to evil plan # 343 -
"Ancient green dragon takes on group of humanoid-food stuff"
this takes on some changes to the basic dragon in the books,also it take into account that having a caster pulling out illusions while the party is high enough to have true sight is just silly:
removing some unneeded feats to make room for far better(one feat can be taken by very few creatures. green dragons included. so it's a shame having the requirements and not taking it).
feats taken off the dragon's list:
- Bleeding Critical .because really, what good is it? at level 15+ bleed won't last that long unless you have them all tied and even then the bloody paladin can self-hand on himself and the cleric will positive-burst it to nothing.
-Critical Focus, improved critical (claws),improved critical(bite). criting is nice. but you can use the feats to add daamge to ALL your attack not just 10%~ (actually you already had 5% so 5%~)
- improved sunder . not that watching the players scream in agony as their weapons break isn't lovely, but you can do better. and that weapon can go into the horse as is.
5 feats taken out. 5 took instead are :
vital strike, improved vital strike, greater vital strike, noxious bite!!!, ability focus(breath weapon) - also effect the noxious bite dc.
now the idea here is to combine both antimagic AND not hamstering the dragon's abilities. it goes like this.
the dragon has at will charm\dominate person so he can have a vast army of innocent helpers beside his known working minions.
have 3-5 of them be 1st-2nd level arcane casters and dominate them to cast the antimagic field before the adventurers come(at scroll caster level it last 2~ hours). do this one at a time and kill them imidiatly(the spell is duration 10min (D) so they can use a standerd action to end it(since the antimagic release the domination) if given the chance also being dead doesn't stop the duration.
have a nice area of say 4X8 closed at the two short sides and the middle long side . where you will have other dominated victems chained and or range attack the party(want to draw them near). the dead antimagic casters go chained form the roof into the room at spaced places so the antimagic cover the entire place(ceiling no to high. up to 25 feet ,chain in middle). they are dropped after the party gets into the box so they wont notice thier magic going off and back out. dragon can be on the other ide of wall termore sense when they do.next part the last 8 "wall is cast as a parismatic wall(antimagic doesn't go past it. but the caster can). they are locekd inside. in an antimagic field srouce well out of reach unless non magic can be used. now the dragon have 2 g size helpers move next to parismatic wall to make sure no1 tries to burst trhough(make no room to move so they must go back.have normall wall behind so they can't ne pushed\overrun. next comes the dragon fly by attack 250 move speed. with greatter vital strike+ noxious bite + the fact they have no magic to suppurt them. should be a nice dc 30 each bite(don't forget cleave + great let him attack more if they are standing close) and even a barbarian at rage and a lot of con should have 50%~ to save. take out healer first and every one who fail get 8~ rounds of move only action. not even swift.
on dragon side he can even get healed.
as noted. this might end in tpk.since they seem to lack any arcane magic strong enough to take off the wall.(reason for 4X8 is to have enough room for all party AND let dragon use reach when attacking with bite so he is basicly behind the wall ;)