All this back and forth... I now believe that simply giving Fighters (possibly all non-casters) Fast Heal would bring balance to the game.
Not a level dip thing, a rule saying something like "non-casters get fast heal".
Done.
I'm considering how to implement that... even just 1 point/round lets them ACTUALLY keep going all day... but doesn't impact combat too much.
Fast heal will do nothing for the fighter's lack of any sort of narrative power, or for actual combat options. (Always imo).
Agreed. But in our games, narrative power is more about roleplaying than class abilities.
We actually don't see much disparity at our table, my group builds teams, as plays them as teams.
I just like the idea for MY table, doesn't sound like it would help everyone.
We introduce in-game limitations on teleportation (magical mountains that block it, it doesn't work in the underground kingdoms etc), and the casters all show a lot of restraint, so I'm lucky that way.
Fast heal will do nothing for the fighter's lack of any sort of narrative power, or for actual combat options. (Always imo).
Agreed. But in our games, narrative power is more about roleplaying than class abilities.
We actually don't see much disparity at our table, my group builds teams, as plays them as teams.
I just like the idea for MY table, doesn't sound like it would help everyone.
We introduce in-game limitations on teleportation (magical mountains that block it, it doesn't work in the underground kingdoms etc), and the casters all show a lot of restraint, so I'm lucky that way.
in a "group" enviroment, like a homegame, where everyone has it's designated strengths and weaknesses, the GROUP works.
But not the fighter.i mean, outside of roleplay opportunities, which are equal to all, what can a fighter do in an out of combat encounter? at a social event? while sneaking somewhere? while being captured, interogated, outmaneuvered, etc
he can simply stand in the table, and look at all the other party members DO stuff.
his chassis lack any sort of actual narative power.
sure, a atble might say that "the PLAYER spoken well so no need for a diplomacy roll" but that is a 100% homerule. Even in most occasions, a good speech, by rules, will only give you bonuses on the actual roll, which you have NOTHING to back it up with.
so:
the real problem, is that it's simply UNfun to watch every single other class being able to do SOMETHING out of combat, while the PLAYER is relegated to sit silently and watch around (RP opportunities notwithstanding, since those are either a)for fun or b)if they are to affect the world, again by rules, at most, those are simply bonuses on the actual rolls)
I mostly agree with you, except that sometimes the Fighter CAN be good at stuff.
Human fighter, favored class bonus, INT 14 actually gets 6/level skills.
Sure, he isn't super optimized smashy man, but totally playable.
Again, MY table builds groups, so even the Fighter gets to contribute. They often are handed the 'leader' role, regardless of CHA (which is rarely less than 12, TBH).
I feel bad for everyone that isn't part of my group, we work well together.
That being said, yes, I recognize the disparity issue, it bugs me a LOT, I wish something would get done to address it. Extra skill points would be nice, fast heal too...
Gestalting Rogue and Fighter would be a good start, but like you said, narrative power is still somewhat lacking...
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I mostly agree with you, except that sometimes the Fighter CAN be good at stuff.Human fighter, favored class bonus, INT 14 actually gets 6/level skills.
Sure, he isn't super optimized smashy man,...
Except that skills do nothing in comparison of magic, so your INT investment is almost useless past levels 1-3.
Either way, removing ability bonuses to skills or saves doesn't make any sense at all. And doing those changes isn't just reducing the significance, it's removing all mental ability scores from the game.
It would make the mental stats more or less insignificant for martials like physical stats are more or less insignificant for casters.
As is a fighter needs 5 of 6 stats in the positive mod range to work. A Wizard needs 1 of 6 to work (but certainly works better with 2-3 of 6).
It would make the mental stats more or less insignificant for martials like physical stats are more or less insignificant for casters.As is a fighter needs 5 of 6 stats in the positive mod range to work. A Wizard needs 1 of 6 to work (but certainly works better with 2-3 of 6).
I think the reverse is a better approach. Make somehow the physical stats matters MORE to casters, and we have a better approach.
Except that skills do nothing in comparison of magic, so your INT investment is almost useless past levels 1-3.
I mostly agree with you, except that sometimes the Fighter CAN be good at stuff.Human fighter, favored class bonus, INT 14 actually gets 6/level skills.
Sure, he isn't super optimized smashy man,...
That is situationally true.
In our games, dead magic areas/antimagic and alarms tripped by magic use are fairly common.
There CAN be in-game solutions to the disparity, but sometimes they seem forced.
We play with modified setting specific stuff that essentially nerfs casters without actually changing how the spells work... they just don't always get to use them.
When Invisibility isn't an option, Stealth can shine.
Again, not saying there isn't a disparity, just that clever GMing/well made groups can deal with it. Rules-wise, fighters are a big pile of suck.
Again, not saying there isn't a disparity, just that clever GMing/well made groups can deal with it. Rules-wise, fighters are a big pile of suck.
I think it's more clever to ban full casters then just throw deadmagic zones, but that's me. :p
Again, not saying there isn't a disparity, just that clever GMing/well made groups can deal with it. Rules-wise, fighters are a big pile of suck.I think it's more clever to ban full casters then just throw deadmagic zones, but that's me. :p
Meh, like I said, my group is pretty good about that, most of the casters hold WAY back unless required.
They nuke when they have to, not as a first resort.
Often end the day with 1/2 spells left, we do have a tradition of ACTUALLY ROLLING for random encounters at night. :D
It would make the mental stats more or less insignificant for martials like physical stats are more or less insignificant for casters.
No. It removed mental stats from the game, since it removed ability scores applying to the only things mental ability scores apply to (skills, spells, and saves). Anyone (even casters) who put an 11 or more in intelligence, wisdom or charisma would be a complete idiot when those ability scores do nothing.
When Invisibility isn't an option, Stealth can shine.Systematic of the problem, this. Magic beats skills at everything and needing effort to make it not work at all for skills to be useful. Now if magic was inferior to natural ability - as it is for a whole range of things when they aren't performed by humanoids - but characters with it had huge versatility to go with their limited power then giving more skill points would help, but the existing skill-magic balance is tilted as much by the inadequacy of what skills do as it is by the limited number available.
"You deal with this, Fighter. It's too insignificant a problem for me to bother with."Again, not saying there isn't a disparity, just that clever GMing/well made groups can deal with it. Rules-wise, fighters are a big pile of suck.I think it's more clever to ban full casters then just throw deadmagic zones, but that's me. :pMeh, like I said, my group is pretty good about that, most of the casters hold WAY back unless required.
They nuke when they have to, not as a first resort.
Often end the day with 1/2 spells left, we do have a tradition of ACTUALLY ROLLING for random encounters at night. :D
"Gladly!" *bloody mess ensues*
Often end the day with 1/2 spells left, we do have a tradition of ACTUALLY ROLLING for random encounters at night. :D
Nobody casts Rope Trick or anything like that? :p
Giving fighters fast heal would enable them to keep the fighting going when the Casters run out of spells...to an extent.
However, they would still need condition removal. All it basically does is save them from relying on casters and coin to get HP back quickly. It doesn't help them actually overcome challenges that need magic to be done quickly, or break the rules.
You could do the same thing with a group of all-fighters and rogues and just give them unlimited potions of CLW or wands of same. Okay, they heal up between all encounters. Unless it's a pure no-magic monster encounter, if they tank a will save, they are still hosed.
==Aelryinth
"Gladly!" *bloody mess ensues*When Invisibility isn't an option, Stealth can shine.Systematic of the problem, this. Magic beats skills at everything and needing effort to make it not work at all for skills to be useful. Now if magic was inferior to natural ability - as it is for a whole range of things when they aren't performed by humanoids - but characters with it had huge versatility to go with their limited power then giving more skill points would help, but the existing skill-magic balance is tilted as much by the inadequacy of what skills do as it is by the limited number available.
"You deal with this, Fighter. It's too insignificant a problem for me to bother with."Again, not saying there isn't a disparity, just that clever GMing/well made groups can deal with it. Rules-wise, fighters are a big pile of suck.I think it's more clever to ban full casters then just throw deadmagic zones, but that's me. :pMeh, like I said, my group is pretty good about that, most of the casters hold WAY back unless required.
They nuke when they have to, not as a first resort.
Often end the day with 1/2 spells left, we do have a tradition of ACTUALLY ROLLING for random encounters at night. :D
"See, told you we should have brought a druid. Then we could watch double kitty beatdown brawls AND let the combat cat duo buff themselves with flight instead of having to slap the beefcake to let them reach the things trying to kill us."
Remember kids, for almost any tactical role a martial character fills, you could do better with a caster.
Nobody casts Rope Trick or anything like that? :pOften end the day with 1/2 spells left, we do have a tradition of ACTUALLY ROLLING for random encounters at night. :D
Nope. They do use followers and invisible servants to set up their pavilion tent though.
Then everyone piles in and drinks till they pass out.
I'm fair with my random encounters. If a group of drunken level 16 characters is supposed to be attacked by 5 level 3 goons, they are.
:D Still disrupts rest for spellcasters, regardless of the outcome.
Level 16 and no Teleport cheese of dungeons? Woah.
Level 16 and no Teleport cheese of dungeons? Woah.
*shrugs* they seem to like curbstomping people 1/3 their level. I'm okay with it.
I like my group, they have fun with their power, and don't abuse it much...
Like sometimes they will cast multiple Miracles to throw a big party for a small town they are passing through.
Fun stuff.
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Like sometimes they will cast multiple Miracles to throw a big party for a small town they are passing through.
Fun stuff.
I already like you gaming group.
I'm still in favor of replacing spellcasting with Spheres of Power. Sure magic can outshine skills but you have to choose which skill you want to outclass.
I'm still in favor of replacing spellcasting with Spheres of Power. Sure magic can outshine skills but you have to choose which skill you want to outclass.
Spheres of Power are a such better casting system indeed. It's a shame that my players don't like the idea because it's different.
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Nobody casts Rope Trick or anything like that? :pOften end the day with 1/2 spells left, we do have a tradition of ACTUALLY ROLLING for random encounters at night. :D
Rope Trick is not a cure-all. And if the dungeon's inhabitants are intelligent, then rope trick is a big sign saying "build bonfire HERE".
Rope Trick is not a cure-all. And if the dungeon's inhabitants are intelligent, then rope trick is a big sign saying "build bonfire HERE".Nobody casts Rope Trick or anything like that? :pOften end the day with 1/2 spells left, we do have a tradition of ACTUALLY ROLLING for random encounters at night. :D
As opposed to just being walked in on in a dungeon room?
I always hear people complaining about how ineffective/counterable rope trick is, yet they never offer better alternatives.
They also seem to forget that you can still see out of the Rope Trick, so there's literally no reason to not have someone on watch anyways.
I already like you gaming group.Like sometimes they will cast multiple Miracles to throw a big party for a small town they are passing through.
Fun stuff.
Me too! We drink. We are all drinkers.
We basically alternate between playing super generous heroes, and super-villains.
Sometimes in the same campaign. It's a riot.
I already like you gaming group.Like sometimes they will cast multiple Miracles to throw a big party for a small town they are passing through.
Fun stuff.
I'm just wondering what kind of miracles the group is asking for....
"The town whores are now free of disease, young, and actually female now... party everyone!" Says the Wizard. "Great Wizard, those were my livestock..." says the Shepard. "So that was their problem... OK, you heard the man Folks, he gets 10%, tip well!"
Pretty much, yeah. Turning animals into humans is pretty standard in our games.
We also turn rocks and twigs into humans, and talk to them about what it's like being a rock, or a twig.
I already like you gaming group.Like sometimes they will cast multiple Miracles to throw a big party for a small town they are passing through.
Fun stuff.
I'm just wondering what kind of miracles the group is asking for....
"The town whores are now free of disease, young, and actually female now... party everyone!" Says the Wizard. "Great Wizard, those were my livestock..." says the Shepard. "So that was their problem... OK, you heard the man Folks, he gets 10%, tip well!"
Note that the wish didn't actually change the species.
EDIT: so was this town in Fantasy New Zealand?
Don't try to dictate our love preferences! Wool forever!
Actually, my characters are usually pretty vanilla. Succubi and Erinyes devils for the most part. Nothing weird.
At least we default to benevolence rather than WRATH.
Hmmmm....
And people say full casters aren't gods.I already like you gaming group.Like sometimes they will cast multiple Miracles to throw a big party for a small town they are passing through.
Fun stuff.
I'm just wondering what kind of miracles the group is asking for....
"The town whores are now free of disease, young, and actually female now... party everyone!" Says the Wizard. "Great Wizard, those were my livestock..." says the Shepard. "So that was their problem... OK, you heard the man Folks, he gets 10%, tip well!"
Pretty much, yeah. Turning animals into humans is pretty standard in our games.
We also turn rocks and twigs into humans, and talk to them about what it's like being a rock, or a twig.
Meh. Demi-god-like power, sorta. Actual godly power, nope.
Rock (now human): "So there we were, this big guy stuck between me and a hard place..."
Though how this furthers the discussion on "Why Martials Need Better Things" I don't know.
I don't understand where this thread went...
But anyways, I'd like to dredge up the conversation about what constitute a martial, because what I consider martials are totally not equal. I generally think martials need better things because a good chunk of the time they just need to be more useful in an arena other than 'I stab/shoot' but martials like the Slayer have enough skills to at least do something out of combat that isn't just trying to aggressively roleplay to compensate.
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I don't understand where this thread went...
But anyways, I'd like to dredge up the conversation about what constitute a martial, because what I consider martials are totally not equal. I generally think martials need better things because a good chunk of the time they just need to be more useful in an arena other than 'I stab/shoot' but martials like the Slayer have enough skills to at least do something out of combat that isn't just trying to aggressively roleplay to compensate.
My usual definition of "martial" is "Someone who accomplishes their tasks without, or with a bare minimum of, magical assistance, typically both in and out of combat". I consider the Paladin to be really pushing the edge of actually being a martial, since he's got a huge array of magical and supernatural abilities to draw on, but I'm generally willing to let him join that group. I think that anyone with 2/3 casting or equivalent really doesn't fall into the "martial" group, even if their schtick happens to be using magic to help them hit things.
Warpriest definitely wouldn't be a martial character to me, while a Slayer definitely would. Investigator gets a pass and counts as a martial because his alchemy is (relative to a true casting class) fairly limited and his actual methods of problem solving usually fall back to his non-magical tool sets.
The Fighter is probably the epitome of a martial class that "needs nice things", which is probably why it's the poster child for discussions like this. You can say "the Fighter fights", but... that's great and all, but literally every class fights, many of them as or more competently than the Fighter, and I honestly don't think there's a single class in the entire game that has a smaller toolbox of non-combat abilities, and that's including the entire breadth of the Paizo product line and my extensive library of 3pp materials.
Meh. Demi-god-like power, sorta. Actual godly power, nope.
And people say full casters aren't gods.
Depends on what deific mythology you're comparing to. I think the bulk of the Greek pantheon as described in their mythology is put to shame by the Wizard and Cleric once those high level spells come online, as are many Native American "deities" like Coyote and Raven. Deities as described in the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance are replaced or overthrown by Wizards with frightening regularity, and generally the only places in game you see deities who aren't at risk of deific defenestration by some enterprising mage are the ones in settings that assume them to be extremely remote and incapable of being represented by a stat block, such as in Golarion or Eberron.
A martial is a class that doesn't have access to any spellcasting. 4th level casting is typically not up to the utility of 6th level casting, but still is at the top of tier 4/bottom of tier 3 in terms of effectiveness.
Normally the complaint is based on utility and not in combat prowess. Classes without spells will always hit roadblocks that must be solved with magic (above and beyond just relying on magical equipment), and the game is built in a way that past about level 8 the normal solution to any problem is turning to a caster (which is the driving force behind E6).
Rogue, Fighter, and Core Monk all lag in combat compared to most classes and still don't have any utility. "Fighter" being the most common example of "guy with sword hits things until they can't hit them anymore past level 12", and "Rogue" being the default worst designed class in Pathfinder (taking over for core Monk in 3.5). This is acknowledged in Pathfinder unchained where core monk and all rogues got a buff with Rogues clearly getting the much larger buff from its core class.
What obstacles? Just so you know the tone wasn't a challenging one, I think it would be beneficial to literally list obstacles that must be overcome with magic that a fantasy sword-man should reasonably be able to overcome.
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What obstacles? Just so you know the tone wasn't a challenging one, I think it would be beneficial to literally list obstacles that must be overcome with magic that a fantasy sword-man should reasonably be able to overcome.
That's something of a pet project of mine, because different obstacles seem to have key levels at which they're no longer really supposed to apply.
For example, long journeys on foot across hostile terrain, a major adventure genre trope, has a "programmed obsolescence" of about 9th level for full casters, at which point 5th level spells come online: the wizard can either teleport (under good conditions) or use overland flight (otherwise). That tells me that every class, at 9th level or thereabouts, should likewise have some means of making that journey. The fighter should be able to commandeer an airship (like in Burroughs' "Mars" books), or tame a pegasus (Harryhousen "Clash of the Titans") or hippogriff (Eddison's "The Worm Ouroboros"), or something similar. Maybe the rogue can turn a regular carpet into a flying carpet, Harold Shea style ("The Castle of Iron").
Another example: ambushes while resting seems to hit programmed obsolescence sometime around 13th level, at which point the wizard gets magnificent mansion, or the cleric can plane shift the party twice a day. So that tells me that the rogue, at that level, should be so alert that he is never surprised even when asleep, and that the fighter should have enough followers of sufficient vigilance (a military encampment) that you can't just walk up to him in his sleep, either.
One day I hope to compile a list across all 20 levels, and redesign the classes in light of what it shows.
What obstacles? Just so you know the tone wasn't a challenging one, I think it would be beneficial to literally list obstacles that must be overcome with magic that a fantasy sword-man should reasonably be able to overcome.A martial is a class that doesn't have access to any spellcasting. 4th level casting is typically not up to the utility of 6th level casting, but still is at the top of tier 4/bottom of tier 3 in terms of effectiveness.
Normally the complaint is based on utility and not in combat prowess. Classes without spells will always hit roadblocks that must be solved with magic (above and beyond just relying on magical equipment), and the game is built in a way that past about level 8 the normal solution to any problem is turning to a caster (which is the driving force behind E6).
Rogue, Fighter, and Core Monk all lag in combat compared to most classes and still don't have any utility. "Fighter" being the most common example of "guy with sword hits things until they can't hit them anymore past level 12", and "Rogue" being the default worst designed class in Pathfinder (taking over for core Monk in 3.5). This is acknowledged in Pathfinder unchained where core monk and all rogues got a buff with Rogues clearly getting the much larger buff from its core class.
The one that leaps to mind from personal experience is the old "collapsing dungeon" chestnut.
Harmless bit of drama if you have some teleportation magic on hand to watch the dungeon collapse as you high-tail it out of there, quite possibly a TPK if you can't teleport out unless your GM feels like leaving a secret escape hatch you can get to pronto instead of trying to get out the huge maze the way you came.
How can a fantasy sword-man reasonably bypass that?
How can a fantasy sword-man reasonably bypass that?
For the fighter, make him so strong that he can not only survive the collapse, but dig his way out of it.
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I ran a game recently with 8-10th level characters. The party was told they needed to make their way to a city about a weeks worth of travel away.
After the party discussed how they would do such a thing for about five minutes without an answer, I had one of the NPC questgivers sigh, glance exasperatedly at the other (who had said the party needed to make their own arrangements), and offer to arrange passage for them from her organization.
The travel wasn't at all relevant to the adventure, so I used that moment to speed things along and get to the real part of the scenario. But I think it highlighted the differing expectations people have about the game.
How can a fantasy sword-man reasonably bypass that?For the fighter, make him so strong that he can not only survive the collapse, but dig his way out of it.
He can't normally do that? If not I'm s+#!ty at being a GM because I have Barbarians going through walls all the time. Sure air is a bigger problem but they can hold their breath better due to big Con and Fort saves.
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He can't normally do that?
If he has enough hp, he's fine with the collapse part, and holding his breath is something that also has actual rules for it. But how long does it take you to dig your way out of a collapse? How does Str affect that time? The rules are either silent, contradictory, or both, depending on what edition you're playing, so it mostly boils down to DM fiat.
And that's the problem: martials have to rely on the DM's generosity when it comes to doing anything other than stab stuff. Casters have those abilities spelled out in the rules.