If you read the rules text and ignore the flavor text, miracle works exactly the way Anzyr says it does...
Part of his beef is that deities don't follow the same laws of the multiverse as, well, mythic-characters-who-are-essentially-deities. Which is either an oversight or an inconsistency.
The word "request" is used multiple times in the spells description. If it was just that first sentence, maybe it would be flavor text. It's not, though; in fact, the spell goes out of its way to remind you that YOU'RE not really in charge here.
Little worried for anzyr... Anyway deities have some rules text here and there, but it's regularly repeated that paizo will never stat out a god.
Divinely Morphic
Specific unique beings (deities or similar great powers) have the ability to alter objects, creatures, and the landscape on planes with this trait. They may cause these areas to change instantly and dramatically, creating great kingdoms for themselves. Ordinary characters find these planes similar to alterable planes in that they may be affected by spells and physical effort.
Why does all this even matter? The acts of gods are thinly veiled GM fiat that have practically no rules basis beyond rule 0. Debating what the RAW powers of gods are is just a stupid conversation to be having.
It's highlighting the fundamental difference between a game and a story hour.
If the gods can do anything the DM says, including override everything else, then all cause and effect in the game ultimately devolve to DM fiat. The rules hold if and only if the DM doesn't decide to suspend them on a whim. Some would argue that, at that point, they might as well be abandoned altogether.
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Why does all this even matter? The acts of gods are thinly veiled GM fiat that have practically no rules basis beyond rule 0. Debating what the RAW powers of gods are is just a stupid conversation to be having.It's highlighting the fundamental difference between a game and a story hour.
If the gods can do anything the DM says, including override everything else, then all cause and effect in the game ultimately devolve to DM fiat. The rules hold if and only if the DM doesn't decide to suspend them on a whim. Some would argue that, at that point, they might as well be abandoned altogether.
You just described, possibly ironically, the entire problem with reconciling a belief in miracles with belief in systems of rules/extra-personal order, like, I dunno...physics.
Just "doing stuff" with "miracles" because god does feel terribly arbitrary. On the other hand, giving your god a stat block will inevitably lead to some rules lawyer "figuring out" how to kill him with a fat wad of explosive runes, so maybe we're just better off embracing the mystery.
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Why does all this even matter? The acts of gods are thinly veiled GM fiat that have practically no rules basis beyond rule 0. Debating what the RAW powers of gods are is just a stupid conversation to be having.It's highlighting the fundamental difference between a game and a story hour.
If the gods can do anything the DM says, including override everything else, then all cause and effect in the game ultimately devolve to DM fiat. The rules hold if and only if the DM doesn't decide to suspend them on a whim. Some would argue that, at that point, they might as well be abandoned altogether.
Saying that the gods have phenomenal cosmic power does not take away from the ability and agency of the players unless said power is wielded on the PCs by a bad GM. Remember, even if a god can do anything, there's other gods on their level who might not like their 'colleagues' screwing with reality in that way.
Hm... What is a Golarion deity capable of doing, and how much of it could a level 20 spellcaster replicate?
Just as the light grows to what would normally be blinding level, the PCs suddenly find themselves in what appears to be a vast cathedral. The PCs have been transported into Iomedae's realm in heaven(...)
Iomedae starts off by moving the party to her personal plane - no save or other evasion to resist the shift is described. This effect seems better than a Plane Shift since she decides the precise arrival location and does not need to hold hands. In that sense it's similar to Gate but less permanent, so I'd peg it somewhere in the spell level 7-8 bracket. A wizard could emulate it with an enlarged reach Plane Shift (to a very small plane) or a Gate spell.
while their time here feels no different than elsewhere, their entire meeting with the Inheritor takes only a few moments. When it's over, if they wish to return to Golarion to tie up loose ends, less than a second of time has passed.
The meeting can drag on for a while depending on how much the party RPs, and the PC members are able to interact with both Iomedae and one another. A wizard could pull this off by plane shifting the party to a plane with the erratic time trait. 1 round = 24 hours would mean that 1 second spent on the material plane would be roughly six four hours on the pocket plane.
a PC must attempt a DC 40 Will save, with failure meaning the PC must avert his gaze from Iomedae.
I wouldn't be surprised if there is a spell that emulates this, to be honest. Reverse Lock Gaze? As a custom spell this seems like a level 5 effect tops.
(...)a deafening trumpet blast echoes through the cathedral. Those who do not mock her hear the blast but are unharmed,while those who triggered the blast are permanently deafened. Furthermore, these characters must succeed at a D C 40 Will save to resist being struck forever mute-this condition is permanent and cannot be removed save by a deity's will.
The effects (Mute, Deaf) aren't that hard to replicate, though the AoE form and that it's all happening at once is. Selective Quickened Deafness combined with Steal Breath?
A searing blast of divine light fills the cathedral. This blast is visible but harmless to those who have not attacked her. Attackers must succeed at a D C 40 Fortitude save t o resist being reduced t o -1 hit points (such victims are automatically stabilized) and then be returned to Golarion. On a successful save, targets are merely returned to Golarion, but in both cases they are permanently blinded-this blindness can be removed only by a deity's will.
Basically a selective blast, though being able to automatically stabilize at -1 irregardless of original HP is again hard to replicate. Mass Harm Plus combined with a reach Plane Shift.
A moment later, the sound of the choir blasts out from all directions, causing each PC to shudder and shake in divinely inspired awe, and dealing 5d6 points of sonic damage to each PC (Fortitude DC 25 half).
Shout. Enough said.
Failure: Iomedae frowns and commands her choir to "awaken the heroes" again, only this time the damage increases to 10d6 points of sonic damage (Fortitude DC 25 half). As before, she allows the PCs the chance to heal this damage before going on to the next question.
Greater Shout. Enough said.
Iomedae grants each of them the ability to cast atonement as a spell-like ability (CL 20)-this is a one-time boon, and once used it does not recharge.
Hm... Effectively a Greater Imbue With Spell Ability spell. I don't think you can pull this off with the current rules, but the effect itself seems well within the scope of 9th level spell power.
Failure: Iomedae frowns and commands her choir to "awaken the heroes" one more time , only this time the blast of sound deals 20d6 points of sonic damage (Fortitude DC 25 half).
This one's a little trickier, since Intensified Greater Shout caps out at 15d6. At the moment I can't think of a way to pull off 20d6 sonic damage, though as a custom spell I think it's safely within the scope of a 9th level spell.
Her third question answered, Iomedae waves her hand and all damage the PCs might have taken from incorrect answers is immediately healed-PCs who perished are restored to life as if by true resurrection with no loss of level.
Hm... Mass Heal handles the damage, and True Resurrection handles the resurrections. The tricky part here is emulating the action economy (with a single wave of her hand), not the spells. A greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken Spell Greater Heal and a Wish spell for an instant-cast Greater Resurrection would work if only one character died, if not you'd need multiple rounds.
With that, the cathedral flashes white once again, and an instant later the PCs have returned to where they left the Material Plane. Yet in each of their hands is a simple token: a bronze holy symbol of Iomedae. Each PC knows that he need but hold the symbol in a fist and concentrate to be transported into the Ivory Labyrinth
Yet again, enlarged reach plane shift Plus. The tokens appear to be magical items that cast Plane Plane Shift magical items.
One thing that's important to keep in mind is that this is a deity who's not going all-out, the effects used here are intended to be "casual" demonstrations of power. With that said, I honestly think that a caster* who can reliably cast from a 9th level spell list and has enough resources could emulate just about anything that was done in that section.
It's highlighting the fundamental difference between a game and a story hour.
Player 1: Hey, you got your story in my game!
GM: And you got your game in my story!
Player & GM: Hey! This is pretty great with both together!
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Otherwhere -- the problem is when they don't interact. When you really want a chocolate shake, it's somehow not as satisfying to drink a glass of milk, eat some ice cream, and then chug some chocolate syrup.
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First off, nobody should have 2+Int for skills. That is like a punishment. The minimum should be 4+Int. This would allow a fighter to get some utility skills as well as flavor skills each level.
The concept of an adventurer who has devoted himself not to woodcraft, not to a holy mission, not to his internal fiery rage, but only and exclusively to his skill at fighting is a compelling one. Instead of giving fighters static bonuses to weapon to hit and armor use, and a plethora of feats (many of which have a gatekeeper stat (Int 13) that is of little use to the Fighter otherwise), give the fighter a selection of abilities that can expand his influence on the game and develop the character's style and idiom. The only existing system I can compare it to would be rogue talents, only good. Abilities unique to fighters. abilities to compensate for the systematic supremacy of two handed weapons.
This one is a duelist. This one a sword and shield fighter. This one fetishizes one weapon in particular. This one is a master of all. This one is fast. This one jumps. This one is nimble. This one is immovable. This one has an impressive physique. This one is covered in intimidating scars. This one has connections all over. This one is a dirty fighter. This one is about criticals. This one is about raw damage output. You want to make some archetypes with supernatural abilities, or maybe use Ki, or Grit, or Panache, or just add them to the list? Knock yourself out. Give fighters a bag of tricks to choose from that is exclusive to them.
Once they get into the high teens, the fighter's tricks need to be pretty impressive. The notion that fighters need to be the one class in the whole game with no metaphysical aspect is ridiculous. there are plenty of fighters in a variety of cultural traditions (including the western knight/Arthurian tradition) who were capable of superhuman feats. The game needs those abilities. You don't like that? Don't choose those abilities. The preferences of a minority should not keep one of the core classes woefully unbalanced.
...Hm... What is a Golarion deity capable of doing, and how much of it could a level 20 spellcaster replicate?
** spoiler omitted **
Don't forget the one status effect you listed which is fixable ONLY by a god. That's hefty stuff.
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I love your screen name, but it makes me feel dirty.
Ugh... do we have to consider Wrath of the Righteous canon in a deity discussion? Iomedae is a complete unforgivable psychopath in that book. It's like they confused lawful evil and lawful good in writing that.
I absolutely agree that Iomedae doesn't come out smelling like roses after that RP event, but if we put aside the RP concerns it's mostly interesting because we can study the effects a deity can pull off. I considered posting Deskari's stat block but I'm guessing the immediate response would be "that's a DEMI-god, not a GOD".
Mainly, I found it amusing that just about everything Iomedae does in that encounter is within the expected power level of a 20th level spellcaster.
Arguably, not being bound by the same rules as lesser beings is what makes the gods actually gods and not merely high CR outsiders.
I did like how 4E (a system where the PCs could explicitly challenge and kill gods) handled statting up deities -- dieties could only actually be killed after satisfying some sort of plot objective specific to each diety, and the dieties usually got to "cheat" in some way - a diety would frequently have a mechanic that simply violated how the game normally worked.
Tiamat got 5 turns a round; Lolth inflicted status effects that couldn't be cured if you were trying to fight her; Vecna actually gained a bonus interrupt action whenever a PC spent an action point; and so on.
Just something sort of cheerfully mean.
Heh. Now, for Pathfinder there is a fairly obvious limit on what gods can do - which is that they apparently can't do anything of an opposing alignment descriptor.
Asmodeus might be able to terraform an entire solar system with a wave of his hand, but he can't actually cast protection from evil =P
Hmmm. A couple other examples of divine intervention in other works...
Urgathoa's kind of a jerk.
It's probably worth noting that the boss of book 4, a dark young of Shub-Niggurath, doesn't even exist yet at the time of this vision, and the bosses of books 5 and 6 haven't yet attained the states (vampire and forsaken lich, respectively) the party will face them in.
That's... a bit beyond what a 9th level spell could do =P
And there's also Mythic Adventures - the playtest adventure (which is part of the final book) kicks off with Erastil casually granting the PCs multiple mythic tiers so they can go stop a volcano.
Scale, speed, and range are pretty much part and parcel of the gap between an actual god and a demigod/powerful mortal.
Years of work by a wizard with an army of snowcone wish machines can be duplicated (or undone) by a god as a standard action, barring that wizard securing himself some patronage =P
Gods can meddle with unclaimed turf or their own followers, but generally seemed barred from taking overtly hostile action against each other's followers, outside of special circumstances (like if the party in WotR are a bunch of twits that attack or trash-talk Iomedae while standing face to face with her =P)
The much lower DC on the "choir" effects implies that's actually something separate from her - possibly a manifestation (see Hell Unleashed) that just follows her around?
Mainly, I found it amusing that just about everything Iomedae does in that encounter is within the expected power level of a 20th level spellcaster.I would say a mythic spellcaster. DC40 is not an easy DC to reach.
It's not easy, but it's not especially hard either even without mythic.
It's not easy, but it's not especially hard either even without mythic.Mainly, I found it amusing that just about everything Iomedae does in that encounter is within the expected power level of a 20th level spellcaster.I would say a mythic spellcaster. DC40 is not an easy DC to reach.
I'm not sure you are using the same definition of "hard" as the rest of us, sir.
I'm not sure you are using the same definition of "hard" as the rest of us, sir.It's not easy, but it's not especially hard either even without mythic.Mainly, I found it amusing that just about everything Iomedae does in that encounter is within the expected power level of a 20th level spellcaster.I would say a mythic spellcaster. DC40 is not an easy DC to reach.
DC 40, depending on the skill, is childs play.
If we're talking stealth or perception then I wouldn't be surprised to see a player reliably hit 40 just past 10 if they were willing to spend some wealth on it.
Oh, ok. I thought the highest one could get a save DC would be something like 35?
What's the highest you've ever seen a player save score to be?
How much mental stats the "God" template gives to you? :p
Oh, ok. I thought the highest one could get a save DC would be something like 35?
What's the highest you've ever seen a player save score to be?
35 is super easy.
10 - Base
+9 - Spell Level
+16 - Casting Stat
= DC 35
Now if you get your Casting stat to +17, add in Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, tack in Spell Perfection to double those and why not add a Witch Token for:
10 - Base
+9 - Spell Level
+17 - Cast Stat
+2 - Spell Focus
+2 - Greater Spell Focus
+1 Witch Token
DC 41
Off the top of my head. And non-race/class specific.
Okay. I was figuring it would only be with a single spell.
Getting DC 40+ all the time is a bit harder =P
Edit: @ Kyrt-Ryder - age adjustment and probably abusing simulacrum to get Profane Ascension from a snow Nocticula
You're going to have to explain getting a casting stat that high Anzyr, the standard is +12 to +13
A profane boon from a simulacrum of some kind of succubus demon is involved, I know that much.
45 (18 +2 Race +3 Age +5 Level +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +6 Profane)
Profane is from Nocticula's Profane Ascension. The rest is the usual.
Okay. I was figuring it would only be with a single spell.
Getting DC 40+ all the time is a bit harder =P
Edit: @ Kyrt-Ryder - age adjustment and probably abusing simulacrum to get Profane Ascension from a snow Nocticula
One trick is to intentionally not select Spell Perfection so that you can select it with Paragon Surge, making it DC 41 within your Spell Focus school.
Oh wow, +6 to one stat and +4 to another [and sight in all darkness including magical] for getting laid. Not bad Paizo, not bad.
Don't forget that Nocticula can cast through you for action free (for you) CL 30 Blasphemy.
Okay. I was figuring it would only be with a single spell.
Getting DC 40+ all the time is a bit harder =P
Edit: @ Kyrt-Ryder - age adjustment and probably abusing simulacrum to get Profane Ascension from a snow Nocticula
Which is where having a GM comes in who can look over all this and say no.
As for the deity question, I would think it is as hard to say what they cannot do as much as what they can. You have no basis to work with. Maybe they all have 20 class levels in every class. They are left purposely vague.
45 (18 +2 Race +3 Age +5 Level +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +6 Profane)
Profane is from Nocticula's Profane Ascension. The rest is the usual.
One trick is to intentionally not select Spell Perfection so that you can select it with Paragon Surge, making it DC 41 within your Spell Focus school.Okay. I was figuring it would only be with a single spell.
Getting DC 40+ all the time is a bit harder =P
Edit: @ Kyrt-Ryder - age adjustment and probably abusing simulacrum to get Profane Ascension from a snow Nocticula
Though that defaults the trick to half-elf only, unless your GM lets you ignore racial restrictions on spells.
I'm not sure if stuff that's super-restrictive and/or dependent on GM good will to work is quite the same as "not hard" =P
Sudden mean GM thought - perhaps someone getting a profane ascension through a simulacrum still opens themselves to all the ways the real Nocticula can mess with them. After all, the ability is phrased as "Nocticula can" ...
And it's really a CL40 Blasphemy, if it's the real Nocticula casting it from her realm (where she has the mythic version of all of her SLAs). The mythic alignment word spells are brutal to non-mythic targets.
(Note that you're not immune to the possibly mythic blasphemy if you aren't actually evil yourself =P)
The strangest thing about this is that the "God Wizard" isn't that wizards are canonically gods in Pathfinder, but the term coined by a popular core wizard build.
The term was coined long before Pathfinder existed. I've heard it at least as far back as the 3.0 days. The build is named after the pre-existing concept.
Yes, there has been a martial/caster discussion going on since about three minutes after magic users were a class option.
Yes, there has been a martial/caster discussion going on since about three minutes after magic users were a class option.
You think it took that long?
Yes, there has been a martial/caster discussion going on since about three minutes after magic users were a class option.You think it took that long?
It took a couple of levels at least.
We could ask DrDeth.
It took a couple of levels at least.Yes, there has been a martial/caster discussion going on since about three minutes after magic users were a class option.You think it took that long?
You presume nobody looked at the spell lists, then looked at the Fighting Man class and said "So wait.. one guy gets to make the world suck his ****, and the other just hits stuff?"
[Granted back then being good at 'just hitting stuff' was a lot more restricted AND important than it is in 3.P]
I really did not see much of that in 1st edition. Magic Users only had that d4 hitpoints, and that very much evened things out. There was a need for the fighter to stand in the way of the squishy, so he had a real role. Also there were fewer spell slots available to the magic user. The disparity in usefulness was much smaller.
Yeah - d4 was ridiculously fragile, but did make the d10's really needed.
1HP per level doesn't seem that much
didn't martial have the d8 actually? I remember rogues having the d6
1HP per level doesn't seem that much
didn't martial have the d8 actually? I remember rogues having the d6
Fighter and Paladin had d10
Druid, Monk, Cleric, and Ranger had d8 (ranger had 2d8 at 1st)Thief and Assassin had d6
Magic User and Illusionist had d4
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d8 martials was BECMI.
The real killer for casters was the full round casting time. If they got hit, they lost the spell.
That's a REAL evener. You can't move, the enemy can, they can throw stuff at you, and if they hit, you're screwed...you lose the spell and your action was worthless.
Staves and wands were actually useful because they could be used in combat without that risk.
Plus, saves got BETTER with level, not worse. Trying to use save or dies against high level foes was a laugh. They'd save on a 2+. An 18th level mage going up against a Fighter better be using no-save spells and have a LOT of interference, because otherwise the Fighter was just going to plow through everything, and murder him in 2 rounds or so.
it was a different game.
==Aelryinth