I also like how his plan to screw with the power source of the gods hinges on successfully using Contact Other Plane billions upon billions of times.
Reading helps provide clarity. Because he has a back-up to that.
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My response to 4 and 5 both tie to his response to the somewhat reasonable response of a person dying who goes, "But this is what I worked for..."
You're in a way correct that no one can avoid Pharasma's judgement (2), but again, just being despotic isn't necessarily evil. By itself. And seizing control of something that important is despotic.
3, again, we're in agreement--ambition by itself is not evil.
As for 1...if you don't think someone deciding, "I've come to the conclusion that this is a bad thing, and I will impose this on the rest of the universe no matter what others think or tell me, despite 'bad thing' being subjective," displays "a condition or mental illness that causes people to think that they have great or unlimited power or importance" then I don't know what does. Except maybe his plan for carrying it out.
But people can control where they go. It is fairly comon knowledge that doing X will get you to Y in the afterlife, so they can choose to go for Y, but of course there are many options for the afterlife. Ark is basically saying "you can't have an afterlife ever. You live or you exist in the worst prison ever. I don't care what you want."
Also, isn't miracle asking for a deity's intervention? So why would a deity intervene for Ark when Ark is basically attacking the gods (though indirectly)?
Also, isn't miracle asking for a deity's intervention? So why would a deity intervene for Ark when Ark is basically attacking the gods (though indirectly)?
No no no, remember, gods don't actually exist because they don't have stat blocks. Miracle just happens, because it's on a piece of paper in our universe. No divine influence needed for that or any other divine spell.
My response to 4 and 5 both tie to his response to the somewhat reasonable response of a person dying who goes, "But this is what I worked for..."
It uh... isn't though. Pharasma decides where you go regardless of those things. You don't have to work or anything because Pharasma doesn't reward or punish you.
But people can control where they go. It is fairly comon knowledge that doing X will get you to Y in the afterlife, so they can choose to go for Y, but of course there are many options for the afterlife. Ark is basically saying "you can't have an afterlife ever. You live or you exist in the worst prison ever. I don't care what you want."
Also, isn't miracle asking for a deity's intervention? So why would a deity intervene for Ark when Ark is basically attacking the gods (though indirectly)?
They can do things that are likely to get them sent some place or another by Pharasma sure. But they don't actually have any control over it. And Miracle works regardless of deities. Ideals function equally well to grant Miracles.
...I mean, your soul (if it makes it to Pharasma) is sent to the plane that most matches your alignment, so...she does sort of reward or punish you, though it's more like sending you home than anything else.
How is Arkalion dealing with every 20th level cleric in existence? Surely clerics have stat blocks.
If gods have no power, why is Arkalion stopping souls from going to them?
If gods have no power, what ultimate goal does Arkalion hope to accomplish?
At this point, it seems like he's just doing what he's doing to be a jerk.
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Personally, I kind of want to see what would happen if somebody got a thousand genies to Wish eternal failure on this plan.
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...I mean, your soul (if it makes it to Pharasma) is sent to the plane that most matches your alignment, so...
Exactly...
Pherasma does not just for S&G's "switch things up" every now and then and send a soul who was Chaotic Evil in life to "heaven" or a soul who was Lawful Good to "hell"; those souls are sent to their appropriate afterlives...
And if within the game, your characters have an actual choice of what alignment you want them to be, then YES, the character (or rather the player) does have a choice as to where the character's soul ends up.
How is Arkalion dealing with every 20th level cleric in existence? Surely clerics have stat blocks.
If gods have no power, why is Arkalion stopping souls from going to them?
If gods have no power, what ultimate goal does Arkalion hope to accomplish?
At this point, it seems like he's just doing what he's doing to be a jerk.
That really depends on whether the Clerics attack him. If they do they tend to be on the receiving end of massed Explosive Runes + Soul Bind.
And the reason Arkalion is doing this is because it's part of his backstory. And you should know he's reason by now. And it's not to be a jerk.
...I mean, your soul (if it makes it to Pharasma) is sent to the plane that most matches your alignment, so...Exactly...
Pherasma does not just for S&G's "switch things up" every now and then and send a soul who was Chaotic Evil in life to "heaven" or a soul who was Lawful Good to "hell"; those souls are sent to their appropriate afterlives...
And if within the game, your characters have an actual choice of what alignment you want them to be, then YES, the character (or rather the player) does have a choice as to where the character's soul ends up.
Except they don't. Ultimately Pharasma decides. The choice is never in their hands. The same is true with Arkalion.
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Woo, explosive runes makes an appearance!
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Ultimately Pharasma decides. The choice is never in their hands.
Does Pharasma send souls to an afterlife not appropriate to their alignment?
Are you in fact saying Pharasma does not judge souls properly, and just willy-nilly sends them where-ever; regardless of what alignment they were in life?
If so, then I could agree with you, but since Pharasma only sends souls to the appropriate afterlife, unless compelled to do otherwise for very specific reasons, I have to disagree...
Ultimately Pharasma decides. The choice is never in their hands.Does Pharasma send souls to an afterlife not appropriate to their alignment?
Are you in fact saying Pharasma does not judge souls properly, and just willy-nilly sends them where-ever; regardless of what alignment they were in life?
If so, then I could agree with you, but since Pharasma only sends souls to the appropriate afterlife, unless compelled to do otherwise for very specific reasons, I have to disagree...
That's not the relevant factor here. The issue is that she is the one who decides. The same is true for Arkalion.
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How is Arkalion dealing with every 20th level cleric in existence? Surely clerics have stat blocks.
If gods have no power, why is Arkalion stopping souls from going to them?
If gods have no power, what ultimate goal does Arkalion hope to accomplish?
At this point, it seems like he's just doing what he's doing to be a jerk.
That really depends on whether the Clerics attack him. If they do they tend to be on the receiving end of massed Explosive Runes + Soul Bind.
And the reason Arkalion is doing this is because it's part of his backstory. And you should know he's reason by now. And it's not to be a jerk.
So you've just decided that whoever comes after you automatically loses. Because you have an infinite number of explosive runes nukes stored somewhere that level 20 clerics are incapable of dealing with.
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That's not the relevant factor here.
It is the player who determines a PCs actions in life, and those actions have an in-game effect/consequence on where that character's soul goes in the afterlife, and that IS a conscience choice made by the character through the player. It is different for an NPC as the GM just determines things however he wants/needs, but the player's character is a living entity within the game world, and the player's actions are how the character effects and interacts within the game world around him.
If the player decides to have his character be an evil bastard, how would Pharasma judge him? Where would his soul go? His actions in life are his choices in the afterlife for good or ill.
Can someone cite an official source that going to Heaven, Nirvana, or any other such non-evil-aligned plane is a torturous experience for the departed soul? I'm under the impression that those places are generally pretty nice, and if that's the case, Arkalion's plan is fundamentally flawed.
No they can't. Even if they are Golarion Atheists they cannot opt out Pharasma's judgment.Arkalion only intervenes in a singular matter that people have no choice in anyway...They do have a choice - they can opt-out via "atheism" or act in various ways in the justified belief their soul will be sent to the appropriate afterlife. Arkalion tries to give them no choice.
Your claim was "Arkalion only intervenes in a singular matter that people have no choice in" and, in fact, he intervenes in the matter of what happens to their souls when they die - which they do have a choice in. I dont know where you get the idea that Pharasma just "decides" - she determines which plane matches their alignment but their behaviour decides what their alignment it - she doesnt send LG people to CE afterlives and she doesnt send atheists anywhere (if that's their choice).
Note that your bolded defence is incorrect anyway (as well as not addressing the point of being denied choice-of-afterlife) - they can opt out of being judged by Pharasma - they can do exactly what Arkalion is foisting on everyone. So that's another difference between Pharasma and Arkalion - she doesnt stop people opting out of the process she's a part of but Arkalion does prevent people opting out of his (and thus his victims have no right to determining their soul's destiny the way they would under Pharasma's judgement).
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Can someone cite an official source that going to Heaven, Nirvana, or any other such non-evil-aligned plane is a torturous experience for the departed soul?
I think I have figured this out!
Arkalion only intervenes in a singular matter that people have no choice in anyway...
The only instances where the person dying has no real choice in the matter is that spell (can't remember the name, please chime in if you know which one I mean) that, if it kills someone, automatically sends them to Hell.
This obviously is a torturous experience for the departing soul.
Obviously, Arkalion only interferes when a death is the direct consequence of the use of that spell.
For what it's worth, based on her descriptions in ISWG and Pathfinderwiki, I would classify Pharasma as borderline Evil at BEST, and quite possibly fully in the deep end. Obviously, she is stated to be neutral in the books, but I'm basing that identification of her alignment on the description of her lore and beliefs, ignoring the part of her entry which explicitly states she is true neutral.
To clarify, I mean that, were I to read about Pharasma's lore without seeing the "Alignment: N" line, I would think she was almost certainly evil. Given the highly subjective nature of alignment, there is of course room for people (including whoever wrote the description of Pharasma XD) to disagree.Point being, Anzyr's argument that his character is similar to Pharasma is actually helping convince me that his character is Evil.
Which, I suppose, is another reason for me to try using Arkalion as a BBEG:)
He has the benefit here of actually having people's best interests in mind something Pharasma sorely lacks and while his methodology is not dissimilar from her own, it's the only method available for protecting people's souls. Largely from Pharasma. I feel the need to point out, I agree with you on Pharasma being pretty sketchy as Neutral, and that Arkalion is most decidedly not Good. However, given that he is trying to protect people and is using the only means he has available, rather then literally running the show, he fits quite snugly into Neutral.
And... what's the actual point of this character? Is he to be a PC, or used as an NPC for plot reasons? A solo game, or with other people? Or is he simply a thought experiment, never meant to be played?
It was initially a PC-build challenge, so more a theoretical "what can you do using RAW" exercise. Unusually (I guess?) Anzyr included the backstory.
Who's going to protect people from being reincarnated or soul trapped?
How is Arkalion dealing with every 20th level cleric in existence? Surely clerics have stat blocks.
If gods have no power, why is Arkalion stopping souls from going to them?
If gods have no power, what ultimate goal does Arkalion hope to accomplish?
At this point, it seems like he's just doing what he's doing to be a jerk.
That really depends on whether the Clerics attack him. If they do they tend to be on the receiving end of massed Explosive Runes + Soul Bind.
And the reason Arkalion is doing this is because it's part of his backstory. And you should know he's reason by now. And it's not to be a jerk.
Wait, wait, wait. So let me get this straight. Let's say a 20th level Cleric of Cayden Cailean (or multiple, for the sake of argument) decides that Arky here is going a little too Third Reich-ish on a cosmic scale, and is removing any sort of choice that a person has in their ultimate destination. They think that people deserve to go to their final destinations, because, you know, they've actively worked to earn whatever they've tried to get for themselves. So they try to do the sensible good thing, and talk him out of it.
Of course, this is going to inevitably fail, because I sincerely doubt that someone who's going to dump millions of GP and a metric crapton of time into a plan like this will just give up because some people try to talk him into it. And, even with a Diplomacy roll, something tells me that you can't talk a cleric out of his faith. And so, for the good of freedom, individual rights, and heavenly ale, they decide that Arkalion has to go down. But as soon as Arkalion gets wind of their desire to kill him for the good of ALL OF THE G$+-D~~N MULTIVERSE (perceived by them, of course), he kills them and traps their souls forever. Because if there's one thing Neutral individuals are known for, it's killing people who disagree with them, and trapping their souls for all eternity so that they can never again question your logic. That sounds like an awfully familiar sort of mindset to me....
Also, there's something amusing how you didn't address what I find to be the most important part or Legrande's question. Namely, if the Gods don't actually have any power (which, by your own logic from several different posts, they don't) then why is Arkalion actually trying to stop them?
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Okay, I've skimmed over this thread and I want to chime in.
As far as I can tell, in Pathfinder, when you die you become a petitioner on the plane of your alignment, with the possibility to transcend to a higher ranking outsider. Part of this process is losing most if not all of your memories when you become a petitioner and again each time you transcend. If you die as an outsider the parts of your soul will flow back to the positive energy plane where the broken souls will form new souls that are reborn on the material plane.
That kinda sucks, and I can see how Reincarnation is the better option. Trapping souls to prevent them from reaching the afterlive is evil though, no matter how you put it.
In Abrahamic religions, being with God is the purpose of living, as humans where created for that purpose. In Golarion there doesn't seem to be a theological reason to follow a god, except for that thing Pharasma does with atheists/dystheists. So I can see that an alternative would be welcomed by some individuals, and I see no reason for Arkalion not gaining a large amount of followers.