On the nature of Evil


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This is a spin-off thread regarding the nature of evil, souls, and world domination. This has been brought up from Anzyr's posts regarding the character Arkalion and his grand cycle. I'll let Anzyr post, if he will, the character's idea on whether or not he is evil, neutral or good so as not to color his motives.


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Arkalion dislikes the present management of the afterlife system so he is going around to Prime material planes so he can incorporate them in what he calls the "Grand Cycle". The Grand Cycle is endless loop of reincarnation governed by Arkalion himself. The main upside (in his opinion) is that by keeping souls endlessly within the cycle, it deprives the planes, outsiders (like devils and demons) and gods from gaining any power from those souls.

Getting people to accept reincarnation is easy. Particularly, if you can make the kind of Diplomacy rolls a level 20 full caster can. And being Neutral, Arkalion has methods for dealing with those who don't. To be specific, using Soul Bind if Reincarnation isn't accepted.

Seems pretty straight forward Neutral. Of course by definition that means he is "Not Good", but don't confuse that for Evil. Compare to another powerful Neutral spellcaster Nethys.


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Even if he is evil, it's really not a bad deal when the alternative is having your personality destroyed while your soul is slowly turned into a tool of the deity whose property you landed on.


Serghar Cromwell wrote:
Even if he is evil, it's really not a bad deal when the alternative is having your personality destroyed while your soul is slowly turned into a tool of the deity whose property you landed on.

Exactly, since his motivation is to prevent that from happening to people, seems pretty neutral overall.


Anzyr wrote:

Arkalion dislikes the present management of the afterlife system so he is going around to Prime material planes so he can incorporate them in what he calls the "Grand Cycle". The Grand Cycle is endless loop of reincarnation governed by Arkalion himself. The main upside (in his opinion) is that by keeping souls endlessly within the cycle, it deprives the planes, outsiders (like devils and demons) and gods from gaining any power from those souls.

Getting people to accept reincarnation is easy. Particularly, if you can make the kind of Diplomacy rolls a level 20 full caster can. And being Neutral, Arkalion has methods for dealing with those who don't. To be specific, using Soul Bind if Reincarnation isn't accepted.

I don't think you get Diplomacy rolls. You cast Reincarnation on the recently dead person. The soul decides to come back or not. You don't get to talk to it.

If you're approaching live people and killing them and trapping their souls unless they agree to be Reincarnated whenever they die, that's even more evil. Nor would that agreement be in anyway binding when they finally do die.


I will be interested to see if this thread get locked with the same rationale of "Calling out people is not acceptible."


thejeff wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

Arkalion dislikes the present management of the afterlife system so he is going around to Prime material planes so he can incorporate them in what he calls the "Grand Cycle". The Grand Cycle is endless loop of reincarnation governed by Arkalion himself. The main upside (in his opinion) is that by keeping souls endlessly within the cycle, it deprives the planes, outsiders (like devils and demons) and gods from gaining any power from those souls.

Getting people to accept reincarnation is easy. Particularly, if you can make the kind of Diplomacy rolls a level 20 full caster can. And being Neutral, Arkalion has methods for dealing with those who don't. To be specific, using Soul Bind if Reincarnation isn't accepted.

I don't think you get Diplomacy rolls. You cast Reincarnation on the recently dead person. The soul decides to come back or not. You don't get to talk to it.

If you're approaching live people and killing them and trapping their souls unless they agree to be Reincarnated whenever they die, that's even more evil. Nor would that agreement be in anyway binding when they finally do die.

When they are still alive obviously. Thanks to his high diplomacy bonus (+ moment of prescience) holdouts are rare. And he'll know if you don't accept the reincarnate.


Tormsskull wrote:
I will be interested to see if this thread get locked with the same rationale of "Calling out people is not acceptible."

Hopefully not. This issue is far more wide-spread than one person's character. We have seen similar conversations crop up around the chaotic neutral alignment, paladin threads and more.

It's easy to say that your character isn't evil or chaotic crazy or that your lawful good paladin would totally slaughter the innocents of an evil race. But should your opinion matter or should that of your fellow players and observers? After all, I don't think that Asmodeus believes he is doing evil or that mobsters, for example, believe what they are doing is wrong.


Anzyr wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

Arkalion dislikes the present management of the afterlife system so he is going around to Prime material planes so he can incorporate them in what he calls the "Grand Cycle". The Grand Cycle is endless loop of reincarnation governed by Arkalion himself. The main upside (in his opinion) is that by keeping souls endlessly within the cycle, it deprives the planes, outsiders (like devils and demons) and gods from gaining any power from those souls.

Getting people to accept reincarnation is easy. Particularly, if you can make the kind of Diplomacy rolls a level 20 full caster can. And being Neutral, Arkalion has methods for dealing with those who don't. To be specific, using Soul Bind if Reincarnation isn't accepted.

I don't think you get Diplomacy rolls. You cast Reincarnation on the recently dead person. The soul decides to come back or not. You don't get to talk to it.

If you're approaching live people and killing them and trapping their souls unless they agree to be Reincarnated whenever they die, that's even more evil. Nor would that agreement be in anyway binding when they finally do die.

When they are still alive obviously. Thanks to his high diplomacy bonus (+ moment of prescience) holdouts are rare. And he'll know if you don't accept the reincarnate.

But even if you say yes and mean it then, he still has to cast Reincarnate when you die and your soul could change its mind then. And you didn't make it clear whether you kill them right away if they refuse up front.

And seriously, this plan involves having individual persuasive individual conversations with everyone on a world? In addition to being present when each and every person dies.


There is really only one reason that what's being done is completely and utterly evil. That is, you are taking away a free thinking being's free will. There's no question that's exactly what is being done.

Edit: And denying souls to the outer planes so that your army of demon simulacra is all that's left...


I often disagree with Anzyr, but on this I think I agree completely with the assessment that it's not evil, though not necessarily good.

Sounds pretty neutral to me.


Fighting the gods and their long-running schemes to manipulate all mortals is a true act of good for humans and all other mortal races. :D

Course the good gods would not be pleased with him shutting down their manipulations and shattering their high interest bank accounts.

It is chaotic neutral as it is incredibly defiant against the existing faiths. They will probably see it as evil. It also allows people the freedom of opting out of existing arrangements that control them before they are born.

It is good in that it frees people, prevents their torment in the evil afterlife or their manipulation and absorption in the good.


It is evil to force a chioce under threat of severe consequences. If he merely offered, or asked for volunteers, then his assessment would be correct. It is the fact that he forces his way onto others that makes it evil.

For the result to be evil does not require individual actions to be evil. Evil can come from the combination of nonevil, or even fair actions.

A good example are corporations. In general corporations only take legal and usually fair actions, but add them all up qnd it seems rather evil for one or a few to get insanely rich by getting more money than they need from the people, despite each transaction being willing.

As for the doctor example, it may be law, but that does not equal ethical. It is also required, unless proper forms are filled, to protect doctors and hospitals from the surviving families who don't always respect the deceased's wishes and try to sue the doctors and hospitals. It isn't right, but it is a response to too many others doing what isn't right.

Also, Ark's reasons are subjective, they are based on his opinions, that may not be shared by others, or even if they agree, they may prefer other methods instead.

Also, diplomacy isn't a magic pill, and isn't always infallible regardless of score. No amount of chat will change my idea of my physical gender for example.


DM Under The Bridge wrote:

Fighting the gods and their long-running schemes to manipulate all mortals is a true act of good for humans and all other mortal races. :D

Course the good gods would not be pleased with him shutting down their manipulations and shattering their high interest bank accounts.

It is chaotic neutral as it is incredibly defiant against the existing faiths. They will probably see it as evil. It also allows people the freedom of opting out of existing arrangements that control them before they are born.

It is good in that it frees people, prevents their torment in the evil afterlife or their manipulation and absorption in the good.

What makes you think the afterlife is evil or tormenting?


TheAlicornSage wrote:

It is evil to force a chioce under threat of severe consequences. If he merely offered, or asked for volunteers, then his assessment would be correct. It is the fact that he forces his way onto others that makes it evil.

For the result to be evil does not require individual actions to be evil. Evil can come from the combination of nonevil, or even fair actions.

A good example are corporations. In general corporations only take legal and usually fair actions, but add them all up qnd it seems rather evil for one or a few to get insanely rich by getting more money than they need from the people, despite each transaction being willing.

As for the doctor example, it may be law, but that does not equal ethical. It is also required, unless proper forms are filled, to protect doctors and hospitals from the surviving families who don't always respect the deceased's wishes and try to sue the doctors and hospitals. It isn't right, but it is a response to too many others doing what isn't right.

Also, Ark's reasons are subjective, they are based on his opinions, that may not be shared by others, or even if they agree, they may prefer other methods instead.

Also, diplomacy isn't a magic pill, and isn't always infallible regardless of score. No amount of chat will change my idea of my physical gender for example.

Forcing your way onto others is not necessarily Evil. It is however, Lawful. It *can* be Evil, but is unlikely to be in this case as it is honestly in the person's best interests. Even the Soul Binds are not malevolent in nature and are merely a means to prevent someone who won't accept reincarnation from being tormented/manipulated.

TheAlicornSage wrote:


What makes you think the afterlife is evil or tormenting?

Read up on it and wait for the horror to sink in.


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It is still Ark's opinion that he is forcing onto others, which is evil and it depends on the gm for lawful.

Some say lawful means following the law or imposing order, but I disagree. In any case, while alignment is generally subjective, the good vs evil part is generally agreed upon by most peoples at the core, however, lawful vs chaotic is not and therefore a case can't really be made for that as in the real world law axis is subtle and not generally recognized as part of morality.

His opinion may not be evil, but his actions based on his opinion is evil. If people want to choose such torment, then that is their choice to make, not Ark's.


If forcing your opinions on others was Evil, then most governments are inherently Evil. Forcing your opinions on other is inherently Lawful, not Evil. Establishing Order requires you to force your opinion on others. Now forcing your opinions on others *can* be Evil, but not inherently. Therefore, his actions (in this case) are Lawful. He is making them conform with good intentions. In this aspect, Arkalion and most governments are largely the same.


Trying to convince people to give up the god and reincarnate isn't evil. But if they say now, and your response is to soulbind them, You are removing and individual's choice and free will. at which, yes..I would say that is evil.


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Anzyr wrote:
Establishing Order requires you to force your opinion on others. Now forcing your opinions on others *can* be Evil, but not inherently. Therefore, his actions (in this case) are Lawful. He is making them conform with good intentions.

I am completely gobsmacked how anyone could read this and not immediately think evil. This is as Hitleresque as you can get without actually being Hitler. Not only that, but this is straight out of the Sith handbook. This is the thinking of someone who should never, ever, ever, ever have the power to affect another person's life, ever.


And doing it for your own gain, I might add, as you mentioned before about this character wanting to replace a God. Though how they haven't stopped this by now ..


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knightnday wrote:
And doing it for your own gain, I might add, as you mentioned before about this character wanting to replace a God. Though how they haven't stopped this by now ..

This is what happens when a character is made at 20th level. If this character had been involved in any campaigns, I'd be willing to bet his own party would have killed him and destroyed his soul at level 5.


And speaking of never being able to affect another person's life, I know for sure that I don't want TheAlicornSage determining how much money any person needs. Jealousy is borderline evil and has an awful tendency to dance around on the wrong side of the line.


Simon Legrande wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Establishing Order requires you to force your opinion on others. Now forcing your opinions on others *can* be Evil, but not inherently. Therefore, his actions (in this case) are Lawful. He is making them conform with good intentions.
I am completely gobsmacked how anyone could read this and not immediately think evil. This is as Hitleresque as you can get without actually being Hitler. Not only that, but this is straight out of the Sith handbook. This is the thinking of someone who should never, ever, ever, ever have the power to affect another person's life, ever.

Hitler wasn't Evil because he imposed order. People impose order on each others lives in many different ways, every single day. Governments impose order on people intentionally and can coerce obedience due to their ability to use force. And Arkalion isn't doing it for his own gain. Reread his synopsis.


Anzyr's synopsis taken from the original thread wrote:

I actually had a premise for my character. Basically, he dislikes the present management of the afterlife system so he is going around to Prime material planes so he can incorporate them in what he calls the "Grand Cycle". The Grand Cycle is endless loop of reincarnation governed by Arkalion himself. The main upside (in his opinion) is that by keeping souls endlessly within the cycle, it deprives the planes, outsiders (like devils and demons) and gods from gaining any power from those souls. He believes that the more souls that can be added to the "Grand Cycle", the more powerful the Grand Cycle itself will become as it incrementally gains spiritual strength each time a cycle is completed.

This leads to one of the tactics he was going to use being called "Prison of Past Regrets", but alas it won't see use.

Bolded for emphasis. Governed by Arkalion seems to indicate for his own benefit. Depriving other Gods of worshipers and souls weakens them and perhaps increases the power of the Grand Cycle -- and I can only assume that there is a way that power can be used or bring one into being a God in the end. All of that seems to be for his benefit.

Whether the character convinces someone to give up their version of Heaven to go through this cycle or forces it upon them -- and if they refuse the "sandwich", they were given no choice as I recall -- they are having their choices and free will suppressed.


knightnday wrote:
Anzyr's synopsis taken from the original thread wrote:

I actually had a premise for my character. Basically, he dislikes the present management of the afterlife system so he is going around to Prime material planes so he can incorporate them in what he calls the "Grand Cycle". The Grand Cycle is endless loop of reincarnation governed by Arkalion himself. The main upside (in his opinion) is that by keeping souls endlessly within the cycle, it deprives the planes, outsiders (like devils and demons) and gods from gaining any power from those souls. He believes that the more souls that can be added to the "Grand Cycle", the more powerful the Grand Cycle itself will become as it incrementally gains spiritual strength each time a cycle is completed.

This leads to one of the tactics he was going to use being called "Prison of Past Regrets", but alas it won't see use.

Bolded for emphasis. Governed by Arkalion seems to indicate for his own benefit. Depriving other Gods of worshipers and souls weakens them and perhaps increases the power of the Grand Cycle -- and I can only assume that there is a way that power can be used or bring one into being a God in the end. All of that seems to be for his benefit.

Whether the character convinces someone to give up their version of Heaven to go through this cycle or forces it upon them -- and if they refuse the "sandwich", they were given no choice as I recall -- they are having their choices and free will suppressed.

Well who else is going to govern it? Do you think everyone who governs does so for their own benefit? I would argue the opposite is generally true and a person who governs does so for the benefit of the governed.

Technically, you get a choice. To be reincarnated or not. If you choose not to be reincarnated, then Arkalion uses Soul Bind to keep the soul safe. And again, taking away others choices is inherently Lawful not inherently Evil (Freedom v. Order). There are many choices that anyone can take, but that your government may use force to prevent or punish. The same is true here. You can choose to pass on, but Arkalion can and will prevent that.


The other point is that this isn't a PC, not even a 20th level one. This is a God. Regardless of any claims to be rules legal. The scale doesn't work.


thejeff wrote:
The other point is that this isn't a PC, not even a 20th level one. This is a God. Regardless of any claims to be rules legal. The scale doesn't work.

It is a level 20 character, that does level 20 PC things.


Anzyr wrote:
knightnday wrote:
Anzyr's synopsis taken from the original thread wrote:

I actually had a premise for my character. Basically, he dislikes the present management of the afterlife system so he is going around to Prime material planes so he can incorporate them in what he calls the "Grand Cycle". The Grand Cycle is endless loop of reincarnation governed by Arkalion himself. The main upside (in his opinion) is that by keeping souls endlessly within the cycle, it deprives the planes, outsiders (like devils and demons) and gods from gaining any power from those souls. He believes that the more souls that can be added to the "Grand Cycle", the more powerful the Grand Cycle itself will become as it incrementally gains spiritual strength each time a cycle is completed.

This leads to one of the tactics he was going to use being called "Prison of Past Regrets", but alas it won't see use.

Bolded for emphasis. Governed by Arkalion seems to indicate for his own benefit. Depriving other Gods of worshipers and souls weakens them and perhaps increases the power of the Grand Cycle -- and I can only assume that there is a way that power can be used or bring one into being a God in the end. All of that seems to be for his benefit.

Whether the character convinces someone to give up their version of Heaven to go through this cycle or forces it upon them -- and if they refuse the "sandwich", they were given no choice as I recall -- they are having their choices and free will suppressed.

Well who else is going to govern it? Do you think everyone who governs does so for their own benefit? I would argue the opposite is generally true and a person who governs does so for the benefit of the governed.

Technically, you get a choice. To be reincarnated or not. If you choose not to be reincarnated, then Arkalion uses Soul Bind to keep the soul safe. And again, taking away others choices is inherently Lawful not inherently Evil (Freedom v. Order). There are many choices that anyone can take, but...

You clearly don't see it this way, and morality is completely subjective, but as far as I'm concerned this behavior is utterly, disgustingly evil. The fact that governments operate this way doesn't suddenly make it not evil. And frankly anyone who doesn't see this as evil is pretty damn scary.


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The difference between a government and Ark is that people can choose to leave a country if they don't want to follow that country's laws. Generally, the people affect the goverment, to some extent, in the direction of what they want, usually with some compromise. Ark doesn't allow that, hence the evil.

And yes, I would say many governments are evil, the ones that don't let people leave or don't give the people any say in what happens.

Ark is essentially saying "Do it my way or suffer undesirable consequences." Which amounts to nothing more than blackmail. Nothing wrong with giving a blackmailer a bullet between the eyes.

It is also good to note, many serial killers claim similar things to Ark, that they are "saving" people.

Or the Islamic extremists who see it as good to cleanse the earth of those dirty infidels who deserve to die for not agreeing with Islam.

Ark's forcing of people to do it his way is evil (as said previously, the lawful part depends entirely on GM as there is no real world equivelent in moral or ethical considerations.)


TheAlicornSage wrote:

The difference between a government and Ark is that people can choose to leave a country if they don't want to follow that country's laws. Generally, the people affect the goverment, to some extent, in the direction of what they want, usually with some compromise. Ark doesn't allow that, hence the evil.

And yes, I would say many governments are evil, the ones that don't let people leave or don't give the people any say in what happens.

Ark is essentially saying "Do it my way or suffer undesirable consequences." Which amounts to nothing more than blackmail. Nothing wrong with giving a blackmailer a bullet between the eyes.

It is also good to note, many serial killers claim similar things to Ark, that they are "saving" people.

Or the Islamic extremists who see it as good to cleanse the earth of those dirty infidels who deserve to die for not agreeing with Islam.

Ark's forcing of people to do it his way is evil (as said previously, the lawful part depends entirely on GM as there is no real world equivelent in moral or ethical considerations.)

You don't get to choose your government and it is not always practical or even possible to leave it. There is a huge difference between Ark and a serial killer in that Arkalion does not kill anyone (unless they try to fight him), and he has actual knowledge that his actions save people from the afterlife. And again the thing that makes extremists (of any stripe) Evil, is not the fact that they impose order. An extremely Lawful Society would impose very controlling laws that rigidly impose Order and would not be inherently Evil, merely Lawful. Again to be clear, Arkalion is *not* Good. He's just not Evil.


Simon Legrande wrote:
And speaking of never being able to affect another person's life, I know for sure that I don't want TheAlicornSage determining how much money any person needs. Jealousy is borderline evil and has an awful tendency to dance around on the wrong side of the line.

Good thing I don't believe in me telling you how much money you need. My comment isn't based on jealously btw, it is based on the realization that money makes it easy to skim wealth from others and collect it in the hands of the few.

Don't worry, I don't think every rich person is evil, or that they even realize or care about the flaw I mentioned. They are just people, with good and bad among them.


Mechanically, even at 20th level, this "cycle" of reincarnate preceeding a soul bind cannot occur unless you do so via limited wish within a span of less than two minutes total. Which costs at a minimum a casting of blood money if the GM permits that spell in their campaign. Not a big deal per se for a 20th level Wizard, but it still adds up. The black sapphires for soul bind are foci, not material components, so you can't use blood money to create them. How is he affording potentially thousands upon thousands of black sapphire foci?

How is he making these Diplomacy checks stick for entire lifespans? There is no official "fanatic" results possible for Pathfinder that I know of. There is a finite number of people he can have these conversations within a given span of time. Diplomacy doesn't make attitudes stick, that requires building and maintaining social relationships.

Regardless of alignment, Arkalion is dogfood. He's mucking around in the affairs of the gods (depending upon the pantheon as to which ones and how many), who won't stand idly aside while he somehow siphons off all of the souls across multiple worlds.

I looked up the alias, there's nothing there on Arkalion's profile tab. No "biography" to read, via that method.

Keeping creatures' souls for "safe keeping" against their will, regardless of motive, is "oppression", an inherently Evil act.


Anzyr wrote:
thejeff wrote:
The other point is that this isn't a PC, not even a 20th level one. This is a God. Regardless of any claims to be rules legal. The scale doesn't work.
It is a level 20 character, that does level 20 PC things.

One on one sure.

On a planetary scale, not so much. Tens of thousands of Wishes to reincarnate daily? No. And you're doing this on multiple worlds. No.


Anzyr wrote:
TheAlicornSage wrote:

The difference between a government and Ark is that people can choose to leave a country if they don't want to follow that country's laws. Generally, the people affect the goverment, to some extent, in the direction of what they want, usually with some compromise. Ark doesn't allow that, hence the evil.

And yes, I would say many governments are evil, the ones that don't let people leave or don't give the people any say in what happens.

Ark is essentially saying "Do it my way or suffer undesirable consequences." Which amounts to nothing more than blackmail. Nothing wrong with giving a blackmailer a bullet between the eyes.

It is also good to note, many serial killers claim similar things to Ark, that they are "saving" people.

Or the Islamic extremists who see it as good to cleanse the earth of those dirty infidels who deserve to die for not agreeing with Islam.

Ark's forcing of people to do it his way is evil (as said previously, the lawful part depends entirely on GM as there is no real world equivelent in moral or ethical considerations.)

You don't get to choose your government and it is not always practical or even possible to leave it. There is a huge difference between Ark and a serial killer in that Arkalion does not kill anyone (unless they try to fight him), and he has actual knowledge that his actions save people from the afterlife. And again the thing that makes extremists (of any stripe) Evil, is not the fact that they impose order. An extremely Lawful Society would impose very controlling laws that rigidly impose Order and would not be inherently Evil, merely Lawful. Again to be clear, Arkalion is *not* Good. He's just not Evil.

He takes choice away from others. That is evil regardless of the reasons behind it.

The end does not justify the means..

Ark is blackmailing people. Blackmail is evil. His reasons don't matter.


Turin the Mad wrote:
Mechanically, even at 20th level, this "cycle" of reincarnate preceeding a soul bind cannot occur unless you do so via limited wish within a span of less than two minutes total. Which costs at a minimum a casting of blood money if the GM permits that spell in their campaign. Not a big deal per se for a 20th level Wizard, but it still adds up. The black sapphires for soul bind are foci, not material components, so you can't use blood money to create them. How is he affording potentially thousands upon thousands of black sapphire foci?

He has Shinigami Simulacrums for Soul Bind. Which has been mentioned.

Turin the Mad wrote:
How is he making these Diplomacy checks stick for entire lifespans? There is no official "fanatic" results possible for Pathfinder that I know of. There is a finite number of people he can have these conversations within a given span of time. Diplomacy doesn't make attitudes stick, that requires building and maintaining social relationships.

He makes them once to make them Helpful. He doesn't need to do it for their whole lifetime. It's an initial "Hey, I'm going to be reincarnating everyone to save you all from a terrible fate." He hits all the major metropolises and kingdoms. Everyone else just gets to deal with his proxies who are still by no means bad at diplomacy.

Turin the Mad wrote:
Regardless of alignment, Arkalion is dogfood. He's mucking around in the affairs of the gods (depending upon the pantheon as to which ones and how many), who won't stand idly aside while he somehow siphons off all of the souls across multiple worlds.

They do every other time. Insert Powerful/Provident comment.

Turin the Mad wrote:
Keeping creatures' souls for "safe keeping" against their will, regardless of motive, is "oppression", an inherently Evil act.

Jails are oppressive but not Evil.


What makes jails not evil?

In fact, how about you define what you think evil is?


TheAlicornSage wrote:

What makes jails not evil?

In fact, how about you define what you think evil is?

A non-exhaustive list:

Killing without a justification, restraining freedom without justification, torture, religious persecution*, discrimination based on biological conditions, or enslaving others.

Jail meets none of those provided you have a justification.

*Arkalion does not persecute people based on their beliefs. People can believe whatever they want. Might not get to act based on it, but belief is the key.


Justification is kinda vague don't you think?

Literally taken "Because I felt like it" is a justification that could be applied to killing in cold blood.

Casually though, it generally means a morally acceptable justification, which depends on what your morals are.

All in all, not a very well defined definition.

Also, taking people's choices away is a form of enslavement.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

So in my interpretation of Golarion cosmology, Evil, Good, Law, and Chaos are actual particles, all of which are pollutants on the Prime Material Plane. An 'evil' action is just one that attracts Evil particles. Spells have Alignment Descriptors because casting them causes those particular particles to be created or attracted to the area.

Souls function as kind of a psychic air filter to remove these particles from the environment. When you detect someone's alignment, what you're really doing is detecting the gunky residue they've picked up along the way.

When you go to the Boneyard, Pharasma isn't judging the actions of your past life -- she's just trying to figure out which toxic waste dump your soul belongs in. Because after they go to the aligned planes, eventually -- after eons and eons -- the alignment particles break down and become become neutral particles which can go back to the Prime Material Plane.

All of which is to say, this scheme isn't "good" or "evil" or "neutral" -- what it is is an environmental disaster. If the souls aren't allowed to remove the toxic alignment particles from the Prime Material Plane, it's all going to build up and cause all sorts of catastrophes. Mutations, like spontaneously generated Tieflings and Aasimars, an increase in Sorcerers, Bloodragers and other 'magic in the bloodline' sorts. Native populations of celestial, anarchic, axiomatic or fiendish creatures. Chaos tearing rifts to the First World. Chunks of pure evil burning down people's houses.

Madness, I tell you. Pure Madness.


Justification is vague because it covers quite a lot. But assume justifications accepted by Western criminal codes are all good here.

Taking away all or even a majority of a person's choices could be considered a form of enslavement, sure. However, Arkalion doesn't take enough choices to qualify. He only really takes control of an aspect of people's life that they don't actually have any control over in the first place.


Anzyr wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Mechanically, even at 20th level, this "cycle" of reincarnate preceeding a soul bind cannot occur unless you do so via limited wish within a span of less than two minutes total. Which costs at a minimum a casting of blood money if the GM permits that spell in their campaign. Not a big deal per se for a 20th level Wizard, but it still adds up. The black sapphires for soul bind are foci, not material components, so you can't use blood money to create them. How is he affording potentially thousands upon thousands of black sapphire foci?
He has Shinigami Simulacrums for Soul Bind. Which has been mentioned.

Are are they being coerced into service via greater planar binding? What are the exact terms of service they are bound to? How are you identifying all those deaths with such exactitude so that you can teleport in, blood money + limited wish within such a narrow time frame? How many of these creatures does he have bound to service? Does he call them up and shove them in a footlocker? The logistics of what you're proposing beyond that of a few hamlets is staggeringly expensive, just as a starting point.

Anzyr wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
How is he making these Diplomacy checks stick for entire lifespans? There is no official "fanatic" results possible for Pathfinder that I know of. There is a finite number of people he can have these conversations within a given span of time. Diplomacy doesn't make attitudes stick, that requires building and maintaining social relationships.
He makes them once to make them Helpful. He doesn't need to do it for their whole lifetime. It's an initial "Hey, I'm going to be reincarnating everyone to save you all from a terrible fate." He hits all the major metropolises and kingdoms. Everyone else just gets to deal with his proxies who are still by no means bad at diplomacy.

At best the attitude for what you're proposing from most NPCs is going to be "indifferent" - and a whole lot of them will be "hostile" to your proposal for what awaits them after they die. A *lot* of them, if not very nearly all of them, are likely to consider your proposal "giving dangerous aid that could result in punishment" with a DC of "40 or higher + Charisma modifier". The operative value here, given the extremely severe nature of what is being proposed if they don't agree with your ultimatum, is "40 or higher" (15 'indifferent' +10 'dangerous aid' +15 or higher 'give aid that could result in punishment'), with a "50 or higher plus Charisma modifier" for those that are already religiously devout.

This procedure of yours also overlooks two important caveats within the Diplomacy skill:

First, "Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature, subject to GM discretion." i.e., the GM is final arbiter of if this scheme has a snowball's chance in an oven of going anywhere.

Second: "Any attitude shift caused through Diplomacy generally lasts 1d4 hours but can last much longer or shorter depending upon the situation (GM's discretion)." A given creature's attitude cannot be influenced more often than once every 24 hours, so by default mechanics they think things over for 20-23 hours afterwards. They're people, they'll talk to other people they know, etc.

The strategy proposed hinges entirely on GM discretion.

Turin the Mad wrote:

Regardless of alignment, Arkalion is dogfood. He's mucking around in the affairs of the gods (depending upon the pantheon as to which ones and how many), who won't stand idly aside while he somehow siphons off all of the souls across multiple worlds. [/QUOTE

They do every other time. Insert Powerful/Provident comment.

Not on the scale you're proposing with the most valuable of things they don't. Again, caveated by "depends on the pantheon".

Anzyr wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Keeping creatures' souls for "safe keeping" against their will, regardless of motive, is "oppression", an inherently Evil act.
Jails are oppressive but not Evil.

Jails most certainly are oppressive - they house criminals as punishment for a crime.

Your jails are permanent imprisonment of a soul without recourse for ransom or parole for the crime of saying no to a Wizard's desire. How is this not Evil?


Anzyr wrote:

Justification is vague because it covers quite a lot. But assume justifications accepted by Western criminal codes are all good here.

Taking away all or even a majority of a person's choices could be considered a form of enslavement, sure. However, Arkalion doesn't take enough choices to qualify. He only really takes control of an aspect of people's life that they don't actually have any control over in the first place.

He takes away the one choice everyone normally enjoys regardless of anything else: where they go when they die, based (in game terms) of what they did during their lives.

In other words, he deprives them of the rewards of their earned afterlife regardless of their wishes to the contrary.


Turin the Mad wrote:
Stuff

1. Simulacrum. They naturally obey. And lots of divinations (Again Simulacrums). Pretty easy.

2. Even at +50 it's a non-issue with Moment of Prescience and his base bonus. And it's not dangerous aid. And even if the attitude does not remain, the offer was received positively. And of course ultimately, the diplomacy is a courtesy. That being said if Arklaion showed up in our plane, most people would happily take him up on his offer.

3. Most Pantheons are weaker then him (Zeus shoots lightning and can turn into animals... I'm duly unimpressed). The ones that aren't necessarily weaker then him (Golarions) don't get involved for whatever reason. Of course, since a Golarion deity can be done in by a demon lord, and Arkalion can easily do in demon lords, I wouldn't bet on them in a fight.

4. It's not permanent. He'll happily let you go once it's safe for your soul. Again, it's not about imprisoning you soul, it's about keeping it safe. And honestly, being hit with Soul Bind is less oppressive then the actual afterlife.


Turin the Mad wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

Justification is vague because it covers quite a lot. But assume justifications accepted by Western criminal codes are all good here.

Taking away all or even a majority of a person's choices could be considered a form of enslavement, sure. However, Arkalion doesn't take enough choices to qualify. He only really takes control of an aspect of people's life that they don't actually have any control over in the first place.

He takes away the one choice everyone normally enjoys regardless of anything else: where they go when they die, based (in game terms) of what they did during their lives.

In other words, he deprives them of the rewards of their earned afterlife regardless of their wishes to the contrary.

People don't control that choice in the first place. He's simply taking Pharasma's place at worst and at best is far more concerned with your souls well being.


Anzyr wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

Justification is vague because it covers quite a lot. But assume justifications accepted by Western criminal codes are all good here.

Taking away all or even a majority of a person's choices could be considered a form of enslavement, sure. However, Arkalion doesn't take enough choices to qualify. He only really takes control of an aspect of people's life that they don't actually have any control over in the first place.

He takes away the one choice everyone normally enjoys regardless of anything else: where they go when they die, based (in game terms) of what they did during their lives.

In other words, he deprives them of the rewards of their earned afterlife regardless of their wishes to the contrary.

People don't control that choice in the first place. He's simply taking Pharasma's place at worst and at best is far more concerned with your souls well being.

Yes they do control that choice.


Turin the Mad wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

Justification is vague because it covers quite a lot. But assume justifications accepted by Western criminal codes are all good here.

Taking away all or even a majority of a person's choices could be considered a form of enslavement, sure. However, Arkalion doesn't take enough choices to qualify. He only really takes control of an aspect of people's life that they don't actually have any control over in the first place.

He takes away the one choice everyone normally enjoys regardless of anything else: where they go when they die, based (in game terms) of what they did during their lives.

In other words, he deprives them of the rewards of their earned afterlife regardless of their wishes to the contrary.

People don't control that choice in the first place. He's simply taking Pharasma's place at worst and at best is far more concerned with your souls well being.
Yes they do control that choice.

Er.. No. Pharasma does. Can you cite evidence otherwise?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Even for a 20th level archmage, the problem is scale. With the rate that people die, your character is in the position of trying to empty out a river with a bucket.


LazarX wrote:
Even for a 20th level archmage, the problem is scale. With the rate that people die, your character is in the position of trying to empty out a river with a bucket.

You'd be surprised how many Simulacrums you can get. It probably isn't more then a world's population at the start, but after a century of fast time, it probably is. And then it'll be two worlds, then four, then eight, and so on.


Anzyr wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Stuff

1. Simulacrum. They naturally obey. And lots of divinations (Again Simulacrums). Pretty easy.

2. Even at +50 it's a non-issue with Moment of Prescience and his base bonus. And it's not dangerous aid. And even if the attitude does not remain, the offer was received positively. And of course ultimately, the diplomacy is a courtesy. That being said if Arklaion showed up in our plane, most people would happily take him up on his offer.

3. Most Pantheons are weaker then him (Zeus shoots lightning and can turn into animals... I'm duly unimpressed). The ones that aren't necessarily weaker than him (Golarions) don't get involved for whatever reason. Of course, since a Golarion deity can be done in by a demon lord, and Arkalion can easily do in demon lords, I wouldn't bet on them in a fight.

4. It's not permanent. He'll happily let you go once it's safe for your soul. Again, it's not about imprisoning you soul, it's about keeping it safe. And honestly, being hit with Soul Bind is less oppressive than the actual afterlife.

1.) simulacrum do obey, you're right, I missed that they are simulacrums. However, you've missed the most important part, they have "half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)." bold emphasis mine Special abilities scale by HD in acquisition, so an 11 HD version of this creature (subject to GM's discretion) won't have any of its 3/day spell-like abilities as they are at least 7th level/13 HD abilities.

Most importantly, why, if your Wizard is so concerned with the well-being of the souls he shoves into soul gems via soul bind, is he using custodians that destroy the very souls they are charged if they so desire, presuming that the GM permitted them to have that ability in the first place? Doing so is one of these creature's primary offensive abilities, and they aren't packing any equipment you didn't give them.

2.) You're glossing over the entire problem with the premise: "GM's discretion". Worse, it has already stated that he's doing this to people whether they agree to let him or not. Tyrant, thy name is Evil.

3.) Gods don't have stat blocks. Demon Lords do, demigods do, gods do not, not in Pathfinder, excepting demigods. Zeus is no demigod, and I rather doubt your Wizard is immune to divine, untyped damage that has the appearance of electricity measured in terms of "lightning strikes, you die". Pharasma's the oldest of them all or very nearly so, not some demigod shmuck. If you get Pharasma's undivided attention, nothing you can do will stop her.

4.) Given the scope of what you're attempting, that wait will be the greater part of eternity. The sapphire itself will disintegrate from the passage of time long before your goal has been obtained.

5.) You've still yet to cover how you're pulling off the tight timing required to arrive within less than 104 seconds of a prospect's death.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Anzyr wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Even for a 20th level archmage, the problem is scale. With the rate that people die, your character is in the position of trying to empty out a river with a bucket.
You'd be surprised how many Simulacrums you can get. It probably isn't more then a world's population at the start, but after a century of fast time, it probably is. And then it'll be two worlds, then four, then eight, and so on.

We're done... as soon as someone puts simulacrum into their mega world plan, the discussion's over for me.

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