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One of the most-glaring issues with the class currently is the dependence on Talents, both in the Social and Vigilante Persona.
The Social Persona at least gains some extra abilities as it levels (though far too few too far apart), but the Specializations are being treated almost entirely like Oracle Mysteries, where you get 1 minor ability and nothing but options later.
This worked fine with the Oracle, because the Oracle ALSO got Cruses AND 9th-level spell progressions.
But the Caster Specializations are being starved of half their talents JUST to be able to do what every other 6th-level caster does. Having a built-in tax for half talents is stymieing any practical usefulness these specializations might have otherwise had.
And, as a result, the Martials are also getting the short end of the stick, relying almost entirely on 10 Talents and no extra abilities (the Stalker gaining Hidden Strike is really the sole useful Specialization ability).
The total result is that while the Vigilante is still better off than it had been in Round 1, it's still not quite far enough to make the class into a useful, cool class.
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The easy way of solving this issue of lacking power compared to other classes is actually fairly simple: more actual abilities, and natural spell progression where applicable.
Compare the Vigilante to solid classes like the Paladin, Ranger, Unchained Rogue, Bard, Inquisitor, etc., and it becomes pretty obvious that those classes all gain a wide variety of abilities every level; conversely, 9th-level casters generally get few abilities, but gain a large number of spells to supplement a lack of abilities (in the case of the Arcanist, it gains BOTH lots of abilities AND full spellcasting, which makes it extremely good).
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So, simply put, the class should look like this:
BASE VIGILANTE (Social Persona)
lv1 Dual Identity, Seemless Guise, Social Talent, Specialization
lv2 Many Guises
lv3 Social Talent
lv4 Vengeance Strike 1/day (Full-Round Action)
lv5 Social Talent, Quick Change (Standard Action)
lv6 Everyman
lv7 Social Talent
lv8 Vengeance Strike 2/day (Move Action)
lv9 Social Talent
lv10 Any Guise, Quick Change (Standard Action)
lv11 Social Talent
lv12 Vengeance Strike 3/day (Swift Action)
lv13 Social Talent
lv14 "Guise" Ability
lv15 Social Talent, Quick Change (Move Action)
lv16 Vengeance Strike 4/day (Free Action)
lv17 Social Talent
lv18 "Guise" Ability
lv19 Social Talent
lv20 Capstone Ability, Quick Change (Swift Action), Vengeance Strike 5/day (Immediate Action)
MARTIAL SPECIALIZATIONS (Avenger & Stalker)
lv1 Assault Training, [Monk Unarmed damage progression + Improved Unarmed Strike] OR [Toughness + DR/- (scaling)] (Avenger); Hidden Strike (scales), Shadow Jaunt
lv2 Vigilante Talent
lv3 Vigilante Ability
lv4 Vigilante Talent
lv5 Vigilante Ability
lv6 Vigilante Talent
lv7 Vigilante Ability
lv8 Vigilante Talent
lv9 Vigilante Ability
lv10 Vigilante Talent
lv11 Vigilante Ability
lv12 Vigilante Talent
lv13 Vigilante Ability
lv14 Vigilante Talent
lv15 Vigilante Ability
lv16 Vigilante Talent
lv17 Vigilante Ability
lv18 Vigilante Talent
lv19 Vigilante Ability
lv20 Ultimate Vigialnte Talent (like Grand Discoveries)
CASTER SPECIALIZATIONS (Warlock & Zealot)
lv1 Spells (both, natural 6th-level progression), Mystic Bolt (Warlock, scales); Divine Powers (Zealot)
lv2 Vigilante Talent
lv3
lv4 Vigilante Talent
lv5
lv6 Vigilante Talent
lv7
lv8 Vigilante Talent
lv9
lv10 Vigilante Talent
lv11
lv12 Vigilante Talent
lv13
lv14 Vigilante Talent
lv15
lv16 Vigilante Talent
lv17
lv18 Vigilante Talent
lv19
lv20 Ultimate Vigialnte Talent (like Grand Discoveries)
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I also assumed that the "Appearance" abilities are relegated to Talents, and the "Guise" talents are made into abilities, and that Vengeance Strike is a much greater Scaling ability.
Anyway, comparing these setups with existing classes like the Inquisitor & Bard (for the caster specializations), the Ranger (for the Avenger), and the Unchained Rogue (for the Stalker), you see that all these classes have lots of different abilities.
The Ranger and Rogue have lots of Class abilities at basically every level; the Bard and Inquisitor have a few less, but have natural 6th-level spellcasting progression to supplement slightly fewer abilities compared to other solid classes.
If the Social Persona gains progressive abilities to both disguise and change Personas, as well as progressive abilities to use Vengeance Strike as a basic ability, the Social Persona ends up being a solid base design (about as strong as the Pre-Unchined Rogue, so roughly 75% of a full class)
If the Casters gain natural progressive spellcasting, they only require 1 scaling ability at lv1, and can survive purely on the 10 Specialization Talents they acquire. Adding this on top of the Social Persona brings the class solidly up to the same levels of power as a Bard or Inquisitor.
Giving the Martials 2 Abilities at lv1 PLUS further standard abilities at every other level brings the Stalker and Avenger up to the same level of power as the Ranger or Unchained Rogue (Hidden Strike).
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Like I said, this is a quick and simple fix, really, but would allow for much more time to be devoted to analyzing the Talents themselves in depth, rather than spend all this time trying to get the Vigilante chassis as a whole working.
If something like this was instituted, it would open the door for adding in many more talents and expanding upon the roles of these four specializations, possibly even further advancing them away from being a "Not-Stakler, Not-Rogue, Not-Magus, and Not-Inquisitor".
Oh, also, if Divine Powers are how the Zealot is going to be going (which it totally should), then maybe renaming it to "Scion" would be far better.
If a class is remotely useful at 1st, someone MIGHT want to dip into it!!! :P
The current vigilante casters get 5 talents plus level 6 casting. The current vigilante melee get 10 talents.
The oracle gets lvl 9 casting plus 6 revelations. Revelations are on par or better than vigilante talents.
The shaman gets lvl 9 casting, 10 hexes, and 4 spirit abilities. Hexes are generally better than feats. Spirit abilities vary wildly in power.
The arcanist gets lvl 9 casting and 10 exploits. Exploits are generally better than feats.
The barbarian gets full BAB, rage, uncanny dodge, greater uncanny dodge, fast movement, DR and 10 rage powers. Rage powers are generally better than feats.
The magus gets lvl 6 casting, spell combat, spell strike, arcane pool, arcana, medium and heavy armor casting, bonus feats, fighter training and spell recall.
Your suggestion is where in my opinion the vigilante should be in abilities to compare to classes that already exist in this game.
They've already said they're not budging on this, and that prior extra X feats were mistakes and they're not going to repeat them. A statement I believe that is flatly ridiculous, but that's what they're going with.
They've already said they're not budging on this, and that prior extra X feats were mistakes and they're not going to repeat them. A statement I believe that is flatly ridiculous, but that's what they're going with.The current vigilante casters get 5 talents plus level 6 casting. The current vigilante melee get 10 talents.
The oracle gets lvl 9 casting plus 6 revelations. Revelations are on par or better than vigilante talents.
The shaman gets lvl 9 casting, 10 hexes, and 4 spirit abilities. Hexes are generally better than feats. Spirit abilities vary wildly in power.
The arcanist gets lvl 9 casting and 10 exploits. Exploits are generally better than feats.
The barbarian gets full BAB, rage, uncanny dodge, greater uncanny dodge, fast movement, DR and 10 rage powers. Rage powers are generally better than feats.
The magus gets lvl 6 casting, spell combat, spell strike, arcane pool, arcana, medium and heavy armor casting, bonus feats, fighter training and spell recall.
Your suggestion is where in my opinion the vigilante should be in abilities to compare to classes that already exist in this game.
Who wants to bet that the occult nook (or it's supplementary book) has some of those 'mistake' feats in it. I'm not sure what brought on this realization after all this it as they made extra feats for APG classes. :P
Unless they whip out something super-awesome, I fear this class is going to turn into a dip class only.
No argument there. But where does the fix lie?
I feel like the Vigilante should have never been four psuedo classes in the first place but to let it be the Stalker and then pick from all the talents from all the specializations and make your own Thuerge, your own Trickster, etc.
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Something like the OP would fix the class. I always did like a single class that could pick and choose from all 4 specializations.
What is kind of disappointing is that the developers made so little changes between v1 and v2, seeming to indicate they think the power level is fine.
Well, I agree with Tuyena that even my "fix" doesn't actually FIX-fix the class. The insistence of sticking with these Not-Slayer, Not-Rogue, Not-Magus, and Not-Inquisitor builds is absolutely killing this class, both in practice and in theme.
From the start, the class should have been built almost entirely with a Mastery-Spy-Made-Base-Class architecture. The Master Spy fulfills the roll of an "Intrigue" class better than basically anything else.
The Specializations ARE a neat idea, and keeping with the "Alternate Persona" in wouldn't be too hard. However, this whole thing is a gigantic missed opportunity to Base-ify popular Prestige Classes: the Warlock could have been the Arcane Trickster, the Zealot could have been the Holy Vindicator, the Stalker could have been the Shadow Dancer, and the Avenger could have been the Stalwart Defender.
Better yet, there could have also been a Mystic Theurge Specialization, a spontaneous Alchemist, a prepared Psychic.
Instead, the results have been a largely-uninspired & paltry stab at copying 4 long-established classes, but muting them at the same time.
I understand the thematic ideas behind the Specializations: they wanted a Tank, a Sneak, an Arcane Caster and a Divine Caster, to fill in the 4 traditional RPG Class Archetypes. But I fail to see how pasting on muted versions of the Fighter/Slayer, the Rogue, the Magus, and the Inquisitor fulfills those roles better than a Stalwart Defender, Shadowdancer, Arcane Trickster, Holy Vindicator, and Mystic Theurge would have.
The biggest, most constant, most uttered question about this class was, is, and probably always will be "why not just play X?"
If the Specializations WERE modeled after the Defender, Shadowdancer, Trickster, Vindicator, and Theurge, there wouldn't really BE these questions - you would play this class for the same reason why you'd play a Bloodrager instead of a Barbarian/Sorcerer/Dragon-Disciple - because you get to play your favorite Prestige Classes as a Levels-1-to-20 Base Class!
That alone would have made this class more palpable and desirable, but the specializations as-is are just rehashes of very popular Base Classes. The Vigilante is the Slayer/Rogue/Magus/Inquisitor II: Electric Boogaloo, but with little of the charm of the originals.
On top of that, the Social Persona, which really SHOULD have been the main focus of this entire class to begin with, isn't a Mastery Spy, but instead a generic... thing. It's CLOSER to the Master Spy than the NPC-Class-Plus that the Round 1 Social Persona was, but it's still struggling to breathe and find it's perfect niche to fill.
Honestly, I cannot see this class being "done" in 6 days. This is by far the most uninspired class design I've seen from Paizo, and that's really saying something - up until now, I really HAVE liked all the classes that have come to pass (I still am not a gigantic fan of the Medium, since I generally don't like classes that are "one class to play them all" designs, but I understand other peoples' desires to use them - and at least the number of Spirits has been cut down by a large margin), but this is probably the first class that I'm honest-to-god worried is going to be a pretty substantial disaster, and could honestly be a repeat of the Pre-Unchained Rogue.
The Rogue and Monk were somewhat excusable - they were so early in Pathfinder's life that things hadn't been completely figured out yet. The Summoner was accidentally overpowered, but in some ways being OVERpowered is much better than being UNDERpowered.
There really isn't ANY reason that any other classes should need an Unchained version - Unchained was an "oops, we f$*%ed up" thing, and the power of those three classes needed SUCH a drastic redesign that they needed rewrites (Barbarian was a kinda-simplified version, but is only good with itself, not with any other options).
As it stands, it looks like if this class sees print, it's GOING to need an Unchained version to get it working.
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Anyway, getting somewhat back on track, I presented this as a "fix" because it seems WAY too far along in the design process to ACTUALLY fix this class properly - the things that need to be changed to make it a unique, interesting, and viable class are too numerous and too extensive to not likely push the planned release of Ultimate Intrigue back.
The best thing that can be done right now is basically "damage control", which means I'm looking at it as "well, we can't make it extremely interesting, and we definitely can't make it unique, so the best we can hope to do is make it functional."
And the design I showed above WILL likely make it at least mostly functional.
Whether or not the devs will actually make this interesting or unique really remains to be seen, but this far along in the process, I'm expecting it to continue being the boring Captain Ersatz class through to publication.
I'm hoping it'll be made functional; unfortunately, I'm already resigned to the idea that the devs are being far too sheepish about the class and will end up producing Chained Rogue 2.0 as a result.
It seems like the major focus of the class is dual identity and I don't really see how that fits into a pathfinder campaign.
Master assassins don't really have dual identities, they just make sure no one lives to talk about their one identity. Master spies use disguises to keep people from recognizing them, they don't have another identity.
That's not really true.
Ezio Auditore would count as having a Dual Identity, as would most Assassins in the Assasin's Creed franchise
Jaqen H'ghar knows that a man has no face, and many faces.
The Chameleon could be duplicated with the Guise abilities.
Richard Hannay more than likely had to take out a few hits on people.
James Bond DEFINITELY assassinated tons of people, and is the poster-child for what this class could be.
Hunter Rose, the first Grendel, is a prime example of an Assassin with a Dual Identity.
Patrick Bateman, though not an Action character, has a Dual Identity and is a serial killer.
Fantomas is a turn-of-the-century example of a Vigilante assassin-ish character.
The ones in fiction that had dual identities like Zorro, used the dual identity to work against the local authorities without being caught in the act as Don Diego Vega. Most adventurers don't have enough of a back story to make a second identity necessary.
If they're superheroes, sure. And Zorro, the Lone Ranger, the Phantom, etc., all do basically count as proto-superheros.
But you're forgetting other characters who hid their identities for reasons like crime, espionage, infiltration, etc.
Arsene Lupin
Arsene Lupin III & Fujiko Mine
Doc Savage
Michael Westen
Faceman Peck would often use false names and backgrounds to con
Count Olaf from A Series of Unfortunate Events
Edmond Dantes, le Comte de Monte Cristo is probably THE prime example of why Dual Identity can work
Artemus Gordan
Isadore Einstein (look him up)
Most of these examples are general Masters of Disguise, but the Dual Identity ability and the succeeding Guise abilities play into this perfectly.
I would change the class to scrap dual identity. Make a permanent chassis that has some choices - like master spy, ruler, guildmaster etc. Then have training modules that can be swapped in and out that have packages of abilities and talent choices.
That... honestly sounds like it's way more work than its worth.
More and more choices are not always good; in fact, they're often quite bad.
Analysis Paralysis can result easily from having far too many options available to you, and having a class made of LITERALLY 20 Talents as it stands right now is already bordering on that, especially BECAUSE this class has become a "build your own thing" mod.
If actual Abilities are added to the class, it leads players along in one direction or another. By using hard-coded abilities, you allow players to focus in on one aspect of the class they really like, and choose Talents which enhance, supplement, and support the aspect they prefer the most.
The best classes already follow this method; the Alchemist lets you focus on Bombs, on Mutagens, on Extracts, etc., for example.
So, yeah, no, I'm fine with keeping the Dual Identity ability around. It can work quite well; the devs (and I've said this to death) just need to make it less about BEING BATMAN! and more about being a spy/infiltrator/assassin/etc. who actively uses its Social Persona to its advantage through info gathering, espionage, sabotage, etc.
It's not that doom and gloom... this class at least makes a great dip/NPC class for low level campaigns.... I really want to see what an NPC lvl 1 bard, lvl 2 avenger, + 5 levels of barbarian would turn out like... it might be weaker than a standard level 8,but it would sure be different.
Anyway, getting somewhat back on track, I presented this as a "fix" because it seems WAY too far along in the design process to ACTUALLY fix this class properly - the things that need to be changed to make it a unique, interesting, and viable class are too numerous and too extensive to not likely push the planned release of Ultimate Intrigue back....
Whether or not the devs will actually make this interesting or unique really remains to be seen, but this far along in the process, I'm expecting it to continue being the boring Captain Ersatz class through to publication.
I'm hoping it'll be made functional; unfortunately, I'm already resigned to the idea that the devs are being far too sheepish about the class and will end up producing Chained Rogue 2.0 as a result.
You mean kinda like a Bard that dips Pre-Unchained Rogue for the trapfinding and a little more skills?
Yeah...that's still pretty gloomy.