2bz2p |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I find the "dual" alignment of the Vigilante distasteful and would never allow it in my campaigns. The only sentient beings with conflicting core codes existing at the same time are insane ones - great for an NPC, horrid for a player character. The reason a vigilante acts as they do should be BECAUSE of their core beliefs, not despite them. I can see many abuses of this split alignment concept by players who pick up just a single level of Vigilante.
I would suggest this as an improvement: At first level a Vigilante gains a supernatural ability, Mask Alignment, which essentially acts as a Undetectable Alignment spell though no magical aura radiates from the Mask Alignment if subject to any form of magic detection. At forth level, they gain Mirror Alignment, which allows the vigilante at the beginning of their turn to choose to read as the same alignment as the detector when subject to magical or supernatural means to discern alignment.
This solves the 'split personality' issues while allowing the vigilante to blend into any society
phantom1592 |
Mechanics like this already exist though. You already mention MA,
[quote="Master Spy"}
Mask Alignment: A master spy of 2nd level or higher can alter her alignment aura to deceive spells that discern alignment (such as detect evil). She may choose to detect as any specific alignment, or to detect as no alignment at all. This ability does not protect against spells or effects that cause harm based on alignment. Masking her alignment aura is a standard action, and lasts until she changes it again or ends the effect.
Shift Alignment: Starting at 6th level, a master spy’s control over her aura improves. When she assumes a false alignment, she can choose to have all spells and magic items affect her as though she were that alignment; this includes helpful and harmful effects. For example, a neutral good master spy can shift her aura to lawful evil so she can pass through a doorway that shocks creatures that aren’t lawful evil; if hit by holy smite with this shifted aura, she takes damage as if she were evil. A master spy can change her alignment aura from a masked alignment (as per her 2nd-level class feature, where effects still function based on her actual alignment) to a shifted alignment (as per this ability, where effects function based on her assumed alignment) as a standard action. Shifting her alignment aura is a standard action, and lasts until she changes it again or ends the effect.
This isn't even counting characters like Alchemists and their Master Cymist... they also get two alignments that don't even need the 1 step limit...
Personally, I don't have an issue with the idea that Matt Murdock is staunch believer in 'the system'. He fights his battles in courts, tries to get everyone (even villains) an honest defense that works within the system...
But if that DOESN'T work, he'll slip on a mask and start taking the law into his own hands. Break and enter, steal evidence, intimidate information from people...
Then the next day take that information to the legal authorities and do everything he can 'by the book'... It really just shows that a lot of heroes are actually in fact hypocrites... but it's a valid character possibility.
I like alignment as a tool, but not as bludgeon against players. I can see a lot of DM's taking any character who bends the laws just a little (as every superhero does...) and break their backs with alignment penalites. THat doesn't sound like fun to me. So I like the idea of being a nice guy who does things the 'right way'... until I put on the mask. The mask isn't lawful...
M1k31 |
Personally, I don't have an issue with the idea that Matt Murdock is staunch believer in 'the system'. He fights his battles in courts, tries to get everyone (even villains) an honest defense that works within the system...
But if that DOESN'T work, he'll slip on a mask and start taking the law into his own hands. Break and enter, steal evidence, intimidate information from people...
Then the next day take that information to the legal authorities...
Agreed, I think you are looking at this wrong 2b... this isn't 2 different people, it's one person pretending to be another because either he feels his alignments ideals don't get it done, or because his true alignment makes him a pariah for some reason.... like a person can act differently because of being part of a mob as opposed to being alone.
Purple Dragon Knight |
I also agree with the "masking one's true alignment" approach.
An easy way to apply the masking effect in-game would be make the vigilante hard to detect with divination spells, the same way nondetection works, which is coincidentally scaleable with level.
Purple Dragon Knight |
We even have some ready to go wording that can be imported to the vigilante class, thanks to the Master Spy PrC (see below). Because the Vigilante would get this at lower level, make it detectable via caster level check vs. DC 11 + Vigilante level (like nondection), but otherwise pretty much import the the Master Spy's wording completely... Please note that at all times, the Master Spy's sense of the self is not ridiculously conflicted like a Vigilante's...
Mask Alignment (Su)
A master spy of 2nd level or higher can alter her alignment aura to deceive spells that discern alignment (such as detect evil). She may choose to detect as any specific alignment, or to detect as no alignment at all. This ability does not protect against spells or effects that cause harm based on alignment. Masking her alignment aura is a standard action, and lasts until she changes it again or ends the effect.
Shift Alignment (Su)
Starting at 6th level, a master spy’s control over her aura improves. When she assumes a false alignment, she can choose to have all spells and magic items affect her as though she were that alignment; this includes helpful and harmful effects. For example, a neutral good master spy can shift her aura to lawful evil so she can pass through a doorway that shocks creatures that aren’t lawful evil; if hit by holy smite with this shifted aura, she takes damage as if she were evil. A master spy can change her alignment aura from a masked alignment (as per her 2nd-level class feature, where effects still function based on her actual alignment) to a shifted alignment (as per this ability, where effects function based on her assumed alignment) as a standard action. Shifting her alignment aura is a standard action, and lasts until she changes it again or ends the effect.
Thrawn007 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
2bz2p |
If alignment becomes a measure of how you feel at the moment, and not something more solid and core to a character, then why even have it at all? Today I feel like being with the mob, tomorrow the court. Alignment used to be a base mechanic for building a character in a society where your core beliefs have weight, all lawfuls should have common beliefs (blood hierarchy is valid for example) in a setting. This can change from campaign to campaign - is slavery and issue of law or morals? - but it should be bedrock.
This new malleable idea of alignment makes it something unusable in the game. I've always preferred the AD&D strong alignment roles, and if Pathfinder wants to detach from that - that's fine. But then just abandon it altogether and come up with another system.
Great characters in film, theater and TV have conflicting personalities that don;t fit a core alignment -- Game of Thrones is amazing at making you feel really sorry for a character you really wanted to see suffer a few episodes before. But the idea of auras as something that your core beliefs generate needs to be dismissed if you can change it every minute.
M1k31 |
If alignment becomes a measure of how you feel at the moment, and not something more solid and core to a character, then why even have it at all? Today I feel like being with the mob, tomorrow the court. Alignment used to be a base mechanic for building a character in a society where your core beliefs have weight, all lawfuls should have common beliefs (blood hierarchy is valid for example) in a setting. This can change from campaign to campaign - is slavery and issue of law or morals? - but it should be bedrock.
This new malleable idea of alignment makes it something unusable in the game. I've always preferred the AD&D strong alignment roles, and if Pathfinder wants to detach from that - that's fine. But then just abandon it altogether and come up with another system.
Great characters in film, theater and TV have conflicting personalities that don;t fit a core alignment -- Game of Thrones is amazing at making you feel really sorry for a character you really wanted to see suffer a few episodes before. But the idea of auras as something that your core beliefs generate needs to be dismissed if you can change it every minute.
It's not really changing... it's intent is to address the realities of the class.... Bruce Wayne and batman perform separate actions, but Batman breaks laws Bruce would not.