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Ok, I got some wierd questions / comments a few weeks ago that have gotten me thinking.
Do you personally have a problem with people playing a new character that they have no intention of keeping as is.
Example 1) I have a folder with 5 fairly simple, CRB, level 1, PFS legal characters. That is primarily so if there are noobs at the table, who want something a little better than the pregens, but we don't have time to build them a unique character. They are perfectly adequate for a long term character, but there is nothing particularly special about them.
If I find we are playing something like Confirmation or Wisp and I don't have a new PC ready, I just grab one of those 5 and go with it. I know I won't keep it and will use the re-build rules to make something bizarre before it gets to 2nd level.
I got some disapproving glares and comments. "The rebuild rules are so you can try out a particular class and find out if you like it. Not just so you can play something you don't intend to keep. That's practically cheating.
Seemed silly to me, but I shrugged and played the barbarian pregen that was slightly worse than my barbarian (IMO). Still not a character that I intended to keep, but that didn't bother them.
Example 2) I know some folks will take things like combat reflexes, toughness, or improved initiative on their squishy PC's even though they know they will switch it out at 2nd level,
Example 3) I know there are a few people that almost always use the same character build for their first 3 xp. One that I know of is a human cleric with toughness and (that other feat that gives hit points). It is built for melee with a long spear and a few knowledge skill ranks.
Their reasoning is something along the lines of:
Not everyone will have the click stick as a brand new character so a little bit of healing is even more useful than usual later n the game.
With the feats it has better than barb hitpoints.
With that and the heals, is almost unkillable.
Only 1 or 2 lower on to hit and damage, but the intro opponents are usually so squishy it doesn't matter.
Character is always useful and welcomed. Certainly better than the pregens at level 1.
Until rebuilt will only buy some 'everyone wants it' stuff like a masterwork backpack, antitoxin, and the click stick. The rest is saved.
But again, even if they were going to eventually run a cleric it wouldn't be built like that with those feats and abilities. So they obviously will be rebuilding it to something else before level 2.
(The other guy does something similar but with a ranger.)
Does any of those examples bother you? Would you be irritated to have them at your table?
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Personally, I don't care.
That said, I'm probably biased as I often do it myself to try make sure the tables I play at are balanced (ie "need a healer? - great, I'll play a level 1 life oracle and apply the credit to a 1st level arcanist I'll probably not play until they're at least 2nd or 3rd level").
-TimD
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The original intention of the rule was definitely so newbies could try out a bunch of things, or that anyone can try out classes at level 1 with little to no consequence. It is definitely still used for that, although people have used it for other purposes now as well.
I'll just say that it is not particularly earth-shattering, and I am OK with it. Honestly, I think the biggest abuse that can come out of it is that someone optimizes for day jobs and then retrains out of it at level 2, but even so, it's not that much of a difference of gold in the long run (without any boons, that is a maximum of 900 gp more if you slow track at 1 which at level 7 makes very little difference...and that is slow tracking at level 1, a level I can barely even stand to play anymore :p).
I mean, the rebuild rules are only for level 1. Once you play at 2, it no longer applies, so the majority of the course of a Pathfinder's career it isn't going to matter.
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I haven't done that exactly. I've planned out multiclassed character builds and switched back and forth at first level because I couldn't decide which to start as at lvl one (for example, I built a cavalier/hunter type character and start 0.0 as a hunter, after I realized I did no magic-y stuff and only fought I swapped the hunter level for the cavalier level for 0.1 and then at lvl 2 I was still a 1/1 hunter/cavalier).
I did nearly the same thing with a hunter/brawler(wild child). I played the entire first level as hunter and then when I leveled up to 2 I free-retrained my first level into the brawler for the extra hp and still ended up at lvl 2 as a 1/1 hunter/brawler. This is more in line with what you're talking about.
Even with those examples, I don't have any problems of a lvl 1 human barbarian with 20 con, toughness, tribal scars, and tireless (odd how the hp increasing feats and trait all start with 't')--for a total of 27 hp at lvl 1 and then retraining into something else before playing lvl 2.
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I'm guilty of bringing a "Muscles for Teeth" build to replayables myself. If I have a level 1 character I'd actually like to try out, then I'll bring that. But whenever we have extra time after or between slots we'll break out a replayable and try to bank another 1xp character, and I don't always have something ready that I've put thought into.
But I'm also the self-aware type to "tone it down" if there's an actual newbie at the table, or someone who hasn't played the scenario previously. But those aren't usually the types to play through a speedrun anyways.
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My policy is that I try to play every character I make at least once per level, so while I might use such a build once at first level, I'll make sure that I play something real at some point before I hit level two, so that I can see how the character actually plays at the table.
Honestly, the closest I've done to that is have my Rogue take Weapon Finesse as a first level feat, and then swapped it out for another in my rebuild so that I could pick it up the "Finesse Rogue" Rogue Talent instead. And that's no longer an issue with the Unchained Rogue.
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Do you personally have a problem with people playing a new character that they have no intention of keeping as is.
It does not bother me in the slightest.
I have used the 1st-level rebuild rules a lot, but never in the way you describe. I have thought about it before, but I'd prefer to use those 3 scenarios experimenting with ideas to try them out before I lock them in.
But, again, it doesn't bother me in the least that you are using those rules for what you describe. I especially like the idea of the tough cleric who is there to provide some support for low-level characters that might not otherwise have access to healing magic.
Regarding building pregens for beginner players, I think it's better to just give them the pregens that Paizo has released. While not as powerful as characters built by veteran players, they will get the job done. More importantly, when the new player goes home and builds their own character, it will be more exciting for them to come up with something more powerful than that pregen they played at their first game or two instead of something that doesn't measure up to a character crafted by an expert (possibly drawn from many rules sources the new player doesn't have access to). I think you are setting them up for disappointment.
That said, I have NO problem whatsoever of players and GMs building 1st-level pregens for the iconics of the Advanced Player's Guide until Paizo releases their versions. I have thought about doing so myself even. Were I to do so, I would use the races of the iconics, and I would draw material only from the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Player's Guide. I would also try to build them to a middling power level (neither overly powerful, nor underpowered).
My 2 cp. :)
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Honestly, the closest I've done to that is have my Rogue take Weapon Finesse as a first level feat, and then swapped it out for another in my rebuild so that I could pick it up the "Finesse Rogue" Rogue Talent instead. And that's no longer an issue with the Unchained Rogue.
That is actually a pretty common tactic to use with the Core Rogue. I think that speaks more to the issues with the Core Rogue than it does to rebuilding practices. :p
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Regarding building pregens for beginner players, I think it's better to just give them the pregens that Paizo has released. While not as powerful as characters built by veteran players, they will get the job done. More importantly, when the new player goes home and builds their own character, it will be more exciting for them to come up with something more powerful than that pregen they played at their first game or two instead of something that doesn't measure up to a character crafted by an expert (possibly drawn from many rules sources the new player doesn't have access to). I think you are setting them up for disappointment. ...
I certainly don't push them on anyone. We have had some difficulty a couple of times explaining the animal companion, TWF, oversized weapon, firearm rules to complete newbies before.
I have also had at least 3 people that seemed completely overwhelmed by the thought of designing a character themselves. And a lot of the advice they get requires 5-6 books.So we have a quick conversation. She says she wants to be an archer. Doesn't want to try and learn magic yet. yadda yadda
Sounds like a fairly typical archer ranger. So I hand her one that I generated in Herolab. I tell her that it only uses the Core Rule Book and is fairly simple. It has a bunch or suggestions on how to proceed as you gain levels. They are only suggestions and really not the most powerful ones. But they work and are moderately easy to learn. If you get more books or decide you are ready to tackle something more complex, let me know. I'm always up for engineering a new character. You can also go to the paizo forums for tons of advice on any type of character possible.
Gel-Thien
Elf Ranger 1
NG Medium Humanoid (elf)
hp 12 (1d10+2)
Special Attacks favored enemy (undead +2)
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
Feats Point Blank Shot
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Skill ranks: Handle Animal 1, Knowledge (nature) 1, Perception 1, Profession (trapper) 1, Stealth 1, Survival 1, Use Magic Device 1
Languages Common, Elven
Gear: Potion of cure light wounds, Studded leather armor, Arrows (20), Dagger, Light flail, Shortbow,
Backpack (9 @ 15 lbs), Bedroll, Belt pouch (5 @ 1.68 lbs), Chalk, Fishhook, Flint and steel, Signal whistle,
Torch (3), Trail rations (3), Waterskin, Whetstone, 26 GP, 4 SP, 4 CP
Favored Enemy (Undead +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
NOTE: Listen to intro information if graveyards or haunted churches are mentioned, buy a vial of holy water (25 gp each) before heading out. Otherwise buy an alchemist fire (20 gp each) or 2 acid (10 gp each)
Equipment Suggestions:
First 2 prestige points use for a wand of cure light wounds
Second 2 prestige points use for mw comp long bow with +2 str rating
After that, I would save prestige points in case you need a raise dead cast.
Use gold to buy masterwork chain shirt and masterwork elven curved blade.
Replace any consumables you use (maybe buy more of them).
Eventually you are wanting to own:
Magic mithral chain shirt
Magic composite long bow
Cloak of resistance
Belt to improve physical stats
Feat Suggestions:
2 precise shot - can shoot into melee effectively
3 rapid shot - additional attack
5 deadly aim - trade accuracy for damage
6 improved precise shot - ignore cover
7 many shot - even more arrow in the air
9 shot on the run - shoot while moving
Skill Suggestions:
Knowledge skills can help with identifying opponent capabilities and weaknesses.
..Arcana – constructs, dragons, and magical beasts
..Dungeoneering – aberrations and oozes
..Nature – animals, fey, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin
..Planes – outsiders
..Religion – undead
Acrobatics, climb, and swim can help you moving around.
Linguistics can help you communicate with others or read their documents.
Put at least 1 point into perception and each class skills (except craft and profession the 1 point is plenty for now).
Your class skills are Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Then keep perception high, raise a social skill (diplomacy, intimidate, bluff, or sense motive), then put the rest into whatever skills have seemed useful to you so far (or might have been useful if it had been a bit higher).
I know at least one of them is still playing the character I handed her, though she ended up changing the feat and gear plans pretty substantially since she bought some more books to use.
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I certainly don't push them on anyone. We have had some difficulty a couple of times explaining the animal companion, TWF, oversized weapon, firearm rules to complete newbies before.
Just pointing out that, incidentally enough, all of those rules areas have a PFS pregen for them, so it's really not any different from handing them one of those pregens.
Lini: Animal Companion.
Valeros: Two Weapon Fighting.
Amiri: Oversized Weapon.
Lirianne: Firearm Rules.
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I don't see any difference between doing this and playing a pregen at level 1. I suppose you could argue both are a little cheesy, but there really isn't a difference.
Personally, I have never completely rebuilt a character when it hit level 2. I have done some rebuilding, usually things like feat, skill or spell selection changes, but I have never changed a class or race using the rebuild rules. Maybe that's because I already have a fairly strong idea of what type of character I want to play before I even play it, but I realize not everyone plans things out ahead of time like that. Of course, that's just me.
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I don't see any difference between doing this and playing a pregen at level 1. I suppose you could argue both are a little cheesy, but there really isn't a difference.
Personally, I have never completely rebuilt a character when it hit level 2. I have done some rebuilding, usually things like feat, skill or spell selection changes, but I have never changed a class or race using the rebuild rules. Maybe that's because I already have a fairly strong idea of what type of character I want to play before I even play it, but I realize not everyone plans things out ahead of time like that. Of course, that's just me.
I can't imagine not planning out a character in its entirety before playing it..
Developer
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It has irked me as a campaign participant more often than as a campaign staff member. When everyone but me at the table is playing a human Fencing Grace warpriest during a 1st-level adventure, I'm a little put off—especially if many are doing this for the second time with the intention of retraining at level 2.
The pregenerated characters are also the game's iconic characters, in which Paizo invests a lot of time, art, and attention. We certainly want players—especially newer players—to get to know an iconic character, how she fits into the world, and what that can tell a person about the rest of the campaign setting. Perhaps I'm a little more invested than that, given the effort the editorial and art team is putting into the next batch of pregenerated characters at this very moment.
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I can't imagine not planning out a character in its entirety before playing it..I don't see any difference between doing this and playing a pregen at level 1. I suppose you could argue both are a little cheesy, but there really isn't a difference.
Personally, I have never completely rebuilt a character when it hit level 2. I have done some rebuilding, usually things like feat, skill or spell selection changes, but I have never changed a class or race using the rebuild rules. Maybe that's because I already have a fairly strong idea of what type of character I want to play before I even play it, but I realize not everyone plans things out ahead of time like that. Of course, that's just me.
Everyone is different. Some people will plan out every feat and skill point they will take all the way up through 12th level before the character ever steps foot on a play mat. Personally, I plan out the character concept mentally, but don't go into heavy nuts and bolts details unless it would be required to get to where I am going with the character (such as shooting for a prestige class). Part of this is simply that I discover some things work better on paper than in the game. It also allows me to be more flexible in evolving the character based on event that have occurred in the game. And, of course, some people don't put a lot of planning into their characters at all. Frequently, to these people, it is the play that is important, not the character building.
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Everyone is different. Some people will plan out every feat and skill point they will take all the way up through 12th level before the character ever steps foot on a play mat. Personally, I plan out the character concept mentally, but don't go into heavy nuts and bolts details unless it would be required to get to where I am going with the character (such as shooting for a prestige class). Part of this is simply that I discover some things work better on paper than in the game. It also allows me to be more flexible in evolving the character based on event that have occurred in the game. And, of course, some people don't put a lot of planning into their characters at all. Frequently, to these people, it is the play that is important, not the character building.I can't imagine not planning out a character in its entirety before playing it..I don't see any difference between doing this and playing a pregen at level 1. I suppose you could argue both are a little cheesy, but there really isn't a difference.
Personally, I have never completely rebuilt a character when it hit level 2. I have done some rebuilding, usually things like feat, skill or spell selection changes, but I have never changed a class or race using the rebuild rules. Maybe that's because I already have a fairly strong idea of what type of character I want to play before I even play it, but I realize not everyone plans things out ahead of time like that. Of course, that's just me.
That's true. When I said "entirety" that was a bit too much. I'll plan ability score increases and feat progression. (and obviously traits and ability scores, but those are obviously done at lvl 1 regardless). I don't plan out individual skill ranks or spell choices (assuming spontaneous casters). Mostly it's just because lately I've taken to building multi-classed themed characters so I need to have the archetypes planned out, the class-per-level choices, and all of the feats to make sure it all meets what I wanted.
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The pregenerated characters are also the game's iconic characters, in which Paizo invests a lot of time, art, and attention. We certainly want players—especially newer players—to get to know an iconic character, how she fits into the world, and what that can tell a person about the rest of the campaign setting. Perhaps I'm a little more invested than that, given the effort the editorial and art team is putting into the next batch of pregenerated characters at this very moment.
A lot of pregens are more popular than others around here. Whenever someone tells me "I want to play a ranger," I give a little spiel about how much they would like the hunter, which is almost like a ranger (I do so especially if they want to try out an archer). So far, that has been an extremely effective tactic in getting people interested (They love the bow and the animal companion!). The only reason I do this is because I have had more than 1 complaint from new players about how they felt very ineffective at a table playing as Harsk. When the pregen gets to that point, it is a problem.
Seelah, Kyra, Seoni, Hayoto, Amiri, as well as pretty much all of the Advanced Class Guide pregens, have been well received by veterans and new players alike. If the new pregens are anything like those, I can guarantee you that they will be used and that efforts won't be put to waste. While a great backstory is also required to make a great pregen, if the mechanics fall flat too much, the pregen simply isn't going to get played.
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It has irked me as a campaign participant...
I am largely of this opinion. But seeing as how its perfectly legal, I usually just frown when I see it being done. I might raise an eyebrow, or say, "really?" If I'm advising a new player, I do not advise them to do this sort of thing and I also tell others, who if are in my presence, that is poor form to advise others to do this.
But I suppose that's the purist or old school roleplayer in me. The Grognard. My experience has been, that the character matters, and verisimilitude matters. And if the character changes mid-stream, then its really not the sum of all its experiences. It is a metagame choice made simply for power, survivability and optimization.
What I've grown to realize though, is that this is how a video game plays. I love Mass Effect (all three parts) and Dragon's Age (all iterations so far). But I make the choice not to use the rebuild options in the video game. Because to me, the story of who my character is matters. Even in a video game where nobody but me and the 1's and 0's of code care. But I understand that those options are available in the game, because the consumers of video games like those options. They like to be able to re-optimize their character once they figure out how the game plays. They like to make optimal choices that negate the chance of death, or to some degree challenge, even on hard or suicide mode. For them, the challenge is avoiding the challenge by making the perfect choices before the challenge arrives. For me, I like beating the challenge in spite of the (even mistaken) sub-optimal choices I've made. My first run through of Dragon's Age, I hadn't played a story driven video game in probably 15 years, and did not realize there were all these side quests (or that I couldn't go back to them after completing the primary storyline). So the game was designed to be challenging by reaching the end at 20th or so level at the end. And I completed it at 14th level because I missed all the side-quest experience. I felt both foolish and prideful at that accomplishment.
If we want to get the game to expand and grow with new people, we have to find those people somewhere. And not all groups of people we pull into our favorite passtime are going to come in with the same Grognard attitude that I have. And so I've come to accept that others may have differing starting attitudes. Ones that may never change. And if we want to keep them in our hobby, to keep it growing and expanding, we have to accept that this attitude is going to stay.
I may not like it, I may not teach it, and I may council against teaching new folk who have no opinion one way or another to approach the game in that manner, I'm not going to outright denigrate those who come in with that manner of game play.
Its legal, and by the very nature of how those people learned to play games, that is an accepted method of optimization. To them, the story of the character doesn't matter, but rather the numbers behind the character are what matter.
TL;DR: To each their own.
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The pregenerated characters are also the game's iconic characters, in which Paizo invests a lot of time, art, and attention. We certainly want players—especially newer players—to get to know an iconic character, how she fits into the world, and what that can tell a person about the rest of the campaign setting. Perhaps I'm a little more invested than that, given the effort the editorial and art team is putting into the next batch of pregenerated characters at this very moment.A lot of pregens are more popular than others around here. Whenever someone tells me "I want to play a ranger," I give a little spiel about how much they would like the hunter, which is almost like a ranger (I do so especially if they want to try out an archer). So far, that has been an extremely effective tactic in getting people interested (They love the bow and the animal companion!). The only reason I do this is because I have had more than 1 complaint from new players about how they felt very ineffective at a table playing as Harsk. When the pregen gets to that point, it is a problem.
Seelah, Kyra, Seoni, Hayoto, Amiri, as well as pretty much all of the Advanced Class Guide pregens, have been well received by veterans and new players alike. If the new pregens are anything like those, I can guarantee you that they will be used and that efforts won't be put to waste. While a great backstory is also required to make a great pregen, if the mechanics fall flat too much, the pregen simply isn't going to get played.
As much as my previous post discussed story over numbers, this is a game that has mechanics surrounding how to play it. And rather than purposefully make a bunch of sub-optimal choices simply to fit a story, I try to make as many optimal choices that fit my story as I can.
So far, the only pregen I have an issue with, is Harsk. Because his story didn't just get in the way of the mechanics, but actually make him an ineffective character at higher levels. At least the original iteration. There was a small rebuild after the NPC Codex came out, that gave him rapid shot at 7th level, which allowed him to at least shoot his bow once a round, instead of once every other round.
But his story essentially says, "He's better with his axe, but uses his crossbow instead." So those of us who care about roleplaying the character's story, want to use his crossbow instead of his axe. Because that's who Harsk is. Those who don't care about the pregen's story, will often choose to use the Axe, because he's quite effective with it.
While I don't expect all the standard optimal choices be made of crossbow mastery, deadly aim, rapid shot, or even the vital strike chain of feats... I would prefer that the build choices for the iconics not only fit their story, but had some optimal choices to use that fit their story.
Other than Harsk, though, I really enjoy most of the pregens. I've seen a confused Valeros kill an optimized barbarian.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I don't have a problem with someone who has a "stable" of characters, and pulls one out for a pickup game when they don't have anything else to hand. Admittedly I am more likely to pull a pregen in that situation. (Though now I am considering making some mechanically tweaked pregens to fit my play style.)
I do feel that someone who plays every first level game with a single optimized character a little boring and cheezy (I almost wish that if that is what they want, the would just gm their PCs past level 1 and let the rest of us play.)
Honestly, I usually use those first few games to get my character's personality pinned down, while I can still adjust his traits to fit his personality.
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Perhaps, a rebuild of the iconics is in order then? They are uniformly awful to play with. Spell selection is bad, feat and trait selection is worse, equipment selection can best be described as random.
I can't agree with any of that. There are certain pregens that I would certainly suggest a new player not try (Harsk), there are several pregens that are quite optimized at what they do. Kyra is quite optimized at hurting undead and healing.
Just because build choices aren't the standard most optimized choices, does not make them "uniformly awful to play with."
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I have no problems with any of the reasons listed. I do not like playing with min-maxed characters, so I will see that as the real problem. You might find a jerk in any or your examples, but that has little to do with the retraining rules.
I retrained my play-test arcanist into a wizard/sorcerer because I felt it covered the 'fire mage' better than arcanist could, but otherwise I have not used retraining (none of my others were level 1 when the rule came out). On deck I have a 1st level oread saurian shaman, a 1st level oread magus, and a 1st level oread inquisitor. I will offer each to any first level I tables I end up at. (At the rate I am going I may even have a 1st level oread occultist to offer.) I think I am not sure which one of these 'siblings' will survive graduate and make it to level two, but that is what retraining is all about for me. :)
I have also had at least 3 people that seemed completely overwhelmed by the thought of designing a character themselves. And a lot of the advice they get requires 5-6 books.
This is a bigger issue for me. It is especially hard to tell a newbie these options will require a much greater initial investment than advertised. Pre-gens (gunslingers) can also do this, but at least their abilities are on the page.
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I am frustrated with experienced players maximizing their builds at 1st level intending to change it at second because it feels like they are "gaming" the system. I expect new players to change things.
If someone has created some premade characters, and are willing to spend the time with a brand new to the table player to get them set up so they can do the important thing PLAY, I am ecstatic.
The iconic characters are mostly playable. (see comments about Harsk lol). The almost universal complaint for new players and experienced players who are using them to try something new is that the stat block layout makes it difficult to use. We took the iconic characters put them on character sheets and then stapled them to the downloaded iconic sheet, problem solved. However if the powers that be (waves madly at John)would some day make the iconic downloads look like a character sheet with cool art and story it would be very very cool. (I know everyone's a critic.)
We have an argument (polite but to heated to be called a debate) here at the store whether in society we are playing characters or playing stat blocks. I see the comments on this dividing along the same lines and I am going to take the same stance here I do in the store. It is less important what we are playing, the important part is that we play.
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The wizards spellbooks thinner than the the sharp edge of reality
with valeros dual wielding calling miss is mere formality
The one to pick I fear I must prognosticate
with cons that low i doubt at all they can coagulate
Why anyone would play a toon this bad remains a mystery
I can't believe you'd tolerate them in your character history
with Merisiels lack of social skills you will achieve
a little less p a then if you'd maxed out ranks in basket-weave
That I'd rather eat an otyug may speak to my neurology
but the saranite is limited to healing methodology
the thought of picking any one of them's unbearable
Harsk is bad beyond the worst but every pregens terrible.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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One thing I do miss in the pregens, especially at level 1, is a dedicated archer. Some of the pregens have a bow, but none of them have Precise Shot at level 1, and that's a showstopper.
"Elven archer" isn't the most original concept ever, but it's something that quite a few new players express interest in.
Bonus would be a picture on the backside of the sheet explaining the (ranged) cover rules with a simple picture. I think the tactical depth of moving to shoot without cover is a nice taste of that side of PF, without being overwhelming. But, Precise Shot really is required for the pregen to feel effective in often cramped low-level dungeons.
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It has irked me as a campaign participant more often than as a campaign staff member. When everyone but me at the table is playing a human Fencing Grace warpriest during a 1st-level adventure, I'm a little put off—especially if many are doing this for the second time with the intention of retraining at level 2.
The pregenerated characters are also the game's iconic characters, in which Paizo invests a lot of time, art, and attention. We certainly want players—especially newer players—to get to know an iconic character, how she fits into the world, and what that can tell a person about the rest of the campaign setting. Perhaps I'm a little more invested than that, given the effort the editorial and art team is putting into the next batch of pregenerated characters at this very moment.
Perhaps, a rebuild of the iconics is in order then? They are uniformly awful to play with. Spell selection is bad, feat and trait selection is worse, equipment selection can best be described as random.
Ideally we should be able to hand a new player any of the 1st level pregens and tell them that it makes an adequate vanilla starting character to play until they get a feel for PFS and Pathfinder. Just change the name and treat it as a players -1 character but I can't see doing that with any of them.
On the threads topic, I am not a big fan of playing at first level and avoid it by building characters with GM credit. I will not look down upon anyone who uses any allowed trick to make playing at first easier on them.
Challenge accepted!!!!!!!!!
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Perhaps, a rebuild of the iconics is in order then? They are uniformly awful to play with. Spell selection is bad, feat and trait selection is worse, equipment selection can best be described as random.
I can't agree with any of that. There are certain pregens that I would certainly suggest a new player not try (Harsk), there are several pregens that are quite optimized at what they do. Kyra is quite optimized at hurting undead and healing.
Just because build choices aren't the standard most optimized choices, does not make them "uniformly awful to play with."
Quoted For Truth.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I think the problem with this is that the characters that folks are going to train out of tend to be: 1) Optimized for combat and 2) Light on backstory and motivation. So, they trivialize the combat aspect of the game and don't contribute to the social aspect.
Obviously, different flavors for different folks, but I don't find that particularly fun or fun to play around. (I had a rough run of The Stolen Heir where two people were one-shoting every combat and failing to meaningfully move the story forward.)
That said, I have a bit of a quirky backup character that I'll sometimes play instead of a level 1 pre-gen. He's been around long enough that I can bring more personality to the table with him than, say, Valeros.
So, more a table etiquette issue to me. I don't have any problems with the retraining rules.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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I'll take an example that came up because I had a new player take it and I took a close look at it trying to help him.
Ezren: To start with no skill point in perception nor in any social skill. Then the feats, great fortitude at first level? Not toughness or a metamagic or any of a dozen other feats sure to be more useful? next we get to a fairly obvious error he should have 7 hp not 8 (6 + 1 for 13 con, no fcb), gear includes no splash weapon and no healing potion (both of which would be a better option at first level for a wizard than 2 melee weapons and a light crossbow).All in all it results in a character with 3 spells that are sure to be useful and then it turns into a frustrating character to play. Change some choices and it would be the same character but a much better first level character and a much better pregen to give to new players. For instance dump the combat casting and great fortitude for point blank and precise shot. That makes the acid splash and hand of the apprentice much more effective and those will be the bread and butter attacks on the first several adventures.
Why would he put skill points into Perception or a social skill? He is a wizard, and those aren't class skills for him.
Seriously? You want to give a first level wizard a metamagic feat?
I disagree that one-use items are better than a melee weapon (for using hand of the apprentice) and a light crossbow (pretty much the standard low-level caster offensive choice to conserve spells).
Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot don't fit a character that won't focus on ranged attacks at higher levels.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot don't fit a character that won't focus on ranged attacks at higher levels.
All in all it results in a character with 3 spells that are sure to be useful and then it turns into a frustrating character to play. Change some choices and it would be the same character but a much better first level character and a much better pregen to give to new players. For instance dump the combat casting and great fortitude for point blank and precise shot. That makes the acid splash and hand of the apprentice much more effective and those will be the bread and butter attacks on the first several adventures.
Well, clearly he is going to train them out when he gets his second level rebuild :)
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I really don't care, but this situation has never happened to me, so the situation might change after that.
Regarding the Pregens, I make pretty definitive suggestions when it comes to giving them to players, and I have toyed with the idea simply not to bring some of them.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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I am glad the first level rebuild rules are there. Most of my characters don't use them, but there have been a couple of instances that they proved useful.
I used them to switch out toughness for spell focus on my Silver Crusade trap expert. This resulted in the hit points only slightly increasing at second level and the rest of the character played the same.
On my Bloodrager, I have dialed back the damage, going for some better defenses. It is still able to one shot low level opponents, just less overkill and now has a Will save.
I don't have any interest in having a stable of cardboard cut-out characters. I just like tweaking things a little based on what happens in game.
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I certainly don't push them on anyone. We have had some difficulty a couple of times explaining the animal companion, TWF, oversized weapon, firearm rules to complete newbies before.Just pointing out that, incidentally enough, all of those rules areas have a PFS pregen for them, so it's really not any different from handing them one of those pregens.
Lini: Animal Companion.
Valeros: Two Weapon Fighting.
Amiri: Oversized Weapon.
Lirianne: Firearm Rules.
I think that's actually his point: because several of the pregens have these complicated rules, he has a folder of characters that don't.
Side note: a "skill level rating" on the pregens could be handy, or even just a list of which pregens would you hand brand new players and which pregens you would never five a brand new player and why.
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I certainly don't push them on anyone. We have had some difficulty a couple of times explaining the animal companion, TWF, oversized weapon, firearm rules to complete newbies before.Just pointing out that, incidentally enough, all of those rules areas have a PFS pregen for them, so it's really not any different from handing them one of those pregens.
Lini: Animal Companion.
Valeros: Two Weapon Fighting.
Amiri: Oversized Weapon.
Lirianne: Firearm Rules.I think that's actually his point: because several of the pregens have these complicated rules, he has a folder of characters that don't.
Side note: a "skill level rating" on the pregens could be handy, or even just a list of which pregens would you hand brand new players and which pregens you would never give a brand new player and why.
Exactly! They saw those precise pregens and were instantly set on running them. Even wanting to build their first actual character that way. But they just didn't understand the rules for those choices.
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Even with those examples, I don't have any problems of a lvl 1 human barbarian with 20 con, toughness, tribal scars, and tireless (odd how the hp increasing feats and trait all start with 't')--for a total of 27 hp at lvl 1 and then retraining into something else before playing lvl 2.
I mean 28! I forgot the FCB into hp..
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I am frustrated with experienced players maximizing their builds at 1st level intending to change it at second because it feels like they are "gaming" the system. ...
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.I think the problem with this is that the characters that folks are going to train out of tend to be: 1) Optimized for combat and 2) Light on backstory and motivation. So, they trivialize the combat aspect of the game and don't contribute to the social aspect. ...
The stable of PC's I bring in example 1, a very clearly not hyper optimized combat machines. They are carefully intended to be learning instruments. They have a variety of ways they can contribute at the table, yet they stick to the CRB and fairly easy to learn options. They are good enough to be successful clear through level 12, but certainly not anything truly exceptional.
The PC's brought by the guys in example 3, are optimized for survivability (just so they don't have to worry about starting yet again), but can clearly still contribute. Buff spells, healing, some perception/knowledge skills, AoO, etc... But they don't steal the thunder from anyone else. Since they have played them many times, they have had the opportunity to give them a more extensive background and personality than most level 1 PFS characters.
Those guys have played/GM'd all the level 1 scenarios, but they can't always start a guy at level 2. They GM fairly often, but there aren't always a lot of folks willing to GM the higher level scenarios.
So they have to play through the low levels. They make a build that can survive even a bad situation created by a newbie (it does happen occasionally), can help the others survive/succeed, and have something to play if they weren't expecting to play a level 1 table.
I will also note, to the best of my knowledge they are extremely good at helping to bring along new players (better than me). They can coach and advise without just telling them what to do. They can give option choices without spoiling the surprise of the situation. Let the new person make the decisions and help them succeed no matter what.
On those rare occasions when there are ONLY very experienced players at the table, I hear that they have done speed runs through 3 of the level 1's in an afternoon to get their 2nd level characters going.
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Exactly! They saw those precise pregens and were instantly set on running them. Even wanting to build their first actual character that way. But they just didn't understand the rules for those choices.I certainly don't push them on anyone. We have had some difficulty a couple of times explaining the animal companion, TWF, oversized weapon, firearm rules to complete newbies before.Just pointing out that, incidentally enough, all of those rules areas have a PFS pregen for them, so it's really not any different from handing them one of those pregens.
Lini: Animal Companion.
Valeros: Two Weapon Fighting.
Amiri: Oversized Weapon.
Lirianne: Firearm Rules.I think that's actually his point: because several of the pregens have these complicated rules, he has a folder of characters that don't.
Side note: a "skill level rating" on the pregens could be handy, or even just a list of which pregens would you hand brand new players and which pregens you would never give a brand new player and why.
Something else to note - if you know you are going to be running with new people using the pregens, I beleive Lini has summon Nature's ally, but no stats for what she can summon, so bring a bestiary
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With regard to the pregens:
For the most part, I personally, am ok with them. Especially the 1st (and probably even the 4th) level versions. I haven't played all of them, but the first few levels on most of the scenarios are easy enough that clever play can pretty easily make up for the sub-optimal builds. At higher levels the feat, spell, skill, and magic item choices sometimes seem... arbitrary and even confusing. When you look at it and say "Why would anyone do (or not do) that?" it gets a bit harder.
There was even a group a few years ago that was trying to prove that even the most difficult scenarios were playable with only pregens. As I recall they were succeeding, but were having to work pretty hard to do it.
I am aware that some other players are very much disappointed in the pregens. Their biggest issue is that the pregens don't deliver on what they supposedly are portrayed to be.
This one doesn't have skill ranks in what the text says he does several times.
That one can't perform the maneuvers (at least not well) that (s)he supposedly uses.
Etc...
I can't give the details since I haven't tried to read through every book, making a list of everything they should have, then comparing that to the pregens. Apparently some of them have and were disappointed. {shrug} I don't know.