So with this round 2 I have lost hope for the Warlock to actually be a decent 3/4 BAB 6-level caster...
So, seeing as they seem set on punishing spell casting (5 talents just to get freaking progression and 2 talents just to cast in armor??? That is 70% of your comvbat talents to get what everyone else gets for free..), i was thinking, why not just scrap casting, make bolt the primary ability, and give him talents to alter his blasts (ala 3.5 Warlock) and gain Su and Sp abilities like the Shadow Body ability. He would not be a caster in the conventional sense but is magical.
What do you all think of this?
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I like the option to mix and match, so I'm not willing to throw out the spellcasting yet, but I do agree something still needs fixing on this side.
I like the casting vs bolts dynamic at some level. It's the complimentary stuff to go with it that I think needs the biggest revamp. Everything is false choices right now.
I'd prefer it if diminished casting was an option. Say, if you don't choose to advance your casting then your existing spells are heightened for free. So you could just be a Warlock with 2nd level casting and be satisfied with that.
I'd hate it. You make a pretty crappy warlock if you only have two or three magic tricks.
I'd hate it. You make a pretty crappy warlock if you only have two or three magic tricks.
Which is ironic because that's pretty much EXACTLY what the 3.5 Warlock was, and people loved it.
Also, the Warlock that only uses Mystic Bolt and tricks related to that elemental blast already exists and is called the Kineticist
Which is ironic because that's pretty much EXACTLY what the 3.5 Warlock was, and people loved it.
Warlock had all it's ability unlimited use, and had a large variety of invocations and is still considered the weakest arcane class, with most people using only a specific blast shape to deal decent damage. The warlock, is only a quarter of a class. There is no hope of the class having the same number of powers, simply because there is no where near enough space in the book.
What I was thinking would actually be pretty flavourful and unique and honestly, get rid of casting (since they apparantly don't want the casters to get casting...)
1) Give them a Bardic Knowledge type talent. This would help create the sort of trope of the who dabbles in occult lore and has learned a lot, but mostly has book knowledge.
2) Give them a Spellbook+ Scribe Scroll. They would not be spell casters in the normal sense though. The Spellbook would give them a bonus to Spellcraft Checks to identify spells (they got notes of everything in their books) and allow them to scribe scrolls of spells they have learned.
3) Give them a set of talents to allow them to use Rods, Staves, Wands, and Scrolls in unique ways. i.e. let them cast spells from scrolls with CL set to their Vigilante level. Take examples from things like Cyphermage.
This would make the Warlock a Psuedo-caster (with items and such) and create a more feel on a guy who focuses on Occult and Arcane relics and dabbles a but into magic (which would be his bolt ability and certain other Su/Sp abilities)
That might be more fitting for an occult specialization than arcane.
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This is what I see as the "default" Warlock Build
Level 2 - You have choice here, and this is the flavor of your warlock. I see Arcane Striker, Bombs, Caster's Defense, Familiar, or Tatoo Container being the common choices, although since you can get Arcane strike via feats, I think the other three are the "better" choices.
Arcane Stiker - More punch to mystic bolts
Bombs - Alternate attack method. Won't be as good as other bombers.
Caster's Defense - Casting in armor is useful
Familiar - Familiars are nice to have for many characters
Tatoo Container - Nobody else can do this...making this my favorite.
Level 4 - Arcane II OR Mystic Bolts (You are taking both, just a matter of which one first.)
Level 6 - Whichever talent you didn't take at 4
Level 8 - Arcane III
Level 10 - Arcane IV
Level 12 - This is the second choice. Likely educated defense or shadow jump, but you have a few options here. (As far as I'm concerned, characters are retired at 12 anyway, so this choice isn't relevant to me.)
The point is...you can do both Mystic Bolt (with 1 element) and full spellcasting. It just makes all the other choices available not matter so much. There really isn't a lot of building around mystic bolt unless you want multiple elements.
What's really needed is more real choices and possibly talent chains.
1) Bombs - Sure you can get discoveries, but no matter what you do, you will always be a sub-par bomber. My "fixes" are new talents with Bombs talent as a prereq.
A - Talent to give throw anything and allow int to damage on bombs.
B - Extra Bomb Talent +2 bombs at level 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. (one talent for all of these bonuses, not taking it 5 times.)
The Logic: This makes bombs 3 deep with more if you get into bomb discoveries. Those two talents close the gap on the alchemist as far as being a bomber, but you'll still be less versatile. Without the addition of these two talents, bombs can only ever be a side thing, because you'll always be not as good at it due to no int to damage, or it's not worth investing in due to the limited number of bombs.
2) Mystic Bolt - The only supporting talent for this arcane striker or picking new elements. Picking new elements is nice, but in my mind, once you take one type of mystic bolt, it isn't worth investing in more if you are giving up spellcasting. Giving some chain feats that support mystic bolt as a viable path you want to invest in may make it worth giving up extra spellcasting. (Arcane Striker as the current support really only works if you invest in spellcasting, making it a catch-22.)
A - Mystic Bolt Master (level 6) - Weapon Focus(Mystic Bolt) at 6, Weapon Specialist (Mystic Bolt) at 12, Improved Critical (Mystic Bolt) at 18
B - Improved Mystic Bolt (level 8 min) - +1d6 damage to mystic bolts, apply conditions on critical hits.
C - Greater Mystic Bolt (level 12 min, req Improved) - +1d6 damage to mystic bolts, allow conditions to stack for greater conditions)
D - Positive Energy, Negative Energy, Force (Level 10 min?) - Allow new damage types beyond elemental damage. Each damage type selected separately, just like elements.
The Logic: This allows to actually invest in mystic bolts to be really good at it. Just using 1 element, this is an investment of 4 of your 6 talents through level 12, meaning that you'd be giving up the ability to cast 3rd and 4th level spells at least, and you are making real decisions about whether to invest in level 2 each time a talent comes up. If you want to use new damage types in addition to the other perks, you now invested all your talents in mystic bolts after level 2, so you don't take any arcane talents. The point is, it's a real choice. I don't feel it is right now.
3) Spellcasting - What if we gave another way to be special as a spellcaster, looking at other versions of warlock for inspiration.
A - Spell Specialist - Select one spell you know that isn't of the highest level you can cast. You can now cast that spell at will without using one of your spell slots. Make a will save of 10 + spell level + # of times you've cast this spell since you last slept 8 hours. If you fail, you are fatigued. If you are already fatigued, you are exhausted. If you are already exhausted, you immediately take
non-lethal damage equal to your current HP.
The Logic: Now you can make a choice of being more spammy with a spell (with a risk). You can't spam infinitely because you'll knock yourself out, but you can certainly throw a spell out a bunch of times. This also gives you reason to pick that same spell as a signature spell. This choice probably isn't usually made against spellcasting levels, but it's a choice against mystic bolt as your secondary trick. I'm least convinced on this one as it is most abusable. DC might been to be higher. Might need to be 2 levels below your highest level spell (meaning you need level 3 spells before selecting a spammed level 1).
Shadows - We get a little taste of a shadow build with living shadow at level 6, and Shadow Jump at 12. Embracing the shadow dancer stuff in a base class seems good, as well as some new stuff. Shadow Conjuration. Shadow power (perhaps shadow damage type for mystic bolt?), shadow illusion, shadow call. They all seem very thematic, and you could build a warlock around them as an alternative to the spellcaster. Some other possibilities:
Shadow Armor - shadows dance around you giving 20% concealment?
Shadow's Sight - See Stalker ability
Fearful Shadows - You make shadows dance around you in the area, putting everyone on edge. (20' aura, DC 10+1/2level+ChaMod, cause shaken condition for 1d4 rounds)
The Logic: I haven't thought this one through quite as much for balance, but I think this direction is worth looking at, since I think it could be fleshed out into an alternate build that can stand on it's own and isn't dependent on the spellcasting from Arcane talents. Basically, your "magic" is the ability to control the shadows around you for great effect, making you a psuedo Shadowdancer. (NOTE: This might make a better archtype for the vigilante than just more talents.)
Anyway...the overall theme is I want more hard choices and multiple paths to design.
I think a shadow-path vigilante could be really cool and flavorful. They could use the mystic bolt to dazzle, obscure the vision of (20% miss chance), and even eventually blind targets. Maybe a way to drain hit points to heal. I think something like the 5th Edition witchbolt with a range of 60 feet that caused 1 point of damage at 1st level, doubled each round (up to the vigilante's level), and healing the same amount.
Walls of shadow could provide concealment and possibly scare opponents (Will saves vs. fear to avoid or approach the wall).
Shadow investiture to make the vigilante stronger, faster, tougher, resilient, quicker, stealthier, dodgier, durable, pure, etc.
Shadow-leaping beginning at 2nd level. 5th Edition has showed me that short range teleporting isn't over powered and really quite fun.
I think a vigilante archetype that replaces mystic bolt for arcane training I at 1st level with a variety of carrier effects, bolt shapes, and increases in damage amounts and types can be talents.
