Simulacrum Tarrasques anyone?
There's TWO of me now?
Awesome!!!
Don't tell Mrs. Tarrasque; wouldn't want to confuse her now...
Wait a minute. This new guy seems awfully frail. Haha! That's even better. I'll dominate him old-school and make him bring me my lunch! Thanks for making me a fully armored butler!
Any time Mr.Tarrasque :P.
Actually it never struck me just how powerful that thing would be... at level 15.... I wonder why I never thought of that. Up against a Nasty Balor? Bring a Simulacrum Tarrasque... not many of his abilities are level dependent anyway...
^^^
This... funny this is that that book kinda fixed the disparity between mundane vs magical and we see how well it was accepted... People STILL complained, saying "its too weeaboo" or "it is to magical! it makes no sense!!!"
THIS my friends is the problem of trying to "fix" mundanes...
Yup, that was me. I'm shocked that you heard me, I guess I complain really loudly.
Seriously though, I didn't like the THEME of the fix. The mechanics were sound, but I don't like the thought of martials getting what were essentially spells...
Neat book if you are okay with the theme though, cool stuff.
Remove Rogue and Fighter from the game.
Create gestalt version of them:
D10 hit dice, 8 skill points etc.
Add all class abilities from BOTH (extra feats, rogue abilities etc).
All saves are strong, as per Monk.
At level 6, class gains ability to make full attack as standard action.
Problem solved.
Call class something cool, like Weapon Master or something...
Also give them fast heal 1 starting at level 12 or so.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
^^^
This... funny this is that that book kinda fixed the disparity between mundane vs magical and we see how well it was accepted... People STILL complained, saying "its too weeaboo" or "it is to magical! it makes no sense!!!"
THIS my friends is the problem of trying to "fix" mundanes...
Although I use and can enjoy Path of War, my usual complaint about it is mostly that it 'feels' vancian. I picked up an alternate approach to it that's similar to Stamina before Path of War was fully out and it worked out great but the scope was nowhere near as big as Path of war. I like better the idea of martial being inherently spontaneous or point based rather than feeling like vancian fighting. Otherwise I'm all for higher level martials going full-on anime mode. At that point I can't imagine not having Charles Atlas Powers.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Stuff.
The thing is that there is literally no mythology where there isn't a least a handful of mundane folk who have simply transcended being mundane shmucks. Hercules, Cu Chulainn, Beowolf, etc. are noted European/Mediterranean examples. I'm sure there are African, South American and other examples, too!
The concept of the dude who doesn't wield magic but is capable of doing things so far beyond the realm of his mortal ken is probably the most common thing in history, far more so than the finger-wiggling wizard.
Path of War is a strong answer to letting martials do nice things, but it doesn't really go far enough. It brings the beatsticks up to where they're useful and effective, but it doesn't stop the Wizards and Druids and Clerics and Shamans of the world from ruining everything with their "I'VE GOT A SPELL FOR THAT" shenanigans. Which is why you replace them with refluffed Psionics or Spheres of Power. Now everybody is roughly around the same level, nobody can ruin the game with a single well-placed spell, and you can really tell fantasy tales without part of the group being relegated to packmule and Coup de Grace machine.
Create martial "schools" and allow Fighters to gain multiple feat slots just like arcanes gain spell slots. Certain Feats will be level dependent, just like spells. Certain martial types can swap them out daily, like Wizards; some are "locked in" like Sorcerers.
Paizo is already breaking down the limited Feats access with Martial Flexibility, which is a step in the right direction.
Having leveled Combat Feats opens up for more creativity, and ultimately to create Combat Feats that rival high level Spells.
Stuff.The thing is that there is literally no mythology where there isn't a least a handful of mundane folk who have simply transcended being mundane shmucks. Hercules, Cu Chulainn, Beowolf, etc. are noted European/Mediterranean examples. I'm sure there are African, South American and other examples, too!
To be fair, Hercules and Cu are demigods, not mundane folk.
Neither can a wizard, for that matter. A high level commander isn't going to abandon a cause he's fighting for just because he may treat one person on the other side as his buddy.(and he may very well be protected from such simple mind magic, the same way PC's are. Assuming he has the slightest possibility of being open to the idea, that's where diplomacy and what's that thing called again? ... Ah yes, roleplaying come into play.
fighters can murder just about anything, but can they use charm person on the enemy commander and avoid a conflict altogether?
charm person, now your friend, you then negotiate a peace deal... because he likes you he is much more inclined to accept a fair peace deal than continue fighting.
diplomacy at best get's him from hostile to unfriendly, charm person? he's your bro. that's the disparity.
Neither can a wizard, for that matter. A high level commander isn't going to abandon a cause he's fighting for just because he may treat one person on the other side as his buddy.(and he may very well be protected from such simple mind magic, the same way PC's are. Assuming he has the slightest possibility of being open to the idea, that's where diplomacy and what's that thing called again? ... Ah yes, roleplaying come into play.
fighters can murder just about anything, but can they use charm person on the enemy commander and avoid a conflict altogether?
Charm person is basically useless.
If someone charmed a despot/dictator, he would be friends with him, but wouldn't stop ruling his kingdom the way he always had...
People treat this spell like it controls the target, it does not...
The caster would have to use something like Dominate, Suggestion, Geas, Curse or other spells that the fighter can't cast.
|
Am I the only one who noticed how quickly this thread devolved from trying to actually come up with reasonable solutions to another - "martials are weak - rebuild the system from the ground up!" thread?
Lol
(Of note - I actually agree that at higher levels [9ish + - though depends upon the martial] martials are weaker - but few are saying anything like a solution sans the rebuilding of the entire class system.)
Am I the only one who noticed how quickly this thread devolved from trying to actually come up with reasonable solutions to another - "martials are weak - rebuild the system from the ground up!" thread?
Lol
(Of note - I actually agree that at higher levels [9ish + - though depends upon the martial] martials are weaker - but few are saying anything like a solution sans the rebuilding of the entire class system.)
We have this thread like once a month because there is no quickfix, especially when people can't even agree about the problem.
You can never leave Hotel California.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
To be fair, Hercules and Cu are demigods, not mundane folk.Stuff.The thing is that there is literally no mythology where there isn't a least a handful of mundane folk who have simply transcended being mundane shmucks. Hercules, Cu Chulainn, Beowolf, etc. are noted European/Mediterranean examples. I'm sure there are African, South American and other examples, too!
At level 12+, everybody is so ridiculously past the point of being superhuman in their actions that they might as well already be demigods.
Or at least they should be, but only spellcasters are in PF. Despite the fact that this is a level-based game, and if the levels don't mean that things of the same level are roughly similar in power, then the levels are meaningless.
Most of us are just sick of NPC classes being advertised as PC classes. If the Fighter is, by design, supposed to be absolutely terrible at solving problems, but a Wizard of the same level is supposed to be able to do everything the Fighter can and have a thousand options on top of that, don't say they're both PC classes.
PoW solves this, too, by letting mundanes do superhuman things, and giving them options besides. Even outside initiating abilities, they have at least 4+Int skill points a level AND good skill lists, which means they can contribute much more, even if it's not magic.
This thread got weird fast.
Me, all I did to address disparity issues was bring weapon speed and casting time back, albeit in different forms. Helped a great deal with the type of game I was going for.
Am I the only one who noticed how quickly this thread devolved from trying to actually come up with reasonable solutions to another - "martials are weak - rebuild the system from the ground up!" thread?
Lol
(Of note - I actually agree that at higher levels [9ish + - though depends upon the martial] martials are weaker - but few are saying anything like a solution sans the rebuilding of the entire class system.)
You are right, of course. I think my solution fits best (yeah that's right, MY SOLUTION! :P)
Remove Rogue, add it via Gestalt rules to any non-caster class.
Grant the ability to full attack as a standard action at BAB +6
Grant fastheal 1 at level 12.
Change all saves to good as per Monk.
Done.
To be fair, Hercules and Cu are demigods, not mundane folk.So, flying around, raising the dead, teleporting across the country, causally hopping across the planes, and creating demi-planes - are these things mundane folk would do or are they things demigods would do?
Not sure what point you're making. Obviously magic isn't mundane.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not sure what point you're making. Obviously magic isn't mundane.To be fair, Hercules and Cu are demigods, not mundane folk.So, flying around, raising the dead, teleporting across the country, causally hopping across the planes, and creating demi-planes - are these things mundane folk would do or are they things demigods would do?
So why is a 17th level fighter 'mundane folk' while a 17th level wizard is a 'demigod'?
If we're gauging demigodhood on power, a 17th level character should be a demigod, irrespective of class. If we're gauging demigodhood on ancestry, then a 17th level character should still fall into a different class than "mundane folk," irrespective of class.
The idea that a wizard can teleport, but a fighter can't jump over a 12' wall is.... problematic.
That doesn't address the issue that if the classes were appropriately balanced, the Witch couldn't have done it in the first place.If that is the justification, that pretty much tells me that the player is a dick and there's going to be a toxic relationship at the table. Overlapping abilities can be used cooperatively or competitively. If you're going to compete with your fellow players, why are you at my table? Good cooperative relationships can make this issue not a problem.Because the witch CAN.
The ultimate question, though, is why is the witch stepping on the rogue's toes when he didn't need to do so?
Overlap sometimes happens, but if you're trying to convince me that a 2+INT class is going to completely overshadow a 8+INT class, I won't be able to hear you over the amount of laughter.
Not sure what point you're making. Obviously magic isn't mundane.To be fair, Hercules and Cu are demigods, not mundane folk.So, flying around, raising the dead, teleporting across the country, causally hopping across the planes, and creating demi-planes - are these things mundane folk would do or are they things demigods would do?So why is a 17th level fighter 'mundane folk' while a 17th level wizard is a 'demigod'?
Lack of player creativity.
That doesn't address the issue that if the classes were appropriately balanced, the Witch couldn't have done it in the first place.
That would just be excessive siloing. There should be ways for diverse classes to double for each other in some areas so that groups aren't screwed If they lack a particular class. A scouting familiar would be a fine option, but unnecessary if another PC is already working that niche.
Not sure what point you're making. Obviously magic isn't mundane.To be fair, Hercules and Cu are demigods, not mundane folk.So, flying around, raising the dead, teleporting across the country, causally hopping across the planes, and creating demi-planes - are these things mundane folk would do or are they things demigods would do?So why is a 17th level fighter 'mundane folk' while a 17th level wizard is a 'demigod'?
If we're gauging demigodhood on power, a 17th level character should be a demigod, irrespective of class. If we're gauging demigodhood on ancestry, then a 17th level character should still fall into a different class than "mundane folk," irrespective of class.
The idea that a wizard can teleport, but a fighter can't jump over a 12' wall is.... problematic.
You have to abandon "mundane" in a fantasy game, or you get left behind by definition.
Okay, looks like we're agreeing. My point was that you can't use demigods as examples and call them mundane, because they are not.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be fair, Hercules and Cu are demigods, not mundane folk.Stuff.The thing is that there is literally no mythology where there isn't a least a handful of mundane folk who have simply transcended being mundane shmucks. Hercules, Cu Chulainn, Beowolf, etc. are noted European/Mediterranean examples. I'm sure there are African, South American and other examples, too!
Historical demigods, in pathfinder terms, are about 12th to 15th level. There is nothing that any of them do that would require them to be any higher.
EDIT: There was that one time that Cu chopped the top off a mountain with his rainbow laser sword, but if we site that as something high level martials can do people start complaining about Weaboo Fightaan Magic.
Hercules redirected a RIVER into the Augean (sp?) stables. No fighter can do that. ;)
Not in one day anyway. Even a commoner could do it with a shovel and enough time.
Overlap sometimes happens, but if you're trying to convince me that a 2+INT class is going to completely overshadow a 8+INT class, I won't be able to hear you over the amount of laughter.That doesn't address the issue that if the classes were appropriately balanced, the Witch couldn't have done it in the first place.If that is the justification, that pretty much tells me that the player is a dick and there's going to be a toxic relationship at the table. Overlapping abilities can be used cooperatively or competitively. If you're going to compete with your fellow players, why are you at my table? Good cooperative relationships can make this issue not a problem.Because the witch CAN.
The ultimate question, though, is why is the witch stepping on the rogue's toes when he didn't need to do so?
well considering the witch uses int for a casting stat and they have a familiar, it's pretty easy to get 8 as a base line and then go higher... if your rogue is using point buy on int then congrats he gained more skills and almost nothing else.
well considering the witch uses int for a casting stat and they have a familiar, it's pretty easy to get 8 as a base line and then go higher... if your rogue is using point buy on int then congrats he gained more skills and almost nothing else.Overlap sometimes happens, but if you're trying to convince me that a 2+INT class is going to completely overshadow a 8+INT class, I won't be able to hear you over the amount of laughter.That doesn't address the issue that if the classes were appropriately balanced, the Witch couldn't have done it in the first place.If that is the justification, that pretty much tells me that the player is a dick and there's going to be a toxic relationship at the table. Overlapping abilities can be used cooperatively or competitively. If you're going to compete with your fellow players, why are you at my table? Good cooperative relationships can make this issue not a problem.Because the witch CAN.
The ultimate question, though, is why is the witch stepping on the rogue's toes when he didn't need to do so?
Fair point there, I keep forgetting that some weird folks out there don't play Scarred Witch Doctors.
You are right, of course. I think my solution fits best (yeah that's right, MY SOLUTION! :P)
Remove Rogue, add it via Gestalt rules to any non-caster class.
Grant the ability to full attack as a standard action at BAB +6
Grant fastheal 1 at level 12.
Change all saves to good as per Monk.
Done.
Mechanically, this may provide some balance, but the flavor fails. My fighter niche doesn't include forgery, picking pockets, sneak attacking, meticulously disabling magical rune traps, hiding in plain sight, or many of the other niche abilities of rogues.
Yeah, I know, there are classes out there that can do all those rogue things better than rogues actually do them. That may or may not be wrong (those other classes usually have archetypes that have the same niche/flavor of rogues, or at least close to it).
But that doesn't change the fact that the sneaky thiefy flavor niche of a rogue exists, and it mostly is not shared with the flavor niche of fighters and other face-punching martials. Eliminating that niche entirely and tacking the flavor onto martical classes that don't have that flavor feels wrong.
Or to put it another way: I like chocolate chips but they're too weak and insignificant, so I'm going to eliminate them from my kitchen but start sprinkling chocolate chips on my steaks. Yeah, chocolate-chip-steaks just aren't going to be on my menu any time soon.
Probably has a lot of balance issues, but I wonder if you could gestalt this problem? Each level you can take three classes following the gestalt rules if none of those classes have spellcasting or take two classes including partial casters or one class of full caster.
Gestalting non-casters will make you even better at killing things, but it won't make you better at solving other problems.
Decided to very casually roll up a fighter at 10th level using 4 feats from the product I discussed earlier allowing the fighter to get stamina for free and use stamina points for martial action points since they're virtually the same thing.
It's a vanilla fighter with automatic bonus progression and 20 point buy.
He has Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8. (Explaination for some decisions; I wasn't using traits so I decided to play up on the fighter's class skills so I put my mental prowess into INT in order to get the skill ranks and bonus into Craft Alchemy, in order to have a bunch of alchemical solutions on the fighter as part of his basic combat training. This is purposely not terribly optimized and shows my biased towards alchemical solutions to mundane problems.)
I'm seeing hm at 26 AC, 13 touch, 25 flat-footed. Fort 12, Ref 8, Will 8.
His feats other than third party are Dodge, Mobility, Fleet, Combat Reflexes, Combat Patrol, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, and Intimidating Prowess.
The third party feats are:
Flash Cut: He can spend a stamina point to make an AoO against anyone that enters a space he threatens.
Improved Martial Focus: +5 more stamina.
Meditations of Harmony: Can spend stamina to gain a bonus to saves if a successful attack is made.
Shadow of the Falcon: Can spend a stamina point to make a Combat Maneuver without provoking.
I can't wait to test this out because the way I see it he can threaten 20 feet away from him and move 35 feet during combat patrol. Anyone so much as sneezing in his general area of threat provokes by spending stamina and if the target is reasonably squishy I can perform whatever combat maneuver I want with the base stamina ability to boost the probability on that. All that with about 17 stamina per fight at my disposal.
but overall Is this an adequate boost?
Hercules redirected a RIVER into the Augean (sp?) stables. No fighter can do that. ;)
Not in one day anyway. Even a commoner could do it with a shovel and enough time.
Adamantine Shovel says no problem. Even easier with Sunder and an Adamantine Hammer. Just attack the ground like you're swinging a golf club.
Had this happen in a game once. Turns out that if you look at the "HP per inch" rules on dirt and then apply a mid level fighter or barbarian's damage to that, they can basically blast out a trench at a rate of a few feet per swing.
You are right, of course. I think my solution fits best (yeah that's right, MY SOLUTION! :P)
Remove Rogue, add it via Gestalt rules to any non-caster class.
Grant the ability to full attack as a standard action at BAB +6
Grant fastheal 1 at level 12.
Change all saves to good as per Monk.
Done.
Mechanically, this may provide some balance, but the flavor fails. My fighter niche doesn't include forgery, picking pockets, sneak attacking, meticulously disabling magical rune traps, hiding in plain sight, or many of the other niche abilities of rogues.
Yeah, I know, there are classes out there that can do all those rogue things better than rogues actually do them. That may or may not be wrong (those other classes usually have archetypes that have the same niche/flavor of rogues, or at least close to it).
But that doesn't change the fact that the sneaky thiefy flavor niche of a rogue exists, and it mostly is not shared with the flavor niche of fighters and other face-punching martials. Eliminating that niche entirely and tacking the flavor onto martical classes that don't have that flavor feels wrong.
Or to put it another way: I like chocolate chips but they're too weak and insignificant, so I'm going to eliminate them from my kitchen but start sprinkling chocolate chips on my steaks. Yeah, chocolate-chip-steaks just aren't going to be on my menu any time soon.
Or you could see it as making the Rogue have a better BAB, better saves and extra feats...
You customize the class the way you want to make it. Just cause it CAN wear fullplate doesn't mean it WILL wear fullplate.
I didn't say it was perfect, just a solution. ;P
Hercules redirected a RIVER into the Augean (sp?) stables. No fighter can do that. ;)
Not in one day anyway. Even a commoner could do it with a shovel and enough time.
Adamantine Shovel says no problem. Even easier with Sunder and an Adamantine Hammer. Just attack the ground like you're swinging a golf club.
Had this happen in a game once. Turns out that if you look at the "HP per inch" rules on dirt and then apply a mid level fighter or barbarian's damage to that, they can basically blast out a trench at a rate of a few feet per swing.
Good lord, someone did the math... I shouldn't be surprised I guess.
I'm not saying Pathfinder is broken. Far from it. I like the group dynamic and think a good GM can make wonderful challenges for a FULL PARTY even though there is power and/or utility "tier" disparity between the individuals of that party.
But, if we wanted to rig the system to smooth out that disparity, what changes would we make?
Can we do it without turning every martial class into into weird magus/jedi/ninja/wizards?
Remove Teleport spells and the caster will need the martials to keep them alive when they run out of magic.
Without magic to take him home the caster is just a whimp in a fancy outfit.
Uuuugh. I came here to finally get some productive advice to drown out all the stupid arguing on the other thread.
What did I get? More stupid arguing. I could dig through here to find the on-topic posts, but I don't really have the energy.
Come on, people. You already have a thread for this. Go over there and leave this one in peace. If you don't think martials need fixing, go over there and make your case.
Uuuugh. I came here to finally get some productive advice to drown out all the stupid arguing on the other thread.
What did I get? More stupid arguing. I could dig through here to find the on-topic posts, but I don't really have the energy.
Come on, people. You already have a thread for this. Go over there and leave this one in peace. If you don't think martials need fixing, go over there and make your case.
Hey, I posted a build using a few third party feats to make a fighter into a mobile disruptor.
Neither can a wizard, for that matter. A high level commander isn't going to abandon a cause he's fighting for just because he may treat one person on the other side as his buddy.(and he may very well be protected from such simple mind magic, the same way PC's are. Assuming he has the slightest possibility of being open to the idea, that's where diplomacy and what's that thing called again? ... Ah yes, roleplaying come into play.
fighters can murder just about anything, but can they use charm person on the enemy commander and avoid a conflict altogether?
Dominate Person is a thing you know..n
To be fair, Hercules and Cu are demigods, not mundane folk.So, flying around, raising the dead, teleporting across the country, causally hopping across the planes, and creating demi-planes - are these things mundane folk would do or are they things demigods would do?
This argument bugs me... a lot of martials cant do nixe things because the cool stuff that western mythological heroes do is locked behind the whole "divinity" thig