So I recently discovered the Magic Altars from Inner Sea Gods this evening from the Archives of Nethys (I don't know how I missed those earlier, I've owned the actual book for like two years at least...) and frankly, I think it's a really cool concept, and one my Oracle of Life, a devotee of Sarenrae in my Kingmaker game, will enjoy.
However, something got me thinking: how neat would it be to have said Altar of Sarenrae, instead of hiding in a church, be mounted on the back of a wagon, similar to the True Cross the crusaders had a the Battle of Hattin in 1187 CE, or the Caroccio Standards of Venice and Milan?
However, this little bit came up from Inner Sea Gods:
"An altar is always fixed in place; it cannot be moved without losing its magical abilities. Most altars are secured to the floor, and a successful DC 25 Strength check is required to uproot or move them (or a higher DC, depending on their size and weight)."
I know this may be munchkin-ing quite a lot, but does the altar count as moving if it's secured to a wagon?
Could you put one on a ship?
That's also a good point. I guess the question is how big of a something does the altar need to be bolted to before it counts as stationary, even if the object it's bolted to isn't?
I think you know the answer before asking.
I'll agree the wagon is a stretch, but Splendor raises a good point. Is an altar on a ship considered stationary?
Given the purpose of the altars is to provide a benefit to a community in return for their worship, mobility is the number one thing that shouldn't be allowed. The benefits of an altar cease the moment you leave the community, so it's clear they're not intended to be mobile.
Mounting on ship, a wagon, a gryphon, or a magic carpet is circumventing the roleplay purpose behind these things.
I would be on the fence about having it on a ship...
Anything smaller, absolutely not, but a ship... maybe.
For a deity like Besmara (deals with the sea, and pirates)-probably yes.
I would allow it on a sailing ship or larger vessel. After all, it is secured to the floor and isn't moving from that spot.
By the rules, no, no mounting it on a ship or wagon. There has to be something that gives a fixed holy location a bonus.
You could house rule in portable altars that have lesser effects, or are relic-class holy items that provide the benefits even while moving (think Ark of the Covenant-class mythic stuff).
But no, the basic altars do not move, period. Arguing a ship or wagon is semantics, unless you can move the equivalent of an entire temple (such as a moving island or cloud island or flying mountain or such), it doesn't work.
==Aelryinth
I know this may be munchkin-ing quite a lot, but does the altar count as moving if it's secured to a wagon?
not in relation to what it is secured to.
space is relative.
How about in a castle on the back of a Zaratan?
Floating citadel?
Colossal Animated Object made out of a cathedral?
How big does something need to be before it is considered "big enough to consecrate as a permanent holy site?"
Big enough to be a holy site, and not be considered carried by a vehicle.
==Aelryinth
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Except for the formal worship sites she has, you'd be correct. One of which is a ship.
And yes, FLite I know she doesn't. Which is why you can make one up for the sake of story. You can make up anything for the sake of story, and adventure paths are resplendent with rules being bent to have something nifty.
Yup. I was agreeing with that. I was just also saying the nifty should be reflected in the price :)
Not on a boat. Not on a goat. Not on a train. Not on a (mobile) demiplane.Not in a wagon, not on a dragon, not even a tiny one on your flagon.
:D Thank you for that. I think you two win the Excellence in Intertubes award...
You know planets are mobile. They actually move very fast.
You know planets are mobile. They actually move very fast.
lol. Exactly. Where does one draw the line? That is the question!
IT IS ALL RELATIVE!
That depends. Is golarion a sun centric system? It is a fictional fantasy world. It could very well be a fixed immobile planet with a sun a mere one mile across that travels across the sky.
yes there are even known other planets in the system.
though a great many wizards live on the sun...
Its a common practice in Japan and throughout Europe that altars are diplayed and put on parade around a community during holidays. Of course this doesn't mean that the altar is always mounted on a wagon and moved about the country - that is kind of munchkin idea, game-wise. I'm not saying the mechanics allow for that, but just saying, that many cultures do indeed lug around altars that are temporarily mounted on wagons and paraded around town - it does happen.
He meant holy site.
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I was really correcting him, not you... ;)
There is nothing preventing you from doing that. Only it won't be magical anymore.
Real world analogies mean nothing in a game were magic is real.
Except that Japan was a country that did believe magic existed, at least at the time these cultural traits were founded. As included in my published Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG), the imperial governement of Japan had a Ministry of Onmyodo, which was essentially the academy of magic. While we could agree that their magic probably wasn't real, they believed it was. So why should a practice like moving altars around on wagons for parades, in a society that believed it was indeed magic - not be considered a factor since it was reality and not fantasy.
I think real world analogies should be always considered (I always consider them in my games), because the Japanese (at least) clearly believed it did have a positive magical purpose, and was why they did it...
There are many other possible ways of balancing such a rule, than the choice that was made by Paizo.
Fantasy doesn't exist in a vaccuum, most fantasy is based on some historical reality, even if its folklore.
While certainly 3PP, clearly I've created published rules before that defied what Paizo may have ruled previously. There is never really only one choice in Pathfinder.
24 hours
I would make allowances in certain circumstances for altars:
Besmara altar on a large ship? Sure. Besmara altar on a folding boat? Big bag of NOPE on that.
I wouldn't blindly hand-wave and say altars are now portable. The bonuses can be pretty good, and having a party just carry something around like that is potentially unbalancing.
The situations where an altar could move would be rare, I would think, and only allowed if it made sense, like the example with Besmara.
I would be on the fence about having it on a ship...
Anything smaller, absolutely not, but a ship... maybe.
For a deity like Besmara (deals with the sea, and pirates)-probably yes.
Not even for Besmara. A Besmaran altar would be located in a pirate's hangout, or a pirate town, but not on a ship, because again... it's not a fixed location, but a vehicle.
Also, altars and even temples simply aren't a priority for Besmaran worship, which is lip service most of the time and the most formal it generally gets is some grog or (rarely) a tithe of treasure tossed over the side.
Seamen in general, pirates in particualr, simply aren't that pious a bunch, not even for her.
*shrugs* I'm just saying what I would allow as a GM, not trying to say it should be allowed by the rules.
I'm currently playing a character that worships, and gains spells, from Besmara, so at least SOME people are pious worshippers :P
Declaring a magical altar is intended to benefit a community and then restricting the altar in such a manner that certain types of communities [a community entirely housed on a large ship, or perhaps a community of travelers (nomadic shepherds for example, or perhaps something more Gypsie style) for examples] is rather silly.
That aside... I can't seem to find the duration of these Altar-worship boons, am I missing it somewhere?
From Inner Sea Gods:
"A worshiper of an altar’s deity may stand, sit, kneel, or lie prostrate within 10 feet of the altar and speak a prayer to gain a temporary blessing from the altar (treat this as speaking a command word to activate a magic item). The effect of this blessing is described in the individual altar entries. Unless otherwise specified, this blessing ends after 24 hours (or earlier, if dispelled or ended by the actions of the worshiper). The altar can provide its blessing only once per creature per day."
(Emphasis Mine).