Vigilante as a Mystic Theurge / Shadow Dancer?


Ultimate Intrigue Playtest General Discussion


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I know there are a lot of problems with Vigilante. One of the biggest is the issue of... well.. not exactly having a Niche. The Avenger is outdone by the Slayer. The Stalker is competing with the Unchained Rogue. The Zealot has to try and justify itself to an Inquisitor. Then I thought of something from reading many posts..

How would this idea work:

Combine the Avenger and Stalker and make them more like a Shadow Dancer full class. Do with it like Paizo has done with the Eldritch Knight and such. Honestly there is no reason they really should not be combined. By combining them, you power them up (which they need) and can give them a niche (which they need) and can reduce the need of Prestige Classes (which I have noticed Paizo seems to love to do).

As for the Vigicasters, do the same. Combine the two and make a Base class Mystic Theurge. What you can do then is combine the to trainings into one talent per level on both trees(so instead of Arcane Training II and Divine training II you would have SPELL TRAINING II), which would justify the need to burn talents to gain spells, and create a very new and unique class that would have its own niche and create a REASON to play one over a Magus or Bard or Inquisitor or Warpriest.

What do you guys think? Do you think this is a good idea or potentially way to powerful?


Oh and shout out to Gisher who inspired the idea for this. I just figured I would make a whole thread dedicated to this idea so it does not get lost in other cross conversations since this seems like the best idea I have seen to date that would fix the Vigilante in an elegant manner and create a unique Schtick for the vigilante!


Oh and to clarify, the Vigilante would still keep both different spells known and spells per day from Divine and Arcane. This would justify the decrease spells per day on each side (vs other 6 level casters) and also justify the need to take talents to unlock further spells.


Shameless self bump :p

Liberty's Edge

I like the idea of making specialties the 20 level versions of prestige classes, give the vigilante some niche other than the character with a secret identity one. And I love the idea of stalker being the 20 level shadowdancer. Don't really know how I feel about a 20 level mystic theurge though. Doesn't really seem to fit a vigilante theme.

It's not really hard to imagine other specialties along the same lines, like the Avenger being a 20 level battle herald, along the lines of a people champion.

The warlock could easily be the 20 level arcane trickster. But I'm drawing a blank on what's a good fit for the Zealot. Rage prophet doesn't really fit, and would probably end up similar to either the inquisitor or the warpriest, which I guess it mostly is right now.

And of course the social persona should be the base class version of the master spy, because there really needs to be a better reason to actually use your social persona.

Of course, I also think it's a little late to redesign the class this much, but who know, you could probably do a lot with tweaking the talents.


TBH, I thought at first that I could select multiple specializations, because combining sounds like a great idea... expect that you're not allowed to.


Well I think the Mystic Theurge would be interesting since there is no hybrid casting class AT ALL in PF and with the Piss Poor Spells per day, combining the two would make them up to par with the other 6-level casters. Maybe change the arcane half to have the Magus spell list over the Wizard list.


One reason I keep thinking they should keep "open" specializations.
you chose one as a primary, which gives you the main focus. Then anyone can take any talent they qualify for. Or allow you to pick up a second specializations at like 10 maybe.

That would allow you to build all the previous discussed ideas.

Avenger base would give you pseudo full bab

stalker would give the same thing it currently gives (and ther would be a talent to buy you 1 hidden strike die, or perhaps 2 via scaling or something)

Warlock would get fuller (current 6th level spells per day) for arcane spells

Zealot gets the same, but for divine.

But anyone could take the arcane training or divine training. but only get spells listed on the current talents. (unless you were a warlock/zealot who'd get more)
Well the zealot and warlock thing may need tweaking. Since that would give them a fairly large amount of low level spells perday if they went purely for spells using all their talents. Though thats basically waht a theurge is no? so I guess it could be fine.

Pretty much could make a ton of ideas with that.

Though the spell choices available might be weird. lvs 1-6 of arcane and divine won't be that useful in high levels.. Most 6th level casters get away with it by virtue of custom spell lists.


I still say that the Social Persona should functionally be almost exactly the Master Spy as a full-on Base Class.

The Alternate Persona would be thematically perfect, at that, considering what the Master Spy does as-is.

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The Warlock/Zealot Specializations combining to make the Mystic Theurge as lv20 Base Class would be amaze-balls. I think it should be Charisma-based and be a Spontaneous Caster.

Even keeping them separate while both thematically still being the Mystic Theurge would be cool - one is a Spontaneous Arcane Caster with Domains who casts using Wisdom, and the other is a Divine Caster with a Bloodline who casts from Charisma.

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The Stalker replacing it's "I'm a Not-Rogue" shtick with a Specialization that turns it into the Shadowdancer as a lv20 Base Class would also be awesome, and give it a lot more of an identity than it currently has;

Folding the Avenger into it might actually make it into Batman and/or Daredevil even more as a result, due to its emphasis on concealment and darkness, but also having a full BAB and extra Feats.

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Replacing Avenger with a Specialization that turns the Stalwart Defender into a lv20 Base Class would fulfill the roles of "secret Bodyguard" and "Stone Wall" Superheroes.

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I still hold strong onto the idea that there should also be a Spontaneous Alchemist. It fits with the entire "mundane badass" shtick that a book like Ultimate Intrigue should probably aim for.

There's also never BEEN a Spontaneous Alchemist before, so that'd make it stand out as something crazy-awesome and entirely new.

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I'd love to see a Rage-Prophet-turned-Base-Class done, but that's better left as an entirely different class altogether. Still wanna see it, just... not here.


I'd rather warlock and zealot aren't merged, so that it's easier for alchemical and psychic vigilante specializations to be added.


PIXIE DUST wrote:
Well I think the Mystic Theurge would be interesting since there is no hybrid casting class AT ALL in PF and with the Piss Poor Spells per day, combining the two would make them up to par with the other 6-level casters. Maybe change the arcane half to have the Magus spell list over the Wizard list.

Imagine they're both Spontaneous Casters

Using the Bard's Spells Per Day progression, I'd imagine the Spells Known would look like this:

Lv__0___1___2___3___4___5___6
01 2+2 1+1
02 3+2 2+1
03 3+3 2+2
04 3+3 2+2 1+1
05 3+3 2+2 2+1
06 3+3 2+2 2+2
07 3+3 3+2 2+2 1+1
08 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+1
09 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+2
10 3+3 3+2 3+2 2+2 1+1
11 3+3 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+1
12 3+3 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+2
13 3+3 3+3 3+2 3+2 2+2 1+1
14 3+3 3+3 3+2 3+2 2+2 2+1
15 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+2
16 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+2 3+2 2+2 1+1
17 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+1
18 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+2
19 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+2 3+2 2+2
20 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+2 3+2

At level 1, you know 2 Cantrips and 2 Orisons; you also know 1 Arcane and 1 Divine spell.

At level 2, you can learn 1 Divine spell or 1 Arcane spell

At level 3, you learn either 1 Divine or Arcane spell - whichever you didn't choose at lv2.

You always have to keep and equal number of spells of each type whenever possible. When you replace an old Spell Known, you have to replace it with a Spell of the same Type (Arcane for Arcane, Divine for Divine).

Spells per Day doesn't matter - you cast both with Charisma, and you use the same Spell Slots for either; you can thus casts all Divine, all Arcane, or any mix of the two as you please.


That actually is a good idea! I like it! A Stalwart Defender type of full class would be awesome! Especially since the Avenger already has some cool shield stuff talents already.

Oh and the spontanious Alchemist, while cool sounding, I'm not sure how it would work... Alchemists are one of the few classes I think MAKE SENSE being prepared types... seeing as they have to prepare potions and all. But having an Alchemical poisoner would be awesome though. Maybe allowing it to do cool stuff with bombs and poisons together, like dropping a gas grenade with a slight of hand check that would poison everyone in the vicinity slowly so that they would get poisoned without knowing it (allow a cool subtle poison to seep into the victims viens) of the ability to get things liek Adder's Strike for free.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:
Well I think the Mystic Theurge would be interesting since there is no hybrid casting class AT ALL in PF and with the Piss Poor Spells per day, combining the two would make them up to par with the other 6-level casters. Maybe change the arcane half to have the Magus spell list over the Wizard list.

Imagine they're both Spontaneous Casters

Using the Bard's Spells Per Day progression, I'd imagine the Spells Known would look like this:

Lv__0___1___2___3___4___5___6
01 2+2 1+1
02 3+2 2+1
03 3+3 2+2
04 3+3 2+2 1+1
05 3+3 2+2 2+1
06 3+3 2+2 2+2
07 3+3 3+2 2+2 1+1
08 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+1
09 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+2
10 3+3 3+2 3+2 2+2 1+1
11 3+3 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+1
12 3+3 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+2
13 3+3 3+3 3+2 3+2 2+2 1+1
14 3+3 3+3 3+2 3+2 2+2 2+1
15 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+2
16 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+2 3+2 2+2 1+1
17 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+1
18 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+2 2+2 2+2
19 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+2 3+2 2+2
20 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+3 3+2 3+2

At level 1, you know 2 Cantrips and 2 Orisons; you also know 1 Arcane and 1 Divine spell.

At level 2, you can learn 1 Divine spell or 1 Arcane spell

At level 3, you learn either 1 Divine or Arcane spell - whichever you didn't choose at lv2.

You always have to keep and equal number of spells of each type whenever possible. When you replace an old Spell Known, you have to replace it with a Spell of the same Type (Arcane for Arcane, Divine for Divine).

Spells per Day doesn't matter - you cast both with Charisma, and you use the same Spell Slots for either; you can thus casts all Divine, all Arcane, or any mix of the two as you please.

That sounds awesome! Keeps it simple, keeps it clean, and allows for some very interesting and cool flavor. Sure it may not be as overtly powerful as a magus or something but I think it works! I would suggest it using the Magus Spell list for Arcane and the Inquisitor Spell list for Divine (since those classes are already built for 6-level casters in mind and not meant for classes built purely to be casters... summoner I am looking at you)


PIXIE DUST wrote:
That sounds awesome! Keeps it simple, keeps it clean, and allows for some very interesting and cool flavor. Sure it may not be as overtly powerful as a magus or something but I think it works! I would suggest it using the Magus Spell list for Arcane and the Inquisitor Spell list for Divine (since those classes are already built for 6-level casters in mind and not meant for classes...

As it stands, in most games a purely-balanced Mystic Theurge is looking at 8th level spells for both classes each, with a Caster Level of 15 for each at lv20.

A more-focused Theurge would be a Sorcerer/Oracle, so that you're SAD and focusing purely on Charisma; however, even those would only be 7th Level spells at most at lv20 (you'd actually GAIN them at lv19, but whatever.

A character that gets both Divine AND Arcane spells from lv1 and can cast them freely with just a single stat? Oh, and a significantly bulkier body and Base Attack Bonus that's worth mentioning as a result?

That sounds like a damn fair trade-off for only getting 6th-level spell progression, honestly.


True, but I kind of like the Magus/Inquisitor Spell lists or Bard/Inquisitor since:

1) its a bit more balanced for people since they both lack the crazy, off the wall utility spells that people tend to complain about.

and

2) They are geared toward more a combatives class. The Inquisitor/Magus would have a lot of spells that is more geared toward disabling and defeating an opponent, which is kinda more flavorful for a Warlock type. The Inquisitor/Bard spell list would gain more in the Charms and Illusions though that would play much more friendly with the Social Guise since they could be used to supplement the whole "face" thing really well (of which the bard has shown time and again)

But of course what they would be gaining in exchange for the weaker spell lists would be:

The Bolt Ability (that ability is pretty much a hit so far. Sure some minor tweaks but all in all a success by paizo)

he Tattoo Storage ability (that talent is just flavorful and awesome)

The counter ability (again, flavorful and awesome)

Domains

Maybe a toned down version of Smite?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I say combine avenger and stalker, let warlocks choose Arcane Training AND/OR Divine Training, add an alchemist focusing on poisons and mutagens (banewright???), psychic version (spectral stalker???), and the zealot will be a magic-using (but not necessarily spellcasting) tank/stalwart defender/bodyguard-type.


You could just drop the idea of specializations entirely and just have talents open to be taken by any Vigilante. Then you could spec your Vigilante to be a Shadowdancer, Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, or whatever other hybrid you want.


Arachnofiend wrote:
You could just drop the idea of specializations entirely and just have talents open to be taken by any Vigilante. Then you could spec your Vigilante to be a Shadowdancer, Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, or whatever other hybrid you want.

Possibly but the problem then arises that they will need to power down the abilities a lot since having access to powerful Martial abilities AND powerful magic abilities can create some potential for abuse. Additionally, we have seen from the Move with the Summoner that Paizo will probably not go for an A la carte method again for a while. The "specializations" can almost be thought of like the base forms for the unchained Summoner. So ideally it may sound cool, I feel like it could create potentials for abuse (like getting Full BAB+Stalker ability to hit TOuch AC for 1 attack + Warlock having a touch attack ability that can be dual wielded+ bonus feats from Avenger can create a nasty martial that will never miss... pretty the gunslinger in melee)


I do think that limiting the selection a bit would be best for the class. Honestly, it should be two classes, one called Avenger and one called Warlock, but having Vigilante that can be either works. Having two specializations is good to keep the class from just being a smorgasbord of options, and makes it easier to balance the talents against themselves. Have some universal ones that are for the social side, and maybe let either side break a little into the other (grab cantrips as Avenger, get some stealth options as Warlock) but leave a mystic theurge and a shadowdancer as two halves of a class.

I've been thinking the same thing, ever since I read the playtest. This is a great opportunity for Vigilante to find a niche and become a base class for two interesting but hard to pull off from the get-go prestige classes. If anything, hell, I'll just houserule it.


So keeping with the Shadow Dancer/Mystic Theurge seems awesome. First I wanna talk about the Shadow Dancer. The regular prestige class is kinda meh. The requirements are tough and honestly the class as a whole doesn' mesh well with any base class (lack of sneak attack hurts stealth martials and Lack of any spell progession hurts the caster types). Making it full base class though lets them do some cool stuff. Talents I was thinking that would be awesome to have/keep around would be:

Assault Training (Ex):
Starting at 1st level, the avenger
vigilante treats his vigilante level as his base attack bonus
instead of the bonuses listed on Table 1–1. He adds this
value to any other base attack bonus gained from other
classes or racial Hit Dice as normal.

This is pretty awesome. I mean, this is all and all solid

Armor Silence (Ex)and Armor Skin (Ex):
The avenger vigilante doesn’t apply
the armor check penalty for light and medium armor on
Stealth skill checks. The penalty applies to other skill
checks as normal.

The avenger vigilante’s armor is like a
second skin. He doesn’t apply the armor check penalty for
light and medium armor on Acrobatics and Escape Artist
skill checks. The avenger vigilante must possess the armor
silence vigilante talent before choosing this talent.

Combine these two abilities into one. This would be awesome make is stealth focus even stronger

Close the Gap (Ex):
Each round, at the start of his turn, the
avenger vigilante can designate one foe within 20 feet that
isn’t adjacent to him. When he moves, he doesn’t provoke
attacks of opportunity from that foe as long as he ends his
move adjacent to that foe. If he charges that foe, he does
not take the –2 penalty to his AC on any attacks made by
the designated foe.

This is just an awesome ability. This combined with sneak attack is pretty cool since it allows you to constantly move around to get into flanking position without risking AoO.

Shadow Jump (Su):
The warlock vigilante gains the shadow
jump ability with an effective shadowdancer level equal to
his vigilante level – 6. If he has levels in shadowdancer,
those levels stack with his vigilante levels to determine the
total distance per day he can shadow jump (to a maximum
of 320 feet per day). A warlock vigilante must be at least
10th level to select this talent.

Now can SOMEONE tell me why the heck the WARLOCK has this ability??? I mean, really? Well as a shadow dancer full class, this ability would be awesome to see on the Avenger/Stalker focus. Maybe reduce the level penalty to -4 and require level 5 to get it or something

Living Shadow (Sp:
Once per day, the warlock vigilante
can become a living shadow as though he were using
shadow body (Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures 186). This
effect lasts for 1 round per vigilante level, and the warlock
vigilante can’t cast spells while in this form. At 14th level,
the warlock vigilante can remain as a living shadow for
1 minute per vigilante level instead, and can cast spells
while he’s a living shadow. A warlock vigilante must be at
least 6th level to select this talent.

This is just thematically flavorful for the Shadow Dancer type and again... WHY THE HECK IS THE WARLOCK GETTING THIS... This should have been a stalker ability in the first place...

Mad Rush (Ex):
Whenever the avenger vigilante charges,
he can make a full attack. Whenever he uses this ability, he
takes a –4 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn
(in addition to the AC penalty for charging). An avenger
vigilante must be at least 12th level to select this talent.

Because there is no reason for this to not be on every martial. If you want to get real cool, maybe combine it with Shadow Jump? Its a more thematic version of the Magus Bladed Dash and gives the Shadow Dancer some cool power.

Unexpected Strike (Ex):
The avenger vigilante gains Quick
Draw as a bonus feat. At 8th level, he can draw hidden
weapons as a swift action (instead of a move action).

This would be cool. In a suprise round to use Unexpected Strike with the Shadow Jump together

Vital Punishment (Ex)and Leave an Opening* (Ex):
The avenger vigilante gains Vital
Strike as a bonus feat. Once per round, before he makes
an attack of opportunity, he can declare it to be a vital
punishment. If the attack hits, the avenger vigilante can
apply Vital Strike. The avenger can apply Improved Vital
Strike or Greater Vital Strike as his vital punishment
instead if he later gains those feats. The avenger vigilante
must be at least 6th level before taking this talent.

The stalker vigilante’s hidden
strike leaves an unbalancing opening in a foe’s defenses,
setting himself up to attack again. At the beginning of the
foe’s next turn, if the stalker vigilante threatens the foe,
the foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the stalker
vigilante. Multiple attacks against the same foe do not
create multiple attacks of opportunity in the same round
(but attacks against several foes can cause each to provoke
one attack of opportunity).

Combining these two would be freaking awesome and powerful. While it would potentially be a rediculously powerful ability, the Vigilante kinda needs one :P and if the Vigilante had d4 sneak it shouldn't be too bad.

Hidden Strike (Ex):
Starting at 1st level, the stalker vigilante
gains the ability to deal 1d6 extra precision damage on
melee attacks (or ranged attacks from within 30 feet) against
foes who are unaware of his presence (or who consider him
an ally). This extra damage increases by 1d6 at 3rd level
and every 2 vigilante levels thereafter. A stalker vigilante
can also deal hidden strike damage to a target that he is
f lanking or that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, but in
these cases, the damage dice are reduced to d4s. A stalker
vigilante can deal hidden strike damage against targets
with concealment (but not total concealment).

This is a must... pretty much

Foe Collision* (Ex):
The stalker vigilante shoves one of his
foes into another. When the stalker vigilante deals hidden
strike damage with a melee attack, he can also deal an
amount of nonlethal damage equal to the extra damage
from hidden strike to an opponent adjacent to the first
(even if the second opponent is out of his reach). Unlike
normal, this vigilante talent applies to any successful
hidden strike.

This is pretty cool. Combine it maybe with bleed on the original target could be pretty cool. Comboing this with targetting ability makes for a truly mobile fighter (which this game lacks...)

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex):
The stalker vigilante can vanish
right before his foes’ eyes, even when being observed. As
long as he is within 10 feet of dim light (his own shadow
doesn’t count), he can hide without anything to actually
hide behind. A stalker vigilante must be at least 8th level
to choose this talent.

This a shadow dancer... a must... just reduce the level

Perfect Vulnerability (Ex):
As a standard action, the
stalker vigilante can attack his foe where that foe is
weakest. This attack targets the foe’s touch AC, and the
foe is denied her Dexterity bonus against the attack. Once
a foe has been the target of perfect vulnerability, she can’t
be the target of the same vigilante’s perfect vulnerability
for 24 hours. A stalker vigilante must be at least 8th level
to choose this talent.

This is just pretty cool. If the Stalker lacks full BAB then this is a must

Surprise Strike (Ex):
The stalker vigilante gains a greater
advantage when his foe is unable to defend herself.
Whenever he makes an attack against a foe that is denied
her Dexterity bonus to AC, he gains a +1 bonus on his
attack roll. This bonus increases to +2 at 8th level and to
+3 at 16th level.

this i an awesome ability

Up Close and Personal (Ex):
When the stalker vigilante
attempts an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent’s
space during a move action, he can make a single melee
attack against that opponent as a swift action. This attack
applies the stalker vigilante’s hidden strike damage as if the
foe was unaware of the stalker vigilante. A stalker vigilante
must be at least 4th level to choose this talent.

I would add that you get Dodge and Mobility for free...

I think keeping these abilities but as modified above would allow for the Vigishadow to be the ultimate ACTUAL mobile combatant which is AWESOME.


I'm messing around with a set of 6 Specializations.

Avenger is a more-generalized Martial. It treats its Vigilante level as its BAB, gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Feat, "Heavy Hitter" which ups the damage of Unarmed Strikes to 1d6 and further Talents taken at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels can up this by 1 Die type (so it mimics the Monk's progression if they so desire). They can take Ranger Combat Styles as a Talent, and it can also gain muted versions of Challenge, Rage, Smite, and a few other similar abilities.

It also gains an ability called Mobile Offense, which allows you to take a 5ft Step as a Free Action after every Attack you make, up to your Base Speed.

Defender pretty much the Stalwart Defender; it gains Toughness and Bodyguard as Bonus Feats, and gains DR/- at every odd level. It also gains Mobile Defense, which allows it to make a 5ft step every time it is the target of an Attack and gain a +1 Dodge Bonus against that Attack as a result, up to its total Base Speed for the turn. I'm working on the Talents

Stalker is left basically as-is, but with a much-greater focus on Shadows and darkness. Hidden Strike is straight-up replaced with Sneak Attack that always deals d4s of damage; it gains Low-Light and Darkvision automatically, however, meaning that "Total Concealment" is, then, actually very rare for the Stalker, meaning that the lower dice-damage is offset by the increased accuracy and versatility for when it can be used.

Many of the Talents are pieces of the Shadowdancer Prestige Class, and play up those aspects ever greater by giving you things like Minor and Major Shadow Magic (which require Minor & Major Magic Rogue Talents, and are designed to let you cast spells like Darkness and Deeper Darkness as Spell-Like Abilities).

Empath is a Wisdom-based Spontaneous Psychic. Probably focused things like reading minds, tracking and gaining info via psychometry, etc.

Sage is a Charisma-based Spontaneous Divine AND Arcane caster. No idea what the abilities or the talents will be, but probably some mix & mash of arcane and divine, like mutating Ray spells to heal an amount of equal to 1/2 what they normally would cause as Damage, and other wonky effects.

Prodigy is an Intelligence-based Spontaneous Alchemist. It gains Catch-Off Guard, and the entire focus is kind of an anti-Alchemist: instead of crafting Poisons and Bombs on the fly, instead it crafts Alchemical Items, normal Items, and Weapons on-the-fly, like MacGuyver and other geniuses like Lex Luthor and Walter White.

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So far, The Stalker is the most-complete one.

Here's what I've got so far:

STALKER

Lv- - - - - - - - - - - Abilities - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
01 Stalker’s Vision 30ft, Shadow Synthesis, Sneak Attack +1d4
02 Stalker Talent
03 Evasion, Sneak Attack +2d4
04 Stalker Talent
05 Uncanny Dodge, Stalker’s Vision 60ft, Sneak Attack +3d4
06 Stalker Talent
07 Shadow Blend, Sneak Attack +4d4
08 Stalker Talent
09 Stalker’s Vision 90ft, Sneak Attack +5d4
10 Stalker Talent
11 Improved Evasion, Sneak Attack +6d4
12 Stalker Talent
13 Shadow Merge, Stalker’s Vision 120ft, Sneak Attack +7d4
14 Stalker Talent
15 Sneak Attack +8d4
16 Stalker Talent
17 Stalker’s Vision 150ft, Sneak Attack +9d4
18 Stalker Talent
19 Shadow Fuse, Sneak Attack +10d4
20 Master of Darkness, Stalker Talent

Sneak Attack (Ex): This is identical to the Rogue ability of the same name, except that the Stalker deals this extra damage in the form of d4 Damage Dice. This ability stacks with all other classes that grant Sneak Attack dice.

Evasion (Ex): At third level, the Stalker gains Evasion.

Stalker’s Vision (Ex): At first level, the Stalker gains Low-Light Vision out to 30ft. At 5th level, this increases to 60ft, and she also gains Darkvision out to the same distance. At 9th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the distance of these forms of vision increases by 30ft, to a maximum of 150ft at 17th level.

Shadow Synthesis (Ex): The Stalker adds a bonus equal to ½ her Stalker Class Levels on Stealth checks made to Hide and Move Silently in areas of at least Dim Light. In areas of Magical Darkness, she instead adds a bonus equal to her Class Level to checks made to Move Silently.

Shadow Blend (Ex): Beginning at 7th level, When in any area of at least Dim Light, the Stalker receives Total Concealment (50% miss change). Artificial illumination, even a light of a Continual Flame spell, does not negate this ability. A Daylight spell does, however the Stalker may resume this ability as a Free Action.

Shadow Merge (Ex): When in an area of at least Darkness, the Stalker receives greater than Total Concealment (75% miss chance). Artificial illumination, even a light of a Continual Flame spell, does not negate this ability. A Daylight spell merely reduces the miss chance to Total Concealment (50% miss chance).

Shadow Fuse (Ex): When in an area of Supernatural Darkness, Attack Rolls made against the Stalker by any creatures that do not possess True Seeing or a similar effect automatically fail (100% Miss Chance; this is not Total Cover). Creatures with True Seeing treat the Stalker as though they had Total Concealment, suffering a 50% miss chance on Attack Rolls made against the Stalker while she is in an area of Magical Darkness. Artificial Illumination, even a Continuous Flame spell, does not negate this ability. A Daylight spell reduces the miss chances 25% (75% to those without True Seeing, 25% to those with True Seeing).

Master of Darkness (Ex): When in any area of at least Dim Light, the Stalker gains DR5/-, increases the Critical Hit range of their weapons by 1 each (for example, from 17-20 to 16-20), and if the Damage Multiplier of that weapon is x2, the Stalker may add extra damage dice to any successful Critical Hit scored by that weapon equal to (and of the same type as) 1/2 her Sneak Attack, even if the target of that Attack would otherwise not be a legal target for a Sneak Attack; if it is x3, she may add an amount and type of damage dice to the roll equal to her Sneak Attack, and if it is x4, she may add an amount and type equal to 1 and a half times her Sneak Attack dice.

Stalker Talents:

Blindsense (Su): The Stalker gains the Blindsense special ability. The Stalker must be at least 10th level in order to take this Talent.

Blindsight (Su): The Stalker gains the Blindsight special ability. The Stalker must be at least 16th level and have the Blindsense Talent in order to take this Talent.

Rogue Talent: The Stalker may choose any Rogue Talent for which she qualifies, with an effective Rogue level equal to ½ her Stalker levels (minimum 1). A Stalker may not choose an Advanced Talent this way.

Shadow Jaunt (Su): The Stalker may use the Shadows not only to hide, but to travel. Once per day, as a Move Action, the Stalker may step anywhere into an area of at least Dim Light and reappear anywhere else in another area of Dim Light up to 30ft. away from herself. The Stalker must be at least level 4 to take this ability. Starting at 8th level, and again at every 4th level thereafter, The Stalker may take this Talent again; each time she takes this Talent, she gains an additional Daily Use of this Ability and doubles the distance she may travel.

Minor Shadow Magic (Sp): The Stalker chooses any one 2nd level spell with the Darkness descriptor. She may cast that spell once per day as a Spell-Like Ability for every 4 Stalker levels she has attained. The Stalker must have the Major Magic Rogue Talent in order to select this Talent.

Major Shadow Magic (Sp): The Stalker chooses any one 3rd level spell with the Darkness Descriptor. She may cast that spell once per day as a Spell-Like Ability for every 6 Stalker levels she has attained. A Stalker must have the Minor Shadow Magic Talent in order to select this Talent.

Perfect Fall (Ex): The Stalker suffers no Falling Damage while adjacent to a wall or other surface. Even without such a surface, the Stalker suffers only half as much Falling Damage as normal, and always lands on her feet.

Rooftop Infiltrator (Ex): The Stalker gains a Climb Speed equal to one-half her base speed. If she has 10 or more Ranks in Acrobatics, this increases to your base speed.

Shadow Companion (Sp): Once per day, for every 6 levels the Stalker has attained, she may summon a Shadow, with the same Alignment as the Stalker, for a number of minutes equal to ½ the Stalker’s levels. This is a Spell-Like Ability that otherwise functions as the Summon Monster III spell.

Shadow Champion (Sp): Once per day, the Stalker may summon a Greater Shadow, with the same Alignment as the Stalker, for a number of rounds equal to the Stalker’s class level. This is a Spell-Like Ability that otherwise functions as the Summon Monster V spell-like ability. The Stalker must be at least 10th level and must have the Shadow Companion Talent in order to choose this Talent.

Strike the Unseen (Ex): The Stalker gains the Blind-Fight feat as a Bonus Feat. She can also deal Sneak Attack damage against creatures with Total Concealment. The Stalker must be at least 4th level to take this ability.

Break the Unseen (Ex): The Stalker gains the Improved Blind-Fight feat as a Bonus Feat, even if she doesn’t meet the Prerequisites. The Stalker must be at least 10th level to take this ability.

Surprise Strike (Ex): The Stalker gains a +1 Circumstance Bonus to Attacks made against creatures denied their Dexterity Bonus to AC. This increases to +2 at 5th level and every fifth level thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

Up Close and Personal (Ex): When the Stalker successfully attempts an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent’s space during a Move Action, she can make a single Attack as a Swift Action against that enemy. That enemy is denied their Dexterity Bonus to AC for the purposes of that Attack. The Stalker must be at least 4th level to choose this Talent.


I'd so want to play that prodigy haha.
I would note that techincally in Ultimate Equipment, the sectioning (and on the paizo prd) that poisons I believe count as alchemical items. (plus craft alchemy to make them).

Though I do think they they should really be able to do poisons. Even make some of the possible "on the fly infusions" to be poisons. Basically poison 1,2,3,4 etc. Either at spell DC or adds casting stat to the DC of the poison. Poison 1 coudl replicate poisons 300gold and under. and 6th could replicate poisons up to 3000 or whatever the most expensive poison is. viable for level per hours maybe? since your not going to want to make poison in the middle of sneaking but making it all ahead of time makes sense.
Adding in the poison talents from alchemist would basically allow you to use any poison instead of a spell use, and effectively. Without being able to sell them or anything. It also fits the idea of vigilante nicely. He could make knock out poison on the fly, ingest or contact and use it in his social side then act as his vigilante side(while faking being the guy who passed out on the toilet from the sleep poison).

This would work well with the anti alchemist sorta concept you put forth. Plus there are some alchemical items that jsut scream for poisons. Liquid Blade (even states you can poison them prior to use and have it readily able to whip out (great invigitlante form.MORE SO if they gain that storage tattoo). the caltrop replacment thing also screams for poison to be added to it, great for escapes.. all the people chasing you step on str poison laced caltrops and have a hard time following due to encumberance.

Sorta sounds like it would almost certanily have to be a melee character though, or i suppose crossbow or thrown. It would be difficult at best to use alchemical items the way some people use bombs as a main focus. So that could be a bit hard to balance out.
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I made an archetype similarish before, replacing bombs with a feature simiilar to Pathfinder chroncler's money bag thing. Except I made a "free per day" pool of money (since it was replacing bombs with alchemical items etc) and threw in a way to increase damage of alchemical items (usually adding Int to anything created with craft alchemy (so the AOE bombs and liquid blade could add Int to damage)) and also included the option to increase the DC for things that don't do damage (and an option of one or the other for things that did ) Which helped cheap poisons and splash weapons, and thigns like tanglefoot bag or thunderstones.


These do look pretty good. Shadowdancer is one of my favourite prestige classes that still has not been replicated in a class. Going sorcerer should not be the best way to gain Hide in Plain Sight. As such I would love a full class option for it.

That being said, the problem I see with stalker, and its the same problem that often occurs, is that if it gets everything the rogue gets, and then more, what need of the rogue.

Also, lowlight vision doesn't have ranges, as you just treat available light as twice as bright. Lowlight of 30' would then have some really weird interactions with even a common torch.

Shadow blend and shadow merge seem a bit too powerful. Near permanent concealment is very good. 75% miss chance constant is too good.

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