Uh, if you aren't at least 60% combat, why aren't you playing FATE instead? Seriously, if your game isn't mostly combat, you've chosen the wrong system to play.60% to 80% a combatYou poor sap. Get a GM that isn't running a hack'n'slash diablo-clone.Hadn't heard of Fate, got into Pathfinder because it's free, easy to find players and its populated forums make it easy to learn. I might consider checking fate out.
What are you doing in your games that you get >60% combat? I'm probably doing like 12.5% combat, 29.17% skills, 29.16% adventure, 29.17% RP. You do random, plotless encounters, right?
Know a good fate forum?
So if you meet up for a session to play, lets say 3 hours. You spend 22.5 minutes in combat, 52.5 minutes doing skill checks, another 52.5 minutes doing what? just walking around? and another 52.5 minutes just talking in character?
Does this sound about accurate as to how your sessions go?
Have you ever been in a PFS session to see what those are like?
Uh, if you aren't at least 60% combat, why aren't you playing FATE instead? Seriously, if your game isn't mostly combat, you've chosen the wrong system to play.60% to 80% a combatYou poor sap. Get a GM that isn't running a hack'n'slash diablo-clone.
Pathfinder can accommodate all sorts of campaigns. Combat driven ones are the easiest as every class has the ability to do it, and killing monsters often gives more exp than you would get from RP. Someone once provided the example that a solid RPG session is 33% combat, 33% RP, and 33% adventuring (making use of skill checks and the sort).
Other variants to those percentages are more appealing to certain groups of gamers. For example I just ran the first session of my new campaign and it was all mostly RP and adventuring with a combat at the end, and my players loved it because they enjoy their classes for their RP purposes. (I have a fighter and a rogue that more than contributed in that combat at the end)
TL;DR: pathfinder more than accommodates sessions of non combat related fun, lore oracle sounds like a blast to play.
ccan you link the forge of combat for me? Google legit brought me to a page on troubleshooting clearing cookiesI'm still not sure if you're naive to the system or just trolling. Traps are meant to deal quite a lot of damage, but usually stop short of killing most characters. A wand of cure light wounds doesn't heal for much, but used several times will fully heal even someone near death.
Generally - read the "guide to the class guides" on these forums. Google "the forge of combat" by TarkXT, which will inform you tactically. Any character should have a combat role and an out-of-combat role. Find your roles and be good at them, ideally complimenting the rest of the party.
Here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i5hWkHXHOetRlpLOmxbpoEWod77psN0JcwFvxCl NrGc/edit
Also:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_5Z07_yn8EJzPWcCAwo8q1iv_RnNqAHhKqfVQgx 00Cw/edit
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I think that for a new player this thread is a bit of an information/opinion overload.
Kaim - I would suggest you have a read around the forums and get a feel for things. Most things have already had a bit of discussion, and searching for threads about oracle optimization (for example) can answer a lot of queries. D20pfsrd.org is a good searchable reference for classes, rules, feats etc if you need it.
If you have a specific question then by all means ask the forum. Even then be prepared for a hundred different opinions. More general questions tend to bring out arguments, acrimony and conflicting answers - as with this thread. Play the character you want to play and enjoy yourself, but knowing the system can enhance that in many cases.
*edit* linkified:
Read the stuff relevant to you in these and you'll know more than 90% of players.
Uh, if you aren't at least 60% combat, why aren't you playing FATE instead? Seriously, if your game isn't mostly combat, you've chosen the wrong system to play.60% to 80% a combatYou poor sap. Get a GM that isn't running a hack'n'slash diablo-clone.Hadn't heard of Fate, got into Pathfinder because it's free, easy to find players and its populated forums make it easy to learn. I might consider checking fate out.
What are you doing in your games that you get >60% combat? I'm probably doing like 12.5% combat, 29.17% skills, 29.16% adventure, 29.17% RP. You do random, plotless encounters, right?
Know a good fate forum?
So if you meet up for a session to play, lets say 3 hours. You spend 22.5 minutes in combat, 52.5 minutes doing skill checks, another 52.5 minutes doing what? just walking around? and another 52.5 minutes just talking in character?
Does this sound about accurate as to how your sessions go?
Have you ever been in a PFS session to see what those are like?
Sounds about right, give or take with combat since I usually go a session without it that leads to a lot of combat.
PFS is hack'n'slash because you never know if you're going to be with the same party, making RP difficult with other PCs, and because it's easy.
"Adventure"?
Could you pick something more nebulous?
Or is that mean to be the Wild Card slot? "Could be a random encounter, could be you needing to climb a cliff while lava flows up from below. Could be both!".
Regardless, combat is generally 60% of the game for two reasons:
1.) Combat takes up a lot of time in a session (skill challenges don't).
2.) Most of the game's rules are devoted to combat.
This game is mostly a combat game. It certainly doesn't do the skills thing right, since everything that can be accomplished by skills can be accomplished by magic, so instead of the fun and tension of "I climb the castle walls, hugging the stone as a guard comes by and praying he doesn't see me" it goes "I cast Fly and Invisibiity let's do this."
RP isn't something limited to the system (nor being out of combat).
As already mentioned "adventure" is whatever you make it. Adventure is like fun, impossible to really define without using other words that are also impossible to actually define.
So that leaves combat.
I echo Anzyr's remark: Try playing a game that's better suited to it. There's a lot of good ones out there that are also free.
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Stuff like that is largely up to GM discretion, but generally speaking Kn. Local gets you the local customs, RECENT history (if somebody was murdered last week or whatever, whereas Kn. History will get you that King Regal founded this place in 1420 AR and...), and the inhabitants of a given town.
So while Local would tell you that Baker Tom lives <Here> and owns a shop <Here> you'd probably need Diplomacy to Gather Information for any rumors around town about Baker Tom.
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good stuff, so the tool I'm using now is the "masterwork guide" from the app store and Google of course. Is there cheeky things I can do with knowledges besides using them against creatures? Like could I knowledge local to find something to blackmail a merchant with and stuff like that?
Mostly - using Knowledge is passive. You go into a new area and the DM asks for a Knowledge: Local roll and passing lets you know about the crooked guards who'll turn on you if you go to them complaining of the thief guilds. Or Knowledge: Nobility to know that the local baron is mostly controlled by his adviser - letting you know to sweet-talk him instead of wasting time on the baron.
etc.
"Adventure"?
Could you pick something more nebulous?
Or is that mean to be the Wild Card slot? "Could be a random encounter, could be you needing to climb a cliff while lava flows up from below. Could be both!".
Regardless, combat is generally 60% of the game for two reasons:
1.) Combat takes up a lot of time in a session (skill challenges don't).
2.) Most of the game's rules are devoted to combat.
This game is mostly a combat game. It certainly doesn't do the skills thing right, since everything that can be accomplished by skills can be accomplished by magic, so instead of the fun and tension of "I climb the castle walls, hugging the stone as a guard comes by and praying he doesn't see me" it goes "I cast Fly and Invisibiity let's do this."
RP isn't something limited to the system (nor being out of combat).
As already mentioned "adventure" is whatever you make it. Adventure is like fun, impossible to really define without using other words that are also impossible to actually define.
So that leaves combat.
I echo Anzyr's remark: Try playing a game that's better suited to it. There's a lot of good ones out there that are also free.
Point me to a decent fate forum then.
Oracle of Lore is one of the most ridiculous options in the game. There are plenty of ways to push skills to INT, so Focused Trance becomes ridiculous very quickly. I have a level 1 build that can hit 32 as the minimum possible diplomacy result, maximum of 55 with a "roll twice and take the better result" option, and it removes the cap on diplomacy step increases. As long as you're able to wait the 1 minute to make the check, you can reliably turn a hostile creature to friendly. No gear required for that whatsoever. On top of that, I have useful spells for in and out of combat. Again, level 1 build. It's PFS legal, too. The only reason I haven't played it is that I don't want to disrupt tables.
An important thing to keep in mind is that a character is only as good as your table allows it to be. Part of that is GM decisions and part of that is the group meta. Fighters and Rogues might be on the low end of the general spectrum, but a GM that tailors to those classes well can make them very productive to the group.
Point me to a decent fate forum then."Adventure"?
Could you pick something more nebulous?
Or is that mean to be the Wild Card slot? "Could be a random encounter, could be you needing to climb a cliff while lava flows up from below. Could be both!".
Regardless, combat is generally 60% of the game for two reasons:
1.) Combat takes up a lot of time in a session (skill challenges don't).
2.) Most of the game's rules are devoted to combat.
This game is mostly a combat game. It certainly doesn't do the skills thing right, since everything that can be accomplished by skills can be accomplished by magic, so instead of the fun and tension of "I climb the castle walls, hugging the stone as a guard comes by and praying he doesn't see me" it goes "I cast Fly and Invisibiity let's do this."
RP isn't something limited to the system (nor being out of combat).
As already mentioned "adventure" is whatever you make it. Adventure is like fun, impossible to really define without using other words that are also impossible to actually define.
So that leaves combat.
I echo Anzyr's remark: Try playing a game that's better suited to it. There's a lot of good ones out there that are also free.
Dunno if there is one, I don't actually play FATE, though I would like to play the Dresden Files game (which is based on it).
Have you tried Google?
I was under the assumption that as a non-video game rpg it would be more like a role playing game than a combat game, which is why I picked a lore oracle instead of one specifically for buffs and debuffing
Yeah, like at least 75% of other RPGs are like what you described, but Pathfinder/D&D is not--it's an adventure game, which kind of means a combat game.
And you misunderstood my statements in the other thread--I did not say you had to fight, I said you had to do something during combat. I, personally, play mostly support characters and just about never swing a weapon or deal damage, but I'm never left twiddling my thumbs during a fight--I cast spells that do other things, like buff or control the battlefield.
I would never recommend FATE to anyone ever. It's got a totally different roleplaying agenda than most traditional games--it's roleplaying as "telling a group story," and you, as a player, directly influence the narrative beyond the capacity of your actual character. That's a very different experience, and one I personally can't stand. For a much better non-combat game, look at, uh, basically everything that isn't d20. The d20 skill system is a tacked on afterthought joke.
World of Darkness, especially the new world of darkness post the God Machin Chronicles update, is my favorite RPG for that kind of stuff. The system is perfect for a wide variety of actions--amusingly, I'd say actual pitched combat is what it does worst.
Point me to a decent fate forum then."Adventure"?
Could you pick something more nebulous?
Or is that mean to be the Wild Card slot? "Could be a random encounter, could be you needing to climb a cliff while lava flows up from below. Could be both!".
Regardless, combat is generally 60% of the game for two reasons:
1.) Combat takes up a lot of time in a session (skill challenges don't).
2.) Most of the game's rules are devoted to combat.
This game is mostly a combat game. It certainly doesn't do the skills thing right, since everything that can be accomplished by skills can be accomplished by magic, so instead of the fun and tension of "I climb the castle walls, hugging the stone as a guard comes by and praying he doesn't see me" it goes "I cast Fly and Invisibiity let's do this."
RP isn't something limited to the system (nor being out of combat).
As already mentioned "adventure" is whatever you make it. Adventure is like fun, impossible to really define without using other words that are also impossible to actually define.
So that leaves combat.
I echo Anzyr's remark: Try playing a game that's better suited to it. There's a lot of good ones out there that are also free.
Dunno if there is one, I don't actually play FATE, though I would like to play the Dresden Files game (which is based on it).
Have you tried Google?
Google is mostly giving me non-forum related download links, fate hate, things that look like they belong with dial-up, various game resources and scarcly populated forums.
I'll try /tg/.
Point me to a decent fate forum then."Adventure"?
Could you pick something more nebulous?
Or is that mean to be the Wild Card slot? "Could be a random encounter, could be you needing to climb a cliff while lava flows up from below. Could be both!".
Regardless, combat is generally 60% of the game for two reasons:
1.) Combat takes up a lot of time in a session (skill challenges don't).
2.) Most of the game's rules are devoted to combat.
This game is mostly a combat game. It certainly doesn't do the skills thing right, since everything that can be accomplished by skills can be accomplished by magic, so instead of the fun and tension of "I climb the castle walls, hugging the stone as a guard comes by and praying he doesn't see me" it goes "I cast Fly and Invisibiity let's do this."
RP isn't something limited to the system (nor being out of combat).
As already mentioned "adventure" is whatever you make it. Adventure is like fun, impossible to really define without using other words that are also impossible to actually define.
So that leaves combat.
I echo Anzyr's remark: Try playing a game that's better suited to it. There's a lot of good ones out there that are also free.
Dunno if there is one, I don't actually play FATE, though I would like to play the Dresden Files game (which is based on it).
Have you tried Google?
Waiting on my Dresden Files Accelerated Kickstarter reward myself.
As long as you're able to wait the 1 minute to make the check, you can reliably turn a hostile creature to friendly.You can drop that down to a round with an unchained Skill Unlock. It would be funny - for one session - they'd get boring/annoying.
well you can't diplomacy animals unless your a druid, and there's always someone you want dead.
Buffs, debuffs, more battlefield control (can never have enough, really), that sort of thing.
Blessing of Fervor is a good Haste alternative.
ccan you link the forge of combat for me? Google legit brought me to a page on troubleshooting clearing cookiesI'm still not sure if you're naive to the system or just trolling. Traps are meant to deal quite a lot of damage, but usually stop short of killing most characters. A wand of cure light wounds doesn't heal for much, but used several times will fully heal even someone near death.
Generally - read the "guide to the class guides" on these forums. Google "the forge of combat" by TarkXT, which will inform you tactically. Any character should have a combat role and an out-of-combat role. Find your roles and be good at them, ideally complimenting the rest of the party.
The forge of combat is exactly what I mentioned up thread.
Hammer = kill things good (blatant damage)
Arm = help your friends kill things good (buff and debuff, occasional heal)
Anvil = battlefield control (summoning, walls, pits, etc...)
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And you misunderstood my statements in the other thread--I did not say you had to fight, I said you had to do something during combat. I, personally, play mostly support characters and just about never swing a weapon or deal damage, but I'm never left twiddling my thumbs during a fight--I cast spells that do other things, like buff or control the battlefield.so I would want to mainly concentrate on buffs and debuffs since the wizard is battlefield control and built it based on the being a god wizard guide.
Just because a wizard is doing battlefield control doesn't mean you can't also.
The wizard has a wall of stone to block the enemy? Throw in a summon monster for yourself to give a flanking bonus. Or a pit spell to further control the enemy.
This is a co-op game. Be cooperative.
I don't say to myself, "Self, my friend here is playing a barbarian, therefore I cannot play any other class that does direct damage to the enemy."
So why do you say to yourself that ou can't do battlefield control with your oracle just because someone else is doing that too (even if they do it better). Think one summoned monster is useful? So is two! And you can cast more of them in one day than a wizard can! So when the wizard has run out of summon monster spells, you can keep going battle after battle.
Try not to compete - but rather try to work together to become great.
One other consideration ... maybe there's so much focus on combat is that, usually, more often than not that's where characters risk death. Even the deadly decadent court intrigue that usually results in discrete poisons on a dagger in your back often ends up played out ... as you feeling something in your back, shortly before you're told to roll for initiative to do something about your knife supplier.
Thus, while there are rules and skills about sweet-talking the king, intimidating the king, lying your butt off to the king, or casing the king's treasure stash, you're more likely to get hacked to bits when you're fighting the king's guards (whether or not you're on his side).
Which means that your barbarian and wizard friends would appreciate if you do something to help them not get hacked to bits.
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I think this thread will need acid or fire to die
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So traps aren't made to kill just lightly wound? Could I get a wand of cure light wounds with my starting wealth?
@dafydd
Can i pick mummy's mask or do I actually have to play that campaign?
Heh. Anzyr is understating things.
*Most* traps in pathfinder tell the enemy you are coming, giving him time to cast his minute per level buffs and cast summons while you are topping off your cure light wounds wands.
Many deal stat damage, causing you to waste restorations, or worse dump you into pits with hungry things in them, leaving you with reduced hit points, prone, and a fight on your hands.
I imagine the OP laughing hard at home reading the answers he got with his bait posts
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Ignore everything in this thread to date. The best class is the class you have the most fun with.
What does this have to do with anything?
60% to 80% a combatYou poor sap. Get a GM that isn't running a hack'n'slash diablo-clone.
He is right in a way that 60-80% of dice rolls in PF are combat based
... is it really true that these four classes are the only ones worth pickin?
No, it is not true. All the classes in the game can be usefull and fun to play. It will vary from person to person and table to table because of game and play styles. Some say rogues are useless (I have seldom seen them be so in my play experience) some say Wizards are king of all they survey (I have seldom seen them be so in my play experience as well) but it all comes down to how the group decides to play the game.
But one thing to note is that this is a game about heroic adventure where the group will be going into dangerous situations and counting on each other to survive so every character should have something to contribute in combat, otherwise no group would bring you along in game or in a real life combat situation. It is after all a group oriented game an everyone should pull their weight in and out of combat in some fashion.
Now, contributing in combat can be killing the enemy or helping the party. So if your don't want to kill bad guys at least be able to make your team better with spells or healing so they can kill the bad guys better. But if they have to keep you alive because you cannot in any way do so yourself they are well within their rights not to have you along on the adventure.
World of Darkness, especially the new world of darkness post the God Machin Chronicles update, is my favorite RPG for that kind of stuff. The system is perfect for a wide variety of actions--amusingly, I'd say actual pitched combat is what it does worst.
Pffttt I'm so done with the crowd World of Darkness draws.
I'll just stick with Exalted. Where my sidereal martial artist literally punches you in the childhood memories. Where my jade caste alchemical literally lifts up the mountain to free the trapped miners for the good of the city. And where my solar exalt baker can make people literally climax with the smell of his muffins.
Pffttt I'm so done with the crowd World of Darkness draws.
I have heard this so often, but never experienced it. Probably because I don't go after world of darkness players, I just teach other games world of darkness. The system is really solid regardless.
I'll just stick with Exalted. Where my sidereal martial artist literally punches you in the childhood memories. Where my jade caste alchemical literally lifts up the mountain to free the trapped miners for the good of the city. And where my solar exalt baker can make people literally climax with the smell of his muffins.
Every edition of Exalted so far has hideous rules problems. I do like what you described, but paranoia combos and other side effects of the gaping rules issues always made it hard to enjoy. It's been more than a year though, since I saw a new Exalted being kickstarted, so, I guess there's hope that they finally fixed it.
Seems like you answered you own question.
And you misunderstood my statements in the other thread--I did not say you had to fight, I said you had to do something during combat. I, personally, play mostly support characters and just about never swing a weapon or deal damage, but I'm never left twiddling my thumbs during a fight--I cast spells that do other things, like buff or control the battlefield...so I would want to mainly concentrate on buffs and debuffs since the wizard is battlefield control and built it based on the being a god wizard guide.
That was my quote incorrectly not actually quoted. Kaim's words followed the part you quoted.
Every edition of Exalted so far has hideous rules problems. I do like what you described, but paranoia combos and other side effects of the gaping rules issues always made it hard to enjoy. It's been more than a year though, since I saw a new Exalted being kickstarted, so, I guess there's hope that they finally fixed it.
Frankly, as big of an optimizer and tactics guy as I am I think that if you're playing with that sort of crowd in Exalted you're doing it wrong. I really, REALLY, hate what those folks at rpgnet did. But that's a rant for another day.
Though if paranoia combos are such a problem there are exalted other than solars to choose from. I somewhat favor sidereals and alchemicals myself.
I guess a lot of my hype for it is that I kneel at the soulsteel throne of Micheal Goodwin the tiny soft spoken man that he is.
Kaim - the best advice anyone can give you is to talk to your GM. If this "friend" you're referring to is the GM, then you're in for a heavy combat-focused game.
If the GM is someone else, ask them for advice on your character. While what you hear on the forums may help, a lot of it is based on how those people play, rather than what your GM is planning on.
People telling you that x class is good or x class is bad are all based around a certain play style. In my home games, people rarely play wizards as they find them too fragile, fighters are often one of the classes people fight over being able to play, clerics are often healing-focused, etc.
Everyone's experience will be different - talk to your GM to get a better feel on his/her outlook on the game.
I think this thread will need acid or fire to die
damn threads with regenerate
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Kaim, this is the advice forum, so here's the best advice you'll ever get*:
Leave these forums and don't come back for a long time.
As a gamer of many years, I can tell you that this place is the best and the worst thing to happen to the game. Unfortunately, you don't have the experience to know good from bad. Read the wrong stuff and, not only will it confuse you, it'll ruin the game for you.
This thread is a good example of what I mean.
*in my opinion.
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Kaim, this is the advice forum, so here's the best advice you'll ever get*:
Leave these forums and don't come back for a long time.
As a gamer of many years, I can tell you that this place is the best and the worst thing to happen to the game. Unfortunately, you don't have the experience to know good from bad. Read the wrong stuff and, not only will it confuse you, it'll ruin the game for you.
This thread is a good example of what I mean.
*in my opinion.
These threads helped me figure it that optimizing isn't a distinct thing from roleplaying, and that the purpose of the game should be enjoyment and fun rather than trying to stop people from playing what they want to play.
These boards have seriously increased my enjoyment of the game and have drastically improved my playing, GMing, and my table experiences.
So thanks for trying to invalidate the good these boards have done and thanks for being condescending to everyone here.
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Note to this: Evocation is a perfectly fine specialty for wizards.
The reasons it is looked down on is:
1) You must BUILD to it. Seriously. You have to take specific classes, traits and feats to make a good Blaster Caster. ON its own, Evocation doesn't end encounters...the base spells do too little damage.
Other schools of magic are usable right out of the can, no changes, no specific builds.
2) It takes a few levels to get going.
Sure, it's possible to toss out a 5d6 Burning Hands at level 1. But you have to get close to the enemy to do that. It doesn't really start ramping up until you get Fireball, maaaaaaybe Scorching Ray.
3) It burns higher spell slots.
Since you have to metamagic to make blasting work, you're devoting higher level spell slots to damage spells, instead of high level spells.
4) It has too many defenses.
Between creatures resistances/immunities, Spell Resistance, and Reflex saves, there's too many ways to reduce the blasting effect.
Hence, optimized casters prefer to hit weak saves, avoid resistances, or have no-save, no resist spells.
5) Unless it kills, damage doesn't end combat, and wounded enemies still attack at full strength.
Hence, Save and suck, or no-save stuff is preferred.
The reasons it works is:
1) Guess what? you can choose to NOT MEMORIZE EVOCATION SPELLS. So you can use all those other spells the other wizards can, and they are good out of the box. Because they didn't build to blast, however, they can't do what you can.
2) When it gets rolling...well, "I do 120 hp to everything in the room, DC 23 Reflex for half. If any live, I do another 90 to them, roll again."
Lots of Damage solves a LOT of problems. There's a ton of ways to kill the enemy, but sometimes the best is to just plain KILL THE ENEMY RIGHT NOW.
3) Preferred Spell means you don't even have to memorize your extra fireballs, you can just cast them on demand.
4) Admixture Evoc means you can choose the element on demand and avoid immunity as you like.
Or, you know, just use a different spell.
5) Rolling 15d6 with a chortling expression can be a lot of fun.
=Aelryinth
...
You forgot the bit where everyone who fails their save does nothing for three rounds.
Or the bit where the vast majority of higher level monsters have crappy reflex saves.
Blasting is one of those things where you either keep it around as a backup option and break it out every now and again, or you specialize heavily and essentially be a fighter who puts their sword through things, except your sword is a great big ball of fire(or not, because admixture), and you put it through entire encounters, utterly wrecking them.
I thought admixture was an Alchemist's trick(?) Is there a way for my Druid to use that for fun and profit? Pardon if this is off topic.
...You forgot the bit where everyone who fails their save does nothing for three rounds.
That may be evocation, but it is battlefield control.
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That may be evocation, but it is battlefield control....You forgot the bit where everyone who fails their save does nothing for three rounds.
Even at level one ear piercing scream gives stunned, then spontaneous immolation gives on fire, with the right feat, magic missiles give you prone. Evocation has *lots* of status effects it can dish out, and those can be more valuable than damage. Then at third you get a free dirty trick per turn. (Chains of perdition.)
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I thought admixture was an Alchemist's trick(?) Is there a way for my Druid to use that for fun and profit? Pardon if this is off topic.
Admixture is one of the subset schools of evoker specialization.
Your druid can use Elemental Spell to pull the trick with a specific element, but it won't be as good as an Admixture wizard or a sorc's bloodline speciality.
==Aelryinth
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And i tought the most important was to have fun playing... Was i wrong...
And i tought the most important was to have fun playing... Was i wrong...
in a sense yes, in that if you thought that was the only manageable or goal worth of pursuit. especially when it isn't singularly obtainable, you need to do something else to have fun. for some that's being the best you can be, for some someone else doing this can ruin your fun. such is life.
And i tought the most important was to have fun playing... Was i wrong...
Some people can have fun playing an underpowered character.
Most people want a character that is good at what they want it to do, so they can have fun in AND out of combat.
Evocation is a school that unless you build for it, you will NOT be effective in it. It's just the way the system is set up.
There's actually nothing wrong with that, because when Evocation IS set up right, you can have 1-2 spells that can wreck encounters at your fingertips and use them 10-20 times or more. Throwing 150 points of AoE damage into a CR 10 encounter at that level can reeeeeeeally make things easier.
And if it doesn't work, you just Evard's tentacles like everyone else, or something.
==Aelryinth