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One thing I have noticed quickly is that... The Warlock and the Zealot are pretty much shafted when it comes to their talents...
In order to do their schtick they need to burn half of thier talents just to keep up... and even then they are worse off than their respective counterparts (Inquisitor/Warpriest for the Zealot and Magus/Bard for the Warlock). And, I mean, this requirement of wasting your talents just so you can keep using your primary ability will do nothing but lead to cookie cutter builds everwhere since you only have 5 other talents to work with...
And if they plan on releasing seperate talents for your Social guise that draw on the same resource (talents) then the issue only becomes even more compounded since they pretty much have to either give up spell casting (and what is the point of playing a Warlock if you cant cast?) or you give up doing ANYTHING in your Social guise...
For Zealot probably but the Wizard spell list is kind of strong for what else the Vigilante does. I just hope that there are talents that can compete with casting. I'd love to make a warlock based on Mystic Bolts or Bombs as opposed to spells.
The thing is though, the Warlock has such few spells per day that having the Wizard Spell list is kinda negligent. He can barely cast anything anyway, and making him waste half his talents to be an even worse caster than a Bard or Magus is rough...
The thing is though, the Warlock has such few spells per day that having the Wizard Spell list is kinda negligent. He can barely cast anything anyway, and making him waste half his talents to be an even worse caster than a Bard or Magus is rough...
Well he doesn't need to cast much given the spell list. In some cases I can see people satisfied with just mage armor. As it stands the magic talents effectively give around three spells per day. From the level of a talent that seems extreme.
Alternatively they could have full on spells per day progression and the Avenger/Stalker can use the spell slots to fuel class features.
The thing is though, the Warlock has such few spells per day that having the Wizard Spell list is kinda negligent. He can barely cast anything anyway, and making him waste half his talents to be an even worse caster than a Bard or Magus is rough...Well he doesn't need to cast much given the spell list. In some cases I can see people satisfied with just mage armor. As it stands the magic talents effectively give around three spells per day. From the level of a talent that seems extreme.
Alternatively they could have full on spells per day progression and the Avenger/Stalker can use the spell slots to fuel class features.
The thing is, they get 3 spells per day from one talent. But that is the only way they get new Spell levels and spells per day. If they don't burn talents, they never progress in spells per day or spell level they can cast. I am not comparing them to the other vigilantes, I am comparing them to Bards and Magus. The other two get full casting progression AND their other abilities. The Zealot needs to either choose having class abilities or spell casting. That is poor class design and needs to get fixed...
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Would it be better if they got full six level casting as the base ability and the base abilities of the Avenger and Stalker were buffed to match, or would that be too powerfull?
What if they had 4th level casting like paladins and rangers, but modified so they start casting at first level instead of fourth?
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Personally I think balancing the Warlock/Zealot vs the martials is really bad since they are underpowered...
If anything the martials should get something like a Grit pool and power up their abilities, using the grit pool as a resource...
I'm probably going to only ever need to go up to casting 3rd level wizard spells, maybe 4 for a high level game
but now your a 3/4 BAB with even worse casting than a full bab caster... and your still out 30-40% of you class abilities... just to be worse than Magus and the Bard at casting AND having minimal class abilities...
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Would it be better if they got full six level casting as the base ability and the base abilities of the Avenger and Stalker were buffed to match, or would that be too powerfull?
What if they had 4th level casting like paladins and rangers, but modified so they start casting at first level instead of fourth?I think the best solution to that is
Keep the requirements for taking the talent to unlock the spell level.
but behind the scenes as you level up you gain spells per day, that match one of the other 6th level casters.So at lv 20, you might have a lv 20 magus's spells per day. but if you never took any extra talents you could only cast lv 1 and lv0 spells. But could cast full spells per day amount.
This is a decent balance I think. It allows for those who want full spell caster to be able to go straight at it and be able to play as a fairly caster centric style.
but allow people who want less caster and just want to focus on specific talent lines to be able to do so, and not be stuck with 2 spells+int at lv 20.
I really like this idea. A lot of other talents power up as you gain levels. It's kind of weird that casting doesn't. You have to take talents to get better at your main ability.
I was looking to play a Warlock that doesn't focus on casting. Arcane II would only get me 1 (or 2) 2nd level spells per day, plus a couple more 1st level. I'm not sure it is worth it unless I keep going. I would be a lot more excited if each Arcane talent unlocked a spell level and the number of spells per day automatically tracked a level chart.
I still think giving an additional benefit to Arcane Training II-VI and Divine Training II-VI is the way to go.
I also kind of like the idea of giving the Avenger and Stalker spell slots, and then something really fun and interesting to do with them. For example, expend a spell slot and gain a bonus equal to the spell level on attack and damage rolls for 1 round. Or a bonus equal to double the spell level on a skill check. Or an immediate action bonus to AC or a saving throw.
Stuff like that.
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I think there are several ways to do this.
One would be, as SmiloDan says, give an added benefit to each level of training. This would be tough because the abilities that would be helpful to you would depend on what kind of caster you want to be. They could be based on wizard arcane schools or domains, but there's already a domain option for the Zealot.
Another option is to give these two specializations automatic progression of spellcasting, but have the talents increase their potency. So, for example, you could start them off with casting like a bloodrager/paladin (max 4th level spells, spellcasting starts at 4th level). If they chose Arcane Training I at 4th level, they'd get more spells (casting progression like a Magus or Inquisitor). Make this one be dependent on having Arcane Armor Training so that they also have to use a feat to get it. Finally, you could have a high-level talent that requires a few metamagic feats and/or Spell Perfection that would let them get full 9-level casting, but it would be at the cost of a significant number of talents/feats. Of course this is very top-ended, and you wouldn't have any 1st-level spellcasting at 1st character level when you really need it the most.
Finally, you could leave it the way it is, but have the upgrades to casting be available as feats as well. So you could say "The vigilante can sacrifice either a feat or a vigilante talent to gain Arcane Training II once attaining 4th level." and so on, or simply create a feat called "Boost Vigilante Spells", which can be taken multiple times, that does the same thing. This would let you take more of the flavorful vigilante abilities by sacrificing some feats, while still getting decent casting progression. I personally think if anything should be done, this last option is the best of my three suggestions.
Warlocks can get bombs, but even if you spent all your talents on having good bom discoveries you'd never have as much power or versatility as an alchemist. You can spend half your talents on good spell progression, but you'll never have as many spells per day (or as good a progression) as a magus, hard, inquisitor, or warpriest. You can channel, but as a lower level. The worst talents (and the most boring) are the ones that function like another class's features because you are spending a limited resource to be worse than that class.
Some of these talents feel like they are strong enough to be specializations (Bombs and the Kinetic Blast-esqe Mystic Bolts) while others aren't even strong enough to be feats (Environmental Weapon and Nothing Can Stop Me). Warlock Talents are generally very powerful new abilities or scaling class features while Avenger talents are basically two feats. They should be roughly the same power level.
If they're going to give the zealot Channel Energy, it should be at the same power level as the oracle (1 + Cha mod/day, 1d6 +1d6 per 2 level). Channel Energy is already a relatively weak source of healing (half the number of hit dice of most targets, the same type of die as the lowest PC class, and with no modifier to the dice rolled).