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Problem is as has been mentioned before The characters from comics this is based on do not lose there powers when there in there civilian identity heck when you get down to it there Personas arent even that diffrent (Certainly less diffrent than one that would make someones allighment change even slightly).
Also duel identitys only work in the comics because A They come up with a reason time after time after time for the hero to use there ability without being seen and/or having a distraction so they can change identity. and B comic villans tend to run with the stupid ball when it comes to hero identities.
Lead Designer
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Problem is as has been mentioned before The characters from comics this is based on do not lose there powers when there in there civilian identity heck when you get down to it there Personas arent even that diffrent (Certainly less diffrent than one that would make someones allighment change even slightly).
Also duel identitys only work in the comics because A They come up with a reason time after time after time for the hero to use there ability without being seen and/or having a distraction so they can change identity. and B comic villans tend to run with the stupid ball when it comes to hero identities.
Yup.. and we are looking into this issue as well. There is certainly a desire to make the different identities a bit more than a cosmetic shift, but we may have put the line a little bit further than was necessary to get the difference we wanted. This is why we playtest.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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I actually like that they lose some of their abilities, both from a cinematic perspective, and from a metaphysical perspective (They are gaining scrying protection by metaphysically becoming a different person, with different morals, different mannerisms, it makes sense that that different person would have different abilities.)
But playtesting it when you only lose stuff without gaining stuff is going to be hard.
(While we have you posting, and speaking of testing, any update on the PFS chronicle?)
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I think the problem here is a matter of the switch timing and that is certainly something we are looking into. I think many of the problems mentioned here go away with a few simple changes.
Aside from that, we are looking to strengthen the concept of the class, not scrap it entirely because you can kinda/sorta do it some other ways. This is an avenue we have gone down before with some success. I am sure there are those that disagree (there always are), but that is not going to stop us from trying.
As always, thank you for your feedback.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I agree that the time required for the switch is a BIG part of it, and that alone would go a long way towards making it functional.
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Problem is as has been mentioned before The characters from comics this is based on do not lose there powers when there in there civilian identity heck when you get down to it there Personas arent even that diffrent (Certainly less diffrent than one that would make someones allighment change even slightly).
Also duel identitys only work in the comics because A They come up with a reason time after time after time for the hero to use there ability without being seen and/or having a distraction so they can change identity. and B comic villans tend to run with the stupid ball when it comes to hero identities.
Yup.. and we are looking into this issue as well. There is certainly a desire to make the different identities a bit more than a cosmetic shift, but we may have put the line a little bit further than was necessary to get the difference we wanted. This is why we playtest.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Yeeeah thats the other thing the Identity thing actually makes my players uncomfortable in there view it comes across less of a class feature and more like a split personality disorder
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Bruce Wayne ducks under the table to hide... and then Batman comes out from underneath it SECONDS later. No masked hero worth their salt takes five minutes to change into the disguise.
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A!%&~~& PC: "I look under the table to find my buddy Bruce Wayne."
Vigilante Player: "Come on, man..."
A@~#~!* PC: "I look under the table to find my buddy Bruce Wayne."
Vigilante Player: "Come on, man..."
Surprise! Bruce Wayne has a way to turn invisible! Dang wayangs and shadows :P
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An easy way to get around the dual identity issue with party members is to bring them in on it. You might have a session or more that places the vigilante player in the position of having to trust his fellow adventurers with who he is and why he does what he is doing. A good example is the series Arrow.
Oliver started off waging a one-man war against a particular subset of criminals (obviously an avenger vigilante). After 2 episodes, John Diggle finds out his client's "deal" (Oliver has no choice in order to save his bodyguard's life) and is asked to help him. This expands beyond John to include Roy, Sara, Laurel, and Ray (Felicity isn't included because she's more in line with being loyal aid, the others actually go out and fight alongside Oliver).
Of course, all of this happens over the course of three seasons on a television show, but how that plays out in the course of the campaign is, as always, up to the players and their DM.
Bruce Wayne: Gnome
Batman: Wayang
Try to keep it straight, man.
An easy way to get around the dual identity issue with party members is to bring them in on it. You might have a session or more that places the vigilante player in the position of having to trust his fellow adventurers with who he is and why he does what he is doing. A good example is the series Arrow.
Now, I'll be the first to acknowledge I've never seen an episode of Arrow before. Maybe I'm totally off here. But is Oliver not the main character? Also known as the character who by default is afforded about twice-three times as much screentime as any other character? It's a bit easier to do a "gradual coming out story" when the person coming out is the lead. Pathfinder doesn't establish leads like that, though.
Yeah, that's the main issue.
Diggle's a good guy and all, but in Pathfinder terms he's more like a 3rd level Gunslinger as compared to Ollie's 6th level Slayer.
And the other characters fare even less well in many cases. They're his sidekicks. Arguably they're more interesting characters than Ollie himself sometimes, but they're still not his equals in skill or importance to the story.
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Yeah, that's the main issue.
Diggle's a good guy and all, but in Pathfinder terms he's more like a 3rd level Gunslinger as compared to Ollie's 6th level Slayer.
And the other characters fare even less well in many cases. They're his sidekicks. Arguably they're more interesting characters than Ollie himself sometimes, but they're still not his equals in skill or importance to the story.
Although somewhere around 4 or 5 of them have levels in vigilante now.
Personally I think the problem is that the costumed superhero gig is an extremely poor fit in Pathfinder in general. (Although to be fair, Galt has had at least one costumed hero in the guise of the Red Raven, or quite likely a succession of heroes playing the same role.)
But despite that you have a sizable horde of players that keep asking for it and so Paizo is making this effort to cater to them.
I can see where you are coming from, but I think Pathfinder is ever-increasingly broadening away from Tolkienic/western swords and sorcerors - Ninja/Samurai, then Gunslinger, then Iron Gods, then Occultists (psioni...ehrm psychics) plus [Legendary Games sword and planet Kickstarter Legendary Planet] and now Ultimate Intrigue. I think the fans are keen for the chassis of PF to fit many types of games.
And as you yourself pointed out, the class does look to be a good fit for the masked hero rather than the "super" hero.
Personally I'd rather the Warlock be the base class it could be, and the Zealot ditched completely. Then there could be any number of other specialisations that aren't emulations of other base classes to allow for all kinds of masked heroes - if the Dual Identity/Alter Ego is to be a thing. Which it most definitely seems to be.
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Although somewhere around 4 or 5 of them have levels in vigilante now.
And good god would that piss me off if it got transferred into Pathfinder logic. :P
Dwarf Player: "Hey, guys. I came here with my crazy dwarf ranger. He's a grizzled survivalist from the Mwangi Expanse who grew heavily resentful of the jungle, so he should fit in in this urban campaign. He's very straightforward but is great if you need to interrogate any punks."
Vigilante Player: "Cool. You'll be multiclassing into vigilante later."
Dwarf Player: "Wh...what? Nobody told me this was an all-vigilante campaign!"
Vigilante Player: "Oh, it's not. You can play your dwarf ranger or whatever, he just has to have a secret identity. Look, it makes roleplaying my character way easier, bro."
Dwarf Player: "But my dwarf...he hates everything the vigilante stands for. He's an honest guy who likes to keep things simple and direct. Like, he would regard a secret identity as totally unethical. He's not gonna reveal anyone's secret, but he's not gonna take on his own."
Vigilante Player: "What the hell, dude? Are you trying to screw up my concept? Look, if I play a vigilante, everyone's gonna have to pitch in to keep his secret. By playing vigilantes, too. That's called being a good teammate."
Dwarf Player: "B-but his oath...he promised his dying father..."
Vigilante Player: "Was he killed by a small-time mugger/crime boss?"
Dwarf Player: "No?"
Vigilante Player: "Then there's nothing I can do."
Although somewhere around 4 or 5 of them have levels in vigilante now.Yeah, that's the main issue.
Diggle's a good guy and all, but in Pathfinder terms he's more like a 3rd level Gunslinger as compared to Ollie's 6th level Slayer.
And the other characters fare even less well in many cases. They're his sidekicks. Arguably they're more interesting characters than Ollie himself sometimes, but they're still not his equals in skill or importance to the story.
I refuse to acknowledge Laurel exists unless I have to.
Though they do now have Nyssa, who is close to as good as Ollie, and Thea has improved really damn fast.
Ray doesn't count because he's on Legends of Tomorrow now instead.
But that does make three. =)
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Yeah, that's the main issue.
Diggle's a good guy and all, but in Pathfinder terms he's more like a 3rd level Gunslinger as compared to Ollie's 6th level Slayer.
And the other characters fare even less well in many cases. They're his sidekicks. Arguably they're more interesting characters than Ollie himself sometimes, but they're still not his equals in skill or importance to the story.
I don't doubt that you could make Oliver as a Slayer. But he works just as well as a 7th-level avenger vigilante. And I think Diggle is underrepresented as a 3rd level gunslinger. He might have been that when he's first introduced (taking his backstory into account), but I think over the course of three seasons he'd be closer to say 5th. Roy, Laurel, and Ray started out as 1st level vigilantes, but they clearly had levels in NPC classes prior to that. Sara received training in Nanda Parbat and is more than likely a 6th-level slayer.
Yeah, the main character is Oliver. The show is called Arrow and he is the Arrow. But within the context of the show, we also have Team Arrow, and Team Arrow is an adventuring party.
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Pathfinder adventuring parties rarely have a star to the extent that TV shows have one. Team Arrow is a highly irregular adventuring party with one player who's super into it and a bunch of players who just lean in occasionally and probably have to be NPCed a fair percent of the time.
And when adventuring parties do have a star, it's usually because one player, like I said, is more active than the rest. Adventuring parties aren't really supposed to have stars—they're ensemble pieces, four-man buddy cop movies. Every PC gets roughly equal screentime in their element. If your adventuring party has someone like Oliver, it's usually a sign that most of the party isn't as invested as they probably should be.
The rare exception to the "star" rule is when GMs build the campaign around one player, which occasionally does work. It's also incredibly uncommon, since you need at least three other players all eager to play the "sidekicks".
I don't doubt that you could make Oliver as a Slayer. But he works just as well as a 7th-level avenger vigilante.Yeah, that's the main issue.
Diggle's a good guy and all, but in Pathfinder terms he's more like a 3rd level Gunslinger as compared to Ollie's 6th level Slayer.
And the other characters fare even less well in many cases. They're his sidekicks. Arguably they're more interesting characters than Ollie himself sometimes, but they're still not his equals in skill or importance to the story.
The problem with making him an Avenger Vigilante instead of a Slayer is that he somehow loses all ability as an archer when he takes off the mask. I get the feeling that Oliver is a master bowman no matter what he's wearing.
Oliver has shown on several occasions that he can still shoot a bow (or fire a gun, or use kung fu) when he's around as Oliver.
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Sorry if I missed it. But what abilities does the vigilante lose in social form?
I would suggest using different tactics when in social and vigilante forms to hide your identity.
The more I read this thread the more I like this class. If your social identity keeps getting attacked it makes sense that he has learned to fight or has spend money on magical resources.
Sorry if I missed it. But what abilities does the vigilante lose in social form?
All of them.
All of them.Sorry if I missed it. But what abilities does the vigilante lose in social form?
No. Just the vigilante talents, and even then you keep the first one of your specialization.
Oliver has shown on several occasions that he can still shoot a bow (or fire a gun, or use kung fu) when he's around as Oliver.
Yeah, but post coming back from the dead he usually tries not, since he wants to keep his secret identity. And, especially in season 1, if bad guys found out they usually died.
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Also man Harrison Wells is probably the best example of an evil vigilante. That guy is willing to hang out in a wheelchair all day just so people don't suspect he is a supervillain. That's commitment.
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All of them.Sorry if I missed it. But what abilities does the vigilante lose in social form?
Ah i actually missed that, hyperbole aside though he still has the base ability, HD, Saves, skills, feats (that he still qualifies for), and PC level cash. That is a lot to work with.
Maybe give a universal talent that allows a cohort while in social form. Or just take/give a bonus to the leadership feat.
That is what an Expert (an NPC class) has to work with, plus either gimped Sneak Attack, 1st level casting, or full BaB (bumping him up to Warrior. Wowie.).
That is what an Expert (an NPC class) has to work with, plus either gimped Sneak Attack, 1st level casting, or full BaB (bumping him up to Warrior. Wowie.).
And social graces + renown + startling appearance + loyal aid + frightening appearance + stunning appearance + vengeance strike
That is what an Expert (an NPC class) has to work with, plus either gimped Sneak Attack, 1st level casting, or full BaB (bumping him up to Warrior. Wowie.).And social graces + renown loyal aid
Worthless in this context since we're talking about combat.
startling appearance + frightening appearance + stunning appearance
Worthless in this context because if he were sneaking around ambushing a target, he'd be in Vigilante mode.
vengeance strike
Worthless in ANY context, but especially here where you're spending 5 rounds in combat to get some piddling bonuses and, again, it only works when you're unobserved.
Worthless in this context since we're talking about combat.And social graces + renown loyal aid
*Shrug*, at the very least social graces can help you feint.
startling appearance + frightening appearance + stunning appearanceWorthless in this context because if he were sneaking around ambushing a target, he'd be in Vigilante mode.
Or... he could attack someone in social identity because he doesn't have time to change identities.
vengeance strikeWorthless in ANY context, but especially here where you're spending 5 rounds in combat to get some piddling bonuses and, again, it only works when you're unobserved.
Being unobserved isn't exactly hard for a class with decent skill points.
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Actually, I was wrong. It's not unobserved. It's UNAWARE.
Having an enemy be completely unaware of you is INCREDIBLY difficult.
It doesn't even function if you're invisible or something after they've initially noticed you...they still know you're there (and are thus aware of your presence, if not the exact location).
All the Appearances and Vengeance Strike rely on the enemy being unaware of you, so they don't work unless you're the one initiating combat FROM Stealth.
At least if he had his class abilities he could Hide in Plain Sight (Stalker) or turn invisible (Warlock and Zealot) in the midst of a crowd before anyone saw him in the first place and utilize them that way (once...), but as-is? Not gonna happen except in some EXTREME corner cases that may as well not exist for the frequency they'll appear.
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Sorry if I missed it. But what abilities does the vigilante lose in social form?
He loses the following abilities:
Another Day
Arcane Striker
Arcane Training II
Arcane Training III
Arcane Training IV
Arcane Training V
Arcane Training VI
Armor Skin
Bombs
Bond of Blood
Caster's Defense
Close the Gap
Combat Skill
Concealed Casting
Divine Training II
Divine Training III
Divine Training IV
Divine Training V
Divine Training VI
Domain
Educated Defense
Elemental Battle Armor
Empower Symbol
Environment Weapon
Expose Weakness
Familiar
Favored Maneuver
Fist of the Avenger
Foe Collision
Heavy Training
Hide in Plain Sight
Leave An Opening
Life Bond
Living Shadow
Living Shield
Mad Rush
Mighty Ambush
Mockingbird
Mystic Bolt
Nonlethal Spellcasting
Nothing Can Stop Me
Penance Gaze
Perfect Fall
Perfect Vulnerability
Pull Into Shadows
Revivifying Touch
Rogue Talent
Rooftop Infiltrator
Shadow Jump
Shield of Fury
Signature Spell
Signature Weapon
Silent Dispatch
Social Simulacrum
Sniper
Stalwart
Stern Gaze
Strike The Unseen
Suckerpunch
Surprise Strike
Tattoo Chamber
Throat Jab
Track
Twisting Fear
Unexpected Strike
Unkillable
Up Close And Personal
Vital Punishment
Isn't that a doozy? That's 68 out of the 69 talents we've seen so far. The ONLY talent that can be used while in a social identity is Case The Joint.
This class, as shown currently, possesses 72 class abilities (out of 93 total class abilities) THAT YOU CAN'T EVEN USE HALF THE TIME!
That's literally over 3/4 (~77%) of what the class is offering you! This problem will surely become much more pronounced as they release more talents if something doesn't change.
It NEEDS to change.
Actually, I was wrong. It's not unobserved. It's UNAWARE.
Having an enemy be completely unaware of you is INCREDIBLY difficult.
It doesn't even function if you're invisible or something after they've initially noticed you...they still know you're there (and are thus aware of your presence, if not the exact location).
All the Appearances and Vengeance Strike rely on the enemy being unaware of you, so they don't work unless you're the one initiating combat FROM Stealth.
At least if he had his class abilities he could Hide in Plain Sight (Stalker) or turn invisible (Warlock and Zealot) in the midst of a crowd before anyone saw him in the first place and utilize them that way (once...), but as-is? Not gonna happen except in some EXTREME corner cases that may as well not exist for the frequency they'll appear.
I see that as more of an issue with the abilities themselves than the social identity. I'd prefer those abilities became more usable in general.
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Just so I get this out of the way:
If you're completely happy with how the Vigilante works, don't think anything should change, and feel you need to fight to get everyone to agree with you, then you should go.
You are not helping.
People are expressing concerns, criticisms, ideas, because they are being asked to.
That is how a Playtest works. Find the bugs. Address concerns. Discuss ways to improve.
That's all.
Now, let's work towards a brighter future!
Well said bbt.
Just so I get this out of the way:
If you're completely happy with how the Vigilante works, don't think anything should change, and feel you need to fight to get everyone to agree with you, then you should go.
You are not helping.
People are expressing concerns, criticisms, ideas, because they are being asked to.
That is how a Playtest works. Find the bugs. Address concerns. Discuss ways to improve.
That's all.
Now, let's work towards a brighter future!
Question, who here has the view of "If you're completely happy with how the Vigilante works, don't think anything should change, and feel you need to fight to get everyone to agree with you."?
I'd be amazed if anyone had that perspective.
Just so I get this out of the way:
If you're completely happy with how the Vigilante works, don't think anything should change, and feel you need to fight to get everyone to agree with you, then you should go.
You are not helping.
People are expressing concerns, criticisms, ideas, because they are being asked to.
That is how a Playtest works. Find the bugs. Address concerns. Discuss ways to improve.
That's all.
Now, let's work towards a brighter future!
Question, who here has the view of "If you're completely happy with how the Vigilante works, don't think anything should change, and feel you need to fight to get everyone to agree with you."?
I'd be amazed if anyone had that perspective.
Perhaps no-one, but the point still stands.
That guy we all agree sucks? F&!$ him.
That guy we all agree sucks? F!%% him.
You hit him low, I'll go high
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Sorry if I missed it. But what abilities does the vigilante lose in social form?...
Isn't that a doozy? That's 68 out of the 69 talents we've seen so far. The ONLY talent that can be used while in a social identity is Case The Joint.
This class, as shown currently, possesses 72 class abilities (out of 93 total class abilities) THAT YOU CAN'T EVEN USE HALF THE TIME!
That's literally over 3/4 (~77%) of what the class is offering you! This problem will surely become much more pronounced as they release more talents if something doesn't change.
It NEEDS to change.
Ok, no one loses all of them and I doubt social aspect is half PC play time in many cases, but I get the point. Which of these abilities should be available in both? I'm fine with possibly all of them but think it would be cool to have our social aspect get a few abilities from a different path for his cover identity.
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I also enjoy Arrow, but I like The Flash better(cuz he is my favourite DC superhero if you don't include all the messed up multi-dimensional wizard stuff as superhero stuff which I don't) and I posted some ideas about ways to improve the Vigilante. I think I will start a thread for discussion as I put effort into it =P
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I have some issues with the class, mainly having to do with the way the specializations are set up (some work better than others and some just don't work). But the issues I have there aren't what this thread is about. This thread is about Dual Identity, which I actually don't have issue with conceptually, and that it feels like baggage. I agree that changing between identities, specifically the amount of time it takes, needs work. 5 minutes is a lot of time, which doesn't lend itself to most combats (unless you're running around in your vigilante identity all the time, which is an option because you decide each day which persona you're in). Quick Change is too abrupt, as you've spent twelve levels with a five minute change time, only to suddenly to be able to change as a full-round action. There needs to be something on the middle, possibly at 7th-level.
Batman seems to be the main character most people think of when it comes to this class feature currently, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. But he's far from the only one. My first thoughts when I read over the class was Zorro. Now I haven't read the written stories, my only reference points are of the movies with Douglas Fairbanks, Tyrone Power, and Frank Langella. And in those, Don Diego de la Vega is portrayed as a passionless fop when in fact he is an angry and vengeful outlaw looking to humiliate and ultimately take down the tyrannical oppressors of the pueblo of Los Angeles. No split personality there in the portrayal, just a very marked effort at deception.
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Question, who here has the view of "If you're completely happy with how the Vigilante works, don't think anything should change, and feel you need to fight to get everyone to agree with you."?
I'd be amazed if anyone had that perspective.
I don't really do personal attacks, if I can help it. So, even if this, can be applied directly to someone currently, I would loathe to name them.
See this, as more of a preemptive strike.
I just remember there being "that guy" from other playtests.
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The comments in this thread raise a lot of the issues i have after reading the playtest document. The concept is cool. Having a secret identity is cool, but is that identity worth giving up almost all your class features to use?
I think my main problem with the class is how easy it could be to take 1 level only and then build whatever character you like using other class levels.
You get your cool characterful secret identity but don't lose all your class abilities when in your social persona.
The only trouble you deal with is the RP consequences of using your abilities when in your social persona and getting caught out - 'Hey don't you think that travelling merchant fights like that masked crime fighter/villain'.
I also really hope that Paizo come up with a 2nd round of playtest for this with some adjustments. I already don't have a lot of time within the playtest period to play this class. Time i do get will be level 1 or maybe level 2 PFS play ONLY, and nothing about level 1 makes me want to play the cool concept of the 2 persona stuff in PFS modules when the social persona is a huge risk to the group.
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I think my main problem with the class is how easy it could be to take 1 level only and then build whatever character you like using other class levels.
You get your cool characterful secret identity but don't lose all your class abilities when in your social persona.
Things I'm tempted to do with this new content:
"Take a look at the new social interaction rules and see how they apply to all characters, not just Vigilantes."
"Take a look at what Vigilantes have to do to maintain their secret identities, and see how much of that a character from another class can do."
"Have all of the characters dip 1 level of Vigilante."
"House-Rule: look into recreating the Gestalt rules; alternatively, try to make it a VMC."
"House-Rule: make Dual Identity a feat that anyone can take, if playing in a campaign where it might matter."
"House-Rule: give everyone Dual Identity for free (again, only in campaigns expected to have intrigue and identities matter."
I'm sorry, but nowhere in that list is "Play Vigilante from level 1 to level 20". What's the incentive? Why give Vigilante a second look when I can likely do 70% to 90% of the Vigilante's secret identity stuff while using another class?
Doesn't this whole concept just work better as an addendum to the typical faction/starting attitude rules?
Either the setting allows/demands dual identities, in which case things like disguise, sleight of hand, and bluff (along with role play elements) should suffice, or the class mechanics are forcing this duality on the setting.
Aside from some abilities not being usable when in social mode, there is one other big problem with the whole dual identity thing. Interacting with non-vigilante player characters.
If both Batman and Bruce Wane were always visibly hanging out with the same group of people (aka the other players), but were never seen at the same time then someone would get suspicious. That means that the vigilante's social persona simply can't hang around the rest of the party in most circumstances since it would cause suspicion.
The only way that a vigilante could hang around with a normal party is if he could give all of them their own temporary secret identities.
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If both Batman and Bruce Wane were always visibly hanging out with the same group of people (aka the other players), but were never seen at the same time then someone would get suspicious. That means that the vigilante's social persona simply can't hang around the rest of the party in most circumstances since it would cause suspicion.
Yeah, it would totally be like if Clark Kent was always seen hanging around with Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen. That would totally give away his secret ID!
Do we really want to try to sell Superman as an even remotely realistic figure? The only reason his story works is because the GM keeps forgetting to roll Perception checks for the NPCs. Actually, I'm not sure the GM even knows Perception can counter Disguise at all.