I'm looking to build a PFS Char around the Hurtful trait and I wanted to get the boards input and ideas.
Basic idea is to combine Enforcer, Blade of Mercy (and later Cornugon Smash) with Hurtful.
From an optimization perspective Hurtful seems to favor a build with
a) No dependence on swift actions
b) High to hit
c) Large damage on a single hit
d) High intimidate score
And secondarily
e) Following from b) a solid use of move actions
f) Following from b) strong standard action
g) Get the combo together by level 2 as I'm building for PFS and don't like to suck for multiple scenarios
My initial idea is to start as a Human Gendarme Cavalier of the Cockatrice for two levels to get the combo assembled asap and get that sweet +2 to hit from the order ability but from there on I'm not sure where to go. Cavalier doesn't seem all that interesting in the long run particularly as it's main self buff is swift action dependent. Rogue with shatter defenses seems appealing at least for 4 levels as does Barbarian or bloodrager or some form of fighter for Bonus feats, dawnflower bard might work out nicely (battle herald???).
Anything I'm missing here? Any strong builds you have come across? Any intersting PrCs after multiclassing wildly?
As I do not play PFS I can't tell you what of the following is legal.
The build I'd chose for hurtful would be a half-orc, any full BAB class with orc weapon expertise (thug). This allows you to deal normal damage +1 point of non-lethal. Add in enforcer and you're good to go. Every attack lets you intimidate for 1round.
You have to use a weapon with orc in its name. So orcish double axe, orcish skull ram or torch. (expect table variation with the last one).
Half-orcs get a bonus to intimidate. But if you want in online at level 2 you'd need to take at least 1 level of fighter for the bonus feat.
So I'd suggest:
1: Fighter (Orc weapon expertise + enforcer)
2: Fighter (Intimidating prowess)
3: Barbarian (Power attack)
4: Barbarian
5: Barbarian (hurtful)
Edit:
For archetypes you could use twohanded fighter, mutation fighter or weaponmaster on the fighter part and scarred rager on the barb part. Scarred rager allows 1 round rage cycling to use 1/rage powers every round.
The scarred rager halves the time fatigued from rage to 1 round/round raged. If you only rage 1 round the fatigue lasts 1 round and because of that ends before your next turn.
So you rage when it is your turn and end it at the end of the turn. You are fatigued while it is not your turn but you don't get the drawbacks of rage (AC penalty) either.
By this you can use things like powerful blow every round.
Result: High intimidate (Half-Orc bonus and adds raging strength bonus to intimidate), strong standard action, especially if you take the two-handed fighter (twice raging strength bonus to damage), high to hit and not dependant on swift actions (unless you use powerful blow).
Torch seems pretty strong I must say :)
I have to think about the Orc Weapon expertise versus blade of mercy a bit. I really like Half Orcs and agree they are a strong choice for such a build, however your proposed build is a bit at odds with my point g) get together the combo asap as hurtful comes online by level 5.
An alternative would be a Half orc with something like
Gendarme Cavalier 1 (PA)+ Enforcer
Fighter 1 (Orc Weapon Expertise)
Fighter 2 (Hurtful)
Cavalier 2
Barbarian
LvL 3 Swashbuckler can make an intimidate check to demoralize as a swift action when they hit with a melee weapon through menacing swordplay. Would need to wait till you have dex to damage and would need 13 str for power attack for it to be worth it but that would give a swash an extra attack a round which could be really strong on charges.
If you want the task done by level 2 then You have to take human fighter at level 1. Otherwise your wasting time honestly as then you won't have any functionality. A human fighter means 3 feats to get you online and then you pick your poison from there.
If you choose a Half Orc and stick to blade of mercy fighter2 or Fighter 1/ Cavalier 1 does it at level 2.
Anyways I'm not really seeing where Orc Weapon Expertise is preferable to Blade of Mercy from an optimization perspective. Blade of Mercy gives me either a Greatsword or later Falchion and both are superior to the orc double axe or the weird ram or the torch... And I'm only spending a trait versus a feat. Both options are screwed versus immunity to nonlethal damage and are subpar compared to Cornugon Smash.
LvL 3 Swashbuckler can make an intimidate check to demoralize as a swift action when they hit with a melee weapon through menacing swordplay. Would need to wait till you have dex to damage and would need 13 str for power attack for it to be worth it but that would give a swash an extra attack a round which could be really strong on charges.
That won't work as hurtful itself requires a swift action. Here's the feat text:
Prerequisite(s): Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit(s): When you successfully demoralize an opponent within your melee reach with an Intimidate check, you can make a single melee attack against that creature as a swift action. If your attack fails to damage the target, its shaken condition from being demoralized immediately ends.
Bugger, missed that.
I made an Arcane Bloodrager with Hurtful and Cornugon Smash and Hurtful. As well as Blooded Arcane Strike, Riving Strike, and the Cruel weapon enhancement.
It's a -6 to saves as well as other debuffs. With the feat that allows you to add strength to intimidate you can have an incredibly high intimidate.
Add on: sanctified slayer or sacred huntsman is where you can ditch the judgements, bane is just too good to lose. Adding an animal companion is far compensation for judgements and would make for a flanking buddy to make you more accurate or a tank to hide behind depending on your needs. Suggested domain would be glory/heroism as then you can boost yourself and the party. A decent alternative would be war/tactics as rolling initiative twice for the party as level one is good and a combat feat that is switchable at 8 is respectsble.
I will have to give the inquistor more thought despite the swift action issue.
My biggest problem here however is level 5 is the earliest you will ever get hurtful online and you have spent all your non teamwork feats to do so and dipping is really bad for inquistors.
I think I have to do some math on how high does your intimidate modifier have to be to become reliable cause from a DPR perspective it's rather relevant. I lack the math skill to say from the top of my head head how important however...
I like the orc weapon expertise way because only 1 point of damage needs to be non-lethal. So if the target enemy gets some healing not much is lost. If you do all your damage as non-lethal and other PCs do lethal damage each healing the enemy gets heals double the normal amount because healing always heals lethal AND non-lethal damage.
What's so good about arcane strike/blooded arcane strike/riving strike? Your proposed build (CL4) gets +1 damage and -2 to enemies saves from it plus hits are treated as magic (which your furious weapon should handle at that level) I'm not seeing it.
For a Rogue Build what are peoples thoughts on the following feat:
Schocking Below
Prerequisites: Intimidating Prowess.
Benefit: If you act in the surprise round of a combat, as a free action you can attempt a single Intimidate check to demoralize a creature within 30 feet that can clearly see or hear you.
Can really help you do some considerable damage in the surprise round especially if paired with surprise attack/ability to act in surprise round and or the bandit archetype.
Also I was planning on checking out the bestiary in regards to what kinds of Intimidate DC one might be facing at higher levels. Biggest problem I'm seeing is intimidating thing more than one size category larger than yourself. Anything else you should likely be auto confirming with intimidating prowess and a little trait or magic help.
Orc Weapon Expertise is not PFS legal. An Unarmed build with Boar Style would be nice.
Well that solves that problem...unarmed strikes aren't ever gonna deal the same amount of damage as a greatsword so meh...
Also I was planning on checking out the bestiary in regards to what kinds of Intimidate DC one might be facing at higher levels. Biggest problem I'm seeing is intimidating thing more than one size category larger than yourself. Anything else you should likely be auto confirming with intimidating prowess and a little trait or magic help.
Taunt is a nice Feat
Taunt is a nice Feat
True dat. It probably only makes sense for a rogue build to consider a small race however as you'd be gimping your damage potential with a two handed build. Also not sure how often scenarios serve up opponents that are larger than large... I can't recall any but I haven't played any high level ones.
Edit: After reading up on shatter defenses it looks like it would take two hits to make someone flatfooted. This means that for a Rogue build you really only have the scout ability to make it work. Not sure I really want to go that route then. Think I'm gonna look into barbarian/bloodrager options.
So here are two rough build outlines. The first employs Cavalier and Barbarian. I prefer Barbarian to bloodrager as it has better saves. Bloodrager has the advantage of being able to extend reach which would be nice with combat reflexes.
Human Heart of the Fields
Gendarme Cavalier 2/
1st PA (Cavalier), Enforcer (retrain at 7), Hurtful
2nd Dazzling Display
3rd Intimidating Prowess
4th Superstition
5th Combat Reflexes
6th Reckless Abandon
7th Cornugon smash
8th Rage Power???
9th Improved Critical
10th Surprise Attack
11th ???
The second is a Battle Herald Build with Dawnflower Dervish. Good base saves and skills, Battle Dance is actually a better buff than Rage (albeit only a move action), Spells give some flexibility and HEROISM. However battle Herald doesn't offer too much besides full BAB, performance progression and strong saves.
Human Gendarme Cavalier 2/Dawnflower Dervish Bard 4/Battle Herald 5
STR 18 DEX 12 CON 14 WIS 8 INT 10 CHA 14
Traits: Blade of Mercy (Religion) Dominator (Regional)
1st PA (Cavalier), Enforcer (retrain at 7 to extra performance), Hurtful
2nd Dazzling Display
3rd Combat Reflexes/Intimidating Prowess
4th
5th Furious Focus
6th
7th Cornugon smash
8th
9th Improved Critical
10th
11th ???
Spells: Stuff, Heroism
Equipment: Heavy armor, Bardiche
For what it's worth, a Primal Bloodrager can get barbarian rage powers. Including Superstition, although they wont get the human FCB to increase the saves though. This would mean a 3 point difference on saves. Not insubstantial, but also not the end all be all.
And for what it's worth, you can choose Power Attack and Iron Will as bonus feats from the Arcane Bloodline. And let's be honest, fort saves and will saves are the ones you care about. Reflex saves usually aren't too important beyond avoiding some damage. And that's what wands of CLW are for. The spell longarm can give you increased reach. I'm a super big fan of Arcane just because it can get you haste or displacement every time you start bloodraging.
For the battle herald build, why go STR based? You get free dervish dance from you bard level, and Skill Focus will give you a better overall boost to intimidate than intimidating prowess.
You only need STR 13 to qualify for hurtful.
a) I'd like a reach Weapon.
b) Two handed deals more damage.
c) I can use heavy armor.
What makes you think dex is better here?
However I noticed that the Cockatrice Order ability and Heroism don't stack as both are moral bonuses so this plan actually isn't all that great...
For what it's worth, a Primal Bloodrager can get barbarian rage powers. Including Superstition, although they wont get the human FCB to increase the saves though. This would mean a 3 point difference on saves. Not insubstantial, but also not the end all be all.
And for what it's worth, you can choose Power Attack and Iron Will as bonus feats from the Arcane Bloodline. And let's be honest, fort saves and will saves are the ones you care about. Reflex saves usually aren't too important beyond avoiding some damage. And that's what wands of CLW are for. The spell longarm can give you increased reach. I'm a super big fan of Arcane just because it can get you haste or displacement every time you start bloodraging.
Primalist isn't PFS legal.
I agree on the saves. My main concern is Wil. Multiclassing two martials and having semi decent CON will give me a major headstart on FORT anyhow.
I might be giving bloodrager too little credit as I find myself disliking it for irrational reasons. There's also the option of trading out your first level bloodline power for a familiar and a familiar can also grant a +2 bonus to WIL to the best of my knowledge. I will have to look into this more tomorow especially as familiars also open up Teamwork shenaigans. Also if I do go half orc saves become less of a concern.
Decisions..decisions
It can work in a lot of builds. I came up with one for slayer.
Human Slayer 11
1 Power Attack, Enforcer (retrain into Cornugon Smash at level 6 for 5 pa and 300 gold)
2 Combat Trick: Hurtful
3 Furious Focus
4 Ranger Style, Natural Weapon: Weapon Focus: Greatsword
5 Improved Sunder
6 Ranger Style: Vital Strike
7 Greater Sunder
8 Slow Reactions
9 Improved Critical: Greatsword
10 Opportunist
11 Improved Vital Strike
Nothing fancy just a good use for standard, move and swift actions. Should have a pretty easy time hitting for damage, and lots of skill points are actually useful in PFS. I think it could be stronger in the long run by waiting until level 3 to get Hurtful as everthing tends to die against a two handed power attack in the first couple of levels anyway. It would let you maybe squeeze an extra feat in instead of Slow Reactions, but it is just gravy.
I'm not sure why you want to switch over from Enforcer to Cornugon Smash. Do you expect that you'll meet a lot of foes which are immune to non-lethal damage but not intimidate? The demoralize effect from Enforcer is likely to last longer, and if you crit the foe is also frightened for a round. Is there something I'm missing here? if not then I'd think Enforcer would work great with a falchion or scimitar, Blade of Mercy, and Improved Crit.
If you don't mind being human and the Focused Study option for humans is legal in PFS you might want to consider Skill Focus (Intimidate) as a bonus feat at 1st level instead of taking Intimidating Prowess. I suppose whether that's smart might depend on which classes you choose though. The Unchained version of Intimidating Glare gives you Str instead of Cha on intimidate while you're raging and qualifies you for Terrifying Howl. just some Barbarian ideas there...
On the other hand, an intimidating Paladin might be sort of amusing if you can count on PFS scenarios to have a fair number of Evil foes. They don't have Intimidate as a class skill, but there are traits for that, and honestly the lack of a +3 isn't likely to stop you from hitting the DC to demoralize most foes anyhow. Getting a Cruel amulet (or horseshoe?) for your mount might seem a little out of character for a paragon of lawful goodness, but my Oath of Vengeance PC's favorite weapon was called the Cruel Sword of Justice, and I don't think there's a rule against Paladins using that enchantment.
Especially if you have some other damage boosts like Smite Evil I might consider using a shield since having a high AC would pair nicely with debuffs.
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Don't over look Rogue's Edge from unchained rogue, 5 rogue levels can get you Skill Unlock for Intimidate, very powerful for a demoralizing build. You also get enough sneak attack for sap master.
I have a Cav 4/Rogue 5/Hellknight 2 that has bludgeoneer, enforcer, dazzling display, shatter defense, she doesn't have hurtful yet as the build was already level 11 when Monster Codex came out, but I will grab it at 13th. Probably level in Rogue from here to get that extra 11 dmg per 2 levels.
You can check this profile.
the 4 cav levels are for Horsemaster to have a fully leveled mount (Griffon with monstrous mount, and monstrous mount mastery)
To get the build off as soon as possible:
Human Gendarme Cavalier 2/Unchained Scout, Thug Rogue 6
Level 1: Power Attack (Gendarme), Bludgeoneer, Challenge, Order, Mount
Level 2: Order Ability: Braggart: Dazzling Display
Level 3: Hurtful, Sneak Attack +1d6, Finesse Training (just ignore this), Frightening
Level 4: Evasion, Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Sap Adept
Level 5: Sneak Attack +2d6, Weapon Focus: Choose your bludgeoning weapon of choice, Brutal Beating, Finesse Training
Level 6: Debilitating Injury, Rogue Talent: Strong Impression: Intimidating Prowess , Scout's Charge
Level 7: Sap Master, Rogue's Edge: Intimidate, Sneak Attack +3d6
Level 8: Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick: Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses
Level as you like, 2 more cav levels +horse master gets you an at character level mount, more rogue gives more sneak attack to get 2d6+4 for each 1d6 you actually have with sap master + sap adept,
Wow lots of great ideas here folks! Plenty of food for thought.
It can work in a lot of builds. I came up with one for slayer.
Like the build but I see one glaring weakness: WIL saves. Also why Sunder? Also can you retrain Enforcer to Cornugon Smash? I was always under impression that it had to be a feat you were able to take at level 1?
I'm not sure why you want to switch over from Enforcer to Cornugon Smash. Do you expect that you'll meet a lot of foes which are immune to non-lethal damage but not intimidate? The demoralize effect from Enforcer is likely to last longer, and if you crit the foe is also frightened for a round. Is there something I'm missing here? if not then I'd think Enforcer would work great with a falchion or scimitar, Blade of Mercy, and Improved Crit.
If you don't mind being human and the Focused Study option for humans is legal in PFS you might want to consider Skill Focus (Intimidate) as a bonus feat at 1st level instead of taking Intimidating Prowess. I suppose whether that's smart might depend on which classes you choose though. The Unchained version of Intimidating Glare gives you Str instead of Cha on intimidate while you're raging and qualifies you for Terrifying Howl. just some Barbarian ideas there...
On the Enforcer versus Cornugon Smash issue that's actually a good point.
Skill Focus only beats Intimidating Prowess in a few cases and only at leavel 10 building for PFS I'm looking to optimize for levels 2-11.
Paladin eats way too many swift actions and is thus a no go.
To get the build off as soon as possible:
Human Gendarme Cavalier 2/Unchained Scout, Thug Rogue 6
Level 1: Power Attack (Gendarme), Bludgeoneer, Challenge, Order, Mount
Level 2: Order Ability: Braggart: Dazzling Display
Level 3: Hurtful, Sneak Attack +1d6, Finesse Training (just ignore this), Frightening
Level 4: Evasion, Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Sap Adept
Level 5: Sneak Attack +2d6, Weapon Focus: Choose your bludgeoning weapon of choice, Brutal Beating, Finesse Training
Level 6: Debilitating Injury, Rogue Talent: Strong Impression: Intimidating Prowess , Scout's Charge
Level 7: Sap Master, Rogue's Edge: Intimidate, Sneak Attack +3d6
Level 8: Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick: Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses
Level as you like, 2 more cav levels +horse master gets you an at character level mount, more rogue gives more sneak attack to get 2d6+4 for each 1d6 you actually have with sap master + sap adept,
Wow the Skill Unlock is a really strong option. However there are a number of issues with your build. You can't take combat trick twice not even via Ninja Trick and anyway for PFS Ninja trick is not a legal option for the unchained Rogue. Also as I wrote above Shatter Defense is pretty bad as you need two successful attacks in order get folks flat footed.
Edit: Guess the dual combat trick thing is legal by RAW and that you can actually take ninja tricks just not the ones with Ki... odd ruling tbh.
The idea with Paladin was mostly to have high AC which works well with debuffing and some sort of helper with a Cruel weapon to amplify the debuff from demoralize. Obviously other classes could achieve those goals such as the Cavalier with Horse Master.
If you're worried about having a swift action free very round to use with Hurtful you might want to verify that using intimidate on an already demoralized foe will trigger Hurtful and whether you'll take the +5 penalty on the DC for each subsequent attempt. I think that's how it works, but I'm not sure if that's official.
It probably has other problems than a low will save, it was a quick build.
In PFS specifically sunder is a good maneuver because of the way the campaign handles treasure. If you sunder something it is gone for that adventure but it is still on the chronicle sheets and your gold isn't reduced. Greater Sunder lets you go after CMD instead of AC if they have something to sunder, since the damage carries over once the object is destroyed. Not something to use all the time but a good option.
As I understand it you can't use your first level rebuild to get things you didn't qualify for at the time . You can however use the retraining rules in Ultimate Campaign to retrain feats, that aren't prerequisites to other things, into whatever you currently qualify for by spending both gold and prestige. I suppose it could be overdone, but the added prestige cost makes it so it rarely happens more than once per character in my experience.
As I understand it you can't use your first level rebuild to get things you didn't qualify for at the time . You can however use the retraining rules in Ultimate Campaign to retrain feats, that aren't prerequisites to other things, into whatever you currently qualify for by spending both gold and prestige. I suppose it could be overdone, but the added prestige cost makes it so it rarely happens more than once per character in my experience.
Interesting that would mean a bard or other non Full BAB class could actually get the combo assembled at level 3 with the help of retraining. Cheezy but increases options...
From the way I read intimidate the retry refers to failed intimidate attempts in social situaitions I might be wrong however.
Pondering a number of options currently:
Dipping Unchained Monk 1 into a Bloodrager build cause unchained flurry would be great for the build.
Lore Warden Fighter 2 Arcane Bloodrager X with Moonlight stalker also wondering how I can get the best out of the free familiar.
Going Straight Barbarian (unsure about archetype) cause nothing beats a Barbs precision...
Except maybe the fighter what are good archetypes?
I've been tinkering with this idea a bit and came across another strong option.The painful Smite ability of the Torture domain:
Painful Smite (Su)
Prior to making a melee attack roll, you can choose to convert all damage from that strike into nonlethal damage, adding your Wisdom modifier to the damage. If you succeed in your attack, as a free action you can make an Intimidate check against your target to demoralize the target. You gain a bonus on your Intimidate check equal to the amount of nonlethal damage dealt by the painful smite. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
This seems pretty sweet as it provides a nice damage boost and a massive buff to your intimidate check (making it hard to fail on the demoralize roll). As it's limited to WIS+3 times per day I was inclined to go for a Dwarven cleric to buy extra uses of this ability with the alternate FCB. Problem is the only PFS legal deity to allow this Domain is Venkelvore, a very hungry Goblin Deity. The alternative would be to go Separatist Cleric but that reduces the uses per day and the WIS to damage boost.
So I figured why not try a Dwarven Evangelist of Venkelvore who sings gruesome songs to strike fear in the hearts of his enemies. Was thinking along the lines of a Dwarven Ethnographer who by some odd whimsy of fate has aquired the favor of Venkelvore and now proclaims her greatness in song. I'm thinking that dipping is prolly necesarry to get intimidate as class skill, better weapons and Armor proficiencies.
Dwarf Gendarme Cavalier of the Dragon 1 /Cleric (Evangelsit) of Venkelvore 11
STR 16 (10) DEX 13 (3) CON 14 (2) INT 12 (2) WIS 16 (5) CHA 6 ( -2)
Traits:
Fate’s Favored
Glory of Old
Feats:
1 Power Attack Hurtful
3 Combat Reflexes
5 Weapon Focus/???
7 Open Feat Slot
9 Open Feat Slot
11 Open Feat Slot
Equipment:
+X Dwarven Longhammer
+ X Fullplate
I'd be happy for any feedback on this build. Especially those open feat slots at later levels. Also can folks think of stronger options with the separatist which might not entail a dip?
Optimizing hurtful really means waiting for cornugan smash at level 6/7 on a full BAB class. Anything sooner and you're blowing more feats for a more questionable applicability (immunity to non lethal). Also, the progression of your intimidate bonus slowly outpaces the target number by .5 per level, so the longer you wait to bring it online the less feats/traits you need to blow pumping intimidate for a certain roll.