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So, needing to get back into shape, I decided to try something new (because somehow between backpacking and archery I still gained weight, thanks "Getting Old")...
So, considering I already compete in USPSA Pistol match's and Archery matches I figured "How Hard could sword fighting be?"
Answer: My everything hurts. (In a good way)
So, I'm learning Rapier and Longsword (Which is actually mostly two handed, who knew?) at the local club (Btw: I lived in this city 7 years, and had a club that teach's the use of German Longsword 4 blocks from me this whole time? What?).
For those that don't know, HEMA is Historical European Martial Arts.
So, anyone else ever tried HEMA? So far it's a great workout and a lot of fun!
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So, needing to get back into shape, I decided to try something new (because somehow between backpacking and archery I still gained weight, thanks "Getting Old")...
So, considering I already compete in USPSA Pistol match's and Archery matches I figured "How Hard could sword fighting be?"
Answer: My everything hurts. (In a good way)
So, I'm learning Rapier and Longsword (Which is actually mostly two handed, who knew?) at the local club (Btw: I lived in this city 7 years, and had a club that teach's the use of German Longsword 4 blocks from me this whole time? What?).
For those that don't know, HEMA is Historical European Martial Arts.
So, anyone else ever tried HEMA? So far it's a great workout and a lot of fun!
I haven't done HEMA. But many more years and many more pounds ago than I care to think about I had done collegiate fencing and Society for Creative Anachronism fighting. So I can relate to how surprisingly sore you can get.
Several years ago I went to a Christmas party where some of the kids had got plastic star wars light sabers to play with. After a while some of us adults got sucked into the fun. It had been decades since I had last practiced or even tried to get into a decent en guarde position, and of course I did not think to stretch out before joining in. I was ok that day. The next day a bunch of muscles in my legs informed me that they were on strike. Standing and walking was more or less ok. Just sitting was more or less ok. Driving and trying to get my left leg to work the clutch pedal took every ounce of willpower I had. Ouch.
At any rate, I wish you the best with your endeavors and hope you enjoy it.
Thanks! LoL, I just imagine the image of someone going into en guarde with a light saber!
I guess all my hiking/backpacking has helped, because my legs are a lot less sore than everyone warned me they would be.
One thing that really surprised me is how much a rapier weight's compared to say a fencing foil/epee.
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Agreed. Modern collegiate fencing "weapons" aren't too much more than car antennas with funny handles on them. However, the one time I got to play with a rapier I noticed that while it was heavier than an epee, the balance was similar. So I suspect that at least some epee fencing tactics would transfer over.
I fenced with all three collegiate fencing "weapons" (foil, epee and sabre). When fencing sabre there were certain ways that you did things because that was the what the method of instruction and fencing style called for. But using a car antenna with a funny handle there didn't seem to be much sense to what you were doing. Some time later I got the chance to play with a reproduction Civil War cavalry sabre. All of a sudden the sabre fencing moves I learned fell into place with a blade that had been designed and balanced to be used that way. It felt like the sabre "wanted" to go to the parry positions and a lot of the attacks flowed naturally. Granted that it was a lot heavier than a fencing saber, but that didn't seem to matter too much.
Yeah, it seems that the people who have a sports fencing background have an Easier time picking up the stances and parries than people like me with martial arts backgrounds. It doesn't help that I picked the biggest, heaviest rapier off the rack my first day!
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Yeah, it seems that the people who have a sports fencing background have an Easier time picking up the stances and parries than people like me with martial arts backgrounds. It doesn't help that I picked the biggest, heaviest rapier off the rack my first day!
Chuckle. I remember talking to somebody who was in a different fencing club than I was. He was commenting that they had recently had a lady join their club who had studied karate for several years. They were having a heck of a time trying to get her to stop kicking after she parried. :-)
Unfortunately while it would make sense to try to retrain her that way for collegiate fencing, they may have been doing a disservice to her should she find herself in a nasty real world situation. So my advice is that while you should learn the techniques as they teach them to you, don't be afraid to spend some time practicing "free form" to try to blend the styles a bit before you find yourself in a bad spot. I will leave you with two tales to consider.
The first concerns Portuguese seamen interacting with Japanese samurai during the 1600s. While the Portuguese were not fencing masters, they were good enough to hold their own in a sword fight and were of course practiced in the western style. The Japanese samurai had of course been studying kendo since they were old enough to hold swords. What happened when they came into conflict was that the samurai would wait for the seaman to execute a lunge, and then take the seaman's sword arm off with a katana. The Portuguese answer to that tactical problem was to start carrying a brace of pistols. While the Portuguese solution may have been more effective, I think it made clear who had the better sword technique.
The second anecdote concerns yours truly. Some time after I was in college I undertook a little bit of martial arts training in karate. My sensei was a relatively junior black belt who in addition to teaching his classes was also practicing to continue his advancement in the art. He found out that I had done some fencing and used me as a sparring dummy to practice unarmed self defense against a knife on. So I got a rubber practice knife and was encouraged to try to tag him any way I could. To state the blindingly obvious he used me to wipe the dojo floor with about 90 to 95 percent of the time. But every so often I was able to waltz right through his technique, and had I been using a real blade he would have had it stuck in his chest. The moral of the story? Different techniques have different strengths and weaknesses. Learn the techniques, figure out what their "holes" are, and occasionally play around on your own trying to blend what you know so you can have an advantage should you need one where dojo/fencing rules don't apply and the only thing that counts is being the one who walks away.
I do!
Longsword (Meyer, mainly) and military sabre is what's taught at my club, with occasional forays into things like polearms and tomahawk & bowie knife. I also study (sort of) sword & buckler on my own, since no-one else I know does it, though I do get to spar with them.
I also do 'sports fencing' sabre - I'd agree with Cutlass that having a background in sports fencing makes HEMA easier to get into, but personally, I keep forgetting which one I'm doing and trying to do HEMA stuff with a regular sabre (which really doesn't work), for example.
Strikes me that rapier techniques might work for sports sabre, though, especially those that treat it as a cut & thrust weapon. Worth a go, maybe!
The anecdote about Portuguese sailors vs. Japanese warriors was interesting - I imagine learning to fight against two-handed cutting weapons was very much a thing of the past by that point.
So far, one of my big problems is that I'm "throwing a right jab" when I lunge, so I know how she must have felt! I want to put my arm, shoulder and back into my lunges, which is unnecessary and incorrect (I guess you could say I'm power attacking lol).
My instructor also teaches the Great Sword (Spidone?). He gave a demonstration with it, which I promptly responded with "NOPE. Call in the Archers" lol
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So far, one of my big problems is that I'm "throwing a right jab" when I lunge, so I know how she must have felt! I want to put my arm, shoulder and back into my lunges, which is unnecessary and incorrect (I guess you could say I'm power attacking lol).
My instructor also teaches the Great Sword (Spidone?). He gave a demonstration with it, which I promptly responded with "NOPE. Call in the Archers" lol
Then there's the Indiana Jones/Portuguese Seaman approach :-)
The first concerns Portuguese seamen interacting with Japanese samurai during the 1600s. While the Portuguese were not fencing masters, they were good enough to hold their own in a sword fight and were of course practiced in the western style. The Japanese samurai had of course been studying kendo since they were old enough to hold swords. What happened when they came into conflict was that the samurai would wait for the seaman to execute a lunge, and then take the seaman's sword arm off with a katana. The Portuguese answer to that tactical problem was to start carrying a brace of pistols. While the Portuguese solution may have been more effective, I think it made clear who had the better sword technique.
Interesting story. I find it more plausible than a lot of the weapons-wannabes discussing "who would win, a samurai or Superman?" or, alternatively, the "which weapon is best under which conditions." There was some Youtube video I saw last year sometime that totally dissed the katana for a one-on-one sword duel in favor of the rapier (mostly because of the rapier's reach).
Do you have any source for your story so I can get more details?
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I was in the Society for Creative Anachronism a very long time ago. My source for the story was another SCA member who had a Japanese persona and had researched the topic. But other than my memories of him telling that particular tale I can't source it.
I think that those who would totally dis a katana compared to a rapier don't know much about katanas and kendo. While it is true that a rapier is primarily a thrusting weapon and a katana is used almost exclusively as a slashing weapon, the differences in style and effect are such that there is no easy comparison.
One of the primary differences would be the level of skill of the swordsmen in question. Given that the Portuguese were most likely not fencing masters per se (though good enough for what they usually had to do), they really wouldn't be on par versus a samurai who literally spent his entire life practicing kendo.
Furthermore, the rapier was more of a dueling weapon than a battlefield weapon. The katana is an excellent battlefield weapon. Kendo techniques are such that the fight will likely be settled decisively with one hit.
Whereas a fencer would launch a series of attacks to feel his opponent out, a samurai would be shifting between various guard stances while he looked for an opening. On finding one he would move as hard and fast as he could. No elaborate series of feints or half hearted attacks trying to provoke a reaction. To a fencer, the samurai would appear to be "open" most of the time. But given a lightning fast two handed blade and a style that likely used more distance than a fencer would, the result of a single hit would decide the fight.
Now, if you want a much better "apples to apples" Katana vs. Western sword match up, I would suggest the German Longsword. At the end of the day however, both weapons were designed for use in a totally different environment. A Katana would likely fair poorly against an opponent in plate armor, but is excellent against lighter armored foes.
Actually, for anyone interested, scholagladiatoria on YouTube has some really well made videos talking about the strengths and weaknesses of the two swords (among other things) without a lot of the nonsense.
I've never done Kendo or even handled a katana, so I can't really comment myself. One of our instructors has a 1900s Japanese sword which consists of a katana blade on a sabre hilt, though - that's pretty interesting, if damned heavy...
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I spent a few weeks in a singlestick class before the instructor had to move home.
It was interesting, if completely impractical since no one carries walking sticks any more. :(
Well, some people do, but you'd need a coat with purple fur accents.
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Or you can just buck the trend and walk around with whatever you want to. No need to be a slave to fashion, especially if doing so arguably makes you less safe.
That's my theory and that's what I actually do from time to time. I live in Spokane, WA. Several years ago we had a hellacious snowfall that dumped something like 3.5 feet over one weekend. At the time my job was close enough to my apartment that I could walk back and forth to work. Which was fortunate because after that snowfall I had to.
Long story short, I got myself a walking stick because it made trying to hoof it through the snow and ice without falling on my rump easier. The first one I got was kind of like a ski pole that was of light weight aluminum construction and could be collapsed for moving it around when it wasn't needed. Unfortunately I am a big, heavy guy and one day when I was trying to catch myself after I had tripped going through a snow bank the darn thing bent like a pretzel.
The next one I got, still have, and actually use from time to time is the "African Walking Stick" manufactured by Cold Steel. It is a solid piece of polypropylene plastic that is supposedly unbreakable. While I have doubts on that score, it hasn't failed me. Price was around $30. I also went to a drug store and got a hard rubber cane tip to put on it so it wouldn't get worn down by constantly beating it on the pavement as I walked. I have never had any problems taking it anywhere I wanted to, including going through security check points at the local courthouse, police station and federal building.
One piece of advice for whatever anybody thinks it is worth. Do not get a sword cane. The blade isn't really good enough to do what you're going to want it to do, you won't be able to get it through a security checkpoint, and if God forbid you actually have to use it expect to have all kinds of legal hassles for having a concealed weapon or some such thing. Whereas if all you have is literally just a walking stick those potential legal problems go away.
I agree with the sword cane. Terrible idea that can get you into legal trouble. I can legally carry a concealed weapon, including firearms, and I won't touch a sword cane with a 10 foot pole for legal reasons.
The reminds me, one of the other things I'll be learning is Baton. I really did luck out having a knowledgeable instructor right in town.
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Now, what I would really like to learn to use with the walking stick are jo/short staff techniques. What I understand of single stick is that it is essentially fencing tactics applied to a walking stick. But while that could probably work ok, it doesn't strike me as getting maximum benefit out of a weapon that you can use from either end.
I use a walking stick. They've always been handy for trails and the poor footing you often see on crumbling roadsides. Now that my foots broken in a few places, backs messed up and I've trying to walk actual distances again its pretty neccesary.
I do not understand the classist paranoia about people having melee weapons. Brass knuckles are banned, but I can walk into walmart and get an ak 47 knockoff? Whats wrong with that picture.
I use a walking stick. They've always been handy for trails and the poor footing you often see on crumbling roadsides. Now that my foots broken in a few places, backs messed up and I've trying to walk actual distances again its pretty neccesary.
I do not understand the classist paranoia about people having melee weapons. Brass knuckles are banned, but I can walk into walmart and get an ak 47 knockoff? Whats wrong with that picture.
It always confused me that in this state I could get a permit for carrying a concealed firearm, but can't get a permit to carry bladed weaponry of any kind.
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That varies from state to state with no rhyme or reason. In some states a concealed carry permit does cover knives, but that is obviously not true in all cases. Regardless, the laws concerning knives in general are much more variable and confusing than the laws regarding firearms.
As a for instance, in some states bowie knives are technically illegal. In other states you can have them ... as long as the false edge has not been sharpened. And yet in other areas they don't care.
Well, it's simple in the UK, i.e. the answer is 'No, you can't', unless you have a very good reason - a gardener going to & from work with a machete probably wouldn't get pulled over, for example.
Sword canes are definitely illegal to possess, full stop, as are flick knives/balisongs - not sure about knuckle dusters. You can own as many swords/regular knives as you like, though (s**tty stainless steel katanas aside - those got banned after psychos started buying them and using the in robberies and so on) - just so long as you don't walk about with 'em.
Dexion, do you do rapier & dagger at your class, or is it just rapier on its own?
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One of the really screwy things about new york weapon laws is that brass knuckles are illegal... but if you weld a knife on it its now perfectly legal.
Also: double edged dagger: illegal. Double edge claymore carried in full view? Perfectly legal.
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It always confused me that in this state I could get a permit for carrying a concealed firearm, but can't get a permit to carry bladed weaponry of any kind.I use a walking stick. They've always been handy for trails and the poor footing you often see on crumbling roadsides. Now that my foots broken in a few places, backs messed up and I've trying to walk actual distances again its pretty neccesary.
I do not understand the classist paranoia about people having melee weapons. Brass knuckles are banned, but I can walk into walmart and get an ak 47 knockoff? Whats wrong with that picture.
I suspect it's because we don't have a National Melee Weapon Association fighting for our Second Amendment right to bear arms (of those types). ^_^
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As northern state says "Talk the fist cause the hand is pissed" nothing beats good old fisticuffs :-)
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I suspect it's because we don't have a National Melee Weapon Association fighting for our Second Amendment right to bear arms (of those types). ^_^It always confused me that in this state I could get a permit for carrying a concealed firearm, but can't get a permit to carry bladed weaponry of any kind.I use a walking stick. They've always been handy for trails and the poor footing you often see on crumbling roadsides. Now that my foots broken in a few places, backs messed up and I've trying to walk actual distances again its pretty neccesary.
I do not understand the classist paranoia about people having melee weapons. Brass knuckles are banned, but I can walk into walmart and get an ak 47 knockoff? Whats wrong with that picture.
The details escape me off the top of my head, but I have heard of an organization out to reform/make sensible laws regarding knives.
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The details escape me off the top of my head, but I have heard of an organization out to reform/make sensible laws regarding knives.I suspect it's because we don't have a National Melee Weapon Association fighting for our Second Amendment right to bear arms (of those types). ^_^It always confused me that in this state I could get a permit for carrying a concealed firearm, but can't get a permit to carry bladed weaponry of any kind.I use a walking stick. They've always been handy for trails and the poor footing you often see on crumbling roadsides. Now that my foots broken in a few places, backs messed up and I've trying to walk actual distances again its pretty neccesary.
I do not understand the classist paranoia about people having melee weapons. Brass knuckles are banned, but I can walk into walmart and get an ak 47 knockoff? Whats wrong with that picture.
Excellent. ^_^
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I suspect it's because we don't have a National Melee Weapon Association fighting for our Second Amendment right to bear arms (of those types). ^_^It always confused me that in this state I could get a permit for carrying a concealed firearm, but can't get a permit to carry bladed weaponry of any kind.I use a walking stick. They've always been handy for trails and the poor footing you often see on crumbling roadsides. Now that my foots broken in a few places, backs messed up and I've trying to walk actual distances again its pretty neccesary.
I do not understand the classist paranoia about people having melee weapons. Brass knuckles are banned, but I can walk into walmart and get an ak 47 knockoff? Whats wrong with that picture.
They can have my knife when they ask nicely if they can borrow it.
Excellent. ^_^The details escape me off the top of my head, but I have heard of an organization out to reform/make sensible laws regarding knives.I suspect it's because we don't have a National Melee Weapon Association fighting for our Second Amendment right to bear arms (of those types). ^_^It always confused me that in this state I could get a permit for carrying a concealed firearm, but can't get a permit to carry bladed weaponry of any kind.I use a walking stick. They've always been handy for trails and the poor footing you often see on crumbling roadsides. Now that my foots broken in a few places, backs messed up and I've trying to walk actual distances again its pretty neccesary.
I do not understand the classist paranoia about people having melee weapons. Brass knuckles are banned, but I can walk into walmart and get an ak 47 knockoff? Whats wrong with that picture.
excellent.
As far as I know, California is the only state where flamethrowers are illegal (and possession is only a misdemeanor there). Who needs knives?
Let's face it, sparring with flamethrowers would be a somewhat short-lived (if exciting) hobby - for the participants, at least...
EDIT: Perhaps we need to pressure for duelling law reform as well, though I bet it's still legal in some parts of the US.
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Let's face it, sparring with flamethrowers would be a somewhat short-lived (if exciting) hobby - for the participants, at least...
EDIT: Perhaps we need to pressure for duelling law reform as well, though I bet it's still legal in some parts of the US.
I am not an expert on all laws relating to weapons and dueling throughout all the thousands of different jurisdictions in the U.S.. Howver, I would bet you a decent beer or ale that you are wrong on that last part. About a century plus or so ago the culture was different and dueling might have been tolerated by the populace even if it was technically illegal. In the here and now dueling would be seen as murder and I do not believe that it is actually legal anywhere in this country.
In fact, part of the reasoning behind some of the more screwed up knife/gun laws was an attempt to prevent dueling by making the mere possession of some of the more commonly used weapons illegal. That was exactly what a lot of the laws making bowie knives illegal were all about. More importantly, I don't think that a majority/significant minority of the populace anywhere in this country would actually support bringing dueling back. From my point of view it would be interesting to contemplate as an academic exercise, but it's not something I'd really want to see happen.
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As far as I know, California is the only state where flamethrowers are illegal (and possession is only a misdemeanor there). Who needs knives?
Well, it depends. Opening a letter with a flamethrower would be counterproductive, and I have yet to see a flamethrower with either a bottle opener or a screwdriver attachment.
On a more serious note I think that the reason flamethrowers are not illegal has to do with the inherent difficulty of writing laws that would make them illegal. Any device which can be used to spray a liquid can potentially be used as a flamethrower. All you have to do is fill it with a flammable fluid and ignite the spray. And that would work for anything from a super soaker to a perfume atomizer.
Dexion, do you do rapier & dagger at your class, or is it just rapier on its own?
The basic class is just rapier on it's own. I can always ask about things like Rapier-Dagger or Rapier-Buckler in the future of course. Between Rapier, Longsword, Baton and possibly some Great Sword, I will have more then enough to learn over the next year lol.
Let's face it, sparring with flamethrowers would be a somewhat short-lived (if exciting) hobby - for the participants, at least...
EDIT: Perhaps we need to pressure for duelling law reform as well, though I bet it's still legal in some parts of the US.
I am not an expert on all laws relating to weapons and dueling throughout all the thousands of different jurisdictions in the U.S.. Howver, I would bet you a decent beer or ale that you are wrong on that last part. About a century plus or so ago the culture was different and dueling might have been tolerated by the populace even if it was technically illegal. In the here and now dueling would be seen as murder and I do not believe that it is actually legal anywhere in this country.
In fact, part of the reasoning behind some of the more screwed up knife/gun laws was an attempt to prevent dueling by making the mere possession of some of the more commonly used weapons illegal. That was exactly what a lot of the laws making bowie knives illegal were all about. More importantly, I don't think that a majority/significant minority of the populace anywhere in this country would actually support bringing dueling back. From my point of view it would be interesting to contemplate as an academic exercise, but it's not something I'd really want to see happen.
Very true, and a quick bit of research seems to suggest that you're right, so the beer is yours, should you be in a position to collect it :)
Let's face it, sparring with flamethrowers would be a somewhat short-lived (if exciting) hobby - for the participants, at least...
EDIT: Perhaps we need to pressure for duelling law reform as well, though I bet it's still legal in some parts of the US.
I am not an expert on all laws relating to weapons and dueling throughout all the thousands of different jurisdictions in the U.S.. Howver, I would bet you a decent beer or ale that you are wrong on that last part. About a century plus or so ago the culture was different and dueling might have been tolerated by the populace even if it was technically illegal. In the here and now dueling would be seen as murder and I do not believe that it is actually legal anywhere in this country.
In fact, part of the reasoning behind some of the more screwed up knife/gun laws was an attempt to prevent dueling by making the mere possession of some of the more commonly used weapons illegal. That was exactly what a lot of the laws making bowie knives illegal were all about. More importantly, I don't think that a majority/significant minority of the populace anywhere in this country would actually support bringing dueling back. From my point of view it would be interesting to contemplate as an academic exercise, but it's not something I'd really want to see happen.
Actually, some of the knife laws, particularly the near universal banning of switchblade knives, is targeted at gang violence. Switchblade knives, and balisong (butterfly) knives, or other types of easy to open knives (sometimes called gravity knives, which sounds much cooler than it is) were seen as the weapon of street gangs. Interestingly, historically this is reminiscent of a type of easy opening mechanical knife that Rom were known for.
Interestingly, historically this is reminiscent of a type of easy opening mechanical knife that Rom were known for.
A Navaja?
Just an Update: We started using Longsword's today. It was my first time using them instead of the Rapier... Wow... I can see why the Longsword is one of the most popular HEMA weapons. I'm not sure why, but the Longsword just "feels" more natural to me; where I feel like I'm having to force myself into guards and parries with the Rapier, when someone explains a cut or guard position with the longsword I find myself thinking "Yeah, that makes sense".
Obviously I'm still terrible lol, but at least now it feels more natural! haha
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The rapier is almost all thrust, you're using only 1 arm and holding it out away from your body. It will likely be a while until you get used to it.
Granted that the longsword would be heavier, but what with using both hands on it and holding it closer to your body I don't doubt that it would feel easier. At one time a friend of mine had got a "wall hanger" bastard sword and he let me play with it a bit. I was surprised at the amount of control I had over it and its general ease of use. Regardless, have fun and enjoy. :-)
Oh I am (Having fun that is). I am fortunate to have a really good instructor at the club. From what I understand, He used to teach at the Higgins Armory before it closed down.
This really is great exercise too (Sword-fighting is hard work? Who would have guessed it?). On a related note, I was amazed at how tiring it was to repeatedly parry and trade blows with a longsword running drills. Even though you're deflecting the blow, it still takes a good deal of arm/shoulder strength. Repeated blows really start to wear you down (and in my case, eventually I wasn't fast enough getting back to guard dew to fatigue, and took a hit. Which was totally okay, as that was part of the exercise).
Soo, got a question for HEMA folk.
Is it a good representation of actual combat, and what are the odds of a novelist being able to use it in a work?
Been thinking of doing it for a while now, and there are 3 potential spots around my area.... I don't like how one of them comes across though... They want the kind of people who think those using historical european fighting for escapist fantasy or role-play is incredibly defending, and refers to them as goobers and wieners. Those who view it as a chivalric game or a dueling show are "unworthy of the seriousness of the craft"... *eyetwitch* sounds like a bunch of high school jocks to me.
Soo, got a question for HEMA folk.
Is it a good representation of actual combat, and what are the odds of a novelist being able to use it in a work?
Been thinking of doing it for a while now, and there are 3 potential spots around my area.... I don't like how one of them comes across though... They want the kind of people who think those using historical european fighting for escapist fantasy or role-play is incredibly defending, and refers to them as goobers and wieners. Those who view it as a chivalric game or a dueling show are "unworthy of the seriousness of the craft"... *eyetwitch* sounds like a bunch of high school jocks to me.
Probably an almost even split between
-Dirty filthy impurist!
-Meh, whatever
- FINALLY! Someone doing the research. Whens your book coming out?!?!?
... *cough* Well this is embarrassing. Took almost 2 hours to realize a typo.
"escapist fantasy or role-play is incredibly defending" should be "offending".... Not "defending"... *facepalm*
That said... I don't know about other writers, but I actually enjoy writing out a full fight scene. Unless it's a large-scale battle, then I'll gloss over some details, lol.
Is [HEMA] a good representation of actual combat, and what are the odds of a novelist being able to use it in a work?
I'd be cautious using it in a work, simply because sports fiction (like porn) can be boring and repetitive if you're too detailed.
As an example:
Reacting quickly, Yang the Invincible spun to face his attacker, dropping into Old Tree with Gnarled Roots. Stepping forward quickly into Hungry Tiger Springs On Its Food, he thrust and swept his sword around Green Dragon Swings Its Tail. He then pressed forward, disarming his foe with a quick flourish of The Swallow Pecks the Mud, then jabbed into White Snake Shows Its Tongue. With his blade half an inch from the bandit's neck, he growled menacingly "Which room is the princess in?"
(Yes, those are real moves and realistic fight choreography from a Chinese swordfighting art.)
It gets worse if I use descriptions instead of the poetic move names:
Reacting quickly, Yang turned to his right to face the attacker, stepping forward, dropping, and twisting into a cross-legged stance with the bulk of the weight on his right foot and his left foot tucked safely out of danger behind him. His sword was held by both hands flat and horizontally just above his head, ready both to stab at his opponent or to, as in this instance, block the attacker's blade. Once he had deflected the blade, he rose to his normal fighting stance, stepping forward with his left leg and thrusting the sword forward with a twisting motion of the blade ...
Western fencing combines both problems, as the names aren't that exciting.
Zorro dropped into a guard in seconde position, awaiting the General's move. When the General stepped forward to lunge, he turned slightly to parry in prime, then stepped forward himself, sweeping his sword through a half circular parry at quinte into a thrust in quarte.
Compare this to one of the masters:
The heart of the young Gascon beat as if it would burst through his side--not from fear, God be thanked, he had not the shade of it, but with emulation; he fought like a furious tiger, turning ten times round his adversary, and changing his ground and his guard twenty times. Jussac was, as was then said, a fine blade, and had had much practice; nevertheless it required all his skill to defend himself against an adversary who, active and energetic, departed every instant from received rules, attacking him on all sides at once, and yet parrying like a man who had the greatest respect for his own epidermis.This contest at length exhausted Jussac's patience. Furious at being held in check by one whom he had considered a boy, he became warm and began to make mistakes. D'Artagnan, who though wanting in practice had a sound theory, redoubled his agility. Jussac, anxious to put an end to this, springing forward, aimed a terrible thrust at his adversary, but the latter parried it; and while Jussac was recovering himself, glided like a serpent beneath his blade, and passed his sword through his body. Jussac fell like a dead mass.
or
[T]he two swords were crossed close to the hilts, and as d'Artagnan stood firm, it was his adversary who made the retreating step; but d'Artagnan seized the moment at which, in this movement, the sword of Bernajoux deviated from the line. He freed his weapon, made a lunge, and touched his adversary on the shoulder. D'Artagnan immediately made a step backward and raised his sword; but Bernajoux cried out that it was nothing, and rushing blindly upon him, absolutely spitted himself upon d'Artagnan's sword.
Less can be more.
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It's been over a century, and there's still not been anyone who's managed to better Dumas's fight-scenes.
Chapeau, monsieur!
Soo, got a question for HEMA folk.
Is it a good representation of actual combat, and what are the odds of a novelist being able to use it in a work?
Been thinking of doing it for a while now, and there are 3 potential spots around my area.... I don't like how one of them comes across though... They want the kind of people who think those using historical european fighting for escapist fantasy or role-play is incredibly defending, and refers to them as goobers and wieners. Those who view it as a chivalric game or a dueling show are "unworthy of the seriousness of the craft"... *eyetwitch* sounds like a bunch of high school jocks to me.
I must admit I've never come across that in person - some of the people at my club take part/have taken part in reenactment or LARP, or have to do with TTRPGs. There's a lot of irrational (I think) prejudice against rapiers, though, which are only apparently fit for frilly-shirted perfumed fops. I do not subscribe to this point of view myself.
Some of the Renaissance manuals have some quite poetic/evocative names for the guards (Iron Gate! Strike of Wrath!), but they'd be pretty much incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't already read 'em, and you don't particularly want to have to supply a glossary alongside your super-thrilling climactic fight scene.
Other than that, what Orfamay said.
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The first concerns Portuguese seamen interacting with Japanese samurai during the 1600s. While the Portuguese were not fencing masters, they were good enough to hold their own in a sword fight and were of course practiced in the western style. The Japanese samurai had of course been studying kendo since they were old enough to hold swords. What happened when they came into conflict was that the samurai would wait for the seaman to execute a lunge, and then take the seaman's sword arm off with a katana. The Portuguese answer to that tactical problem was to start carrying a brace of pistols. While the Portuguese solution may have been more effective, I think it made clear who had the better sword technique.
I was interested and I found some writings on line that may lend an interesting take on your stories.
Some snippets.
In fact there are some records in our national historic archive of more than a dozen encounters of Portuguese soldiers and samurais. These encounters are very well described and detailed. All ended with the same result except one.
The samurai was killed in some or wounded (but killing themselves afterwards in shame) the only register of a killed Portuguese soldier was because he had such an amount of sake in his blood that he couldn't stand straight. The Samurai that killed him was killed in the next day in a sword duel with a Portuguese sailor in top condition.
and
Maybe no recorded personal duel per se but the story about the Portuguese being banned from bringing swords (rapiers) ashore during the extensive trading exchanges in Kyushu is documented. The reason for the ban was linked to the fact that the Portuguese originally cut down so many samurai. The local samurai responded by having new swords made which were much lighter than the battle blades they normally carried.
[...]
This design was adopted to allow a swift back-cut like the ones the Portuguese employed so effectively against the samurai with rapiers. Once armed with swords of this style, the samurai turned the tables even on the Portuguese in the second encounter. This is when the ban was finally instituted. The whole trading relationship was threatened. The Japanese needed the guns from the Portuguese and the Portuguese needed the gold from the Japanese. Duels were doing neither side any good at this point so the Portuguese were banned from bringing weapons ashore. Really the only possible options as the Portuguese were on Japanese territory.
Just food for thought.
Soo, got a question for HEMA folk.
Is it a good representation of actual combat, and what are the odds of a novelist being able to use it in a work?
Been thinking of doing it for a while now, and there are 3 potential spots around my area.... I don't like how one of them comes across though... They want the kind of people who think those using historical european fighting for escapist fantasy or role-play is incredibly defending, and refers to them as goobers and wieners. Those who view it as a chivalric game or a dueling show are "unworthy of the seriousness of the craft"... *eyetwitch* sounds like a bunch of high school jocks to me.
I will say that doesn't sound like my club at all. In fact, we are attending a ren-fair next weekend to do demonstrations. Now, I don't think anyone from our club is dressing up, but part of that will be because our protective equipment just doesn't lend itself to that (and I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not willing to trade broken fingers for period dress).
I think that getting to know what you are writing about will help, but as mentioned, you won't be using the same terminology. You will get a "Feel" for what the swords are like.
There's a lot of irrational (I think) prejudice against rapiers, though, which are only apparently fit for frilly-shirted perfumed fops. I do not subscribe to this point of view myself.
Lol, you know, I thought I was going to feel the same way about the Rapier, but I have to say, it actually takes a LOT more strength to manipulate the rapier well than it does the longsword.
From what I have seen so far, In a one on one fight, a good rapier user can hold it's own against lot's of other weapons. To give you an idea, one of the women in class last night was practicing using a rapier vs another student using a 6 foot Spadone Great Sword. She was still landing hits, and that's about as big of a weapon mismatch as I can imagine.