stuffSorry, does it say that DC 10 allows you to jump ten feet, or does it say that DC 10 allows you to jump over ten feet?
If I'm reading it wrong, I will admit to it.
Seriously, if you wanna jump over a ten foot pit, you gotta jump OVER ten feet, it's right there in the advertising.
If we go by the square model, there are four squares involved in a straight line.
1)launching square
2)first square of pit
3)second square of pit
4)landing zoneOr is that wrong too? Have I really been doing it wrong this whole time? My friends are gonna tease me...
what if your feet were 5 feet long, how much would you have to jump across a 10 foot pit?
Good lord, five foot long feet. I would NOT be out adventuring with those. Unless I was a giant. Then I would just raid caravans, not be flitting about like a parkour enthusiast.
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The match is declared a tie. Both contestants having cleared a total distance of 20ft despite utilizing different rules arguments.B didn't clear 20ft, he cleared 15, and stopped 20ft from where he leapt.A also stopped 20ft from where they leapt.
The difference is that A landed at 20ft, while B landed at 15ft.
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The difference is that A landed at 20ft, while B landed at 15ft.The match is declared a tie. Both contestants having cleared a total distance of 20ft despite utilizing different rules arguments.B didn't clear 20ft, he cleared 15, and stopped 20ft from where he leapt.A also stopped 20ft from where they leapt.
This was A's 20ft path:
[STARTING SQUARE] [X] [X] [X] [ENDING SQUARE]
This was B's 20ft path:
[STARTING SQUARE] [PIT] [PIT] [PIT] [ENDING SQUARE]
No difference in distance traveled.
Do you see why this isn't intuitive to me?
We've always gone with DC 10. It's simplified, and it's heroic. Trying to implement realism will get way too complicated.
The match is declared a tie. Both contestants having cleared a total distance of 20ft despite utilizing different rules arguments.B didn't clear 20ft, he cleared 15, and stopped 20ft from where he leapt.A also stopped 20ft from where they leapt.
Not if it was a 20' jump, since the 20' has to be cleared, not landed in to be a 20' jump. If my jump lands me in a square that was 20' of movement from where I started, it could not have been a 20' jump since obviously I was not jumping in that last square. That square was where I was touching the ground, not jumping.
The difference is that A landed at 20ft, while B landed at 15ft.The match is declared a tie. Both contestants having cleared a total distance of 20ft despite utilizing different rules arguments.B didn't clear 20ft, he cleared 15, and stopped 20ft from where he leapt.A also stopped 20ft from where they leapt.
This was A's 20ft path:
[STARTING SQUARE][X][X][X][ENDING SQUARE]
This was B's 20ft path:
[STARTING SQUARE][PIT][PIT][PIT][ENDING SQUARE]
No difference in distance traveled.
Do you see why this isn't intuitive to me?
Here is their model broken into 1ft chuncks
s=start p=pit w=walking e=endspot[s][w][w][p][p][p][p][p][p][p][p][p][p][p][p][p][p][p][w][w][e]
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Thank you. That's what I've been saying all along.For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump...
No it is not. You keep adding the final square of 5ft movement to the 15ft jump and say that they are equal. They are not.
One is 20ft of jump, the other is 15ft of jump and 5ft of movement.
Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
I'm not discussing 1ft increments. Pathfinder doesn't work that way.
I'm strictly sticking to the standardized 5ft square increments.
Well they are. They are saying you traveled 20ft, but only needed to jump 15 of that 20 to clear the 20ft pit. My example is showing what they are saying, and according to the posts the Cheapy linked, how the RAI at least is
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Question for those that keep subtracting 5ft:
[A][X][X][X][B]
Assume each bracket represents a 5ft square.
If a character begins their turn in square [A], and walks to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
If a character begins their turn in square [A], and jumps to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
I'm not discussing 1ft increments. Pathfinder doesn't work that way.
I'm strictly sticking to the standardized 5ft square increments.
it works in 1 foot increments for jumps.
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Thank you. That's what I've been saying all along.For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump...No it is not. You keep adding the final square of 5ft movement to the 15ft jump and say that they are equal. They are not.
One is 20ft of jump, the other is 15ft of jump and 5ft of movement.
Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
I am adding nothing. You are subtracting 5ft from the Acrobatics DC.
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If a character begins their turn in square [A], and walks to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
If a character begins their turn in square [A], and jumps to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
20ft of movement in both cases, and at least a 15ft Acrobatics check in the second.
I have a feeling alex is not going to be convinced anytime soon.Which is understandable. I don't like the idea of having to subtract 5 from the printed DCs in the rulebook.
Jumping diagonals makes this even worse. When, exactly, do you subtract 5ft? Does a 15ft jump turn into a DC 10? or a DC 5?
Convinced of what?
All I'm saying is that a ten foot wide pit is ten feet wide.
Do you want to jump ten feet? Or would you rather travel eleven (or more), to land safely on the other side?
I'm not arguing that DC 10 makes you jump less than ten feet, I'm arguing that you need to travel more than that to CLEAR the pit.
Squares (standard five feet, nothing weird):
1)launch zone
2)pit
3)pit
4)landing zone
You launch from 1, travel ten feet (two squares). You have just successfully jumped ten feet. You are now in square 3.
You did not travel far enough to clear the pit, but if you failed the DC whatever check by four or less, are allowed a DC 20 REF save to not fall in.
Is any part of that wrong?
Question for those that keep subtracting 5ft:
[A][X][X][X][B]
Assume each bracket represents a 5ft square.
If a character begins their turn in square [A], and walks to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
If a character begins their turn in square [A], and jumps to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
It takes 20 movement, and they jumped 20ft. But if they were only jumping over a pit where each of the [X] are then they'd have moved 20ft, and only needed to jump 15ft of the movement. This is supported by the links Cheapy gave
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20ft of movement in both cases, and at least a 15ft Acrobatics check in the second.If a character begins their turn in square [A], and walks to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
If a character begins their turn in square [A], and jumps to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
A 15ft Acrobatics check to clear 20ft of movement?
Do you see now why I have a problem with that?
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20ft of movement in both cases, and at least a 15ft Acrobatics check in the second.If a character begins their turn in square [A], and walks to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
If a character begins their turn in square [A], and jumps to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
A 15ft Acrobatics check to clear 20ft of movement?
Do you see now why I have a problem with that?
No, as I don't know why you are requiring a check to clear the entire movement instead of just the part that needs to be jumped.
If there is a 15ft gap, you need to clear 15ft. You don't have to clear the next 5ft to step into that square.
Does anyone else find it odd that we are all arguing about what is literally a hole in the ground?
Anyone?
Just me?
I'm gonna go get drunk.
NOT DC 10! :P
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I was hoping to illustrate that the pit doesn't matter.
Whether it's open land, or a chasm filled with acid, the DC shouldn't change.
It doesn't. The DC is 15 to jump 15 feet in both cases. You seem to be hung up on the fact that both characters have moved 20ft for some reason.
In the case of the PC that made a 20, he could easily move 25ft if he so choose, as long as he has the movement remaining.
20ft of movement in both cases, and at least a 15ft Acrobatics check in the second.If a character begins their turn in square [A], and walks to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
If a character begins their turn in square [A], and jumps to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
A 15ft Acrobatics check to clear 20ft of movement?
Do you see now why I have a problem with that?
You're "walking" the other 5 ft of the 20ft movement needed to jump a 15ft pit that requires an acrobatics check of 15 to do successfully. You're not needing to clear the entire movement of the move to jump. Have you looked at the links Cheapy posted? In at least one of them SKR gives the example of how it works. Is there something in them that you feel doesn't address your example?
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Jumping measured the distance cleared, not how far you move. It isn't toe-to-toe it is toe-to-heel.Think about it. I'm not wrong here. My example above perfectly shows that. You clear ten feet, sure. Does it actually SAY jumping distance assumes toe to heel? If so, where?*facepalm*
Have you never ever seen a long jump event in person or on TV? Since the rules don't explain how long jump distances are measured, they follow the societal default:
The competitor can initiate the jump from any point behind the foul line; however, the distance measured will always be perpendicular to the foul line to the nearest break in the sand caused by any part of the body or uniform.The "nearest break in the sand" is going to be caused by your heel if you land on your feet. A "long jump" distance is the distance cleared by your entire body. I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated, but it's not a toe-to-toe measurement.
Perhaps now we can put all this DC11 stuff to bed.
So does this mean that if you are a Giant with size 25 feet the DC is higher?
I was hoping to illustrate that the pit doesn't matter.
Whether it's open land, or a chasm filled with acid, the DC shouldn't change.
Apparently, it does. And everyone is fine with that. It's mind boggling.
In your example one person jumped 20ft and the other jumped 15ft and walked 5ft to end at the same spot as the first. Thus A wins the contest. A could also take 10 to jump a 20ft pit and walk ft to end 25ft away from the starting square, while B couldn't with a take 10.
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I agree, jumping a 10 foot pit would require you to travel 15 feet. If you only jumped 10 feet you'd end up IN the pit. Great question and lots of good debate.
Sorry, does it say that DC 10 allows you to jump ten feet, or does it say that DC 10 allows you to jump over ten feet?
If I'm reading it wrong, I will admit to it.
You're error is not understanding how the "long jump" is measured.
Seriously, if you wanna jump over a ten foot pit, you gotta jump OVER ten feet, it's right there in the advertising.Which is exactly what I've done if my jump DC is 10. My toe started at 0 and my heel is 10ft away from where my toe started out. Which means I've completely cleared a 10ft pit when rolling a 10.
Dude...go look at how a long jump is measured in track and field. That is why the table is labeled...and I quote...a "LONG JUMP."
I would much rather look at the rulebook for the game we are currently discussing.
I'm not saying that DC 10 moves you a distance smaller than 10 feet, I'm saying that a ten foot pit is something you want to jump over, not into.
My example with squares is perfect. I love it. I cherish it.
Moving ten feet from launch point results in falling to your doom (maybe-you might get a save, depends on DC).
We allow DC in 1 foot increments, but to illustrate my point, lets use the venerable combat map/five foot square paradigm:
Once again, and I won't mention anymore:
1)launch zone
2)pit
3)pit
4)landing zone/far side
You launch from square one, succeed at your DC 10 jump check and travel two squares. Do you land in 4? No. You land in 3, which is what a DC 10 will get you.
You do not clear the pit, so DC 10 is not the DC.
DC 11+ (Or DC 15 if your GM is a jerk).
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You're "walking" the other 5 ft of the 20ft movement needed to jump a 15ft pit that requires an acrobatics check of 15 to do successfully. You're not needing to clear the entire movement of the move to jump. Have you looked at the links Cheapy posted? In at least one of them SKR gives the example of how it works. Is there something in them that you feel doesn't address your example?20ft of movement in both cases, and at least a 15ft Acrobatics check in the second.If a character begins their turn in square [A], and walks to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
If a character begins their turn in square [A], and jumps to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
A 15ft Acrobatics check to clear 20ft of movement?
Do you see now why I have a problem with that?
I read each of Cheapy's links. I even thanked him for providing them.
If that's how the game designers wish it to work, then so be it. It doesn't mean I have to stop poking holes in their logic.
I must not be presenting my argument clearly enough for everyone to be disagreeing with it.
I keep trying to point out that these two characters have traveled equal distance. 20ft. 4 squares. No difference.
And people keep trying to add variables like "well, they could move farther", when it's irrelevant.
Let's hammer down the basic premise before advancing farther.
Once again, you've convoluted the concept of moving in the air with total movement. I am insane for repeating this, but the DC is only the distance moved in the air...it is not the total distance moved in the jump. If you do not have 20ft of movement, you cannot clear a 15ft pit because you need to move 20ft to get to the square on the other side of the 15ft pit.
And Nefreet is saying that in pathfinder all movement is done in 5ft chuncks, so you have to start from centers of squares and end in centers of squares for each movement mode. Thus a jump over a 15ft pit would require 20ft airtime to succeed and land in the safe square.
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20ft of movement in both cases, and at least a 15ft Acrobatics check in the second.If a character begins their turn in square [A], and walks to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
If a character begins their turn in square [A], and jumps to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
A 15ft Acrobatics check to clear 20ft of movement?
Do you see now why I have a problem with that?
Not really. I'll try to explain another way.
Lets imagine I have a 1' chasm in from of me. I want to move 5' forward. It will take a a DC 1 jump check and 5' of movement. The 5' of movement is required no matter how much of the movement is 'in the air' due to a jump.
Taking it further. I have a 5' chasm in front of me. I want to be in a square on the other side of the chasm. I will have to move 10', because that square is 10' away, but I will only need a DC 5 jump check to jump for 5 feet of that movement (the part where there is a chasm). The square before the chasm starts, and the square after the chasm ends, don't require any jumping for my movement, it is only the square in the middle that requires my jumping.
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I agree, jumping a 10 foot pit would require you to travel 15 feet. If you only jumped 10 feet you'd end up IN the pit. Great question and lots of good debate.Thank you. I was beginning to think I was the only one.
Then why are you disagreeing with me? I have always said that the character has to move past the pit. But he does not have to jump his full movement.
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Once again, you've convoluted the concept of moving in the air with total movement. I am insane for repeating this, but the DC is only the distance moved in the air...it is not the total distance moved in the jump. If you do not have 20ft of movement, you cannot clear a 15ft pit because you need to move 20ft to get to the square on the other side of the 15ft pit.And Nefreet is saying that in pathfinder all movement is done in 5ft chuncks, so you have to start from centers of squares and end in centers of squares for each movement mode. Thus a jump over a 15ft pit would require 20ft airtime to succeed and land in the safe square.
+1
You're "walking" the other 5 ft of the 20ft movement needed to jump a 15ft pit that requires an acrobatics check of 15 to do successfully. You're not needing to clear the entire movement of the move to jump. Have you looked at the links Cheapy posted? In at least one of them SKR gives the example of how it works. Is there something in them that you feel doesn't address your example?20ft of movement in both cases, and at least a 15ft Acrobatics check in the second.If a character begins their turn in square [A], and walks to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
If a character begins their turn in square [A], and jumps to square [B], how much movement did that take them?
A 15ft Acrobatics check to clear 20ft of movement?
Do you see now why I have a problem with that?
I read each of Cheapy's links. I even thanked him for providing them.
If that's how the game designers wish it to work, then so be it. It doesn't mean I have to stop poking holes in their logic.
I must not be presenting my argument clearly enough for everyone to be disagreeing with it.
I keep trying to point out that these two characters have traveled equal distance. 20ft. 4 squares. No difference.
And people keep trying to add variables like "well, they could move farther", when it's irrelevant.
Let's hammer down the basic premise before advancing farther.
So you know how it's supposed to work you're just bringing it up because you don't like it? Is that correct? I had the same view as you did until I read SKR's post of how it's supposed to be done, proof in PFS thread.
Now to your example. Yes both traveled 20ft from their starting point. A did 20ft in the air and landed 20ft from his starting point. B did 15ft in the air to clear the pit and then walked the remaining 5ft of movement needed to end 20ft away.