Monk(Unchained) Flurry of Blows wrote: At 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When making a flurry of blows, the monk can make one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus. This additional attack stacks with the bonus attacks from haste and other similar effects. When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality. He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects). Rapid Shot wrote: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot. Can these two be combined to take 3 attacks with shurikens in a round?
Absolutely, there is nothing preventing this from working.
So that means Flurry of Blows + Rapid Shot + Flurry of Stars + Ki Flurry = 6 shuriken attacks in a round?
thatcheriliff wrote: So that means Flurry of Blows + Rapid Shot + Flurry of Stars + Ki Flurry = 6 shuriken attacks in a round? Now I wanna play Hokutomaru.
The basic flurry doesn't have any wording to stop it from working. Ranged monk archetypes like far strike/zen archer however do add wording to stop it.
I'd rule against using the Zen Archer as a basis
Question is for the unchained monk (which is incompatible with archetypes). Also to answer the OP; it's a bit unclear. I could see it ruled yes under "haste and similar effects," (although it's not since rapid shot and haste stack whereas haste and haste like abilities do not) or no under "you can use multiple weapons, but gain no extra attacks from them." (since it involves getting an extra attack at a penalty). Personally will rule yes.
Re: 6 attacks in 1 rnd... not sure what level that question is meant for. Also assuming by "ki flurry" you meant "spend a point of ki as a swift action to gain an extra attack;" you can't do that and flurry of stars on the same turn since they both require a swift action. And if you're using the new action economy... I really don't know. I could see a GM ruling you can't even use ki to make an extra attack as part of a full attack action since swift actions are now simple actions and it takes all your actions in a round to make a normal flurry. Most GMs will probably consider a flurry + normal ki expenditure to be another valid full attack option. Few might even allow you to do multiple extra ki expenditures, but I wouldn't count on it.
Yes, it works with shurikens.
Trekkie90909 wrote: Question is for the unchained monk (which is incompatible with archetypes). Also to answer the OP; it's a bit unclear. I could see it ruled yes under "haste and similar effects," (although it's not since rapid shot and haste stack whereas haste and haste like abilities do not) or no under "you can use multiple weapons, but gain no extra attacks from them." (since it involves getting an extra attack at a penalty). Personally will rule yes. The rule says you can't gain extra attacks for using multiple weapons, as in two weapon fighting. It does not say you can't get extra attacks for using feats. The extra weapons enable the use of the feat, not the extra attack in and of themselves.
I personally wouldn't permit that, since to me Rapid shot has always been "ranged 2wf".
In any case, if you are going to argue RAW, then I must point that if you are throwing multiple shuriken, you are definetly using multiple weapons. If one wants to be strict with raw, that can be read as a forbiddance against using throwing weapons with a flurry.
Deka's point is 100% correct RAW and also provides its own loophole (monk throwing weapon + blinkback belt).
Shuriken are ammunition, not weapons. A pouch of 50 count as a single weapon. Rapid Shot would not be denied for multiple weapons when using shuriken.
Dekalinder wrote: I personally wouldn't permit that, since to me Rapid shot has always been "ranged 2wf". But it isn't. It's for any ranged weapon.
Dekalinder wrote: In any case, if you are going to argue RAW, then I must point that if you are throwing multiple shuriken, you are definetly using multiple weapons. If one wants to be strict with raw, that can be read as a forbiddance against using throwing weapons with a flurry. Where does it state that it's forbidden to use thrown weapons or multiple weapons in a flurry? It acually states the opposite.
I guess you're refering to "He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so." and mean that you can't use rapid shot with thrown weapons, as that extra shurikens would fall into the restricted category? I could see that.
However, Rapid Shot states "When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon" but it still works with thrown weapons. By that interpretation, throwing multiple shurikens is just using one ranged weapon. I'm not saying that this is the case, only that the restriction in FoB may not be refering to this.
EDIT: They are also noted in many regard as ammunition and not weapons.
@Trekkie90909: That's not a loophole. They also follow the ammunition rules after thrown, not weapons (meaning they may be destroyed).
Blinkback belt + a single monk throwing weapon allows you to make all your attacks with a single weapon; this allows you to ignore all the text dealing with multiple weapons such that rapid shot becomes (in that specific context) legal for use with unchained flurry of blows. Since this is not otherwise legal (RAW) it is an exploit. I think you're confusing me with the posters about shuriken builds.
Re Imbicatus: Shuriken wrote: Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown. A single shuriken is a throwing weapon. As such making a flurry with shuriken means you use the multiple weapon clause meaning rapid shot is not legal with them (RAW).
Nothing in the monks flurry of blows prevents him from attacking with multiple weapons he simply does not gain any extra attacks from the second weapon. The shuriken is a monk weapon so obviously he can flurry with a shuriken. Everyone seems to agree with that at this point.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): At 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When making a flurry of blows, the monk can make one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus. This additional attack stacks with the bonus attacks from haste and other similar effects. When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality. He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects). At 11th level, a monk can make an additional attack at his highest base attack bonus whenever he makes a flurry of blows. This stacks with the first attack from this ability and additional attacks from haste and similar effects.
The question is does rapid shot work with flurry? I think that it does because the source of the extra attack is the feat, not the fact you are using two weapons. Anyone can attack with two weapons even if they don’t have the two weapon fighting feat. The feat simply reduces the penalty. With rapid shot it does not matter how many extra weapons you have if you don’t have the feat. The real reason the monk cannot combine two weapon fighting and flurry of blows Unarmed Strike.
Unarmed Strike (Ex): At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks can be with fists, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk can make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk can apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes. A monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, although he can choose to deal nonlethal damage with no penalty on his attack roll. He can make this choice while grappling as well.
Since the monk takes no penalties for attacking with an offhand weapon they would get all the extra attacks at full BAB. When they pick up improved and greater two weapon fighting the extra attacks from those would also be at full BAB. Considering the unchained monk is now a full BAB class that would be completely overpowering. A 20th level monk with haste and spending a Ki point could get 10 attacks in a round with 7 of them at full BAB. This is the reason the monk gains no extra attacks from two weapon fighting.
Additional attacks from using multiple weapons means using TWF rules elements to get extra attacks. Anyone, with at least two iterative attacks, can attack with more than one weapon. If you have a Longsword in one hand and a Hand Axe in the other, you can take your +6 attack with the Longsword and the +1 attack with the Hand Axe. This is not TWF and neither of these are "additional" attacks from wielding multiple weapons. Even if you are wielding a pair of Daggers and lack Quick Draw, you can throw one dagger as your +6 attack and the other as your +1 attack just fine; it isn't TWF and it isn't an "additional attack" from wielding multiple weapons. Rapid Shot is not TWF for ranged because you can still TWF with thrown weapons and get the benefit of Rapid Shot; thus the extra attack from Rapid Shot is not an "additional attack" from wielding multiple weapons. Only additional attacks granted because you are using TWF rules elements are "additional attacks from using multiple weapons". So the Monk in question can use Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows, Flurry of Stars, and even throw in Haste, and, at BAB+6, he nets 2 iterative attacks, 1 bonus attack from FoB, 1 bonus attack and -2 attack penalty from Rapid Shot, 2 bonus attacks and -2 attack penalty from FoS, and 1 bonus attack from Haste for a net attack routine of +2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/-3 before other attack bonuses are applied. The additional attack from using a Ki point wouldn't work because that must be an Unarmed Strike and we're going for a storm of shuriken here.
Trekkie90909 wrote: Blinkback belt + a single monk throwing weapon allows you to make all your attacks with a single weapon; this allows you to ignore all the text dealing with multiple weapons such that rapid shot becomes (in that specific context) legal for use with unchained flurry of blows. Since this is not otherwise legal (RAW) it is an exploit. I think you're confusing me with the posters about shuriken builds.
Re Imbicatus: Shuriken wrote: Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown. A single shuriken is a throwing weapon. As such making a flurry with shuriken means you use the multiple weapon clause meaning rapid shot is not legal with them (RAW).
This depends on reading the "a" in that sentence as exclusive, it could just as easily be read as "with at least one", which from a strict computational logic perspective is more generally correct.
Triune wrote: Trekkie90909 wrote: Blinkback belt + a single monk throwing weapon allows you to make all your attacks with a single weapon; this allows you to ignore all the text dealing with multiple weapons such that rapid shot becomes (in that specific context) legal for use with unchained flurry of blows. Since this is not otherwise legal (RAW) it is an exploit. I think you're confusing me with the posters about shuriken builds.
Re Imbicatus: Shuriken wrote: Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown. A single shuriken is a throwing weapon. As such making a flurry with shuriken means you use the multiple weapon clause meaning rapid shot is not legal with them (RAW).
This depends on reading the "a" in that sentence as exclusive, it could just as easily be read as "with at least one", which from a strict computational logic perspective is more generally correct. "Weapon" (i.e. an individual shuriken) is stipulated in all the language, not "type of weapon" (i.e. an arbitrary number of shuriken greater than or equal to one). Nice try though.
I really wish that they'd write these dang abilities more clearly. Like instead of
This additional attack stacks with the bonus attacks from haste and other similar effects. ...
He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects)
we could have
A monk cannot add natural attacks, use Two-Weapon Fighting, or gain any extra attacks from any source besides Haste and Haste like effects.
I feel it's much clearer than what we have. If that's what the were meaning.
If only there was a way to have a harrow deck treated as a monk weapon...
Cyrad wrote: If only there was a way to have a harrow deck treated as a monk weapon... And make the cards blow up when they hit a target. [Coupled with a metal quarterstaff for melee when required.] Got to remember the Cajun/Creole? accent too.
Trekkie90909 wrote: Triune wrote: Trekkie90909 wrote: Blinkback belt + a single monk throwing weapon allows you to make all your attacks with a single weapon; this allows you to ignore all the text dealing with multiple weapons such that rapid shot becomes (in that specific context) legal for use with unchained flurry of blows. Since this is not otherwise legal (RAW) it is an exploit. I think you're confusing me with the posters about shuriken builds.
Re Imbicatus: Shuriken wrote: Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown. A single shuriken is a throwing weapon. As such making a flurry with shuriken means you use the multiple weapon clause meaning rapid shot is not legal with them (RAW).
This depends on reading the "a" in that sentence as exclusive, it could just as easily be read as "with at least one", which from a strict computational logic perspective is more generally correct. "Weapon" (i.e. an individual shuriken) is stipulated in all the language, not "type of weapon" (i.e. an arbitrary number of shuriken greater than or equal to one). Nice try though. That is not at all what I'm saying. Think of it more like this.
Conditional: Made a full attack with (as in including) a ranged weapon.
As opposed to
Conditional: Made a full attack with a (as in a single) ranged weapon.
The "a" here is ambiguous as to its exclusivity, so the default interpretation is generally the least restrictive, especially in conditionals. It's akin to confusion over an exclusive or.
This question might add more clarity: Does your car rest on a tire? Yes, it also rests on three more. Or no, it doesn't rest on a solitary tire.
Again that's why they have a whole sentence saying "He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows."
Hello combat rules, do you wish to say something?
Combat Rules wrote: Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action. This in not the only time shurikens are noted as ammunition and not a single weapon.
And I'm really not sure that Rapid Shot normally can't be used with thrown weapons (take a look at Quick Draw as well).
It's incredibly dumb to think that throwing the same shuriken multiple times is any different from throwing multiple shurikens. How is it that the Rapid Shot feat would allow someone to throw one specific shuriken one more time but not a different one?
This is another clear case where RAW is flawed and can not be used.
kyrt-ryder wrote: Cyrad wrote: If only there was a way to have a harrow deck treated as a monk weapon... And make the cards blow up when they hit a target. [Coupled with a metal quarterstaff for melee when required.] Got to remember the Cajun/Creole? accent too. *Rolls eyes* Yes, because every person that wants to play a character that can throw cards wants to be Gambit, just as every person that wants to play a character with super strength wants to be Superman.
I didn't say every person, it's just a personal dream :P
Rub-Eta wrote: Hello combat rules, do you wish to say something?
Combat Rules wrote: Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action. This in not the only time shurikens are noted as ammunition and not a single weapon.
And I'm really not sure that Rapid Shot normally can't be used with thrown weapons (take a look at Quick Draw as well).
It's incredibly dumb to think that throwing the same shuriken multiple times is any different from throwing multiple shurikens. How is it that the Rapid Shot feat would allow someone to throw one specific shuriken one more time but not a different one?
This is another clear case where RAW is flawed and can not be used.
Again no one is saying that shuriken work; you'd need a different thrown monk weapon and while RAW there is a difference people are of course free to houserule. I know I would allow people to combine rapid shot and FoB and while I have reasons for that decision it is ultimately arbitrary. This on the other hand is the rules forum, so until such time as a FAQ is released or a better interpretation is offered we just have the rules as written.
@Cyrad I'd go with the Hulk in that analogy; it seems more in keeping with the barbarian at the table.
Triune wrote: Absolutely, there is nothing preventing this from working. Except the line in unchained flurry of blows that says you can't gain additional attacks from other sources (except haste).
I can't quote the line because I'm at work, but the unchained monk literally states that other affects that grant you additional attacks (except haste) don't work.
Alexander Augunas wrote: Triune wrote: Absolutely, there is nothing preventing this from working. Except the line in unchained flurry of blows that says you can't gain additional attacks from other sources (except haste).
I can't quote the line because I'm at work, but the unchained monk literally states that other affects that grant you additional attacks (except haste) don't work. As quoted previously in the thread, that is not what it says. It says you don't get extra attacks from using multiple weapons.
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First, a pouch of shuriken aren't a ranged launcher like a Bow or a Sling. Shuriken are thrown weapons just like any other thrown weapon with the explicit exception that they are drawn as ammo rather than needing to be drawn as a weapon. Normally, it's a move action to draw a weapon. With Quickdraw, you can draw a weapon as a free action. So, at BAB+6, you can throw a dagger as a standard then draw one as a move, or you can draw one as a free action with quickdraw and throw the second dagger as your BAB+1 attack, or you can start with a dagger in each hand and throw one as BAB+6 and the other as BAB+1. With shuriken, you can draw them as ammo, but they don't require any launcher weapon; they are thrown weapons and follow all applicable rules for thrown weapons except for what is stated otherwise.
Second;
d20 wrote: Flurry of Blows (Ex): At 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When making a flurry of blows, the monk can make one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus. This additional attack stacks with the bonus attacks from haste and other similar effects. When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality. He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects). At 11th level, a monk can make an additional attack at his highest base attack bonus whenever he makes a flurry of blows. This stacks with the first attack from this ability and additional attacks from haste and similar effects. Flurry only denies gaining extra attacks from using multiple weapons (effectively, using TWF rules). If you are not using TWF rules to gain your extra attacks, then the extra attacks are permissible.
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