Multiple Companions that are more than fully levelled: Do you still have to stack levels?

[Covert Operator]

If you have more than one animal-companion-granting class and you choose the same companion (i.e. elephant) for both classes, the levels stack automatically. If you have one class that grants two animal companions or two familiars, what happens? Do you get a really high-level companion? Do you get two companions?

A Sorcerer of the Serpentine bloodline with the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype can get two familiars from the same class (with Boon Companion, both full level).
An Inquisitor of the Animal domain with the Sacred Huntsmaster archetype can get two animal companions from the same class (with Boon Companion, both full level).

Now here's where we get to the crazy part:
Half-Elf Cavalier 4 / Oracle 6 [Nature] / Inquisitor 10 [Saurian or Scalykind domain] (Sacred Huntmaster)
FEATS: Horse Master, Huntmaster (Horse), and Boon Companion
Cavalier Mount at effective level 21 (must be Horse/Camel)
Oracle [Nature] / Inquisitor (Sacred Huntmaster) Animal Companion at effective level 20 (must be Horse/Camel)
Saurian or Scalykind Animal Companion at effective level 12 (must be Dinosaur or Viper/Constrictor)

[Covert Operator]

How come nobody cares about this issue?

I haven't even got any FAQ clicks!

[StormHunter]

Clarifying question - If multiple classes with stackable animal companion levels result in an animal companion with greater than 20 levels, is the animal companion capped at the 20th level of progression or will it progress further by extrapolating the Animal Companion table of progression?

[Cap. Darling]

No stacking up to more than your level as far as i can see.

[Rhaleroad]

Can only ever have 1 familiar, so that solves first issue. Boon companion maxes any companion at your character level, there is no way for it to exceed yours. If both classes that grant companion has the same list then the levels stack and you do not gain an extra companion. They only way to get extra companions is with archtypes, and again you can use boon companion on them all, but they still max out at your character level. Pretty sure that unless you are some form of packmaster you are also limited too one companion, but then I have seen a companion taken, then a class that gains a mount, that acts as a companion work.

[buckledup]

just to clarify, boon companion cannot raise your pet beyond max char. lvl, but the huntmaster feat and the alternate racial bonus for certain oracles increasing levels of revelations (ACs in this case) CAN exceed max char lvl (assuming the AC is currently max lvl).

Is that correct? Neither has any wording that includes max levels, but maybe there is something im missing.

also, as a personal curiosity does anyone know whether a beastmaster ranger taking boon companion at lvl 1 gets his animal companion at lvl 1?

beastmaster's first two class features give NO lvl requirements and both replace original class features. i can't find any info regarding this scenario, and with no lvl requirements on a class feature that replaces something else i assume you treat it as a new class feature. as such, as soon as the AC is of a playable level it should be valid.

what say you?

[Covert Operator]

buckledup: Yes you would get your AC[s] at first level if you took Boon Companion. That archetype looks like a straight upgrade for Animal Companion rangers.

[Covert Operator]

Rhaleroad wrote:

Can only ever have 1 familiar, so that solves first issue.

I refute that statement, and I have looked in to it a lot.

The only thing it says about having one familiar is this:

Familiars wrote:

Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.

RAI you can only have one familiar, obvs, but RAW you can have multiple by getting them from the same class. (The only other way to get two familiars from the same class is a Carnivalist Rogue with the Familiar advanced talent).

Even if you ban this, think of the alternative: a level 20 Tattooed Sorc with the Serpentine bloodline who takes Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) has a familiar at an effective wizard level of 20+18+17 = 55.

[Covert Operator]

Stormhunter: Animal Companion effective level is not actually capped at your level. A PF worker (I forget who) was presented the whole 'Oracle can get a lvl*1.5 animal companion while everyone else gets lvl*1!' dilemma, and decided that your AC cannot have more HD than your HD+1.

[Covert Operator]

As for class levels stacking for ACs, here's a thing:

Boon Companion wrote:

Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.

Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class feature.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were 4 levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar that has received this benefit, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.

This feat was built with a contingency in case you had more than one AC or Familiar.

About the clarification that effective levels stack: They do, but only if you choose the same companion for both class features. The wording of that clarification implicitly assumes that you don't have multiple fully-leveled ACs.

[Samasboy1]

Covert Operator wrote:

RAI you can only have one familiar, obvs, but RAW you can have multiple by getting them from the same class. (The only other way to get two familiars from the same class is a Carnivalist Rogue with the Familiar advanced talent).

Even if you ban this, think of the alternative: a level 20 Tattooed Sorc with the Serpentine bloodline who takes Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) has a familiar at an effective wizard level of 20+18+17 = 55.

But what does having a familiar at effective wizard level 55 do for you more than at effective wizard level 20.....the table only goes up to 20.

You could rule they continue to increase Nat Armor and Int (at +1 per 2 levels), but officially there is no benefit after effective wizard level 20.

I would also question what happens if you have two classes that grant specific, and different, familiars.

[Covert Operator]

It's not great to have an effective level 55 familiar from an optimization perspective, but it is something that breaks all intended restrictions. Treating the three sources of familiars as separate is much more intuitive from a practical standpoint.

As I've said before, I still think the levels don't stack. Two of these familiars clearly don't stack via RAW because they are the same class, while the third, Eldritch Heritage, says it works "regardless of class level."

[StormHunter]

Covert Operator wrote:

Stormhunter: Animal Companion effective level is not actually capped at your level. A PF worker (I forget who) was presented the whole 'Oracle can get a lvl*1.5 animal companion while everyone else gets lvl*1!' dilemma, and decided that your AC cannot have more HD than your HD+1.

Thank you - I am aware of the Character Level (HD) limit - my question still stands, but perhaps a specific random example will make it clearer just what I was asking.

eg. Cav 10 (with Horsemaster feat) and (for whatever reason) 10+ levels in another class/es (leaving aside combinations of stackable animal companion classes) will result in a Character Level of 20+
Question is: What level progression is the Cavalier's Mount AC? Capped at 20 (highest the Animal Companion progression table goes to) or 20+ (extrapolating further progression on this table to match the Character Level, as per Horse Master feat, of 20+)?

[Covert Operator]

I don't really understand your query, Stormhunter.
1. Is it Cavalier 10 / [other animal companion class] 10
2. or is it Cavalier 10 / [no animal companion class] 10?
I'll answer assuming option one.

The Horse Master feat says "the abilities of your mount are calculated based off of your character level, not your class level" (paraphrased).
So any class levels (in any class, not just cavalier) would not apply to your Cavalier mount, which is calculated based off of Character Level.
You would get a second (lower level) Animal Companion, based off of your second class, and a fully-leveled animal companion, based off of your character level.

[Claxon]

IIRC correctly, there's an FAQ floating around here someplace, which clarifies that an animal companion can't exceed your level ever.

Including using oracle favored class bonus to enhance it. It was actually because of the oracle favored class bonus issue being abused in PFS that the FAQ was created.

Edit: Apparently it's animal companion's HD max = your HD +1.

Quote:

Cavalier: Do animal companion levels from the druid class stack with cavalier mount levels?

If the animal is on the cavalier mount list and on the list of animal companions for your other class, your cavalier and druid levels stack to determine the animal's abilities. If the animal is not on the cavalier mount list, the druid levels do not stack and you must have different animals (one an animal companion, one a cavalier mount).
For example, if you are Medium druid and you choose a horse companion, levels in cavalier stack to determine the horse's abilities. If you are a Medium druid and you choose a bird companion, levels in cavalier do not stack to determine the bird's abilities, and you must choose a second creature to be your mount (or abandon the bird and select an animal companion you can use as a mount).
This same answer applies to multiclassed cavalier/rangers.
(Note that the design team discourages players from having more than one companion creature at a time, as those creatures tend to be much weaker than a single creature affected by these stacking rules, and add to the bookkeeping for playing that character.)

We also have the above FAQ. Which seems to imply that if an animal companion if available on both class list the levels must stack.

[Covert Operator]

Thanks for quoting that! It's what I was referring to earlier.

Reading it, it looks written assuming your AC effective level doesn't exceed your character level with stacking, but that can be made just not true with the above mentioned build (Cavalier with Horse Master / other animal companion class actually defies it).
That's I started this thread: to get a FAQ update for myself and everyone else who is curious.
In case you were wondering, I've looked in to creating multiple-animal-companion/familiar character at least 3 times, and I've made some BEAST stuff using the interpretation that the levels don't stack if you've already got fully-leveled things. I haven't played any because I don't want my turns to take FOREVER, but it's still a good optimization challenge.

[StormHunter]

Covert Operator wrote:

I don't really understand your query, Stormhunter.

1. Is it Cavalier 10 / [other animal companion class] 10
2. or is it Cavalier 10 / [no animal companion class] 10?
I'll answer assuming option one.

The Horse Master feat says "the abilities of your mount are calculated based off of your character level, not your class level" (paraphrased).
So any class levels (in any class, not just cavalier) would not apply to your Cavalier mount, which is calculated based off of Character Level.
You would get a second (lower level) Animal Companion, based off of your second class, and a fully-leveled animal companion, based off of your character level.

:) How about I just withdraw my hypothetical which related to any combination of the above for a single AC (providing numbers totalled more than 20)and was meant to be focussed entirely on the progression chart for Animal Companions (which stops at 20).

I am well aware of what is RAW, how animal companion stacking works and how Horse Master works. What I don't know is whether the developers intended for the Animal Progression chart to continue past 20 levels of progression so it would match any of the 20+ Character (not Class) Level Animal Companions that later rule books have enabled.

Apologies for hijacking your original queries and apparently muddying the issue. Intent was to single out one instant only of your multiple query.

[Covert Operator]

StormHunter:
No apologies needed. It's just the FAQ clicks I want from ya. :)
This topic would be a good second question to get FAQ clicks on too, I think, so I'll make my real answer in the next post for the less dev confusion.

[StormHunter]

Covert Operator:
Yep, you're right. It probably is best as a separate FAQ topic.
The FAQ was duly clicked :)
Hope there will be an answer.

[Covert Operator]

It is possible to get an Animal Companion, through various means, which has a higher Effective Druid Level than 20. Does the animal companion stop gaining more abilities once it passes Effective Druid Level 20, or do you extrapolate the table (method described below)?

The first few sentences are (when it's not flavour text) a good indication of what part of the content is the highest importance, and what is supportive of that; as introductory sentences should be.

Animal Companions wrote:

An animal companion's abilities are determined by the druid's level and its animal racial traits. Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics determines many of the base statistics of the animal companion. They remain creatures of the animal type for purposes of determining which spells can affect them.

This tells us that the Table is the main part of this section, and with a quick look downwards, it seems that all the entries below are describing and clarifying the table.

However, several of the entries also provide a formula for how that ability progresses:
Class Level: only shown on table.
HD: only shown on table.
BAB: An animal companion's base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal's HD. So, an Animal Companion has 3/4 BAB.
Saves: An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves. Therefore, it has a bad Will save.
Feats: only shown on table.
Natural AC, Str/Dex bonus: only shown on table.
Bonus Tricks: only shown on table.

After reviewing the data, I find that a few of the traits of the Animal Companion do have formulas for advancement that could be applied infinitely. However, these formulas are based off of the Animal Companion's HD, not the master's Effective Druid Level. The HD doesn't scale off of Effective Druid Level, so nothing else scales either.

Verdict: The Animal Companion doesn't progress past Effective Druid Level 20.