I'm a fan of the uncommon races, but one thing that bothers me heavily is the seeming bias towards "Good" races, when it comes to stats. A good example of this is between Tiefling/Aasimar. They're essentially mirrors of eachother, yet Tieflings have a -2 on Charisma (For being "Strange and unnerving" despite the fact that they can vary wildly in appearance) Whereas Aasimar have no penalties, and in some books outside of the CRB can have all sorts of different stats.
Orcs suffer a bit too, three stats with -2? That's insane, even for +4 strength. It seems to restrict orcs to cannon fodder baddies, and prevents PC capability, for no reason. If orcs have societies, surely somebody among their ranks is using one of those three stats.
I understand of course it can all be homebrewed out, but is there a real reason for this seeming bias towards the "good" or "pretty" races?
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Well, for orcs, goblins, and dwarves, you can possibly blame their ancestry in the underdark in setting.
With bound mad gods, toxic waste, mutagenic energies, commonly encountered genetic bottlenecks, poor food situation, etc. etc.- it is not hard to see why some races come out at least a little twisted and crazy.
And yes, I include dwarves in that. Just comparing Torag's paladin code with the typical paladin code...yeah, they sometimes had to draw very hard lines to survive, and that still affects them.
So, to some extent, the greater prevalence of these penalties in 'evil' races is often due to the fact that designers (particularly Paizo, who hold a surprising degree of postcolonial perspective, as seen with the description for lizard folk) do not just write off a race as 'mostly evil' without giving some good reason. And typically 'twisted by dark magics/whatever' gives a good reason.
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Tieflings are better than aasimars overall if you include blood of fiends and blood of angels. The tail is incredibly useful too.
As for orcs, starting with a 22 STR is worth two -2s. And a 22 str barbarian is anything but canon fodder.
The only race that really gets horrible stats are kobolds. But i still can't wait to play one with the material in kobolds of golarion. If only it were PFS legal.
I cant allow myself to min-max so hard that I have a level 1 Orc with 22 Strength, a 7 INT, 7 WIS, 7 CHA character is just cheating, to me.
Kobolds are another example of what I mean, though.
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The difference between Tieflings and Aasimars as mirrors of one another isn't just that the Tiefling gets a racial -2 to one stat that the Aasimar doesn't, because in return for that -2 tieflings get one extra racial trait: Fiendish Sorcery. This brings them back up on par for sorcerer abilities, although they're still behind on charisma-related checks. And if you're not a sorcerer, then grab yourself a useful tail.
Tieflings may not get the straight stats, but the variety of alternate racials are pretty great. Prehensile Tail and Maw or Claw are great, and open up some powerful options in combination with class abilities.
As for orcs, starting with a 22 STR is worth two -2s.
And a run-of-the-mill Human Barbarian, just as min/maxed as the above Orc, would start with a 20 STR, with no -2s.
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As for orcs, starting with a 22 STR is worth two -2s.And a run-of-the-mill Human Barbarian, just as min/maxed as the above Orc, would start with a 20 STR, with no -2s.
Right-- its really rough, but at least there is a reason for the Orc to get it that's justifiable by game balance. . .
For Kobolds the answer is just "Well these guys are weaker than other PC races" and they get no possible advantage to overcome it with.
I'm working on a third party release with alternate Orcs who get normal style PC race stats so that people who want to play Orc witches, sorcerers, or you know anything besides Barbarian without being ridiculously penalized.
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One could argue that the Good power of an Aasimar helps and guides them, while the evil power of a Tiefling attempts to dominate and destroy them. If a force of evil were trying to consume me from within; I could see it damaging my sense of self over time.
Conversely, if a holy force was trying to uplift me and grant me strength, I could see my self confidence and presence rising.
Overall...makes sense to me on the Tief/Aas line
As for Orc thing, having 22 Str @ lvl one, DOES work out to +2 damage with two handed weapons (1.5 str 22 = 9, and 20 = 7. Kinda like getting a bonus feat) Having impaired mentals is in order to receive the focus of +4 in a score. They tried to make it a standard in the Race Building system)
Kobolds however, I agree, they are made out to be an inferior race. I would have figured that for humanoid dragon people, even if tiny, they should be strong, instead of fast, like how dragons are bulk and powerful, but end up with dexs of 10.
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Pathfinder has a bias towards Good in all things. Races, Prestige Classes, etc. It's a wonder that Evil gods can get anyone to worship them at all in Golarion given that their counterparts give much better benefits.
Tieflings are supposed to be the counterpart of an Aasimar, but they are strictly built with less points. Fiendish sorcery simply brings you back up to par if you're a sorcerer. That's about as lame a racial ability as you can find.
But you can find this anywhere in Pathfinder. If you compare the Good counterpart to the Evil, the Good will always be better. (You can look at the Anti-paladin for a great example of this.)
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Pathfinder has a bias towards Good in all things. Races, Prestige Classes, etc. It's a wonder that Evil gods can get anyone to worship them at all in Golarion given that their counterparts give much better benefits.
Tieflings are supposed to be the counterpart of an Aasimar, but they are strictly built with less points. Fiendish sorcery simply brings you back up to par if you're a sorcerer. That's about as lame a racial ability as you can find.
But you can find this anywhere in Pathfinder. If you compare the Good counterpart to the Evil, the Good will always be better. (You can look at the Anti-paladin for a great example of this.)
It is a mystery why anyone in Golarion would choose to be born a tiefling. ^_^
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Most of the things you've mentioned are directly inherited from earlier editions.
Also, as counter-evidence: drow (strictly equal-to-or-better-than better than elves), duergar (strictly better than dwarves), and goblins (strictly better than halflings at being sneaky killers, their stat-array notwithstanding).
So...
Of course, if you want the mechanical after-the-fact justifications for their relative powers, you can purchase the Advanced Race Guide (something I strongly recommend in general), and, in the meanwhile, can check out the basics of the race development tool here.
(Bear in mind, most people do not agree with the Race Builder's prices for things due to unexpected powerful synergies, but it works in a rough kind of way.)
Beyond that, there's the concept that, "Evil always gives power at a price." sort of idea. The fact that so many evil races get a +4 in a stat is... well, pretty impressive. Those guys are powerful in their category. But the penalties they take with it? Would naturally make them weaker-willed, more easily controlled or influenced, and less likely to be able to gather support for rebellion against whatever dark master hypothetically granted them such power in the first place.
(Alternatively, they were so horrifically scarred/altered/ruined/whatever by gaining that power, or <insert your own similar story here>).
As further counter evidence for Paizo-specific bias: half-orcs have taken steps toward being similar to humans, stat-wise, despite their forebears.
This is, of course, compounded with the specific variant versions of aasimar or tiefling.
Hope that helps!
Slight edit for readability as well as grammar.
Don't forget that Aasimars have a way to get flight without needing spells or magic items (Angel Wings), whereas Tieflings can only get Vestigial Wings, which don't do anything except look ridiculous without spells or magic items (and don't do very much even with these), and which being an alternate racial trait require you to trade out something that doesn't require you to use spells or magic items (Skilled -- so much for getting an advantage on your Bluff and Stealth). So Aasimars also come out ahead of Tieflings in some of the stuff other than ability score adjustments.
As for Orcs, in return for +4 to Strength, you are taking **3** -2s, whereas most races that get +2 to Strength take only 1 -2 (and a few take none) -- if Orcs took only 2 -2s, I could call it fair. Not only that, but Keen Scent requires Wisdom 13, but Orcs are hit with -2 Wisdom, making this impractical for Orcs and for practical purposes only available to Half-Orcs (and if you take the alternate racial trait Smeller, you get a half-strength version of this but have to trade out both Ferocity and Weapon Familiarity). If Orcs didn't take -2 to Wisdom but were otherwise unchanged from current mechanics, their mechanical balance would be about right. The Advanced Race Guide Race Builder would require 4 more race points to make this adjustment (Advanced Wisdom) -- it needs a Specialized Greater Paragon ability score modifier quality to support this properly. Of course, the Advanced Race Guide Race Builder is really broken anyway (Svirfneblins aren't terrible, but no way are they 24 RP good, while elemental-touched other than Suli aren't awesome, but definitely better than the 6 RP or 7 RP they are listed as having).
(Edited to add anti-plug for Advanced Race Guide Race Builder.)
^You're assuming that you're going to have the magic items you want and/or a spellcaster on call who has spell slots to spare.
(First: fixed link.)
Yet an aasimar's their access to flight is based on something far more limited than spells or magic items: a feat. This is not really in the same category as an alternate racial trait.
You are also choosing a very, very weird example of things to compare.
One is a feat (requiring one of your grand total of 10 feat slots), that gives you flight. Beyond this, it requires a very specific racial choice (angel-blooded aasimar instead of the standard).
The other is a +4 skill bonus in exchange for two +2 skill bonuses.
If you're asking why they're not mirrors: well, yeah, consistently, fiends aren't as good at natural flying as celestials. This is reflected in their descendents.
As for orcs: yeah, sure, okay; it's a poorly made feat (though drow actually have something similar). Still: use the race builder and choose to give them advanced wisdom. This makes them an 11-point race, and makes them pretty daggum powerful.
Either way, they basically get two bonus weapon proficiency feats (either greataxe and falchion or two exotic orc weapons), see in the dark, fight even when dying, and a ton of extra rage rounds in a day (1 per level).
Alternatively, of course, take Smeller, Dayrunner, and Dirty Fighter, to drop the extra weapons, but gain the ability to do lots of very, very bad things to casters or sneaky types, and be exceptionally hard to kill while your at it (though you still drop as normal due to losing ferocity).
I'm not going to claim orcs are "on par" with the regular races, however, and if you'll notice in my post, I never did. But I am pointing out that they have some pretty good, strong options.
Of course, if you don't want to play an orc that way... don't! That's fine. (It's also what half-orcs are for.)
Let's compare them side by side, shall we?
Native Outsider: Aasimars are outsiders with the native subtype.
Native Outsider: Tieflings are outsiders with the native subtype.
Medium: Aasimars are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Medium: Tieflings are Medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Aasimars have a base speed of 30 feet.
Normal Speed: Tieflings have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Darkvision: Tieflings see in the dark for up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks.
Skilled: Tieflings gain a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Stealth checks.
Spell-Like Ability: Aasimars can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equal to the aasimar's class level).
Spell-Like Ability: Tieflings can use darkness once per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability equals the tiefling's class level.
Celestial Resistance: Aasimars have acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
Fiendish Resistance: Tieflings have cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, and fire resistance 5.
+2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma: Aasimars are insightful, confident, and personable.
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma: Tieflings are quick in body and mind, but are inherently strange and unnerving.
Fiendish Sorcery: Tiefling sorcerers with the Abyssal or Infernal bloodlines treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer class abilities.
And here's the sticking point-- Aasimar get +2/+2 Tieflings get +2/+2/-2 and a trait that makes the -2 less harmful for ONE class using two bloodlines. . . but Tiefling Bards, ect still get hosed on the CHR.
The question is why weren't Aasimar given normal starting PC race stats like everyone else?
When set alongside the Orc and Kobold examples it seems to be the "Orcs/Tieflings/Kobolds monsters/bad/evil/only fodder to be slain by "good" murder hobos" reasoning seems to stand out.
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Rereading the prehensile tail alternate racial trait, it's actually a bit lackluster unless you read a lot more into it.
By RAW, all it does is retrieve small, stowed objects as a swift action. The tail doesn't count as a hand (although it "can be used to carry items"), and whether you could carry or retrieve something like a rod is within the scope of GM allowance.
Edited for revised thoughts. :)
(First: fixed link.)
Weird -- it worked when I tried it when posting, and then is broken when I come back and try again? Must be some deviltry going on . . .
Yet an aasimar's their access to flight is based on something far more limited than spells or magic items: a feat. This is not really in the same category as an alternate racial trait.
Depends upon what limitation you are up against. If you have a 15 minute adventuring day and can be sure to get the magic items you want, I'll agree with you. If you have a 15 hour adventuring day and are out in some dump where you can't get the magic items you want and don't have a good place and time for a party member to make them, having your own wings sounds more attractive, subject to the constraints noted below.
You are also choosing a very, very weird example of things to compare.
One is a feat (requiring one of your grand total of 10 feat slots), that gives you flight. Beyond this, it requires a very specific racial choice (angel-blooded aasimar instead of the standard).
Actually, it doesn't require Angel-Blooded Aasimar, it requires the feat Angelic Blood feat, which is another feat, but one that is moderately useful on its own. Yes, the requirement of 2 feats would be bad in a class that doesn't get many bonus feats (unless in a class that doesn't need many feats), but certainly could be good for a Fighter, and could be not too shabby for a Gunslinger, Ranger, or Swashbuckler.
The other is a +4 skill bonus in exchange for two +2 skill bonuses.
If you're asking why they're not mirrors: well, yeah, consistently, fiends aren't as good at natural flying as celestials. This is reflected in their descendents.
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Depends upon which Fiends, but yes, in many cases, the original Fiends seem to be generally inferior in abilities (not just in flight) to the original Celestials. A few weeks ago, somewhere on these messageboards I saw a thread about how inferior some of the top fiends (for instance, Balor) are to equal-CR Angels. This isn't specific to Pathfinder, by the way -- you could find the same phenomenon in the AD&D 1.x Monster Manuals (Planetar could go toe-to-toe with Demon Lords, and barring bad luck a Solar would defeat them fairly easily if they couldn't get away -- but at least AD&D 1.x assigned approximately 1.5X more XP value to the Solar).
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Rereading the prehensile tail alternate racial trait, it's actually a bit lackluster unless you read a lot more into it.
By RAW, all it does is retrieve small, stowed objects as a swift action. The tail doesn't count as a hand (although it "can be used to carry items"), and whether you could carry or retrieve something like a rod is within the scope of GM allowance.
Edited for revised thoughts. :)
It has a feat upgrade called Grasping Tail that makes it massively more useful-- though swift action retrieval can be a lifesaver on its own. Certainly more useful than two points of Cha would be on the huge majority of classes. If I'm a Fighter, I would rather have the ability to pull potions as a swift action than +2 Cha. The same is true for... Barbarians, some Clerics, Druids, Monks, Rangers, Rogues, Wizards, Alchemists, Cavaliers (niche use for Cha in Chain Challenge, but emphasis niche), Gunslingers, Inquisitor, Magus, Witch, Brawler, Hunter, Investigator, Shaman, Slayer, and Warpriest.
With some alterations for archetypes and the like of course, but as a general rule the whole "Aasimars get +2/+2 and Tieflings get +2/+2/-2" is way overblown. -2 Cha is not a big deal.
Depends upon what limitation you are up against. If you have a 15 minute adventuring day and can be sure to get the magic items you want, I'll agree with you. If you have a 15 hour adventuring day and are out in some dump where you can't get the magic items you want and don't have a good place and time for a party member to make them, having your own wings sounds more attractive, subject to the constraints noted below.Do you really need to fly for all 15 hours of that day though?
'Cause that seems... like a pretty extreme corner case. Which I realize it was probably meant to be, to contrast the other extreme of the 15 minute day, but the reality seems to be far in between the two.
I'm aware of Grasping Tail - I took it on my arcane duelist bard for post-disarm weapon pickup. :)
RAW, it does let you hold items, although "can't manipulate" still limits its usefulness somewhat. Again, table variation. (For the record, I'd probably be very permissive about the tiefling's tail. I can't speak for other GMs, though.)
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Depends upon what limitation you are up against. If you have a 15 minute adventuring day and can be sure to get the magic items you want, I'll agree with you. If you have a 15 hour adventuring day and are out in some dump where you can't get the magic items you want and don't have a good place and time for a party member to make them, having your own wings sounds more attractive, subject to the constraints noted below.Do you really need to fly for all 15 hours of that day though?
'Cause that seems... like a pretty extreme corner case. Which I realize it was probably meant to be, to contrast the other extreme of the 15 minute day, but the reality seems to be far in between the two.
Probably not fly all 15 hours of the day (that would be an uber-marathon), but fly at 15 different scattered times during an adventuring day that is spread out over 15 hours? It could certainly happen in a gritty adventure.
Also consider opponents with Dispels or Anti-Magic Field (which itself is highly overpowered, but for now, it is what it is).
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Gee, it's as if the game expects us to play heroes.
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Actually, it doesn't require Angel-Blooded Aasimar, it requires the feat Angelic Blood feat, which is another feat, but one that is moderately useful on its own.You are also choosing a very, very weird example of things to compare.
One is a feat (requiring one of your grand total of 10 feat slots), that gives you flight. Beyond this, it requires a very specific racial choice (angel-blooded aasimar instead of the standard).
Just wanted to say that calling Angelic Blood "moderately useful" is a huge oversell. I have a character who is an Aasimar Celestial Sorceror/Mystery Cultist who's only feats are the Aasimar Racial ones + Celestial Obedience (because I wanted to make a character who has *all* the holies) and in practice I would call it mostly useless. Now Angelic Flesh, on the other hand -- that one's pretty cool. Well worth the Angelic Blood feat tax.
{. . .}
Just wanted to say that calling Angelic Blood "moderately useful" is a huge oversell. I have a character who is an Aasimar Celestial Sorceror/Mystery Cultist who's only feats are the Aasimar Racial ones + Celestial Obedience (because I wanted to make a character who has *all* the holies) and in practice I would call it mostly useless. Now Angelic Flesh, on the other hand -- that one's pretty cool. Well worth the Angelic Blood feat tax.
Angelic Blood[/url]"] Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against effects with the evil descriptor and on Constitution checks to stabilize when you are reduced to negative hit points (but not dead). Furthermore, each time you take bleed or blood drain damage, each undead creature or creature with the evil subtype that is currently adjacent to you also takes 1 point of damage.
How useful this is depends upon where you are. In Wrath of the Righteous or Second Darkness, you might get hit with a lot of effects having the Evil descriptor, as well as having a chance to get dropped into the negatives that you would have in most campaigns (for WotR, admittedly requires some GM patching so that it is not totally broken in the PCs' favor), so it is giving you bonuses on 2 things you might expect to come up reasonably often. (Ignore the damage to Undead and Evil subtype creatures.) This puts it approximately on par with the feats that give you +2 to 1 save or +2 to each of 2 skills (although the latter get better later on). In other words, I wouldn't get it just for its own sake, but it does enough on its own that I wouldn't be crying over having to get it to qualify for Angel Wings on a Fighter or Ranger, to get a self-sufficient flying archer (or Gunslinger). No such option exists for Tieflings unless you are a Sorcerer with the Infernal Bloodline and 15th level (although admittedly without the feat tax), or take the Eldritch Heritage (Infernal) feat chain (which is requires 3 feats and Charisma 17, and doesn't come online until level 17 -- again, the 1st 2 feats actually give decent if not outstanding benefits, but the wait is agonizing and takes you past the end of most campaigns).
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Pathfinder has a bias towards Good in all things. Races, Prestige Classes, etc. It's a wonder that Evil gods can get anyone to worship them at all in Golarion given that their counterparts give much better benefits.
That's actually pretty prevalent throughout D&D as a whole. Take, for example, dragons. Compare the five chromatic dragons to the five metallic dragons. The metallic ones, when compared to their equivalent chromatic, are more powerful. Same with angels vs demons and devils, and in many other examples through the game.
God I hate aasimars.
Uh, I mean...well, yeah. Aasimars are pretty overpowered. Paizo doesn't really like monster races, and tieflings barely squeak out of that role. Aasimars, meanwhile, are basically the opposite of monsters: Beautiful, kind, angelic...Look, guys, one of the most famous aasimars in Golarion lore turned evil because she was too perfect.
This is why I don't exactly like aasimars. Don't get me wrong—you can make a good aasimar character. But judging the race itself as a character overall, I just don't see it as a very clever race. They're angels, but like people! They make me think of Twilight Vampires, and certain ideas of elves.
Monster races tend to suffer in Pathfinder. Orcs are forced to be martials (or scarred witch doctors, thank god). Duergar are banned from being bards, summoners or sorcerers, and make mediocre clerics, too. Tieflings can only really be considered equal to or better than aasimars if they take race feats. Which are then arguably invalidated by aasimar's access to flight through their own featlines, but that's beside the point.
Note I'm not mentioning kobolds. I don't think I need to bring them up. They sucked in 3.5 and they suck worse now. Paizo doesn't even really consciously do it, they just don't want to encourage monster PCs, so they let monsters be somewhat impractical. Only drow and goblins really escape this problem.
I don't really mind it. I just see it as a fact of Pathfinder's system, guided by the setting and by the flavor favored by the designers.
Flight isn't just appealing because it's faster, though. It's appealing because you get to invalidate melee warriors, reach high-up things, and engage fellow flying enemies.
Plus, especially with rogues newly rendered useful, there are a lot of classes that don't wear armor.
I'm not saying the feat's that insane, though.
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Not all monster races are bad.
Strix get level one flight.
I'd say kobolds have some great racial feat options, but humans can just take them, so...
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They also get KOS status in the country they come from.Not all monster races are bad.
Strix get level one flight.
And? Orcs, kobolds, goblins, teiflings and such don't?
EDIT-
I thoguht this was about mechanical benifit.
I mean, I think I saw drow listed as good, and if "KOS" status was somthing that disqualfied races, drow would be too.
Which basically equates to "Sure, strix and other monsters suck, but strix suck less!" ;P
Darkness is actually a good deal cruddier for PCs than daylight, though, even ignoring how daylight can explicitly crush darkness without a fight. Lots of monsters have blindsight or the sort, and tons (like, the vast majority) have darkvision. Darkness is more likely to inconvenience your partymembers than your enemies in most campaigns. At least daylight can dazzle/blind/kill some foes, in addition to offering an easy protection against whatever darkness spells your foes bring to bear.
On the flip side, fire resistance is much better than acid resistance, but that's not that major.
'Ey, Lazar, whose side are you even on?! Pick a team or gtfo!
And they are.... neither drow nor strix characters are allowed in any campaign I set in default Golarion.They also get KOS status in the country they come from.Not all monster races are bad.
Strix get level one flight.
And? Orcs, kobolds, goblins, teiflings and such don't?
EDIT-
I thoguht this was about mechanical benifit.
I mean, I think I saw drow listed as good, and if "KOS" status was somthing that disqualfied races, drow would be too.
The why is it an argument if mosnterous races are jsut banned?
Then again, I always work off the assumption that we're talking mechanics, not fluff.
I know next to no galorion lore, as I almsot never play in galorion.