| Mathius |
It looks to me like a wand or staff with fireball in it would hold of an army far better then siege weapons.
Catapults are cheaper and their ammo is generally inexpensive but they are non-mobile, require crews, cover a much smaller area (often just 1 square), and can miss. They do have longer range.
On the other hand a guy with can wipe out 100 and it is rechargeable while a wand user might take out as many as 1000 soldiers.
A wand or staff user can be buffed massively for defense and then just fly out over the opposing army.
If catapult ammo in the form shrapnel was available and covered large are that make them better but the alchemist fire ammo costs almost as much as charge from a wand and does not do enough damage in the secondary area to remove 2nd level warriors.
| Matt2VK |
Thing is, a catapult is better at dealing structural damage then a Fireball.
Then there's all those Protection from Energy type spells, not to mention the archetype classes that are good at dis-spelling.
They're both weapons with their own pluses and negatives and it's usually wiser to have both if you can afford them.
| Dracovar |
I much prefer the "surrender or be destroyed" option, rather than a siege.
Failure to surrender? Ok - eat a high level Control Winds that instantly escalates wind speeds to tornado force. Put it into a Greater Glyph of Warding and have some unaware shmuck trigger it in the center of town. That should do quite a number on a settlement and it's defenders...
However, low magic type setting - fireball is still pretty good - toss some into the poorer sections where housing and roofing are likely nicely combustible. Treasure Stitching massive blocks of stone (and then releasing the treasure via command word while conveniently flying above any fortification that needs wrecking) works well too.
| Claxon |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The wand is better against soft targets, like an invading army. The catapult is better for when you're the invading army.
Honestly, I have a hard time imagining massed combat warfare being at all realistic in the pathfinder setting because of these existence of things like wands of fireball. Why send all your level 1 NPC warriors to be slaughter by a few flying (potion of fly) people running around with wands of fireball. Seems like it would make more sense to only ever invade with battle hardened (level 5+) soldiers and to hold cities with weak troops once significant threats were removed.
I mean otherwise entire armies could be decimated by a few first level wizards with access to wands and potions supplied by their government.
| zrandrews |
If you've ever read the Sword of Truth series, Terry Goodkind mentions this idea. In a large battle, the spell casts on each side negate each other. One will come up with a good plan wreak havoc, then the other side will start countering it, and back and forth. If they are evenly balanced, they don't make too much difference overall.
It's when only one side has magic that it becomes really devastating.
| Mathius |
I have to agree with Claxon, there just to many easy ways to casually wipe out an army.
The can be useful as an occupation force but I see little value to them as an offensive force.
On the other hand they are quite useful on defense when paired with things like wands or staffs. Massed archer is nice as well. If they have arrow slits to fire out of they get evasion. They may slow down the offense long enough for the cities big boys to arrive.
What they will not be is useful in melee. They will also not be threat to anyone behind a solid defense.
| Mathius |
Dracovar; if you can chuck high level control wind spells then whole nations will fall before you. They only thing that stops a high level caster is a high level caster.
They will run into the problem of occupying the country but they can certainly destroy it. A high level caster is a nuke. I think they meet that threshold when the gain 7th level spells.
I wonder if a non proliferation pact would form and those who can cast 7th+ spells would take measure to keep any one else from getting them. Killing them once they obtain 7th level spells and a bit of time becomes very difficult. Not sure if that applies to druids.
| Matt2VK |
Think this is one of those reasons you're always seeing Wizard Guilds spread out over multiple countries.
Those wizards know they're going to be a prime target for assassination if and when war breaks out. So they have a 'neutral clause' built into their charters. This is for two reasons (1) it helps keep those wizards alive (from those assassins) and (2) the wizards know how destructive their powers can be.
| Dracovar |
Non-proliferation would be trying to keep high level casters from showing up in the campaign world by the "mundanes". Once every country and city state has a couple high level casters, it's pretty much along the lines of having a modern world with every nation having a nuclear arsenal. It can also mean that those high-level casters already present simply kill off anyone else that tries to "join the club" as a means of limiting the potential for high level spell proliferation.
So, Deterrence is most likely the means by which countries try and prevent mass destruction via spell. Because if you can wipe out your enemies cities and he can do the same to yours, well - no one wins. Wizards especially do require the trappings of civilization - books (which means paper/vellum/etc being produced), libraries, etc. Wiping out the civilization that you depend on for your craft is...sub-optimal.
Perhaps casters adopt a "neutral" stance - they just don't get involved in warfare other than at a VERY low level (1st/2nd level spells - battlefield cures, minor area effect stuff like burning hands, etc) or perhaps not at all. The military fate of nations is in the hands of the fighter-types. Breaking such a pact/code (be it written or unwritten) leads to your eventual destruction at the hands of your fellow spellcasters. Part of THAT code also means that countries, etc do NOT mess with the spellcasters even when a city changes hands. For example, city gets invaded, but those temples and wizard towers? Ya, those are hands off - the military stays the hell away from those. After all, neutrality cuts both ways - they don't get involved in wars as long as they aren't impacted by those wars.
Problem is when you get some "we want the world to burn" types triggering a situation that escalates warfare into a "wizard war". Deterrence isn't going to be perfect. It can break down under all sorts of circumstances. My campaign world history has, as it's pivotal moment in history 600 years ago, a Wizard War that blasted most of the intelligent races back into the stone ages. The world has since recovered and spellcasters are wiser and more circumspect with their spells. Well, some of them are. You see, deterrence is starting to break down again...those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it sort of thing...heheheh.
LazarX
|
Why send all your level 1 NPC warriors to be slaughter by a few flying (potion of fly) people running around with wands of fireball.
Have your own archers take them out first, after your own mages dispel their flight or protections. A good archer can easily match the range of a fireball wand. And you're going to have lots of them, nicely spaced out.
| Cap. Darling |
One wand of fireball CL 5 is worth Lots of soldiers look in UC at the prices for soldiers.
And with a avarage damage of 17,5 on a failed save(DC 14) it is not gonna be that dangerous. The wand wielded can only almost take out the 10 huge catapults(or 18 ligth), that it cost the same as, out.
At the same time it have all the disadvantages and advantages of a super weapon.
| Kayerloth |
Tactics will change and adjust for what is common on the battlefield. For every offense there is a defense (with the exception of each time something truly new enters the battlefield giving one side an edge for a time). Invaders might have more mobile cover available or tend to use more trenches, tunnels and other earthworks. Troop formations (shield or shield formations, or Battering Rams and Siege towers won't be the only things with 'walled protections' etc.) will adapt to protect from things like fireballs. For every Fireball wand there can be a Dispel Wand, for every Protection from Normal Missiles there can be a Magic Weapon it'll go round and round in an endless hypothetical scenarios but whatever happens one thing you can be sure of is tactics will adjust over time to deal with whatever is 'normal' for that world.
| Mathius |
I agree with you Kayerloth. I just think that 'normal' will not involve large numbers of offensive troops. I think it will instead look like a bunch of superheros dealing with all the real threats. Only once they are subdued is an occupation force brought in.
I also think defenses would be targeted at dealing with mid level threats. High level threats can not really be defended against.
I like you neutrality thing. Maybe an exception is made for champions when forces appear balanced. That would be a fun way to use PCs.
I think that once 4th level spells come online you will be required to become neutral. The question becomes what breaks the neutrality. Does feeding the troops, info gathering, magic item creation? When does adventuring become warfare?
| Dave Justus |
Magical superiority would indeed be a huge advantage in warfare, not dissimilar to air superiority in our own world. By itself it wouldn't be sufficient to conquer, but it probably would be sufficient to stop most offensives.
That said, unless one side is clearly superior in magical items and people it probably won't be a huge direct factor in warfare. While your wizard might be able to take out a few hundred grunts, using him that way would be risky, as it is impossible to do so without exposing him and that gives the other side a big chance to take him out.
I would imagine that most wizards who were engaged in fighting with armies would spend most of their resources protecting themselves from attack, secondly preparing to take out or counter an enemy wizard should he appear, and lastly using magic to increase communication and intelligence gathering rather than directly killing people. Fireballing enemy troops would only be used if you had pretty much already won, or you were truly desperate, or possible as a trap, with your fire-balling mage being the bait for an enemy anti-mage unit.
| Dukeh555 |
If it's fireballs, then just hope there aren't to many spellcasters to buff the shock troops up, or summon demons, devils or daemons. Also, a wand user would be more vulnerable to arrows and spells and all that. Finally, a siege unit can cover a bit more area. As opposed to flying all over the place desperately defending, you can just put a catapult on a swivel and voila!