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When I started PFS I was told having a high Initiative modifier was key, and so my first feat was Improved Initiative, and one of my Traits was Reactionary. With an 18 Dex, I was +10 at first level.
But I was a melee striker, and I kept going before the buffs were handed out. I found myself just delaying until I could get a Haste.
By 10th level, after *just* dying to a full attack, I retrained Improved Initiative for Toughness.
Learning from that, now I try to give my casters and buffers a higher than average Initiative so they can go before others have to delay.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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There's an Ifrit Swashbuckler in my area with over +20 on his...
+4: Ifrit alternate racial trait
+2: Reactionary combat trait
+4: Improved Initiative feat
+6: Dex modifier
+1: Cracked Dusty Rose Prism ioun stone
+2: Aldori Dueling Mastery feat
+2: Swashbuckler Initiative deed
Pretty sure I'm missing something else, too... but those are what I can remember.
And he rolls more 1's and 2's for initiatives than he'd prfer even with all of those modifiers.
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Me: Bob, you got a 33 initiative, you go first. What do you do?
Bob: ...I delay.
Me: OK, next initiative is 15...
I can't tell you how many tables I've ran with a guy like Bob. If you spend all those resources to get a +20 to going first, you better have something to do or those resources were wasted.
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Man, I never found super-high initiatives to be necessary.
My 2cp.
Me neither.
Going beyond +10 or so is overkill, especially considering there are times the monsters are going to go first no matter what you roll.
There should almost never be this situation IMO. Sure just a +32 Initiative doesn't guarantee you first in the pass, but perception, magic, and smart play should make it so that monsters do not always get the drop on you because story, or whatever the extenuating circumstances first. I do not approve of the GM approach of "No perception check go first in the surprise round with a readied action out of combat" fiat.
Anyway my druid has like a +14 or something, I think he's my highest.
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The only time I had a character with a high initiative was my Elven Arcanist with Dimensional Slide and Vanish + Expeditious Retreat as spells. He was an Arcane Burglar who was a coward when it came to combat.
GM: "Alright you win the initiative, what do you do?"
ME: "I cast Expeditious Retreat and quicken a Vanish.
GM: "Anything else?"
ME: "I RUN AWAY!"
Which is honestly my point with high initiative scores. Unless your going to be:
* five-finger death-punching some dude for an absurd amount of nonlethal damage with your Monk (Martial Artist) + Ninja (Scout) build...
* Running away like a dog with its tail between its legs...
* Casting a spell that stops combat (mass hold person anyone?)...
* Kill all enemies before they get a chance...
There is no point in having a high initiative score besides the fact that you can.
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I don't have any characters with very high initiative scores, but I see that there is value in it even if you are just going to delay. It essentially lets you decide where in the initiative order you want to act.
Say you have a barbarian who wants to charge in, but first you want to let the bard buff everyone, the wizard cast a blast radius spell, and the archer to take a ranged attack or two before you get in the way, but you also want to make sure to go before the bad guys and before the halfling rogue gets in the way of your charge lane. The best way to do that is to have the highest initiative and then decide when to jump in.
In my experience, most PFS players do not place enough tactical value on the delay action. As long as you are only delaying past your friends' turns, you haven't lost anything in doing so.
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Here's one I thought about. Remember this is level 1.
Ifrit Wizard (diviner) 1
Dexterity 20: +5
Wildfire heart: +4
Improved Initiative: +4
Reactionary: +2
Familiar (dodo): +4
Diviner: +1
+21 bonus on first level AND thanks to the diviner's abilities you always act on surprise round.
And of course the wizard has some save or suck spells, like color spray , create pit or such.
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Man, I never found super-high initiatives to be necessary.
My 2cp.
*Goes First*
*Ray of Exhaustion against your Flat-Footed Touch AC.*
Heh. I have had a PC die because his Initiative modifier was too low.
Enemy gets a surprise round, uses it to move adjacent.
Enemy wins initiative because we get the same total, but his modifier is higher.
Enemy makes a full round attack, 3 natural attacks, against my PC's flat-footed AC, with sneak attack, and one confirmed critical.
PC from full health to dead, no actions in the combat.
All because his initiative modifier was too low.
YMMV.
I do have a PC with a +15 initiative modifier.
Dex +8
Improved Initiative +4 feat
Reactionary +2 trait
Ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked) +1 competence bonus
The high initiative lets him get into position, and properly use some of his abilities, like Butterfly's Sting, and the Greater Trip/Disarm feats, and his polearm...
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I do not approve of the GM approach of "No perception check go first in the surprise round with a readied action out of combat" fiat.
I don't think anyone's in favor of killer GM tactics. Noone said they were in this thread, at any rate.
That being said, just because PCs fail to perceive an ambusher or a monster hears the PCs coming and prepares a surprise for the first head to poke around the corner/through the door doesn't mean the GM is being a Jerk. But in either of those scenarios, the highest initiative value is still going to go second no matter what that value is.
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Man, I never found super-high initiatives to be necessary.
My 2cp.
*Goes First*
*Ray of Exhaustion against your Flat-Footed Touch AC.*
Which is, at MOST, what, 4 less than my regular Touch AC (since I'm not trying to spike DEX just to get a huge initiative)? If that's a thing you want to reliably do, you're probably good enough to touch me when I'm not flat-footed.
I can think of one situation where "losing initiative" spelled my downfall. I got hit with a surprise round unholy blight and regular initiative chaos hammer before I could act (as a Paladin). Had I had a turn in between, it's possible that a lay on hands could have been just enough to keep me conscious. Maybe.
What I CAN say is that investing a feat or two (Improved Initiative, Scion of War) and a trait (Reactionary) wouldn't have been enough.
tl; dr: Who has extra feats?
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Man, I never found super-high initiatives to be necessary.
My 2cp.
*Goes First*
*Ray of Exhaustion against your Flat-Footed Touch AC.*Which is, at MOST, what, 4 less than my regular Touch AC (since I'm not trying to spike DEX just to get a huge initiative)? If that's a thing you want to reliably do, you're probably good enough to touch me when I'm not flat-footed.
** spoiler omitted **
tl; dr: Who has extra feats?
Paladins, for one. Two-handed weapon + Power Attack, and you have everything you need, after that it's just making your character better and better suited for something.
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I have created an entirely new thread for you to tell us why a high Initiative modifier is unnecessary in PFS. This thread we are in right now is about the "how" not the "why" of high Initiative modifiers. Thanks. :)
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Man, I never found super-high initiatives to be necessary.
My 2cp.
*Goes First*
*Ray of Exhaustion against your Flat-Footed Touch AC.*Which is, at MOST, what, 4 less than my regular Touch AC (since I'm not trying to spike DEX just to get a huge initiative)? If that's a thing you want to reliably do, you're probably good enough to touch me when I'm not flat-footed.
** spoiler omitted **
tl; dr: Who has extra feats?
Its amazing for archers, those dropping color spray, glitterdust or touch attacks.
You effectively get get
+ their dex bonus.
No -4 for shooting into melee
no effective -4 for the fighters keister cover bonus.
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Man, I never found super-high initiatives to be necessary.
My 2cp.
*Goes First*
*Ray of Exhaustion against your Flat-Footed Touch AC.*Which is, at MOST, what, 4 less than my regular Touch AC (since I'm not trying to spike DEX just to get a huge initiative)? If that's a thing you want to reliably do, you're probably good enough to touch me when I'm not flat-footed.
** spoiler omitted **
tl; dr: Who has extra feats?
Its amazing for archers, those dropping color spray, glitterdust or touch attacks.
You effectively get get
+ their dex bonus.
No -4 for shooting into melee
no effective -4 for the fighters keister cover bonus.
Are you suggesting (for what appears to be a dedicated archer) that Improved Initiative is better than Precise Shot?
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Doesn't seem that off-topic to me. If I wanted to get off-topic I'd ask why you made an just to discuss initiatives, Fox, but truth told it's not really that big of a deal, and certainly nothing worth getting worked up over.
Additionally, I've never found it all that necessary to have a high initiative score, though I mainly play melee focused characters. My highest nitiative s a +9, and that's just off of dex and the duelist PrC. My rogues mainly just rely on Spring Attack or Gang Up to get into position for a flank, and my ninja mainly uses vanishing trick, so getting my sneak atack off isn't usually too hard, lessening the need to catch opponents flat-footed in a surprise round / first round of combat.
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"So you think you have what it takes to step into the ring with me, eh? Reach for the sky, pilgrim!"I swear Thorne, I'll catch you in the act one of these days! And then even your Ifrit reflexes won't be enough to get out of The Law's hands!
Hah! You tried that once already Armand, and we both remember how it turned out. Got sprung by my fellow Pathfinders and earned myself a commendation from the Duchess to boot. Not to mention that lovely apology you gave me along with this new badge.
I've been reinstated with a full pardon! So as far as 'The Law' is concerned, I'm as prim and proper as an Abadarian during Taxfest.
Besides, you we never fast enough to get the draw on me, sheriff.
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my lvl 3 pali has a +17, i can easily get it significantly higher.
sword of valor archtype, with reactionary,noble scion of war, imp iniative, and 1 lvl of diviner wizard with compy familiar. i have laid it out and depending on how i spend money and how much i wanna play it i can get it to bout 53 by lvl 19. doubt id ever play it that much though.
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my lvl 3 pali has a +17, i can easily get it significantly higher.
sword of valor archtype, with reactionary,noble scion of war, imp iniative, and 1 lvl of diviner wizard with compy familiar. i have laid it out and depending on how i spend money and how much i wanna play it i can get it to bout 53 by lvl 19. doubt id ever play it that much though.
Sarvei, +53 is indeed impressive.
However, I think that Noble Scion of War and Sword of Valor don’t stack.
I might be mistaken, but that's how I read the FAQ.
Scion of War: You use your Charisma modifier to adjust Initiative checks instead of your Dexterity modifier.
First Into Battle (Su): At 2nd level, a sword of valor can spend 1 use of smite evil or lay on hands to act in the surprise round, even if she is surprised. When the paladin makes an Initiative check, she gains a bonus to the check equal to her Charisma bonus. This ability replaces divine grace.
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
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I think my highest Init bonus is +12 on my Inquisitor. I don't particularly need it, but the character is all about being first. Going first, being there first, noticing things first, etc.
Anyhow, I want to posit that there are some melee types who should invest in Initiative. Basically anyone who'd spent their first turn activating abilities. Rage's Will save bonus or fear immunity, judgment of protection, defensive stance's Con bonus, Combat Patrol, etc, are sometimes life savers and even against some simple unchallenging mooks going early saves you time and nerves. Especially if your combat M.O is all about positioning.
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Scion of war and first into battle do stack. The reason being one replaces dex, and the other adds in addition to dex. If both powers said add your cha in addition to your dex, they wouldn't. In this case, you are not using two effects to add the same ability modifier. You are using one effect to substitute ability modifiers and one to add.
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Contributor
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Scion of war and first into battle do stack. The reason being one replaces dex, and the other adds in addition to dex. If both powers said add your cha in addition to your dex, they wouldn't. In this case, you are not using two effects to add the same ability modifier. You are using one effect to substitute ability modifiers and one to add.
This is the same argument people made for Fury's Fall, if I recall correctly, and we were told that the FAQ put a stop to that. :/
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Sory, I'm unaware of any previous argument. I'm just going off the wording of the FAQ which is pretty clear.Scion of war and first into battle do stack. The reason being one replaces dex, and the other adds in addition to dex. If both powers said add your cha in addition to your dex, they wouldn't. In this case, you are not using two effects to add the same ability modifier. You are using one effect to substitute ability modifiers and one to add.This is the same argument people made for Fury's Fall, if I recall correctly, and we were told that the FAQ put a stop to that. :/
you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier.
The FAQ here says you can still add an ability modifier twice as long as they are different types. If this is not their intent, then they should not say you can in the FAQ.
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Contributor
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Sory, I'm unaware of any previous argument. I'm just going off the wording of the FAQ which is pretty clear.Scion of war and first into battle do stack. The reason being one replaces dex, and the other adds in addition to dex. If both powers said add your cha in addition to your dex, they wouldn't. In this case, you are not using two effects to add the same ability modifier. You are using one effect to substitute ability modifiers and one to add.This is the same argument people made for Fury's Fall, if I recall correctly, and we were told that the FAQ put a stop to that. :/you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier.The FAQ here says you can still add an ability modifier twice as long as they are different types. If this is not their intent, then they should not say you can in the FAQ.
I bolded the relevant part in your quote.
If First into Battle gave an insight bonus or competence bonus to initiative, then they would stack. But since they are both untyped and derived directly from the same ability score - even though untyped bonuses normally stack - they won't work together.
It was a very contentious FAQ. :)
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It's funny how you can read something and it seems perfectly clear and straightforward to you, and then someone else reads exactly the same thing and takes it as meaning completely the opposite. I'm still seeing nothing to convince me that it isn't intended to work the way I read it. Replace and add work together. Replace and replace are redundant. Add and add do not work, you only get one.
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"So you think you have what it takes to step into the ring with me, eh? Reach for the sky, pilgrim!"I swear Thorne, I'll catch you in the act one of these days! And then even your Ifrit reflexes won't be enough to get out of The Law's hands!Hah! You tried that once already Armand, and we both remember how it turned out. Got sprung by my fellow Pathfinders and earned myself a commendation from the Duchess to boot. Not to mention that lovely apology you gave me along with this new badge.
I've been reinstated with a full pardon! So as far as 'The Law' is concerned, I'm as prim and proper as an Abadarian during Taxfest.
Besides, you we never fast enough to get the draw on me, sheriff.
Begrudgingly. It was the right thing to do, under the circumstances. You're a good sheriff, Thorne. You have the city's heart and soul at the palm of your hands, you just take it too far, too often. Deep down I always hope you will do the right thing. You just have to play by the rules.
But don't think you'll ever get the drop on me. You may be fast, and I admit, you might be able to beat me, but reflexes are only so much. Training is far more important. You'd understand that if you'd spent more time at the station.
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Contributor
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It's funny how you can read something and it seems perfectly clear and straightforward to you, and then someone else reads exactly the same thing and takes it as meaning completely the opposite. I'm still seeing nothing to convince me that it isn't intended to work the way I read it. Replace and add work together. Replace and replace are redundant. Add and add do not work, you only get one.
You may find these posts from Mark Seifter to be of interest. :)