Less Goku, more Krillin.
At least it ain't Yamcha.
Never go full Yamcha.
All this hate for Yamcha and yet Vegeta only gets Yamcha's cast offs. Speculative point! Based off the fact Bulma was so desperate for a boyfriend she decided to track down rumors of a set of mystical crystal balls capable of granting a wish, it can easily be assumed that Yamcha was also Bulma's "first".
Prince of the Saiyans he may be, but Vegeta is still second place to Yamcha >:)
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You just described most of Vegeta's life there, Tels. Second place to everyone.
Our out curiosity, how much Ki pool would be "enough"?
1/lv + Wis?
2/lv + Wis?
More?
I'll save further comment for later, but reading this thread... I'm no longer excited about the Unchained Monk. It seems like it lost almost as much as it gained. Why the hell did they nerf their Will saves and make FoB more restrictive? And I don't really think Wis to hit is all that good... Wis to damage would be better.
I guess I'll just use the new spell list for Summoners and maybe the Unchained Rogue (I don't know much about it yet, but it can't be worse than the base class).
I actually had a variant monk with wis to hit and to damage, but I never go to playtest it. Then I went for over a year with not enough people to game with so I forgot about it.
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Ki Throw, Spider Step, Cloud Step, Wind Stance, Lightning Stance are already available as Qinggong PowersRead the fine print on Qinggong powers. You spend Ki to gain that for a round. Not really a good trade on any of the Feat powers.
True. I just wanted to point that out.
Also want to point out that the bonus feat list also includes the following feats due to their language (see below):
Ki Throw, Improved Ki Throw, Binding Throw, Hamatulatsu, Ki Diversity (not PFS legal), Horn of the Criosphinx, Wings of the Androsphinx
Not sure what good a feat some of these are if you take them but not their prerequisites though (snatch arrows without deflect arrows? improved ki throw without ki throw?).
Also not sure why they didn't add the bonus feat language below to all the monk only feats and style feats, like they did to the ones in the list above.
Special: feat name here may be selected as a substitute bonus feat at nth level by a monk even if the monk does not otherwise meet the prerequisites.
Maybe they didn't want us to get the style end caps/ cloud walk without paying the feat tolls.
Also why wasn't weapon focus on the list from day 1?
Our out curiosity, how much Ki pool would be "enough"?
1/lv + Wis?
2/lv + Wis?
More?
Full level +Wis would be sufficient, probably. Especially if Extra Ki were beefed up a bit (maybe changes it to double Wis mod?).
Full level +Wis would be sufficient, probably. Especially if Extra Ki were beefed up a bit (maybe changes it to double Wis mod?).Our out curiosity, how much Ki pool would be "enough"?
1/lv + Wis?
2/lv + Wis?
More?
That sounds reasonable to me.
Although, would the as written amount be okay if there was a regen mechanic baked in, something like what Gunslinger or Swashbuckler has?
Yes. As-is the only real option of that nature is Ki Leech, which isn't available until 10th.
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Full level +Wis would be sufficient, probably. Especially if Extra Ki were beefed up a bit (maybe changes it to double Wis mod?).Our out curiosity, how much Ki pool would be "enough"?
1/lv + Wis?
2/lv + Wis?
More?That sounds reasonable to me.
Although, would the as written amount be okay if there was a regen mechanic baked in, something like what Gunslinger or Swashbuckler has?
Well there is the Ki Mat I think it has kind of a low rate of recharge though. I'd prefer something built into the class and maybe a bit faster (1/10 minutes?).
I think the new Ki features will probably put the Ring of Ki Mastery up there with the (if not above) Monk's Robes for lots of people (if it wasn't there already).
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Ki Throw, Spider Step, Cloud Step, Wind Stance, Lightning Stance are already available as Qinggong PowersRead the fine print on Qinggong powers. You spend Ki to gain that for a round. Not really a good trade on any of the Feat powers.True. I just wanted to point that out.
Also want to point out that the bonus feat list also includes the following feats due to their language (see below):
Ki Throw, Improved Ki Throw, Binding Throw, Hamatulatsu, Ki Diversity (not PFS legal), Horn of the Criosphinx, Wings of the AndrosphinxNot sure what good a feat some of these are if you take them but not their prerequisites though (snatch arrows without deflect arrows? improved ki throw without ki throw?).
Also not sure why they didn't add the bonus feat language below to all the monk only feats and style feats, like they did to the ones in the list above.
Special: feat name here may be selected as a substitute bonus feat at nth level by a monk even if the monk does not otherwise meet the prerequisites.Maybe they didn't want us to get the style end caps/ cloud walk without paying the feat tolls.
Also why wasn't weapon focus on the list from day 1?
Also I forgot to list all the (rarely used) meditation feats on this list.
Hmmm, I don't actually have the book, but to my eye, it seems the Unchained monk probably makes a much better single class choice, but a much worse multi-class choice (which is unfortunately my preference, Monk/Druid multiclass).
On the other hand, I bet the new unchained monks make excellent Champions of Irori. Instead of going more levels in paladin, you can load up on Monk levels for extra ki abilities (powered by the CoI's channel-energy to ki alchemy). Am I right?
prototype00
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Wyroot quarterstaff might be a more tempting now that you can add 1.5 strength with them in a FoB.
Since it requires crits, and monks get proficiency with all monk weapons now, the Sansetsukon is probably the better choice.
Or just take ki leech as a ki power.
Which requires being 10th level, so not an option a lot of the time.
Also, it does still cost 0 ki for ki leech right?
All things in Pathfinder Unchained are optional rules. As for PFS I have not seen an official statement yet, I think that is still otw.
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All things in Pathfinder Unchained are optional rules. As for PFS I have not seen an official statement yet, I think that is still otw.I remember someone saying that as long as you have the material, you can use it in character development. Though there are exclusions due to popular opinion.
there has been no official statement for PFS yet regarding Unchained. So anything, anybody tell you about it at the moment is just a lie.
PFS will announce what is allowed either this Monday, or the following Monday. But it will be before the release. link
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I was not aware of those feats. My future monk thanks you for making me aware of them.Also I forgot to list all the (rarely used) meditation feats on this list.Ki Throw, Spider Step, Cloud Step, Wind Stance, Lightning Stance are already available as Qinggong PowersRead the fine print on Qinggong powers. You spend Ki to gain that for a round. Not really a good trade on any of the Feat powers.True. I just wanted to point that out.
Also want to point out that the bonus feat list also includes the following feats due to their language (see below):
Ki Throw, Improved Ki Throw, Binding Throw, Hamatulatsu, Ki Diversity (not PFS legal), Horn of the Criosphinx, Wings of the AndrosphinxNot sure what good a feat some of these are if you take them but not their prerequisites though (snatch arrows without deflect arrows? improved ki throw without ki throw?).
Also not sure why they didn't add the bonus feat language below to all the monk only feats and style feats, like they did to the ones in the list above.
Special: feat name here may be selected as a substitute bonus feat at nth level by a monk even if the monk does not otherwise meet the prerequisites.Maybe they didn't want us to get the style end caps/ cloud walk without paying the feat tolls.
Also why wasn't weapon focus on the list from day 1?
They're a bit hidden. I also wish that they'd just given some of the meditation feats to the monk for free (Meditation Master and Body Control, two which should have been combined into just one feat).
So, it occurs to me that you could kludge all the archetypes pretty easily.
Just change them so they replace the Ki Power gained at X level.
This works for most archetypes, I think.
Well, if you want yellow hair, aura, energy shooting and flying, Qinggong Monk/Monk of the Four Winds (Ki-rin aspect for the golden hair etc...) and qiggong monk for the energy shooting. I don't say that it is an effective build...but yeah that's your super saiyan monk package.
I think I am going to have to do this now, just to mess with one of my gaming groups. I won't even tell them that I am doing it, just one day the monk will become a flying super saiyan. Muahaha.
That's kinda what I was thinking Rynjin, most archetypes should work if you basically say "At X level you gain X no choice" then a good portion should still function. I still think the Unchained Monk is better than the Core option, but I also feel they can function independently of each other and be so wildly different that it's not too big a deal to keep both.
Well, if you want yellow hair, aura, energy shooting and flying, Qinggong Monk/Monk of the Four Winds (Ki-rin aspect for the golden hair etc...) and qiggong monk for the energy shooting. I don't say that it is an effective build...but yeah that's your super saiyan monk package.I think I am going to have to do this now, just to mess with one of my gaming groups. I won't even tell them that I am doing it, just one day the monk will become a flying super saiyan. Muahaha.
Don't forget to take Blood Crow Strike Ki power, Pummeling Style, and the Quicken Spell-like Ability so that you can power up and fire a Kamehameha in a single round.
Also I forgot to list all the (rarely used) meditation feats on this list.Ki Throw, Spider Step, Cloud Step, Wind Stance, Lightning Stance are already available as Qinggong PowersRead the fine print on Qinggong powers. You spend Ki to gain that for a round. Not really a good trade on any of the Feat powers.True. I just wanted to point that out.
Also want to point out that the bonus feat list also includes the following feats due to their language (see below):
Ki Throw, Improved Ki Throw, Binding Throw, Hamatulatsu, Ki Diversity (not PFS legal), Horn of the Criosphinx, Wings of the AndrosphinxNot sure what good a feat some of these are if you take them but not their prerequisites though (snatch arrows without deflect arrows? improved ki throw without ki throw?).
Also not sure why they didn't add the bonus feat language below to all the monk only feats and style feats, like they did to the ones in the list above.
Special: feat name here may be selected as a substitute bonus feat at nth level by a monk even if the monk does not otherwise meet the prerequisites.Maybe they didn't want us to get the style end caps/ cloud walk without paying the feat tolls.
Also why wasn't weapon focus on the list from day 1?
That's because they are all trap feats. Far too long of a feat tree for the effects they provide.
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The monk's defining class feature is anime. This is the anime class. We must simply learn to deal with that (or celebrate it, as the case may be).
Flurrying has been around since the kung fu movies of the 1970s (and, for that matter, it's been around since the 1e monk, who got 4 attacks per round by the end). For Westerners, at least, I'd say that anime has followed on from the kung fu movies which also inspired the 1e monk (no monk in 2e at the beginning, but it came back, at least in Greyhawk, towards the end of 2e). When kids like the younger me were reading about the monk in the 1e PhB, it was about Bruce Lee's movies and David Carradine's monk in the TV series Kung Fu.
... and be so wildly different that it's not too big a deal to keep both.
I think that's one of two things that's bothering me with what I've heard about this new monk, it barely resembles the previous one (though honestly in some ways it feels like it resembles to the old one too much). Also a lot of how great the unchained monk is seems to stem from how powerful the new flurry of blows is. I wonder how good this alternative will look if it's decided that the new FoB is overpowered and needs an erratum.
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I believe it is somewhat less than ten thousand.What did the scanner say about the Unchained monk's power level?We haven't even seen the monk's final form!Why can't we just get a Monk that can Fly. Monks should be able to fly if they try hard enough.Because thats TOO anime. Next we'll have yellow haired, energy shooting, flying monks!At least two of those are already possible.
Just working on the third.
And mechanical limbs for Alchemists.
Less Goku, more Krillin.
At least it ain't Yamcha.
I do not know what this Yamcha is but it sounds pathetic.
I don't necessarily mean wildly different in regards to Chassis, though it is that. A 3/4 Bab d8 all good saves character plays a bit differently than a Full Bab d10 2 good saves character. The first is more discerning in when it engages due to typically lower hp than other frontliners and wants to flank more in order to facilitate landing blows. The latter is more like a Ranger in that you can just jump in and go to town.
The real differences is honestly to me the icing on the Unchained Monk. Even Rynjin agrees Style Strikes are pretty cool. I think debates will always be waged about the Ki Powers, but each group has it's own playstyle so what is super awesome to one game group may be dead weight to another.
Both Monks represent an unarmed combatant with a mystical lean. I think the Unchained does a great job fixing the most common issues I experienced playing monks since 3rd edition and what players at my table have commented on when they play monks. Most common complaint has been accuracy followed by their powers never really being useful or applicable. Getting a full BaB and no penalty when flurrying and being able to Build-A-Bear your Monk will make my players very happy indeed.
Flurrying has been around since the kung fu movies of the 1970s (and, for that matter, it's been around since the 1e monk, who got 4 attacks per round by the end). For Westerners, at least, I'd say that anime has followed on from the kung fu movies which also inspired the 1e monk (no monk in 2e at the beginning, but it came back, at least in Greyhawk, towards the end of 2e). When kids like the younger me were reading about the monk in the 1e PhB, it was about Bruce Lee's movies and David Carradine's monk in the TV series Kung Fu.
The monk's defining class feature is anime. This is the anime class. We must simply learn to deal with that (or celebrate it, as the case may be).
To be fair, Fist of the North Star is nearly as old as those (first released in 1983), and remains influential to this day, so saying which the Monk of today is inspired by is impossible.
Bruce Lee and Kenshiro are equally prominent figures in martial arts inspired media, and the modern Monk incorporates elements both from more grounded martial arts movies, Wuxia, and anime for certain.
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Style Strikes:
Defensive Spin: +4 dodge vs same foe if hit (fist)
Elbow Smash: additional attack at -5 if hit (fist)
Flying Kick: move fast movement bonus before attack (kick)
Foot Stomp: foe must end next move adjacent to monk if hit (kick)
Hammerblow: double damage dice on hit before bonuses (fist, two hands free)
Head-Butt: roll CMB to stagger foe if hit but -8 if different creature type (head-butt)
Knockback Kick: roll CMB to knockback 10 feet if hit, +10 feet per +5 (kick)
Leg Sweep: free trip if hit (kick)
Shattering Punch: bypass DR (fist)
Spin Kick: roll vs flat-footed AC (kick)
Style Strike at 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th
Once per flurry to start, twice per flurry at 15th
Spin kick plus vmc rogue equals love.
My only gripe about Style Strikes is that EVERYONE will want to take Flying kick. The others are good, but Flying Kick is the standout "OMG I NEED THIS" Strike. They probably should have just made that a core class feature, because the rest are hard to choose between (though Headbutt being pretty much completely ineffective against Large or larger creatures makes me sad).
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Flurrying has been around since the kung fu movies of the 1970s (and, for that matter, it's been around since the 1e monk, who got 4 attacks per round by the end). For Westerners, at least, I'd say that anime has followed on from the kung fu movies which also inspired the 1e monk (no monk in 2e at the beginning, but it came back, at least in Greyhawk, towards the end of 2e). When kids like the younger me were reading about the monk in the 1e PhB, it was about Bruce Lee's movies and David Carradine's monk in the TV series Kung Fu.
The monk's defining class feature is anime. This is the anime class. We must simply learn to deal with that (or celebrate it, as the case may be).
To be fair, Fist of the North Star is nearly as old as those (first released in 1983), and remains influential to this day, so saying which the Monk of today is inspired by is impossible.
Bruce Lee and Kenshiro are equally prominent figures in martial arts inspired media, and the modern Monk incorporates elements both from more grounded martial arts movies, Wuxia, and anime for certain.
1e predates 1983 by some way, but my point was just that there's been fast-striking martial artists in both movies and 1e before anime was a big deal to Westerners. That fast-striking is consistent with that older material (which I personally think is the source for the 1e monk) and the newer anime material, so that's why I don't think one should say that the "defining class feature" is anime (it's certainly consistent with it).
I'm curious as to how those Style Strikes would interact with a Feral Combat using Unchained Combat.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can only use one of those in a round, so I couldn't say Flying Kick to the Enemy, Spin Kick, Leg Sweep, then Hammerblow my hopefully floored enemy?
No, you get one per Flurry, or two at 15th.
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No, you get one per Flurry, or two at 15th.I'm curious as to how those Style Strikes would interact with a Feral Combat using Unchained Combat.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can only use one of those in a round, so I couldn't say Flying Kick to the Enemy, Spin Kick, Leg Sweep, then Hammerblow my hopefully floored enemy?
already homebrewed a 9th level feat that grants an additional one.
I'm sad there's no grapple based Style Strike on that list.
My only gripe about Style Strikes is that EVERYONE will want to take Flying kick. The others are good, but Flying Kick is the standout "OMG I NEED THIS" Strike. They probably should have just made that a core class feature, because the rest are hard to choose between (though Headbutt being pretty much completely ineffective against Large or larger creatures makes me sad).
You could get Pummeling Strike/charge instead though.
Now, Shattering Punch, Foot Stomp (is there a save or does deny all movement away?), or Elbow Smash (neat for extra attack) is pretty neat.
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My fix to Style Strikes:
Once per day when you replenish your ki pool, you may also choose and prepare a single style strike from the list available. You may only have one style strike prepared at a time. At 9th, 13th, and 17th level, you may prepare an additional style strike when you replenish your ki pool. You may choose from among your prepared style strikes when making a flurry of blows attack, subject to your normal limit per round.
Hm... The new flurry of blows doesn't have the strength bonus text the original monk had. So a monk could flurry with a seven-branched sword or Sansetsukon for 1D10 damage, add 1.5 strength modifier and the two-handed power attack modifier...?