I like that touch range hack for detect magic. I'd probably add back in a non-cantrip version at level 1.
Maybe "detect magic" (cantrip) and "sense magic" (1st level)?
Inflation doesn't interact at all well with things that have an absolute value known, however.
I.e. magic item construction, setting absolute values on things since easy item making came along in 3E.
Just because the area is awash in gold doesn't mean your 1000 gp diamond just doubled in price...its still worth only 1000 gp in making magic, and that applies to any other raw material component that has to be figured into a magical item. If someone is going to charge you 2k for that diamond, you'll find other gems that add up to it, or someone willing to exchange gold for his otherwise useless diamond.
And you're saying 'flooded'. He doesn't have to flood. He's competing. He's competing at a level no Crafter can match. He has the work output of 70 smiths just making masterwork chainmail. It's like comparing hand-made to 2000's-era robotic assembly lines. There is no competition. The by-hand guy is going to have a very small clientele, and the assembly line is going to get the business.
The mage with Fabricate is the exact same way.
==+Aelryinth
Not only is it reasonable for a GM to change those values, there's even some talk about inflation on page 149 of the GMG. There aren't hard and fast rules for it, though.
What seems clear to me though is that all of these rules are simplifications intended to keep PCs from spending all their time book-keeping. There's basically no reason you should ever apply them to NPCs, settlements, kingdom economies, etc., and expect results that reflect a sane world.
Inflation doesn't interact at all well with things that have an absolute value known, however.
==+AelryinthNothing has an absolute value. Value is an arbitrary creation of the economy and fluctuate with circumstances. The values set out in the rules are based upon the standard, steady-state situation assumed by the game creators. If that steady state is upset, it is completely reasonable for an intelligent GM to change those values.
In some cases, that might be favorable. That 50,000 GP diamond you needed for one spell component now only costs 5,000 GP on the market. However, when you make what used to be a 50,000 GP diamond, you can now only trade it in for 5,000 GP worth of other goods and services.
You bring up the concept of assembly lines and how they drove out crafters (this started happening long before the early 2000s, even with robotic assembly lines), but ignore the fact that these mass production approaches also dramatically decreased the per unit value of each individual item.
Again, this is very basic economics, like high school level.
Again, you are ignoring the fact that gold has a stated value in PF. It does NOT vary in value when used to make magic items.
By YOUR reasoning, inflation would suddenly mean that you need 10,000 gp of spell comps for a day of magical labor.
No, the rules say you need 1000 gp. It's a stated value. It's a FIXED value...it's an 'amount' of stuff, not a 'value' of stuff.
So, it doesn't suddenly take 10x the amount of components to make the magical item. It takes X amount, and x amount happens to be whatever volume of material 1000 gp is equivalent to.
So, no matter how cheap you make something, it's still going to be worth 1000 gp when used to make magic items, and will sell accordingly.
I happen to have a Masters in economics and Finance, so you're not going to win this one, Saldiven. It's why I said inflation and fixed value stuff don't intermix.
Economics will drive the lesser crafters out of primary high-end masterwork-type business, because that's where the money is for the Fabricators. If that means that the price per unit goes down, that's fine. However, the rules are quite clear in how long it takes to build stuff in PF using Craft skills. Until you introduce methods to actually put Crafters into assembly lines where they can match the ten minute casting time of Fabricate per unit, Fabricate is monstrously more effective and will capture any and all of the high end market simply with the time savings and the convenience.
Crafters will STILL be able to make non-masterwork stuff for consumption, but Fabricators are simply cheaper and faster doing the high-end, high-value stuff practically instantly.
The only way the price is going to go DOWN is if the Fabricators begin competing with one another, which, amazingly enough, they probably don't have a huge incentive to do...that's why there are Wizard Guilds, after all, to organize these things. Much more efficient to collaborate on an economic level, keep prices high, and profit...which is exactly what happens in real life with monopolies and oligopolies. Since competition is not 'wide open' (it's restricted to 9th+ level casters, for starters), you aren't going to get the absolute competition necessary to lower the price of everything to a trade good.
Collusion will set in, and monopoly pricing will be the result.
The reason for this pricing is basic economics, also. The Cost to the Fabricator is 2 spell slots, which cost nothing, and twenty minutes of his time, in addition to the raw material. This non-material cost is fixed REGARDLESS OF HOW EXPENSIVE THE FINAL ITEM IS.
That's huge. It's like saying you need the same time to make a toy wagon, a Ford Taurus, and a Saturn V rocket.
The cost to a crafter is DAYS of his time, for masterwork item, plus raw material cost.
The benefit/hour is huge for the wizard, and small for the crafter. The crafter will move to compete at the low-end stuff only the most desperate Fabricator would bother with, and make the same exact amount per day he would otherwise, he simply has to make lots of low value items, instead of a few superior ones.
That's economics at work. In short, the market is going to get flooded with a lot of standard stuff, as Crafters, deprived of the high-end Masterwork market, instead sell mundane stuff the spellcasters don't bother with, resulting in more 'normal' stuff out there for people to buy.
Note that the Crafters make the same amount of money either way...Skill Check x DC in production per day. But they're going to be churning out twice as many or more suits of armor and weapons of normal make, and multiples of pots and pans and the like.
That's the economics of the situation.
In any event, the value of gold will remain relatively fixed, because magic item construction and spell component costs will provide absolute points of reference on value. So, while that 5000 gp value diamond may be worth more suits of plate armor then before, it will still be worth 5000 gp...it's the plate armor that will be cheaper, not more expensive.
So, actually, prices for mundane items would actually fall, because there would be more of them on the market. Due to time costs, however, high-end items will remain relatively the same, since competition will be lacking from Crafters until means of making Masterwork level items in very short periods of time becomes possible.
==Aelryinth
I'd also like to point out that the Crafter can still make masterwork items and sell them, and they're just as good as Fabricated.
However, there's no way he can keep up with the output of a wizard. THe wizard can make 70 suits of Masterwork chainmail in the time it takes him to make one. They are both equally valuable, but who are people going to go to when they want to buy a suit? If they want it today, or tomorrow?
If we're talking monster high end, like gemstones, jewelry, or alternate metal armor, the wizard is literally thousands of times more productive. A Diadem that has to have an 18,000 gp value to serve as component costs for an Int+6 Item represents years of work for most crafters, and 'tomorrow' for a wizard.
==Aelryinth
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I had overlooked this spell. 24 hours of "F**@ you desert" is not going to allow me to run this Dark Sun campaign like I want to. I might have to nix this spell.b
Endure Elements (starting at FIRST LEVEL any plots having to do with enduring the elements, ala Dark Sun style stuff or whatever, gone. Even for non-casters. 50 gp for 24 hours of nope in potion form.)
As someone who runs an environment heavy campaign I can say that this spell isn't as bad as it sounds. My party does prep it or have it on a wand everywhere but it means they either have to dump cash for the wand or fork over a 1st level spell slot in order to stay like that all the time and at 3rd-5th that is pretty steep. Also the fact that it's limited to a set temperature range (-50-140) means if you want to go with really severe weather conditions they are still screwed. Beyond that at higher levels worrying about weather in the ways that endure elements helps with though is largely useless since in most circumstances you're looking at around 3 nonlethal in winter to 2 nonlethal in high summer heat per hour and doesn't really put most players out and likely shouldn't.
Hell if you really want to see something put a weather issue out of business just let a player roll up an undead blooded sorcerer. He gets cold 5 and DR 5/- vs nonlethal meaning that at the very least all but the worst cold dmg is going to get shrugged to him just ignoring all weather based damage since it's written as not only nonlethal but not high enough to penetrate any of his defenses.
As for OP spells though mine is haste. It's way too good for what it does and is just boring design wise since the only real counter to it is to throw haste on your own guys and just negate the bonus. At that point you might as well remove the spell and build in haste like bonuses to all the classes rather than relegate all teams to having it once you hit 5th+. I've found I like the Time Shudder spell out of ACG much better since though it doesn't change anything about haste's abilities it adds some form of risk to going for its abilities that creates for a more interesting spell than just, "My whole team is buffed up now".
cold 5 is by the round, by the source. That means pretty much immune to all non-magical cold weather conditions. They would have to inflict 6 hp/round to do anything to him.
paladins can get that benefit by using their favored class ability. 1 cold and 1 fire resist means basic immunity to standard temperature extremes that don't inflict damage by the round.
Endure Elements lets melee types wear armor in heat and casters dress lightly in cold. I don't see it as a problem. Until you get Mass Endure Elements, its not a game changer.
==Aelryinth
Note that Haste is automatically countered and dispelled by Slow, although its not anywhere as near as popular a spell.
==Aelryinth
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Note that Haste is automatically countered and dispelled by Slow, although its not anywhere as near as popular a spell.
==Aelryinth
Yeah and that's the issue. Since most counterspelling like that is generally either super niche or just uninteresting at best or really sub par at worst. Like the slow counter isn't used because just turning haste off is boring, the targets are just debuffed back to normal meh. Meanwhile if I drop haste on my own team we now have a BUNCH of new options to play with in our tool box and even if I use it to remove a slow I'm still getting all my old options back.
Haste really needs some mods to make it more like the divine spell talked about upthread. Something that makes the buffs either more situational, or more cost to selection. Like say having to pick which buff you want each round or some risk like a time shudder mechanic.
Back in the olden days being subjected to a haste spell would age all the targets 1 year. Consequently it was used sparingly and not frequently abused as it is now.
That's half the story. The other half is that *because* it aged all targets 1 year, it had a non-trivial (15-40%, based on typical Constitution scores) chance of instant-killing the targets due to System Shock.
And forget Restoration, which required you to:
-Find a 14th level cleric with 18+ Wisdom;
-Convince her that it's in her god's best interest to let her cast it;
-Convince her that it's worth the chance of instant-killing herself by casting it.
-Convince YOURSELF that instant death was worth the risk of undoing the level drain.
Permanency? 1 point of Constitution drain, guaranteed, for personal applications (and 5% chance of it otherwise.)
GM: Okay but he's got a dagger. It's got an attack speed of 2 so he gets to attack you two and a half times before your healing spell goes off and if he hits once you lose the spell. Get no healing, nothing.
The rule about "two and a half attacks" (only two, actually) was for weapon vs. weapon combat in 1e, and then only in the case of simultaneous initiative. It amounted to slow weapons granting their opponents free attacks just for being slow weapons.
It was far more complicated for weapon vs. spell - IF the caster happened to win initiative (otherwise it was easy.) The weapon user got to subtract his (d6 rolled) initiative from his speed factor, taking the absolute value of the result as his MSF; if his MSF was lower (faster) than the spell's casting time, he was allowed to pre-empt the caster's initiative.
I have absolutely never understood the argument that dagger users got to go twice per slow weapon user.
A combat round was based on x attacks...1, 3/2, or 2. You rolled initiative, added weapon speed or casting time, and that's when you got your attacks off.
you didn't go multiple times before the end of the round. Everyone got one round of attacks.
Anyone actually play differently? Sure, big sword users went last, but that just meant the dagger guys saw it coming.
==Aelryinth
Dot for later.
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I don't think there are any over-powered spells.
I think that it just looks that way because there are a MASSIVE TON of really unimpressive and under-powered spells.
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I have absolutely never understood the argument that dagger users got to go twice per slow weapon user.
I believe this was a rule in AD&D 1E (where a dagger has a speed factor of 2 & a two-handed sword a speed factor of 10):
"When opponents in melee have tied for initiative, blows occur simultaneously, except when both opponents are using weapons. Each weapon has a speed factor, and in the case of otherwise simultaneous blows, the opponent with the weapon which has the lower speed factor will strike first.When weapon speed factor is the determinant of which opponent strikes first in a melee round, there is a chance that one opponent will be entitled to multiple attacks Compare the scare of the lower-factored weapon with that of the higher. If the difference is at least twice the factor of the lower, or 5 or more factors in any case, the opponent with the lower factored weapon is entitled to 2 attacks before the opponent with the higher weapon factor is entitled to any attack whatsoever. If the difference is 10 or greater, the opponent with the lower-factored weapon is entitled to 2 attacks before the opponent is allowed to attack, and 1 further attack at the same time the opponent with the higher-speed-factored weapon finally is allowed to attack."
I'm sure lots of people played it wrong - it was supposed to be only on an initiative tie - or ignored it completely.
aye, completely ignored it here.
I can't recall ever even READING that rule. Wow.
==Aelryinth
Finally, and I can't stress this enough, HOW ARE ALL THESE WIZARDS GETTING THEIR HANDS ON A SPELL SPECIFIC TO A CAMPAIGN AND THAT HASN'T BEEN AROUND FOR 10,000 YEARS?! Oh and only exists in Karzoug's personal spell book at that!
10,000 years is enough time for a spell to propagate. At some point, there must have been a wizard who was the only wizard with fireball.
How are all these wizards unwilling to research a low level spell that replaces costly/rare components with their own blood?
Additionally, Karzoug existed well before 4707, if I recall correctly - he slumbered, right? The Runelords ruled Thassilon, which fell in the prehistory-equivalent time period.
That's a long time.
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The problem with Remove Disease solving so many problems is this: how does the Cleric know he needs to cast Remove Disease on John Black the Farmer with bone cancer?
My problem with remove disease is that you cure someone of the disease afflicting them right then and there.
And then they go home and get re-infected *immediately* by their pillow, spouse, kids, pet, clothing, fleas, etc. (assuming they aren't reinfected by the clothing they are wearing right now, on their way out of the temple! or by someone else coughing on the street...).
It would be entirely appropriate for people to storm the temple a few days later, because they are all sick again, having only 'felt better for a few hours' and deciding that *obviously* the temple was lying about curing them and just peddling some 'feel better for a few hours, thanks for 150 gp, sukkah!' snake oil!
Again as of 4707AR it only exist in the one place as far as I can recall...
Unless he is explicitly listed as being the only caster to have it (don't know if he is or not, I haven't read through RotRL), it is not a valid assumption to say that he is. And even if they have nowhere to transcribe it from, you could take it as one of your spells gained on leveling up.
You can only take the spell if you know about the spell. If he's the only one who has it, reasonably you don't know it, and it would be a totally 'new' spell that needs researching from scratch, not just one of the automatics.
It's like saying I invented a totally new spell yesterday and you can take it as your automatic level up, despite never having seen it used or even heard about it.
==Aelryinth
I thought I made it pretty clear already that it does state that in RotRls.
And the leveling spells are spells that are researched, DMs purview, no way in hell that's going to happen.
The leveling spells are NOT researched by the normal rules where a DM must evaluate how balanced it is because it is an entirely new spell that does not exist in the current incarnation of the rules, otherwise there would be hefty fees and time investments. That is simply a fluff thing - you a free to rule otherwise in your games, but that is your personal choice as a DM.
And what determines if one knows about the spell? Would you require a Kn Arcana check? Kn History perhaps?
You are restricting access. That does not cure a disease. The spell is imbalanced if used in certain ways, one of which is fabricate. I am not arguing that. I would argue restricting based on what they "know about", as there are no explicit rules saying the character must have knowledge - he presumably reaches that point on his own.
One kind of goofy thing about the materials for fabricate being an actual material component rather than just the target of the spell, is that I think that means you have to decide what a scroll of fabricate is going to make when you scribe it. Can't carry one around to fabricate whatever you feel like at the time!
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not.
This is a case where calling the target of the spell material components backfires.
I'd rule that you could NOT use a scribed spell to 'store' goods this way, on account of the instantaneous duration of the spell. Therefore they must be on hand when the scroll as read, being as much target as components.
Certainly there is no scroll that stores a skill check from the maker.
As having a 'preprogrammed' scroll violates at least two other rules, I'm opposed to this. Not a bad visualization, of course, but I think such a scroll would be a unique item, not standard.
BTW, if you rule it like this, exactly how do you determine the cost of a Fabricate 1/day item? That it can only Fab 50 gp of iron? Because scrolls and magic items follow the same rules.
By this mechanic, you could make the Fabricate, pay for the 50 raw material components, and then simply keep making the original item over and over again for pure profit.
So, start with 1667 gp of raw diamond, x 50. Every day, make a 5000 gp cut diamond out of nothing. Pure profit in 20 days, and a Raise Dead gem for nothing every day thereafter. SOme Church would have done this just by rote, as it is a straight wealth magnifier. Start with 1000 gp gems, leverage up, endless amounts of 5000 gp diamonds soon after.
So, I suggest NOT using this 'stores raw material' interpretation.
I mean, seriously, scrap together 9000gp + 225,000 gp in raw materials, and you're making adamantine full plate armor every day for the rest of existence. You want to really break the spell, you go ahead and do this.
==Aelryinth
Wondrous items don't follow the same rules for components that scrolls do.
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require.
That's part of what informed my opinion that the DM should just veto fabricate WIs as the costing is impossible to determine.
But, as written, the store-stuff-in-a-fabricate scroll doesn't set any precedent for a wondrous item.
Now... staves are a bigger problem.
You're looking at the wrong place.
Special rules, very bottom, subnote 4.
If unlimited uses/day, determine material component cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has limited uses/day, determine cost as if it had 50 charges.
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In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.
Spell has material component cost Add directly into price of item per charge 4 Wand of stoneskin
4 If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.
From:http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation
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And I properly noted that a 1/day item would need to cover the material cost 50 times.
==Aelryinth
Yeah in that case it just falls into the DM veto clause IMO.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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For those having issues with detect magic finding magical traps:
First, I suggest interpreting the spell very strictly. Remember it doesn't actually make magic things glow, it just tells the caster what 5 foot square they are in, after three rounds. So you might know there is an abjuration effect present, and what it does(with a skill check), but you don't know it's exact location, or how it's triggered or how to bypass it. Also remember that the caster has to be out front while detecting or else he gets false positives from all the party's equipment.
Second, if you want to be a bit mean about it, throw in a few magic traps whose triggers are being within the area of effect of a divination. Now detect magic sets off the trap.
For those having issues with detect magic finding magical traps:
First, I suggest interpreting the spell very strictly. Remember it doesn't actually make magic things glow, it just tells the caster what 5 foot square they are in, after three rounds. So you might know there is an abjuration effect present, and what it does(with a skill check), but you don't know it's exact location, or how it's triggered or how to bypass it. Also remember that the caster has to be out front while detecting or else he gets false positives from all the party's equipment.
Second, if you want to be a bit mean about it, throw in a few magic traps whose triggers are being within the area of effect of a divination. Now detect magic sets off the trap.
Where are you getting the 5 foot square thing from.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura emanates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).
If the location of the aura is precise enough to describe it as "emanates from a magic item" then you should probably know pretty much exactly where it is.
In any case, it certainly doesn't say 5 foot square. It says location.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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For those having issues with detect magic finding magical traps:
First, I suggest interpreting the spell very strictly. Remember it doesn't actually make magic things glow, it just tells the caster what 5 foot square they are in, after three rounds. So you might know there is an abjuration effect present, and what it does(with a skill check), but you don't know it's exact location, or how it's triggered or how to bypass it. Also remember that the caster has to be out front while detecting or else he gets false positives from all the party's equipment.
Second, if you want to be a bit mean about it, throw in a few magic traps whose triggers are being within the area of effect of a divination. Now detect magic sets off the trap.
Where are you getting the 5 foot square thing from.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura emanates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).If the location of the aura is precise enough to describe it as "emanates from a magic item" then you should probably know pretty much exactly where it is.
In any case, it certainly doesn't say 5 foot square. It says location.
A location in this game is pretty much defined as the 5 foot square a thing occupies. Nonvisual senses like Scent and Blindsense let you pinpoint the location of invisible creatures, but that only gives you the 5 foot square - that is defined as knowing their location.
Now you could certainly interpret detect magic to mean more specific than that - I'm just pointing out that there is a rules justification for "location" to be somewhat vague. This way of ruling it could be useful if you feel the spell is overpowered.
Under my way, let's say a caster casts detect magic and looks at an area with a wooden desk with a drawer. In the drawer is a symbol spell of some type and a hidden compartment with a magic ring in it. There is also a secret trap door in the floor lined with lead with a potion in it.
After three rounds, the caster knows that there are two auras in a certain five foot space. A skill check for each could identify the school of the symbol spell, but not the specific spell. Similarly you could ID the school of the ring, but not its specific properties, as you must be able to examine it closely per Spellcraft. The potion is protected from detection by the lead lining.
Obviously you don't have to rule it this way, but I find it helps reign in a still very useful cantrip.
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For those having issues with detect magic finding magical traps:
First, I suggest interpreting the spell very strictly. Remember it doesn't actually make magic things glow, it just tells the caster what 5 foot square they are in, after three rounds. So you might know there is an abjuration effect present, and what it does(with a skill check), but you don't know it's exact location, or how it's triggered or how to bypass it. Also remember that the caster has to be out front while detecting or else he gets false positives from all the party's equipment.
Second, if you want to be a bit mean about it, throw in a few magic traps whose triggers are being within the area of effect of a divination. Now detect magic sets off the trap.
Personally I just handle this by stating that most competent trap designers are aware of Detect Magic, and incorporate lead sheets in their trap design. You might be able to detect the burning hands trap the level 2 kobold sorcerer cobbled together, but most traps past CR 4 will be harder to detect.
The same methods are occasionally but less frequently used for hidden doors and hidden treasure.
I see it roughly akin to a Greenland plumber being aware of the dangers of sub-zero temperatures and compensating by using plastic and/or insulated pipes to avoid frozen waterworks.
I can imagine casters moving Dancing Lights behind objects, walls and doors and using Detect Magic to check for lead shielding by seeing if the Dancing Lights can be detected behind them.
It won't tell them why the shielding is there, but it might give them information. If the traps were installed after the place was build the entire area probably won't have lead walls, so the areas that do are probably trapped. Likewise for containers with valuable stuff in them and doors with valuable stuff behind them - the interesting stuff is probably shielded.
Is lead common enough to be able to do that? I'm not trying to be facetious, I honestly don't know how common or rare lead is, especially within pathfinder