Swashbuckler build advice


Advice


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I'm trying to build a swashbuckler for Society play. I'm not sure if it is possible/survivable, but I'd like to make a TWF swashbuckler. Any ideas? I know I'd lose out on Precise strike, but would that hamper the build to a crazy degree?

Or would a different class with the amateur swashbuckler feat make more sense?


its not just precise strike that you are giving up its most of the class features

yes another class with amateur swashbuckler would be immensely better


Agreed you are giving up too much damage potential. Other Martials twf better.


kurohyou wrote:

I'm trying to build a swashbuckler for Society play. I'm not sure if it is possible/survivable, but I'd like to make a TWF swashbuckler. Any ideas? I know I'd lose out on Precise strike, but would that hamper the build to a crazy degree?

Or would a different class with the amateur swashbuckler feat make more sense?

Swashbuckler's not kind to the TWF model. You're probably better off taking a class that's built to be friendly to TWF like the Fighter, Ranger, or Slayer, and picking up Amateur Swashbuckler.


Why a TWF swashbuckler? What in that combo are you interested in for coming up with that in the first place. A TWF swash might be a good choice, or be able to be replicated with another class if we know what's drawing you to these choices.


If you want to go dex-based, one level of Swashbuckler (or four levels of Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler if you like to exploit loopholes) can be extremely useful for TWF, but there's not a lot of reason to go farther. The Two Weapon Warrior Fighter arguably has the best TWF mechanics, but there are plenty of potential options. Even some of the 3/4BABs like Warpriests or very martial Clerics can work well if done right.


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So, I guess the reason that I was looking at TWF for a swashbuckler is because I have this vision of an extremely fast swashbuckler character (multiple attacks per round) that uses his blade(s) instead of armor to defeat attacks against him and TWFing a swashbuckler seemed like the best way to accomplish this due to the extra attacks/round.

I suppose going Monk with the Kata Master archetype could suit the flavor as well, but without burning a feat for EWP, I don't see any really stellar crit generating weapons (i.e. 18-20) in the monk list. This would also require using a feat to get improved critical 2 levels later than the swashbuckler gives it for free.

Thanks for all the feedback as well.

EDIT: Also what other class feature besides precise strike would TWFing a swashbuckler prevent from working?


Having two weapons does nothing for improving your ability to parry other than feeding you more panache. Kata Master is pretty great in theory, but since you're not using flurry of blows when you're parrying it's kind of weak.

There are plenty of interesting ways to create a lightly armored or unarmored 'blade master', both magical and not, but if going for Swashbuckler you're better off just using one weapon. Something like a Swashbuckler 1/ Sacred Fist can be very potent - you don't actually need any charisma to use panache stuff if you just take Extra Panache once.


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I'd look to the Daring Champion. You get the Swashbuckler feel with the static bonuses that make TWF worthwhile.

Alternately, build a standard, single-weapon Swashbuckler. However, when you can afford it get a +1 Answering weapon and use that in your off-hand. Never attack with it normally (thus you maintain Precise Strike), but use it for you Parry/Riposte attacks as a +5 weapon that only costs 8k. That gets the 'blades to deflect attacks' feel.

Dipping is also a very real option, but others have covered that part fine.


Here's an interesting combo, which some people may argue doesn't work :P

- 1 LVL Swashbuckler (for Finesse with Falcata), rest Rondelero Duelist Fighter
- Go Half-Elf, Tengu or Human to gain EWP Falcata (best weapon in game)
- Pick up TWF feats, initially TWFing with your buckler
- At Rondelero Duelist Fighter 5, you gain:

Quote:

Strong Swing (Ex)

At 5th level, a buckler duelist gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. With a full-attack action, a buckler duelist may alternate between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack. This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.

- To my reading, this allows you to TWF, switching your buckler hits for Falcata attacks. Mind you are not gaining attacks or incurring a penalty through this feature (which is prohibited), you are gaining attacks and a penalty through TWF, all you are doing with this feature is replacing your off-hand attacks while perfoming a full-attack action. Basically giving you a ghetto flurry with the Falcata at character level 6.

I imagine there's some interpretations that may disagree with me, but I think it works by RAW.


Dip one level of magus for spellstrike?


Spellstrike is at level two, and you're not going to get enough spells to make it worthwhile. You have a small handful of really weak (2D6, 4D6 if you drop in Magical Knack) Shocking Grasps, or Frostbites that'll be 1D6+2 nonlethal for two attacks (honestly probably the better option here).

But neither is going to really accomplish much because you can do it so insanely few times per day. To make it worthwhile you might as well just build a Magus.


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Secret Wizard,
Thanks, that rondelero duelist build sounds pretty close to the image in my head. Gonna have to look into how feasible it is and talk about it with my PFS group to see if it's legal. I'm wondering if the crane style chain would work with this since the buckler hand is technically free. Doubt I could get that to work with a reasonable # of feats, but it'd still be pretty cool.


When arguing with your PFS group GM, remember this: it SHOULD be legal. Otherwise, that line of text means NOTHING, because you don't need a class feature to alternate attacks while using a full-attack action. (Link)

If your GM says, for some reason, that you can only use that feature while using TWF to turn your main-hand attacks into off-hand attacks, then you are good to go! Just use your falcata in your off-hand for the SAME result :P

Really, the build should work unless someone is really into RAW-warping RAI.

NOTE: You probably want to progress on Fighter until level 9th, to gain Weapon Training II (you'll notice that Strong Swing does not remove it). It stacks with Strong Swing and it allows you to wear Duelist Gloves. Now *this* I believe is nullified by even the most lenient RAI, but RAW it works :P

Btw, the Shielded Fighter archetype gets the same feature! So you can go with that if you don't want to get Falcata proficiency, AND it has extra bonuses for using Combat Expertise, which works with your Crane Style focus!

Quote:

At 3rd level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC when wielding a shield and fighting defensively, using Combat Expertise, or using total defense. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd. As a swift action, he may share this bonus with one adjacent ally, or half of the bonus (minimum +0) with all adjacent allies, until the beginning of his next turn.

At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels beyond 5th. With a full-attack action, a shielded fighter may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.


Secret Wizard wrote:

When arguing with your PFS group GM, remember this: it SHOULD be legal. Otherwise, that line of text means NOTHING, because you don't need a class feature to alternate attacks while using a full-attack action. (Link)

If your GM says, for some reason, that you can only use that feature while using TWF to turn your main-hand attacks into off-hand attacks, then you are good to go! Just use your falcata in your off-hand for the SAME result :P

Really, the build should work unless someone is really into RAW-warping RAI.

NOTE: You really gain no benefit of staying Fighter beyond level 5. You can progress with your Swashbuckler levels afterwards.

Didn't that archetype come out before it was clear that you could use your shield as a normal weapon? The shield originally said "as an off-hand attack you can bash" thus implying that you could only attack with it while TWF, but then since it was listed as a normal weapon in the weapon list Paizo decided to remove the "as an off-hand" part of it's description. This all means that this archetype was to make sure you could attack with either with no penalties since the thought was you normally couldn't attack with the shield as a "normal" weapon.


Chess Pwn wrote:


Didn't that archetype come out before it was clear that you could use your shield as a normal weapon? The shield originally said "as an off-hand attack you can bash" thus implying that you could only attack with it while TWF, but then since it was listed as a normal weapon in the weapon list Paizo decided to remove the "as an off-hand" part of it's description. This all means that this archetype was to make sure you could attack with either with no penalties since the thought was you normally couldn't attack with the shield as a "normal" weapon.

You are right, but then, there's nothing in the feature that would hinder the "this allows flurry while TWF" reading.


kurohyou wrote:
Gonna have to look into how feasible it is and talk about it with my PFS group to see if it's legal.

I'd be cautious about bringing that level of controversial cheese into PFS, but if you can get away with it more power to you.

If you want to do an actual flurry of blows with a dex-based sword without needing Two-Weapon Fighting and 5 levels of a Fighter archetype, Swashbuckler 1/ Sacred Fist can pick up Crusader's Flurry to use your deity's favored weapon with Flurry of Blows.

As a Sacred Fist you also get swift-action self-buffing with Divine Favor and other divine buffs, as well as the ability to use bonus scaling Sacred Fist deflection and Wisdom AC. You can even build in full Crane Style by 11.


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Yep, I'm fully aware that this may not be society acceptable/need Paizo clarification, but if it isn't, then I just may have to save it for a house game sometime, because this would be pretty fun.

Grand Lodge

I'm starting to like the swashbuckler!!


kurohyou wrote:
Yep, I'm fully aware that this may not be society acceptable/need Paizo clarification, but if it isn't, then I just may have to save it for a house game sometime, because this would be pretty fun.

Here's the arguments I have heard against it:

  • It's not the original intent of the feature. It probably was not, but I'm sure they didn't think about the Arcane Archer shooting Antimagic Fields left and right either. This is not one of the players' concerns.

  • The feat only allows you to replace main-hand attacks that you would do during a normal, non-TWF attack. You could make a flurry with a buckler, but not with a falcata. This one makes no sense, because I would be allowed to make off-hand attacks with my falcata and main-hand attacks with my buckler, replace my main-hand attacks, and then obtain the same final result of a falcata flurry.

  • It's too powerful. You can already flurry with rapiers, scimitars and falchions. This is not particularly out there.

  • It's cheese. So it is, but that doesn't make it illegal.


How are you getting finesse with falcata, it is neither light, nor piercing...


Slashing Grace + at least one level in Swashbuckler.


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yep, opens swashbuckler (or Daring Champion) to a much wider array of weapons

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Depending on the feel your going for (and your point buy) a paladin with amateur swashbuckler could be a strong option... Musetouched aasimar is a nice thematic fit with the perfect stat array for this type. You'll have good Cha so you can build up some panache throughout the day. Smite is pretty much the best thing ever for TWF- the +Cha to hit more than makes up for TWF penalties, and you get that sweet sweet bonus damage on every swing (take oath of vengeance for even more smitey goodness).

you'd probably be even better though with a 1 level dip in swashbuckler... Add more skills, shore up your weak save, get more panache each day, get finesse for free, and open up some options for potentially taking slashing grace...

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