What I get out of that is essentially
"Compared to a fighter you trade out marginal amounts of dmg, AC, and bravery for more skill points, class bonuses to skills, and a good reflex save.
Update on my own math: I cant find any Slayer archetypes that grant straight damage buffs, while at the proposed level 20/falchion build, the Two Handed Fighter archetype adds a solid ~300 damage per 20 attacks to the fighter who was already slightly ahead
Compared to a fighter you trade out marginal amounts of dmg, AC, and bravery for more skill points, class bonuses to skills, and a good reflex save.
Yeah basically. At low and mid level the Slayer can pull ahead in damage if theyre sneak attacking, but at low to mid level they still have to actually TRY to study targets and line up sneak attacks, so they have to plan and strategize a lot more than the fighter to deal damage at or above their level.
Weapon training is only a +4/+4? I could have sworn it was a +5/+5...
I mean, Mighty Rage is a +4/+4, and I remember hearing that Fighters were +1/+1 over Barbarians with their favored weapons...
I thought Figthers at least had accuracy over Barbarians, but it seems that I was wrong.
@Kaouse
They may have also been talking about an archetype. Weapon Master gives you +5. Brawler too. There may be others.
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The comparisons between optimized Rangers and Slayers can be pretty eye opening though.
To put it in video game terms, Slayers get dunked on by Rangers.
Being able to wear heavy adamantine with very little penalty for the DR 3/- is also a nice part of fighter.
I really would like to see a damage comparison of the fighter and the slayer. I suspect the fighter would come out ahead. One sneak attack die per every 3 levels isn't the greatest thing ever. Sneak attack is already pretty limited and the slayer's doesn't hit that hard when it does hit.
Meanwhile the fighter has his two-handed falcata critz-plosion build.
assuming the Fighter and the Slayer both spec for damage as hard as possible...
At level 20 with all their goodies and no archetypes, they both can carry a two-handed weapon with 1.5 Strength Bonus, Magic Weapon Enhancement, the same sorts of weapons (for these purposes we'll say a Falchion toting Improved Critical), with the same BAB meaning the same Power Attack bonuses.
in damage the fighter has +4 from qualifying for Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization, +4 from Weapon Training, and a potential +2 from Gloves of Dueling boosting their Weapon Training. And at level 20, Weapon Mastery significantly boosts damage output with their 15-20 crit range, taking their average damage from 28 hits worth of damage per 20 actual hits to 32 hits worth of damage per 20 actual hits. For accuracy they get +1 from Greater Weapon Focus, +4 from Weapon Training, and a potential +2 from the Gloves. Totaling +10 damage that the slayer can't access, +7 to hit that the Slayer cant access, and a difficult to quantify boost to critical hit damage (and of course qualification for the mighty Critical Mastery)
the Slayer, for damage, has an average of +21 from 6d6 Sneak Attack that isnt multiplied on a critical hit and cant harm anything immune to precision damage, and +5 from Studied Target. For accuracy, they have the +5 from Studied Target and +4 from Greater Quarry. So assuming the Slayer procs everything they need to, +26 damage and +9 to hit, though most of that damage is less effectual than true weapon damage due to being impossible to multiply.
So, whipping up a pair of very similar quick builds in my head,...
Shouldn't the Slayer get a Greatsword version of Assassin's blade or Sword of Subtlety?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/as sassin-s-bladehttp://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/sw ord-of-subtlety
Named items won't help much. They won't scale in PFS. And probably won't scale in many home games.
Shouldn't the Slayer get a Greatsword version of Assassin's blade or Sword of Subtlety?
checked them out and factored them in; Sword of Subtlety, in a theoretical falchion version, brings the Slayer's damage up to 1649 compared to the no-archetype fighter's 1581, but would be a fair bit costlier than the gloves of dueling and so potentially allows the fighter's weapon or gear to edge out in some other way. Assassin's blade just allows the Slayer to actually DEAL 525 (625 with a Sword of Subtlety) of that damage consistently to begin with. If they cant sneak attack, they suddenly lose to the fighter be a tremendous amount in raw damage.
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Weapon training is only a +4/+4? I could have sworn it was a +5/+5...
I mean, Mighty Rage is a +4/+4, and I remember hearing that Fighters were +1/+1 over Barbarians with their favored weapons...
I thought Figthers at least had accuracy over Barbarians, but it seems that I was wrong.
Technically it's +4/+4, but at higher levels from a practical perspective it's +6/+6. Every fighter ever picks up Gloves of Dueling.
Edit: Also - in comparison to both the slayer & barbarian - remember that the fighter gets access to the weapon specialization feats & greater weapon focus - giving another point of accuracy to them.
I'm curious if the Urban+Skirmisher Ranger may actually be a better slayer than the slayer.
When comparing fighter damage to slayer/barbarian damage I feel a case needs to be made for weapon specialization and weapon focus, along with their graters.
That extra +2/+4 puts them slightly ahead.
Fighter is still the king of damage, even without archetypes like weapon master.
Also rangers are so far superior to slayers it's not even worth discussing.
Update on my own math: I cant find any Slayer archetypes that grant straight damage buffs, while at the proposed level 20/falchion build, the Two Handed Fighter archetype adds a solid ~300 damage per 20 attacks to the fighter who was already slightly ahead
Compared to a fighter you trade out marginal amounts of dmg, AC, and bravery for more skill points, class bonuses to skills, and a good reflex save.Yeah basically. At low and mid level the Slayer can pull ahead in damage if theyre sneak attacking, but at low to mid level they still have to actually TRY to study targets and line up sneak attacks, so they have to plan and strategize a lot more than the fighter to deal damage at or above their level.
The weapon master archetype is also not bad especially for TWF builds. They get the weapon training bonus early, and I think it ends up being one higher. They still get to use the gloves, and the crit multiplier goes up by one.
Slayers make awesome religious warriors that aren't divinely empowered. Deliverer archetype rocks!
Reasonably simple calculation on to-hit damage bonuses:
I am assuming STR30, +5 weapon, and Weapon Focus / Spec. For ease of calculation I'll just calculate for a single one-handed weapon, given that other modifiers will be identical among both classes. I'll skip on things like Gloves of Dueling as well for now, just because I don't think the Slayer has any similar gear, offhand. Otherwise, it's +2 on attack / damage in the fighter's favour.
Fighter
Attack Bonus: BAB20 + 10 (Str) +5 (Weapon) +4 (Weapon Training) +2 (Greater Weapon Focus) = +41
Damage: 10 (Str) +5 (Weapon) +4 (Weapon Training) +4 (Greater Weapon Specialisation) = +23Slayer
Attack Bonus: BAB20 +10 (Str) +5 (Weapon) +1 (Weapon Focus) = +36
Damage Bonus: 10 (Str) +5 (Weapon) = +15Now, if the slayer can sneak attack, he adds 6d6, or an average value of +21 damage to each hit, bringing him to a total damage bonus of +36, or 13 more than the fighter.
Now, given the fact that he's at a full -5 attack bonus compared to the fighter, needs to enable Sneak Attack first and is still only +13 average damage ahead...
But, of course, there is Studied Target.If he can apply that bonus, he's on par regarding Attack Bonus, -3 points behind on damage without sneak, and +18 points ahead with sneak.
So, from a strict combat perspective, I'd say he's trading defenses / movement in heavier armour for damage. And even that only if he manages to sneak attack, which will usually require flanking - if not, he's still lagging slightly behind.
Oh, and at 20, the fighter capstone blows the slayer DPR out of the water, still.
Now, I can see one making an argument for the fighter becoming less attractive compared to the slayer in regards to say, skill points, but damage? Circumstantial, and you're giving up full movement in a full plate with a max dex of +5 (+7 if mithral) for it.
The Slayer can use Studied Target as a swift action at 7th level and there are no target restrictions for the ability, so I think it's fair to say that the slayer will always benefit from the ability. So that brings up the slayer's attack bonus equal to the fighter's, and closes the gap so damage bonus is only -3.
Technically it's +4/+4, but at higher levels from a practical perspective it's +6/+6. Every fighter ever picks up Gloves of Dueling.
Well, most fighters. There are a few good archetypes that give up weapon training, so GoD are a no-go.
The Slayer can use Studied Target as a swift action at 7th level and there are no target restrictions for the ability, so I think it's fair to say that the slayer will always benefit from the ability. So that brings up the slayer's attack bonus equal to the fighter's, and closes the gap so damage bonus is only -3.Always? No. But certainly in a vast majority of circumstances. An often theoretical difference, I know, but it can make a difference - for instance, that swift action could make a difference between adding Arcane Strike on top of that or not.
Slayers don't qualify for Arcane Strike anymore, not even with racial SLAs.
Slayers don't qualify for Arcane Strike anymore, not even with racial SLAs.The Slayer can use Studied Target as a swift action at 7th level and there are no target restrictions for the ability, so I think it's fair to say that the slayer will always benefit from the ability. So that brings up the slayer's attack bonus equal to the fighter's, and closes the gap so damage bonus is only -3.Always? No. But certainly in a vast majority of circumstances. An often theoretical difference, I know, but it can make a difference - for instance, that swift action could make a difference between adding Arcane Strike on top of that or not.
no dude, it's for those slayer's 7 bard/any arcane caster 13, maybe with something that lets him fool Arcane strike to think he has a 15 caster level.
Always? No. But certainly in a vast majority of circumstances. An often theoretical difference, I know, but it can make a difference - for instance, that swift action could make a difference between adding Arcane Strike on top of that or not.
Sure there are corner cases, but I think the slayer will benefit from it often enough to count it in with the calculations.
... and I did, I just mentioned it separately for precision's sake. What exactly are you arguing for?
Oh, it just seemed that you were lumping it in with sneak attack damage as being equally situational.
Even ifFighters get Gloves of Dueling, they still can't compete with a Barbarian.
For one, a +3 Furious Courageous weapon for a Barbarian is equivalent in price to a +5 weapon for a Fighter, but gives the Barbarian the same benefit as a free Gloves of Dueling. If the Barbarian spends money to increase his weapon enchantment beyond +3, then he can overtakethe Fighter even with his Fighter only feats.
Of course none of this even takes into account Reckless Abandon, which increases the Barbarian's attack rolls at the cost of AC, basically nullifying Power Attack penalties.
Right, sorry. We should keep this about the Slayer. Looking over him some more it seems that he's a really good combatant with full BAB and Studied Target. Studied Target is basically infinite use, right? Once you get it down to a swift, it's pretty effcient, as is Improved Quarry (though that seems to have a time limit). He's definitely better than the Fighter, though Ranger beats both of them with Instant Enemy.
Ranger being one of my favorite martials, I kinda wanna try the Slayer out now.
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Even ifFighters get Gloves of Dueling, they still can't compete with a Barbarian.
For one, a +3 Furious Courageous weapon for a Barbarian is equivalent in price to a +5 weapon for a Fighter, but gives the Barbarian the same benefit as a free Gloves of Dueling. If the Barbarian spends money to increase his weapon enchantment beyond +3, then he can overtakethe Fighter even with his Fighter only feats.
Of course none of this even takes into account Reckless Abandon, which increases the Barbarian's attack rolls at the cost of AC, basically nullifying Power Attack penalties.
um I'm not sure if your math is right here.
In any case, the slayer is no where near over powered.
It's a well designed class that functions in and out of combat where before you had to pick one or the other. That's what drives people crazy.
Nice job getting the reference! Guys, this guy...this guy gets it. I love this guy.you failed to like your own posts.
I didn't want to seem narcissistic.
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So many posts got removed, I was scared for a moment that my very important contribution had been lost. Then I realized the thread had just turned wonky because of the insane amount of posts that had to be removed.
Look at Page 3, my friends. A terrible battle was fought here. Now, only shapes to see, perhaps, not to touch.
Wow. And I did not even notice that this thread was in danger of having threads removed. My moose senses don't seem to work right.
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So many posts got removed, I was scared for a moment that my very important contribution had been lost. Then I realized the thread had just turned wonky because of the insane amount of posts that had to be removed.
Look at Page 3, my friends. A terrible battle was fought here. Now, only shapes to see, perhaps, not to touch.
You people kept feeding the regenerating giant. I, and hopefully others, did what any decent forumite should do and flagged every one of his posts for 'breaking other guidelines', i.e. beign a regenerating giant.
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What do you mean "you people"? I wasn't involved in this! Also, wow, racist, like kobolds care who kills them.
But here, I got you a hand of the mage so you can pat yourself on the back more easily. ;)
HA!