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So in my campaign I've created a sidestory for one of my players involving the personal goals of his blackblade. Long story short that goal consists (among other things) of collecting four other specific blackblades wielded by other magi. Since it's intended to be something that he completes over the course of the campaign, I created the four other magi at various levels - 9th, two 11th, and 18th. The thing that sticks out to me is that the 18th level magus doesn't really do all that more damage than the other magi.
From what I can see part of the issue is that spellstrike + shocking grasp tops out at 10th level, and there really aren't any more damaging spells to spellstrike with. But the other thing is that it seems that outside of spellstriking the magus just doesn't do a whole lot of damage. Perhaps it's just the way I've built the characters, since two of them are dervish dancing dex builds, but even a str-based magus is only going to get so much out of power attacking as a 3/4th BAB class.
If anyone's played a high level magus (15+), I'd love to hear your thoughts on how they're most effective at those levels.
(If I can figure out a way to efficiently upload the 18th level magus without typing out the entire character, I will)
Unfortunately true, the magus is a second rate, more durable wizard at those levels, or a not very good melee type. There are a couple of good tricks though; If you can get the save up somehow, Disintegrate with the close range arcana (or similar) does impressive damage, and the reflection arcana is immediate-action save yourself.
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Is precise strike a feat? Class ability?
Attained via new arcana. Flamboyant Arcana, then Arcane Deed to get a swashbuckler deed of your choice.
(Which means I'm going to need to revisit the characters I created, since they were all made before ACG came out.)
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Precise Strike is a deed of the Swashbuckler class that the Magus can gain access to using the "Arcane Deed" Arcana (arcana being a class feature of the Magus).
EDIT: Gosh darnit.
On another note, have you tried Force Punch? It caps out around level 15 I think. Also, you're definitely going to want the Bane Blade and Reflection Magus Arcana (Reflection at 15, Bane at 18). Bane is pretty much one of the last big bonuses the Magus gets, but boy is it useful.
Out of curiosity, Kaouse, why do you prefer picking up Reflection first? Bane struck me as the automatic take at 15 once I realized just how awesome Bane was, so I'm curious. Reflection always looked iffy to me just based on the huge costs involved.
Yeah I don't care for Reflection either. Since it states in the power it works like spell turning, it really cuts down on the number of spells you can use it on.
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I prefer Reflection first because most Magus builds don't have the greatest saves, and Reflection can really help in those cases. Plus it can deal with a lot of stuff that doesn't offer saves, like Geas. As a class that lives on the offense, some defenses, even ones as limited as Reflection, go a long way IMHO.
As an aside, I kinda really like where the DEX Kensai is now. Between Canny Defenses and Precise Strike, you actually have abilities that scale every level, plus actual class features that aren't just small upgrades to what you already have (case in point: Armor Proficiency, which also means you can't upgrade your armor until you get Heavy, or you'll be wasting money). More attack bonuses wouldn't hurt though.
All we need now is a Magus that can rage & select rage powers... >.>
Precise Strike is a deed of the Swashbuckler class that the Magus can gain access to using the "Arcane Deed" Arcana (arcana being a class feature of the Magus).
EDIT: Gosh darnit.
On another note, have you tried Force Punch? It caps out around level 15 I think. Also, you're definitely going to want the Bane Blade and Reflection Magus Arcana (Reflection at 15, Bane at 18). Bane is pretty much one of the last big bonuses the Magus gets, but boy is it useful.
A 15d4 Force Punch actually has the same max damage as a 10d6 Shocking Grasp so for raw DPR it isn't a very good spell. The push back is good, but not for a Magus.
Shocking grasp loosing power after level 10 is a good argument in the old frostbite vs. Shocking grasp. In my not terrible extensive experience with high level Magi they can take what ever the game throws at them at least as good as other martials.
Yes, you cannot nessesarely keep doing, what you have been doing since level one, in every encounter, but that is a feature not a bug.
Shocking grasp loosing power after level 10 is a good argument in the old frostbite vs. Shocking grasp. In my not terrible extensive experience with high level Magi they can take what ever the game throws at them at least as good as other martials.
Yes, you cannot nessesarely keep doing, what you have been doing since level one, in every encounter, but that is a feature not a bug.
I agree, it's just that there's nothing that comes along on the magus's spell list that's especially better than those spells. At level 7 you get vampiric touch, which is a great spell, but doesn't do any more damage than an intensified shocking grasp. 4th level doesn't have any spells worth spellstriking with. Once you get to 13th level and 5th level spells you finally get corrosive consumption, but that's not that much of an upgrade - 105 damage over 3 rounds, and the target can negate a lot of it if it really wants to. And once the magus gets 6th level spells she discovers there aren't any spells of that level on her list that she can use with spellstrike at all.
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I agree, it's just that there's nothing that comes along on the magus's spell list that's especially better than those spells. At level 7 you get vampiric touch, which is a great spell, but doesn't do any more damage than an intensified shocking grasp. 4th level doesn't have any spells worth spellstriking with. Once you get to 13th level and 5th level spells you finally get corrosive consumption, but that's not that much of an upgrade - 105 damage over 3 rounds, and the target can negate a lot of it if it really wants to. And once the magus gets 6th level spells she discovers there aren't any spells of that level on her list that she can use with spellstrike at all.Shocking grasp loosing power after level 10 is a good argument in the old frostbite vs. Shocking grasp. In my not terrible extensive experience with high level Magi they can take what ever the game throws at them at least as good as other martials.
Yes, you cannot nessesarely keep doing, what you have been doing since level one, in every encounter, but that is a feature not a bug.
Empowered Frostbite does (1d6+20)X1,5 with no effort at all at level 20 and cost only one arcane point to recall. And the extra attack you get at level 15 is a big deal if you attack touch AC and that have been a option since level 9. with the coming of ACG magi got level to dam from level 3 in most cases(7 for blackblades).
I also think it is ok that you dont out damage the barbarian when you dont use Spellstrike. But with weapon spec, arcane pool and(pehaps precise strike if you use ACG) you should be quite good. Also if you use Frostbite you wont need to do a lot of attacking outside spellstrike.
Empowered Frostbite does (1d6+20)X1,5 with no effort at all at level 20 and cost only one arcane point to recall. And the extra attack you get at level 15 is a big deal if you attack touch AC and that have been a option since level 9. with the coming of ACG magi got level to dam from level 3 in most cases(7 for blackblades).
I also think it is ok that you dont out damage the barbarian when you dont use Spellstrike. But with weapon spec, arcane pool and(pehaps precise strike if you use ACG) you should be quite good. Also if you use Frostbite you wont need to do a lot of attacking outside spellstrike.
Not measuring a high level magus against a barbarian or any other class; I'm measuring it against a lower level magus, which is why I made the thread. When I compared the 18th level magus to the other magi I made and against the player magus, it didn't seem that the 18th level magus did a whole lot more damage. At least not compared to the difference between a 9th level barbarian vs. an 18th level barbarian, for example.
Not measuring a high level magus against a barbarian or any other class; I'm measuring it against a lower level magus, which is why I made the thread. When I compared the 18th level magus to the other magi I made and against the player magus, it didn't seem that the 18th level magus did a whole lot more damage. At least not compared to the difference between a 9th level barbarian vs. an 18th level barbarian, for example.Empowered Frostbite does (1d6+20)X1,5 with no effort at all at level 20 and cost only one arcane point to recall. And the extra attack you get at level 15 is a big deal if you attack touch AC and that have been a option since level 9. with the coming of ACG magi got level to dam from level 3 in most cases(7 for blackblades).
I also think it is ok that you dont out damage the barbarian when you dont use Spellstrike. But with weapon spec, arcane pool and(pehaps precise strike if you use ACG) you should be quite good. Also if you use Frostbite you wont need to do a lot of attacking outside spellstrike.
I am prepared to belive it when you say it. But it is hard to undestand. Either you Can one round a tarn linnorm at level 9 or we doing things in different ways. More attacks higher damage pr attack and better chance to hit should give more damage. And on top of that utility and survival chances also get boosted.
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Stall compared to what? people focusing on Conjuration in general can do damage as well with minimum investment, like let's gather 4 Bralani azata (Summon Monster 6+sacred summons+superior summoning feats for a divine caster for example), have all of them use lightning bolt , you are looking at 24d6. I didn't even bother looking for an actually optimized monster in the example above or some creature with stronger spells or caster levels for high levels.
But well in general, mostly look at your group dynamics and adapt as necessary.
Stall compared to what? people focusing on Conjuration in general can do damage as well with minimum investment, like let's gather 4 Bralani azata (Summon Monster 6+sacred summons+superior summoning feats for a divine caster for example), have all of them use lightning bolt , you are looking at 24d6. I didn't even bother looking for an actually optimized monster in the example above or some creature with stronger spells or caster levels for high levels.
But well in general, mostly look at your group dynamics and adapt as necessary.
How Does this comment make sense, in this conversation?
A 15d4 Force Punch actually has the same max damage as a 10d6 Shocking Grasp so for raw DPR it isn't a very good spell. The push back is good, but not for a Magus.Precise Strike is a deed of the Swashbuckler class that the Magus can gain access to using the "Arcane Deed" Arcana (arcana being a class feature of the Magus).
EDIT: Gosh darnit.
On another note, have you tried Force Punch? It caps out around level 15 I think. Also, you're definitely going to want the Bane Blade and Reflection Magus Arcana (Reflection at 15, Bane at 18). Bane is pretty much one of the last big bonuses the Magus gets, but boy is it useful.
I keep on forgetting that Force Punch uses d4 instead of d6 (While the equivalently leveled wizard spell Battering Blast does up to 20d6 without putting the caster in touch range >.>). That said, using it to push away enemies to prevent them from full-attacking you isn't a bad idea.
At higher levels, you can Quicken Bladed Dash in, get a free attack, Full attack with spell combat and them push them away with a Spellstrike Force Punch (or just Bladed dash out of there, but you do more damage with Force Punch). That's about as many attacks as a fighter, without having to be in melee range of your opponent at a level where Full Attack = death.
An Intensified Maximized Shocking Grasp with Spell Lineage trait is a 4th level spell doing 60 damage flat, and how many can a higher level Magus cast?
How about an Empowered one for another +5d6 out of the 6th level slot?
Buying Elemental affinity to change the damage type to something the foe is vulnerable to?
There are always alternatives. S. Grasp is simply a great spell.
==Aelryinth
Close combat arcana opens up some new options later on, particularly ray of exhaustion. Also, gloves of spellstrike = win. Three times a day, sure, but being able to cast aoes through spellstrike - again, options = good. Most importantly, you can get spellblending to start sprinkling in some choice wizard spells, or spells that can focus your favorite options/targets (like dimensional anchor - no more teleport escape, mr. wizard)
Touch of slime, Enervation, Siphon Magic, or if you like having a great toolkit spell not reliant on spellstrikes, Contingency scroll. Dozens of buffs and utilities that are mild on a wizard/sorcerer, but dangerous as hell on a front liner/mobile meleer (Shadowstep, hostile juxtaposition, or Vampiric Shadow Shield).
Magus has a lot of options, being a hybrid class; on the low end everyone raves about shocking grasp - but the build doesn't end once that maxes out, nor is that the one-size fits all solution (cast it twice {edit: or even 6 times or whatever, but now you've got limited other spells] then you're useless? Why? If your dm likes to set you up with multiple fights, you're either useless in half the fights or you're gassing out just before a bbeg, and praying your one big spell is a killer)
They get access to deeds, or fighter feats, or heavy armor casting, or wizard spells, or free-application, stacking metamagic feats, or.. well, go down the list. Add some or all of the above. Their arcana list is far more varied than, say investigator inspirations, swashbuckler/gunslinger deeds, hell, even rage powers.
If damage is all you're after in a magus, then you can still do so after level 10. That's why you've got all those level 3+ spell slots. Just try out some of the *other* touch and ray spells, I promise, the first time you slap exhaustion onto some bbeg, and he gets that -6 to str/dex and 1/2 speed (and no runs or charges) you'll find some higher level uses for them.
Well, given, ray of E is somewhat specific, but I've seen it shut down critters and the like that have low forts but were otherwise resistant to elemental damage - it's definitely a rogue killer (particularly when used against the smaller races, or critters with low str: watch 'em drop because they simply can't carry anything over 10 lbs.), but it's more about the concept than to also claim it's a jack of all trades spell, the way folks preach on about shocking grasp - not that I haven't done the same, i mean, level 10 spellstrike empowered intensified shocking grasp is a ridonkeylous pure damager, no doubt - but the point is more that there are other ways to end a fight than to pump out that same spell over and over again - and if that is the one trick pony, you'd think an enemy pc would start packing some resistances before they take a shot on the PC.
As for the spellstrike gloves - yeah reread the final words :
"The glove can only affect spells that normally affect one or more creatures at a range greater than “touch” (such as slow), not rays or other created effects. The altered spell only affects the creature attacked (any other targets normally allowed by the spell are lost"
Which is my bad - but which still allows for some nastier spells like suffocation for example, once you can spellblend a couple wizzy spells.
Anyway, particularly for kensai, unless a GM allows for relatively low level -but- high stat enhancements (rocking +8 int items at level 8 or some such silliness), most magus builds lack a large number of spell slots - but nonetheless, you see level 5 magus PCs rocking 4 shocking grasps, all up through their level 2 spells, barring, say 1 bullstrength and 1 shield. Then that character blows half of it in their first fight on some 2 hd orcs - it's just overkill, that could've been put to better use by spending one chill touch spell and getting 3 strikes out of it, or by casting Line in the Sand and stacking AoO's and using trips or the like.
Don't get me wrong, I love that there's a class that isn't entirely reliant on STR that can compete in the melee damage arena, but miss seeing more creative builds like whip/grapple kensais, or twf staff maguses, or necromaguses (ghoul touch is just too funny, even if it does jack up your own party). Spelldancers, myrmidarch/arcane archers, all interesting possibilities. Favorite class in the game, hands down, I wanna see it get some love *outside* of shocking grasp.
Disintegrate does 2d6 per level with a max of 40d6 (needs the spellblending and close range arcana), is a level 6 spell and at level 18 is acceptable as the goto spellstrike spell replacing shocking grasp.
140 in Dam if the fail the save( but they most likely dont). Why not just use a save or loose spell?
Well, one works on undead and construct, the others do not. So depends on what you're fighting.
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I think the thing to focus on is not how much more damage said Magus can do, but rather how much more versatile that damage becomes.
AoE's, for instance, become a lot more potent later on. Cone of Cold, Fire Snake, and Chain Lightning all deal decent amounts of damage. An intensified empowered shocking grasp deals 15d6 damage as a 4th level spell, or commonly a 3rd level spell. While Cone of Cold + Fire Snake are 5th level spells, they deal that damage with AOE. We can assume that the BBEG can get at least two targets in thier AOE's (105 average damage), dealing more damage than a intensified, empowered, and maximized shocking grasp (90 dmg). Chain Lightning makes that even easier, with even more damage.
Another source is buff spells. While the most notable damage boosting buff is haste, Elemental Body can add quite a bit of damage and lasts much longer (As I had previously suspected, you can cast spells while in Elemental Form, as per the Mythic version). Finally, gear itself should be helping at least somewhat. Remember that your half fighter, half wizard, the fighter side's damage scales based on buff and gear in ways that few spells can.
Replicating bursts of damage is not too terribly hard either. With quickdraw, and not a few spell storing weapons, you can theoretically release a stored shocking grasp with every hit (so long as your DM is OK with liberal use of free actions). This is especially true if you have plenty of downtime, allowing you fill your weapons using the Empower and Maximize arcanas. I'm sure others have found other ways to burst through.
You'll remain competitive with full martial damage, while retaining some of the versatility of a wizard. Not bad, but your right, the sharp increase of damage spikes in the "mid levels", though alot of games end around that time.
Basically I think you are missing out on the power of quicken to up a magus's damage.
Screw Power Attack.
You, my friend, have not heard about the Accurate Strike Magus Arcana from Ultimate Combat. Admittedly, it is a little costly in Arcane Pool points, but it's good for using Power Attack in conjunction to all other potential bonuses for when you really need to crank out the damage.
My own magus in PFS stacks Power Attack with the Arcane Strike feat (also using the Dervish Dance feat and wielding a keen scimitar). I do have the traits to go really cheap with Shocking Grasp at 9d6 (currently level 9) without having to spend higher level spell slots. A normal sword swing with PA + AS, before I start buffing myself is at 1d6+14. It's not uncommon for me to get close to 100 damage on a full attack action. If I get some luck and score a crit or two in there, I do break 100. I came close to 200 once during a particularly fortunate string of crits.
Admittedly, I do have some concerns for higher level play as I do want to take that character very far in level. Mainly just figuring out other options besides Grasp cheese, which really isn't too difficult. Good 'ol Chill Touch is there plus there's Frigid Touch. There's also Spellstrike Gloves (or a Magus Arcana) that I can use to deliver some ray spells as melee touch attacks for some nice debuffing potential.
Anyway, the options are there. As someone else stated earlier, flexibility as a Magus is a must if you're trying to be successful. Sometimes it's not always about trying to deal the most damage.
Uhh, I think people are vastly underestimating how much spell perfection and bane blade, both level 15 abilities, ups the Magus's damage.
This. As someone who's played an archery ranger in a campaign with a magus, level 15 was when he suddenly started dealing twice as much damage as me. With quickdraw and a few metamagic rods, baneblade+precise strike+spell perfection does insane piles of damage to absolutely everything.
Hmmm, I see that lots of people have mentioned the Bane Arcana, which would explain things somewhat. The 18th level magus has an archetype that exchanges enhancing your sword with your arcane pool for other abilities, so she can't take the Bane Arcana. I still haven't decided exactly how I feel about magi with Precise Strike, but I'll probably end up giving it to her to make up for lack of Bane.
I for one are not that impressed with bane+2 and 2d6 damage extra at level 15 is Nice but it have a cost and unless you in most figth meet only one race it is not that great. Bane is too one Specific race every time after all.
I dont Think High level magi have damage issues but i wouldent take Bane.
I for one are not that impressed with bane+2 and 2d6 damage extra at level 15 is Nice but it have a cost and unless you in most figth meet only one race it is not that great. Bane is too one Specific race every time after all.
I dont Think High level magi have damage issues but i wouldent take Bane.
You realize that with the Bane arcana you can change what it targets every time you select it right?
You realize that with the Bane arcana you can change what it targets every time you select it right?I for one are not that impressed with bane+2 and 2d6 damage extra at level 15 is Nice but it have a cost and unless you in most figth meet only one race it is not that great. Bane is too one Specific race every time after all.
I dont Think High level magi have damage issues but i wouldent take Bane.
yes if you know what you are figthing and all the enemies in one figth are the same it is +2 and 2d6 more to damage it is Nice but i Can find several other things that a magus can do with that extra arcane point that May be just as great.