Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting [Combat]
Your great physical might allows you to wield two large weapons with ease.Where does one find this feat.
Path of War: Expanded.
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Dervish dance and slashing grace both require you to use the least effective combat method (one weapon, nothing in off hand). Agile drastically increases the cost of your weapon over time. There are significant downsides to using it. If deadly agility were the norm, that changes rather drastically.
Slashing Grace's limitation can be circumvented via Effortless Lace or by TWF with two one-handed weapons (-4 penalty instead of the normal -2).
Path of War: Expanded.Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting [Combat]
Your great physical might allows you to wield two large weapons with ease.Where does one find this feat.
I cant seem to find the expanded path of war is there a link someone could post?
I cant seem to find the expanded path of war is there a link someone could post?Path of War: Expanded.Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting [Combat]
Your great physical might allows you to wield two large weapons with ease.Where does one find this feat.
Path of War: Expanded will be the second book in the Path of War line by Dreamscarred Press. The feat is currently on a playtest document that's been around for a few months. The books projected release is probably late 2015.
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Add in the fact that Power Attack is better (and a more common prerequisite) than its Dex equivalent and you start to see why Dex to dmg is not all that good.Am I missing something that explains why Dex-to-damage and Power Attack have anything to do with one another?
Wearing armor alone means you're not really going to want to dump Strength below the PA minimum. Unless the conversation is about nothing but kensai magi, Power Attack's not especially relevant here.
I'd agree with you that PA isn't really relevant, but not for that reason.
Many Dex builds wear light or no armour - not just kensai magi, but rogues, monks, bards, swashbucklers, etc. Even a mithral breastplate caps your Dex to AC at +5, which is restrictive to higher level Dex-based characters. They're more likely to wear a mithral shirt, which weighs 10 lbs. Weapons might weigh another 8 lbs (rapier, dagger, shortbow, 20 arrows). A Str 10 character can handle another 15 lbs before hitting a medium load at 33 lbs. At lower levels you might have to settle for leather and lose out on a point of AC or two, and you might need to foist off your bedroll and rations on a pack animal or party member until you can afford a handy haversack, but an average str is not a problem for a lightly armoured dex based character. Since Dex to Damage is about reducing MAD, most such characters won't have a 13 Str if they can get away with lower.
PA isn't all that relevant because most dex-based characters won't want it. PA is most damage efficient if you've got a two-handed weapon (this is the most damage-intensive Str build). For a one-hander it's circumstantial, and if you're using light weapons Piranha Strike is better. Aside from the occasional Agile Elven Curve Blade user, dex-based characters won't get enough out of PA to justify the feat and the 13 Str.
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Many Dex builds wear light or no armour - not just kensai magi, but rogues, monks, bards, swashbucklers, etc. Even a mithral breastplate caps your Dex to AC at +5, which is restrictive to higher level Dex-based characters. They're more likely to wear a mithral shirt, which weighs 10 lbs. Weapons might weigh another 8 lbs (rapier, dagger, shortbow, 20 arrows). A Str 10 character can handle another 15 lbs before hitting a medium load at 33 lbs. At lower levels you might have to settle for leather and lose out on a point of AC or two, and you might need to foist off your bedroll and rations on a pack animal or party member until you can afford a handy haversack, but an average str is not a problem for a lightly armoured dex based character. Since Dex to Damage is about reducing MAD, most such characters won't have a 13 Str if they can get away with lower.
Again, I'm going to use my current character as an example, because it's actual play and I haven't done anything that would bend it any special way with regard to this conversation. Right now, my character's encumbrance is 44.5 lbs without his share of the treasure, his alternate costume (I mentioned he's a masked avenger, right?) or even his potions and other consumables (most of which are roughly 1 lb per item). With Str 13 and a masterwork backpack, he's pretty much right at the edge of what his light load can handle. With Str 12 I'd be looking for stuff to drop.
This is pretty much in line with the other Dex-based characters I've made over the years. I feel like Str 7-10 magi and rogues can't actually be tracking encumbrance or they'd not live long enough to reach the levels where you can actually take encumbrance off the table. Don't get me wrong, I don't especially like tracking encumbrance. But it is part of the rules, and if the argument is being put forth that Strength is too weak, when it's probably worth making sure we're not taking away one of the few things Strength does have going for it.
PA isn't all that relevant because most dex-based characters won't want it. PA is most damage efficient if you've got a two-handed weapon (this is the most damage-intensive Str build). For a one-hander it's circumstantial, and if you're using light weapons Piranha Strike is better. Aside from the occasional Agile Elven Curve Blade user, dex-based characters won't get enough out of PA to justify the feat and the 13 Str.
[/shrug] I'll let you know in a couple levels, I suppose.
I've found PA to be useful on my Wolf Rider Hunter. He is armed with a shield and whatever the best 1 handed weapon he can find is. Right now that extra 4 damage is definitely worth it against most foes.
As for why I have him using a shield... His entire schict is to use Crane Wing and bait people into attacking him so his wolf can AoO them. The hunter is AC and HP focused so he doesn't die from the focus he often aquires.
Course we're only level 7 and I'm sure once we start fighting stuff that hits him often I'll be using a 2 handed weapon.
I've found PA to be useful on my Wolf Rider Hunter. He is armed with a shield and whatever the best 1 handed weapon he can find is...
As for why I have him using a shield... His entire schtick is to use Crane Wing and bait people into attacking him so his wolf can AoO them.
...How?
Yeah you need a free hand for Crane Wing.
... and shoot I meant Broken Wing Gambit.
Broken Wing Gambit+Paired Opportunist+Pack Flanking+Outflank is a pretty mean combo
When one of us crits or if one of use gets attacked (we both are using BWG) it provokes an AoO from both of us. We're always flanking since we're a mounted unit. It's honestly pretty sweet. With Greater Magic Fang, Strong Jaw, and acid maw my companion hits ridiculously hard and accurately. Also having animal aspect there to shore up his stats so I can focus on buying wolfie defensive items is gold. Bracers of Arrow deflection, wisdom headband, cloak of resistance, enchanted armor.
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Again, I'm going to use my current character as an example, because it's actual play and I haven't done anything that would bend it any special way with regard to this conversation. Right now, my character's encumbrance is 44.5 lbs without his share of the treasure, his alternate costume (I mentioned he's a masked avenger, right?) or even his potions and other consumables (most of which are roughly 1 lb per item). With Str 13 and a masterwork backpack, he's pretty much right at the edge of what his light load can handle. With Str 12 I'd be looking for stuff to drop.
This is pretty much in line with the other Dex-based characters I've made over the years. I feel like Str 7-10 magi and rogues can't actually be tracking encumbrance or they'd not live long enough to reach the levels where you can actually take encumbrance off the table. Don't get me wrong, I don't especially like tracking encumbrance. But it is part of the rules, and if the argument is being put forth that Strength is too weak, when it's probably worth making sure we're not taking away one of the few things Strength does have going for it.
More anecdotal evidence ahoy:
I have played a Str 9 kitsune bard and our current party has a Str 10 goblin ninja. Neither had a real problem with encumbrance - and not because we don't track it, at least in the early levels before handy haversacks come into play. In fact I recall very carefully calculating how much my bard could carry, and making one or two equipment sacrifices in the process. You don't always need a lot of heavy stuff to survive to level 5, though, and by then the mithral shirt and handy haversack - the two most important items in the encumbrance calculation - should be available unless there's restrictions on available items. Note that my bard could have crafted the haversack herself at level 5 if necessary.
Potions aren't that heavy, though some alchemical items are.
The heaviest things you'll need to survive at early levels, aside from armour, are rations, water, rope, and torches, and cantrips can take care of two of those things. Only one person needs the rope, and I've never seen a party without someone - even if it's an animal companion - with enough strength to do so. With 33 lbs (Str 10) you can carry leather armour, a rapier, three daggers (one silver, one cold iron), a shortbow, 20 arrows, 10 days of rations, a blanket, thieves' tools, and a flask of acid/fire/holy water. Plus the backpack. If you're in or near an urban area you don't need all the rations and maybe not even the blanket.
I had more trouble with encumbrance on my Str 13 Inquisitor even with a mithral breastplate. The difference lay in the survivalist style of the game: we were out in uncharted territory and had to carry many days worth of food, and even with Create Water we needed at least a little extra in case we came across the handful of spots where that didn't work. Bags of holding wouldn't function.
So if you're playing a survival heavy game where bags of holding and pack animals are hard to get, you'll want a good strength. You might also have a harder time in a game where your equipment is very limited, because then you can't choose lighter items. But in many games an average strength is sufficient even for lightly armoured characters.
sorry if this is off topic, actually discussing the feat, it is op simply because this feat exists. It's essentially mythic weapon finesse. So it's a normal feat that is equivalent to a mythic feat. How is that not op?
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sorry if this is off topic, actually discussing the feat, it is op simply because this feat exists. It's essentially mythic weapon finesse. So it's a normal feat that is equivalent to a mythic feat. How is that not op?
Because Mythic is incredibly poorly designed and shouldn't be used as a metric for what's balanced, ever.
In a broader sense, you need to look at the impact something has on the game as a whole, not how it correlates to another release. Just because something was released in Mythic doesn't mean anything similar is OP, just like something can be OP even if it's not Mythic.
sorry if this is off topic, actually discussing the feat, it is op simply because this feat exists. It's essentially mythic weapon finesse. So it's a normal feat that is equivalent to a mythic feat. How is that not op?
Lets look at some feats...
#1 Mythic Weapon Finesse#2 Sacred Geometry
#3 Divine Protection
Guess which one is the weakest of the three? Now which ones are mythic?
The correct answer to both is #1 and THAT shows you that mythic isn't a factor. Someone thought the spiked chain should still an exotic weapon too but comparing it to martial weapon is going to give you the wrong idea too.
sorry if this is off topic, actually discussing the feat, it is op simply because this feat exists. It's essentially mythic weapon finesse. So it's a normal feat that is equivalent to a mythic feat. How is that not op?
Ya know having the title of mythic does not really mean much. While mythic has some potentially OP things, some of them could have been regular feats. You need more than "some dev called it mythic" to say it is OP. Now if you can say how it can break games at MOST tables then you have a start. All I am seeing is a feat that does not deserve to be mythic.
Add in the fact that Power Attack is better (and a more common prerequisite) than its Dex equivalent and you start to see why Dex to dmg is not all that good.Am I missing something that explains why Dex-to-damage and Power Attack have anything to do with one another?
Wearing armor alone means you're not really going to want to dump Strength below the PA minimum. Unless the conversation is about nothing but kensai magi, Power Attack's not especially relevant here.
If that's the case, then not only the Dex user spent 2 feats, he also spent 3 points in a Str he wouldn't otherwise need...
So... What exactly makes Dex to damage OP, again? He's two feats behind and wasted at least 1 attribute point for Power Attack... And he still doesn't deal as much damage as the Str user.
Less efficiency in feats, more efficiency elsewhere. I.e., as already stated, attack bonus, armor class bonus, initiative modifier, reflex save bonus, AND damage bonus all coming from a single stat.
Overall Dex to damage is fine (simply because Str and 1/2 + power attack is still BETTER damage), but I certainly understand the reluctance against just giving Dex to damage unconditionally.
(Hell, I'm honestly surprised slashing grace and fencing grace exist at all. That DOES represent a softening of a long-time stance.)
Less efficiency in feats, more efficiency elsewhere.
Yes. That's what feats are supposed to do. Make you more efficient.
I.e., as already stated, attack bonus, armor class bonus, initiative modifier, reflex save bonus, AND damage bonus all coming from a single stat.
So what? What's the problem of sacrificing feats and damage to be a more well-rounded character? Even the AC difference isn't all that much before you can afford Celestial Plate.
(Hell, I'm honestly surprised slashing grace and fencing grace exist at all. That DOES represent a softening of a long-time stance.)
Slashing Grace is pretty poorly designed, though. There is literally no reason for it to be weapon-specific and require 3 f#~@ing feats. And Fencing Grace is a big middle finger to player who want a Dex-based character ("This feat is horrible and we know it. But instead of errata'ing it into something well done, we'll release a completely separate feat on a completely separate book! Because screw you, players!").
"We will give a giant middle finger to the player base by giving them new options!"
Um, okay. *shrugs*
Heh. I suspect the entire point of slashing grace is to enable someone to use weapon finesse with a katana. Everything else was secondary.
Suddenly curious - has anyone fiddled around with a tengu swashbuckler that fights with a falcata?
You know slashing grace doesn't actually let you use weapon finesse with a Katana right?
As it is now Slashing Grace will let you use str to attack and dex to damage with said Katana, Longsword, Scimitar, ect. Slashing Grace also dones't give dex to damage on light weapons.
"We will give a giant middle finger to the player base by giving them new options!"
Um, okay. *shrugs*
More like "By giving an overly restrictive option that doesn't even work as intended in the first place... Then refusing to patch it and selling (separately) a different, even more restrictive option."
"Hey, want a character that fights with iconic weapon styles such as rapier and dagger? All you need is 6~10 feats! Awesome! And they say TWF is underpowered... Pfff..."
You know slashing grace doesn't actually let you use weapon finesse with a Katana right?
As it is now Slashing Grace will let you use str to attack and dex to damage with said Katana, Longsword, Scimitar, ect. Slashing Grace also dones't give dex to damage on light weapons.
Yeah, I'd just been looking at swashbuckler, and got swashbuckler's finesse and the much more restrictive weapon finesse mixed up.
Yeah, I'd just been looking at swashbuckler, and got swashbuckler's finesse and the much more restrictive weapon finesse mixed up.You know slashing grace doesn't actually let you use weapon finesse with a Katana right?
As it is now Slashing Grace will let you use str to attack and dex to damage with said Katana, Longsword, Scimitar, ect. Slashing Grace also dones't give dex to damage on light weapons.
It's debatable if weapon Finesse is more restrictive than SWashbuckler's Finesse... There are many light weapons that don't deal piercing damage. Some quite iconic to agile fighters too, like chakrams.
Why? It's fine as it is.
All you're doing is hamstringing the characters who need it most by pushing their access to it back to level 5.
So I belive I have decided to allow deadly agility with some adjustments.
Prequites will be weapon finesse, weapon focus, bab+3.As deadly agility but only gives half dex to off hand, full dex another feat.
Sound good?
I strongly suggest you drop the BAB and Weapon Focus prerequisites (specially the latter). But I think reducing the off-hand damage is ok. They can take Double Slice if they want more damage.
So too strict of prequistes?
Yup. And really... Don't limit it to a single weapon. That limitation is completely pointless! It doesn't make the feat less powerful, just more annoying to use. That's a horrible way to balance things out.
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It is ALREADY BALANCED. Trying to balance it further just UNBALANCES it.
That is what happens when you try to fix what isn't broken.
I'd say drop weapon focus if anything. It's an annoying feat to take.
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It is ALREADY BALANCED. Trying to balance it further just UNBALANCES it.
That is what happens when you try to fix what isn't broken.
Like I stated before I'm trying to allow acceses to it to my players as it is something they want, but I personally have decided that I dont feel it is completly balanced.
So if my new prerequites are to stiff by all means help me tweak them, but dont tell me to leave it as is because as is I'll just have to tell them no. Thats not the direction I wanna go.
Just remove the free Double Slice clause. There is really no need to demand more prerequisites (specially weapon-specific ones, for the reason stated by BWO. All you do is effectivelly force your players to sell Excalibur ao that they can upgrade their generic +1 rapier).
I honestly don't see the point in forcing character to slug through 4 levela just sp that they can finally be effective combatanta at 5th level.
I can't stress thia enough: You cannot and should not balance anything by making it more annoying to use.
So if my new prerequites are to stiff by all means help me tweak them, but dont tell me to leave it as is because as is I'll just have to tell them no. Thats not the direction I wanna go.
Well, if your direction is to tell us you are better at game balance than DSP, I'm afraid we can't help you.
So too strict of prequistes?
Honestly? it's seemed about right with the old ones. A two handed fighter can hulk smash from the start. Why make a dex player have to suck longer?
Second, Blackwaltzomega makes a great point. Weapon Focus makes it so the character is locked into a single weapon. Want to play a rapier and shortsword? Sorry, you're either playing wrong or need to throw away feats.
Myself, I think this is about as far as you should go: "As deadly agility but only gives half dex to off hand, full dex another feat."
EDIT: to compare, lets look at fencing grace:
FENCING GRACE (COMBAT)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (rapier).
When wielding a rapier one-handed, you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage.
So DMJB83, you want to require a BAB of +3 because they can pick a weapon instead of being force to use one of the best finessable weapons... Yeah...
Ok so lets tweak that closer to what yall are say.
Bab+2 and weapon finesse.
Max dex main hand other hand.
You can do that, but who is the BAB+2 stopping? Humans and fighter from gaining it at first? *shrug*
Myself, I don't see the BAB+2 need but it's MUCH improved over the "Prequites will be weapon finesse, weapon focus, bab+3." If I was playing, I prefer a way to start the combo from 1st (as you can do with FENCING GRACE).
Of course, I'm a BAD person to ask. Your players may be cool with waiting longer to have dex a viable option than myself.
With slashing grace the balance is built in by restricting you to one weapon and one fighting style.Ok so lets tweak that closer to what yall are say.
Bab+2 and weapon finesse.
Max dex main hand other hand.You can do that, but who is the BAB+2 stopping? Humans and fighter from gaining it at first? *shrug*
Myself, I don't see the BAB+2 need but it's MUCH improved over the "Prequites will be weapon finesse, weapon focus, bab+3." If I was playing, I prefer a way to start the combo from 1st (as you can do with FENCING GRACE).
Of course, I'm a BAD person to ask. Your players may be cool with waiting longer to have dex a viable option than myself.
Oh, I totally understand that. What I'm saying is that I LIKE the fact that it's possible to start off with a dex based character using slashing/fencing grace and that I would dislike having to instead play a dex character several levels before it really kicks in. Your players may not mind dealing very little damage until this new feat can be takes, then it can work. It's like making a gunslinger and not getting a gun until 3rd level.
With slashing grace the balance is built in by restricting you to one weapon and one fighting style.
Ignore that restriction. It doesn't affect balance, it simply makes the feat less fun. An optimized character will use the same weapon type of weapon whenever possible anyway... It's only the guys willing to switch weapons for style and role play that will suffer.
If you really want to tax it for some reason... Here is my suggestion:
Deadly Agility:
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse; BAB +1 (or Sneak Attack)
Benefit: You can add your Dex bonus to melee damage rolls instead of you Str bonus. This bonus is not increased by conditions that allow you to add 1.5 times your Str bonus (such as wielding your weapon two-handed), but it's still reduced for off-hand attacks.
Keep in mind that TWF is quite underpowered and very feat-intensive (and the Dex character just added 2 more feata to the pile) specially if done with two different weapons (in which case it's probably thr least powerful melee combat style in the game). And most players who go for Weapon Finesse are not interested in 2-handed weapons anyway (nor would they gain any damage benefit from them).
If you really, really, really, REALLY want to add another feat tax, add Combat Reflexes... It's a pointless tax, but it's at least a thematic and useful one... And it doesn't have the awful "one-weapon-only" restriction.
That would basicly make it the same feat as it started as. Which was to easy to enter into in my opinion. I'm trying to find balance for it so my players will still have access for the builds they want to.Weapon focus prereqs and only getting the feat for your focus weapon tends to be more of an annoyance than a balancing factor, in my experience. It inevitably leads to stuff like this:
"You have found a legendary keen +5 adamantine sword with a variety of extremely cool superpowers as a reward for completing this difficult dungeon!"
"Is it a rapier/scimitar/weapon I focused in?"
"...No..."
"Well, I guess we're selling it, then."
I feel like getting dexterity to damage with one AND PRECISELY ONE weapon is part of what leads to cookie-cutter builds, since you are punished for trying to diversify into someone that uses Deadly Agility as it is now to do things like TWF with a rapier and dagger, which doesn't work nearly as well with the established first-party rules.
or you could do no tax period, make dex to attack and damage part of the finesse property...but make it precision damage. Add in a feat that allows you to multiply half your precision from finesse on a crit. If you hate strength dumping, then simply treat all strength scores as 2 lowerfor the purposes of encumberance. This is just spitballing ideas of course.
balance
You keep using that word... Do you have each and every spellcasting class banned so Deadly Agility (which I personally give for free with bunch of other things like Weapon Finesse and Point Blank Shot because f@!& feat taxes) is your only concern?
The second major problem with Weapon Focus remains, though... It's a really freaking boring feat. And it only affects 5% of your attack rolls.
Make it even simpler.
If a character has Weapon Finesse and Expertise, let him add his Expertise bonus to all his light or one-handed finessable weapons for damage when fighting with Finesse, and ignore the Dex to damage thing.
It will scale with level, give him a good reason to still raise strength, and is more thematic. And it stops the silliness that his damage goes UP as his size goes DOWN.
Alternately, if you MUST use Dex to damage, let him have it if he takes Expertise...as a side benefit of being an Expert Fighter. Expertise is VERY thematic for any fencer, and the two would dovetail nicely.
==Aelryinth
The second major problem with Weapon Focus remains, though... It's a really freaking boring feat. And it only affects 5% of your attack rolls.
IT actually affects 100% of your attack rolls.
That's like saying an 18 Str only affects 20% of your attack rolls. +1 if you would otherwise hit on a 12 is +10%. If you wouldhit on a 17, it's +20%. If you would hit on an 18, it's +25%.
The only time it's +5% is if you would otherwise hit on a 3.
All the little numbers add up, and you want them to add up. that way you can turn them into damage or AC, or hit with iteratives.
+1 TH across 4 iteratives is +20% damage. If you're TWF, it's potentially +35% or higher.
==Aelryinth
IT actually affects 100% of your attack rolls.
You know what I meant. Don't be purposefully dense. A 5% bonus in accuracy is a really poor benefit for a feat.
That's like saying an 18 Str only affects 20% of your attack rolls. +1 if you would otherwise hit on a 12 is +10%. If you wouldhit on a 17, it's +20%. If you would hit on an 18, it's +25%.
Except Str has other benefits and doesn't costs a feat slot. It
All the little numbers add up, and you want them to add up. that way you can turn them into damage or AC, or hit with iteratives.
Yes.. .Advance inch by inch... Spend all your resources on that... Not a very good cost/benefit ratio...
+1 TH across 4 iteratives is +20% damage. If you're TWF, it's potentially +35% or higher.
More like 18.5% bonus damage, actually... 30.1% for TWF...
...At 20th level. With full BAB. Not a particularly common or long-lasting game situation.