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Darn, thanks for your help.

The second major problem with Weapon Focus remains, though... It's a really freaking boring feat. And it only affects 5% of your attack rolls.

Im sorry but its à borring feat argument does nothing for me. Machnical advantages and diadvantages are what make a diffrence in m'y opinion.

Sounds like it'd be better to make Weapon Focus work by granting a bonus to a weapon group, kinda like how Spell Focus improves an entire school of spells.

I like that, it actually solves two problème weapon fo us being to limited, and balnacing deadly agility.

So I think i have it now.

Preequites dex of 15, weapon finnesse, weapon focus ( finnessables ), and Bab+. Also only half damage to off hand full with second feat.

Thank you everyone for your help. I feel this is a comparise me and my players can live with.

DMJB83 wrote:

Ok so lets tweak that closer to what yall are say.

Bab+2 and weapon finesse.
Max dex main hand other hand.

You can do that, but who is the BAB+2 stopping? Humans and fighter from gaining it at first? *shrug*

Myself, I don't see the BAB+2 need but it's MUCH improved over the "Prequites will be weapon finesse, weapon focus, bab+3." If I was playing, I prefer a way to start the combo from 1st (as you can do with FENCING GRACE).

Of course, I'm a BAD person to ask. Your players may be cool with waiting longer to have dex a viable option than myself.

With slashing grace the balance is built in by restricting you to one weapon and one fighting style.

Ok so lets tweak that closer to what yall are say.

Bab+2 and weapon finesse.
Max dex main hand other hand.

It is ALREADY BALANCED. Trying to balance it further just UNBALANCES it.

That is what happens when you try to fix what isn't broken.

Like I stated before I'm trying to allow acceses to it to my players as it is something they want, but I personally have decided that I dont feel it is completly balanced.

So if my new prerequites are to stiff by all means help me tweak them, but dont tell me to leave it as is because as is I'll just have to tell them no. Thats not the direction I wanna go.

That would basicly make it the same feat as it started as. Which was to easy to enter into in my opinion. I'm trying to find balance for it so my players will still have access for the builds they want to.

So too strict of prequistes?

So I belive I have decided to allow deadly agility with some adjustments.
Prequites will be weapon finesse, weapon focus, bab+3.

As deadly agility but only gives half dex to off hand, full dex another feat.

Sound good?

Everyone seems hung up on the comparison of a feat that offers str to ac. Lets try a diffrent comparison. Say a single feat allows a caster to change their prime casting stat ie: a sorcer now uses wisdom instead of chrisma. Would that be a fair swap for just one feat. Thats a bonus to will saves and prception prehaps the best skill in the game?

Wow just signed back in to read any updates, and there seems to be really mixed opinions on this. I was never agruing whether the damage was op. It is obvious that this wont let dex fighters reach the damage of two handers. My big consider was how much is already dependent on dex, that this just seemed like overkill to make it the damage stat as well. Also the full damage auto to off hand seemed slightly unbalanced.

Wow there are some good points brought up. Let me clearify the question.
Is it bad yo have so many things basés off a single stat instead of letting each stat do there own job. Not trying to question martial classes vs casters. Or justseems to me this would be like a fear that gives str to reflex Daves, ac bonus, and inti.

I game in a group of seven guys two of us rotate as GM, and as the primeary GMs we usually confer on any house rules and third party material as to keep the group flow from adventure to adventure.

Recently started a new ap and the othe GM and I are both players because someone else decided to try thier hand at running the show. A lot of guys showed up with dex builds and as you would suspect our damage output at low levels was pretty bad, but they kept saying wait til lvl 3. When level 3 hit they all took deadly agility and current GM allowed it. That got me reserching the feat.

Deadly Agility (Combat)

You have learned how to use your agility to greater purpose in battle.

Prerequisite(s): Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit(s): You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when wielding a light weapon or a weapon that gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat (such as the rapier) when determining additional damage inflicted upon a successful attack.

This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is not reduced for off-hand weapons.

I was curious how other feel about it. I am currently in the boat that having so many skils and abilites based off one stat is slightly over power.One of them is a twf and this one feat not only changes his prime damage stat but applys it to his off hand as well? Please send me some advice as I will be running things agian one day should I allow this feat.

I too am curious, for fairness' sake, if the OP is tracking the chance the PALADIN ends up the one "corrupting" the antipaladin and causing her to fall from "grace."

Yes I have considered the possibilty of him turning her, but feel if that happens it has to be in a dramtic way ie: not just show up and have turned a leaf and is now a good guy. Considered her turning against her master in a hope of saving the paladin( if iI can arrange such confrontation)only to have her killed and maybe redemded and resureacted by his goddess. Thats why I started this post so many ways to take this story that I cant decide.

Any updates on this?

To buy sometime to sort out the next move of BBEG and the Anti-pally pally sitiution, I had the anventure lead the team to a diffrent pocket reality. Plan is kinda while they are secure an artifact BBEG is also after in that reality 5 years or so will pass in theirs. Therefore BBEG has a stronger foothold on the world and antipally has the whole women scorn and left behind thing going. At least thats where I'm leaning.

Here's the question: Does she love him? If it's genuine love, both eros and agape, then it's far stronger than her allegiance to any evil (which is an inferior force), ultimately.

Perhaps she might sacrifice herself at the last minute, a la Darth Vader for Luke, knowing that she'll likely go to eternal punishment anyway—which would constitute a real sacrifice. Might redeem her, might not, depending on how you want to go with it.

Alternately (if you're feeling particularly insidious), she might do so, knowing she'll be resurrected ... and then she'll have him completely hooked, because he then might well be inclined to do evil for her even as she did good for him—only to find she's been playing him all along. Mua ha ha.

Frankly, though, while you're free to run your game however you like, carrying on a romantic/sexual relationship with an anti-paladin is self-evidently beyond ridiculous for a paladin. It de facto condones what she is. He should have gotten warning twinges when growing to like her ... warning bells when he first kissed her ... and his powers should have drained away with the essence he left inside her that first time.

"Women ... weaken ... legs!"

[Edit: "The beat part is there hasnt been à physical side to their little love story ... "

Didn't see this before. Very good, then. Carry on. :) ]

My group encountered something similar years ago: Merelyth was an occasional foe of my paladin Rashid; she debuted, I believe, as a 5th level anti-paladin when he was still at 1st level, which allowed her to be his superior for quite some time. (I believe he caught up at ... hmm ... 8th level, if I'm not mistaken, and was 10th when she was 9th.) Their flirtation became fascination ... but, ultimately, other parts of the campaign drew us away from that storyline.

She is very stricken by him as well, so yes it is being played as an affection that is both ways. It was werid what started as her show up to mock him after a minor scuffle with some of her lords underlings, and to kinda give the careful whom you mess with speech. Then their back and forth banter kinda took a flirty turn, and has got to the point where they and a Hush Hush date to a play in town.

Have her tell him she's pregnant. He'll want to protect her no matter what whether it's true or not.

Wow I have inttenionally left the phsyical side to a min, but that makes me reconsider.

DMJB83 wrote:

She has played thé part of major source of info. As thé bbeg just looks at thé party as a minor annonce right more them thé real threat to his power they will one day become. She is lawful evil to à tee so she shouldbt be hacking innocent people, but an disagreement on what to do with à child pickpocket could be fun. The beat part is there hasnt been à physical side to their little love story, à couple (dates or interactions) but she always leaves him hanging. She does understand hé is à paladin of Srenea, and like to point out that their vids have even worked together before.Thanks for thé opinions and advice keep them coming .

You can hand-wave it if you like, but Antipaladins are chaotic evil.

Yeah sorry at our table a long time back we house ruled all antipaladins le instead of ce evil, too us seem to fit the class better. Ce is for psycho murderers not a dark knight with codes and ethics.

Do I smell auto-correct?

Anyway, lawful evil will still happily torture the hell out of a peasant who isn't forthcoming enough with information or kill someone after they answered questions to "maintain operational security" and prevent them from squealing.

Also, why would you tell me that? NOW I can't keep repeatedly thrusting my terrible innuendo into such a warm, inviting thread.

Other fun:

-The characters debate ethics.

Plague-zombies are headed for a village to kill and convert the peasants. Antipaladin suggests the party simply forcibly evacuate all but the local criminals and send them (now homeless refugees who will likely be enslaved) away. Then she intends to use the local criminals as bait for firetraps which will kill the mindless creatures. The criminals will have to be cut-up a lot so the zombies can smell the blood and will undoubtedly die in the fire, agonizingly.

Illegal slave-takers are raiding the area. She intends to kill the slavers (yay!), free the citizens who have been illegally taken (yay!), and enslave any surviving non-citizens herself (boo!).

A rebel force is planning a murder-sacrifice ritual to conjure up a powerful demon. Antipaladin doesn't have any evil plans here, except torturing one of the cultists for information. She uses it as an opportunity to talk about all the good that evil does (wait, wut?) while the paladin has the opportunity to point out the similarity between kidnapping innocents for sacrifice and a system which does the exact same thing for devils, except in a more orderly and regimented fashion.

Kill a village of orc raiders. Lots of orc widows and orphans left over. What do? Antipaladin suggests a simple solution (murder, or "giving them a good ownerhome that would teach them to be productive members of society").

Anyway, all I know for certain is eventually the paladin falls. Divine grace only lets you make so many...

Yeah auto correct hell. I was typing form a cell phone lol. Thats some intresting ideas

She has played thé part of major source of info. As thé bbeg just looks at thé party as a minor annonce right more them thé real threat to his power they will one day become. She is lawful evil to à tee so she shouldbt be hacking innocent people, but an disagreement on what to do with à child pickpocket could be fun. The beat part is there hasnt been à physical side to their little love story, à couple (dates or interactions) but she always leaves him hanging. She does understand hé is à paladin of Srenea, and like to point out that their vids have even worked together before.Thanks for thé opinions and advice keep them coming .

If he knows of her allegiance to an evil enemy and doesn't stop associating with her, then he isn't a paladin anymore. He's willingly associating with evil. Has he bothered to use detect evil on her at all? If he suggest the paladin does because he doesn't want to know it hints at the fact that he realizes that she might be evil. And is further reason to lose his power.

Quote:

Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

However, before proceeding you should discuss out of play with the player about what will happen if he continues to associate with evil.

Lol she is an antipaladin of Asmodeous no detection needed. I'm not looking to make him fall cause that would spoil the fun for both of us.

Hé knows of her allegence to bbeg and that hasnt deter him yet

So in the the current campaign im running( a home brew) one of the paladins has become quite enthralled by a feamle antipaladin npc. I'm looking for clever ways to twist and bend those feelings into something to help drive him crazy. As it bstands right now the kinda have a secert relationship ie: they only meet in private or in guise.

The real kicker is thatshe works for the bbeg in the game. I have consider having the bbeg comand her to kill said paladin leanding to a one on one battle, but I feel there is so much possible with these two. So any ideas would be apprecatied.

so they are level 10?

enemy casters should be taking advantage of miss chance, concealment, cover, without line of effect they can't be hit by most things. Walls of stone or ice will be an effective barrier.

Outsiders like demons and devils have an excellent suite of SLA and sometimes caster levels, and greater teleport at will lets them move around the battlefield without much hassle.

At level 10 they certainly have access to fly but that's nothing a dispel magic can't fix, and they likely don't have a redundant source, plummeting 100+ feet hurts.

Use multiple encounters a day, have the first few not be so much challenging but exhausting, hit them with poisons, diseases, curses, negative levels, ability damage, get them to expend their channels and consumables.

Spells like solid fog, acid fog, darkness, make strategy and teamwork difficult.

Introduce weather effects, range becomes either difficult or nearly impossible, if they can only see 60 feet around them in a blizzard they will have trouble locating the casters(who are flying above) especially as mooks come charging at them.

throw more AoO spells at them, little bits of damage will add up and also spread unevenly as some make more saves then others.

Enemies with a high DR that only some of them can overcome will encourage them to split up, use polymorphs or illusions to bait and switch the enemies they are fighting.

They just hit lvel 8 so acl is 11

DMJB83 wrote:

Golems: the slingers laugh at them as on has scattershot.

I'm not familiar, but just THAT manages to bypass say DR 15/adamantine?

Sorry typing on fly while at work I meant clustered shot. So yeah they get dr but only once off four shots.

Wow, Lots of responses where too start. Yes I have accounted for three extra players when caluating acl but was only adding a +2 for it.

Example fight was a cr 15 that involed a high level cleric plus his two luetiants and assasian with improved feint and a agumented dire ape antipaladin. Readied actions team evil: cleric summons a shadow demon antipaladin smites sword and board pally assasian moves to get in flanking postion with antiplaladin. Then int rolled slingers win and both go off on cleric he dies and demon disappers, palladins double team antipaladin, and ranger pin cushions assasian. so and encounter thats billed as cr them +5 wiped in one round.

Traps they can spot easliy due to high perception score have some trouble disarming and noone to disarm magic traps.

The only mild succes i have seen was the level6 barbarain nilbog I threw their way, but they caught on qucik grappled and soon healed him to death, also swarms have proved a slight incovience

Golems: the slingers laugh at them as on has scattershot.

It seems most people are saying more magic and larger enemy.

Thanks everyone anymore ideas keep them coming.

I have never been the kind of Gm that says we need a balanced party whatever you feel like playing as long as we have the source books to support it is fine. Now that has caused an issue, the latest campagin I began to run I have 7 pcs no biggie adjust encounters with things like max hp for notable npcs and add more mooks and sometimes tougher mooks.

The problem was that after everyone one prepared their characters the shake down ended up as follows.

1 human vanilla paladin twf sword and board
2 human paladin hospitaler
3 monkey person ranger sorry cant recall name of that right now
4 human gunslinger/inquistor
5 human brawler
6 human illuluiosnist
7 teifling gunslinger

The problem is the about of damage they throw down is just crazy.
they quickly wipe crs of them +6-8 with little problem. Any suggestions on how to keep things chalenging for them? I'm not try to utterly destory them as they are level 8 I dont plan to throw a cr20 their way, but In dont want them to be bored with such easy combat.

Thanks Stuart, I'll have to rebuild anyway because in the module she is a eldritch knight prestige class which I have always felt was unpowered anyway. I was just trying to pinpoint the right level to build at I was leaning to 12-13.

Thanks true> That's kinda were I was leaning just didn't want to turn things into a kill box. Sometimes a little reassuring is all you need lol.

Anyone?

I'm running my group which consists of 6 players: 2 paladins( one healing focused the other sword and board), a gunslinger, a ranged ranger, and two casters all lvl7 thru this module. We are closing in on the final session and two of the up coming fights seem like the will be such a cake walk that I'm not sure what to do with them. First the dark Naga, would 2 dark nagas be too hard? second the final encounter I have decided to change her form eldritch knight to either straight magus or caster but what lvl would prove to be a challenge with out being a one sided murder?

?

I just received my copy of RPT, and browsing through it the tournament battles don't seem like they would be difficult at all for a party of 4-5 level 10-11 guys. Haas anyone that has run this seen that problem?

We typically do 7 rolls of 3d6 drop the lowest roll.

Wow, I was hoping there was something to increase your turn level kinda like caster level increase for arcane dudes. Thanks anyway.

I would like to build a cleric that is really good at turning undead, but I was wondering if there is any way to make it useful at higher levels as the bbeg will always have more hd then you so you cant destroy him.

Steel soul thats it! whats that in?

I recall reading somewhere about a racial trit or acrhtype thats gives a huge boost to saves for a dwarf does any one recall what it is?

The campaign is rotrl, so it's not really hell knight based.

We do two triats plus I allowed to pick one off the replace spell like ability charts. I' m afraid paladin hell knights would run into some big time rp pits and possible fall situations. For the replacement of spell like abilities I was thinking the one that let's you be raised by animate dead 1d4 times.

That some good ideas had a friend suggest armour master fight then Adamanite hk plate for like dr 6- and vicious melee weapon since I would take any damage? Thoughts?

I have premission from my dm to run a hell knight as a replacement char. I want a theifling no ideas on where to go from there any suggestions. Lvl 12 all paizo books are acceptable. We roll stats so 18,16,16,15,16,13 was rolled.

I'd said Zog your amazing great combo. Thank you!

Thanks for the info. I know my players wont pass up a treasure hoard lol, so the fight is bound to happen. This should be a good strat point.
if i add two levels of wizard he should have 7th level access any suggestions on what to take.

Ok heres the deal I am goimg to run a home brew where my players come up against a awakened demi lich. I have most of the andventure mapped out, but I'm runnimg low on time. I was hoping some people here would help me build the bbg. Iwant him to be a necro spec wizard gone lich and finally awakened demilich. Basicly all i have at this point is a cr cap at 17-18 and specializing in death magic. So just throw some ideas or mock builds my way please. If you decided to help thanks a bunch.

Im liking the fact he's not dead. That opens a whole new world of possibilies, not sure how you could do it but how about have him appear on the Man's Promise when the players are on the isle of Bones, there are a couple of days where the PC's are off the ship. He could come on board and hijack the ship and plan the ambush as written.

Regardless problem solved, Plugg not dead, he comes back for revenge in some way that you see fit. PC's still punished as no-one is aware he's alive.

Win, win.

The island for my sidequest wouldnt be the isle of bones it would be a small home cooked isle. I have six players so an island with a few encounters to level out their exp to where its suggested they be. Either way i think this has helped to guide me as when it happen I was glad it was time to call it for the night as they floored when it worked.

Ok that would work. My second thought was since they didnt loot him swap some of his gear for a ring of water breathing. Then since I have six players I can afford a little extra exp have a small side quest on an island. I'm thinking the captin has a map that suppose to led to tresure so he sends a camp out on the island, and while they are on siad island the mans promise sails by. They have to let it go since a good chunk of the crew is on the island. Then we that get back give chase for a few days and run the mans pormise as normal but plugg is being held to be turn over to athorities at the docks? Do you think that would work?

All npcs minus plugg are around.

The pc is a fecthling ninja that took a trait i cant rember which on that allowed him to start with I think it was 350gp in posion, and he had alrady managed to get his equipment back form grok. As far as the sitiuation i could tell tempers were brewing everytime he called them down or whipped them so i gave them a chance during the storm to get thaught a lesson, and at first it was going great he was going to drop them to negs then heal them up to be punished( keelhauling for the ring leader and sweat box the rest)he dropped two no problems, but with a chackling witch and a ninja throw posion shurks, he got put to sleep for 3 hours via the posion. Then they through him over I informed that that some of the npcs had seen them they didnt seem to care. thats where we ended our session.

Through some clever role playing and a lucky fort save vs posion my pcs managed to elminate plugg undetected. This happen in the timeline before the the event with the reef claws. Any thoughts on who would step up into his role, or since i have left some of the npcs on the boat vauge most in case we need a replacment char should I convert one those to the new first mate? Any ideas?