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So you guys responded well to my dervish dance question earlier. Now I'm ready to get into the meat of things.
First off I'm a nub to Pathfinder and my group is doing its first campaign. I've played a lot of video rpgs and stuff just not the board game. I find the board game to be much richer as far as the imagination and the real fun you can have with a group.
The main reason I'm asking these questions is so I can minimize the amount of newbie regret when I choose feats and so on.
That being said, I'm looking into an assassin/nightcrawler style of magus play that involves stealth and high dmg, using my stealth and dex to avoid taking dmg(hopefully). I like dervish dance/scimitar for the crit ranges on the spellstrike and high dex AC bonus. I've also seen a line of feats called dimensional dervish where u can basically teleport around the battle and flank with yourself and attack without provoking opportunity. However it seems like I need to use a spell slot every time I do this?
At low levels I've got my eye on vanish for some stealth play.
So basically, what are some of the best routes to go for a playstyle like this? Are there some ninja feats that are worth taking a couple levels in ninja to pick up? What kind of progression would you follow?
The key is maneuverability through cloaking and teleporting, with high damage to strong single targets, and the ability to flash around and execute a few kobolds in one turn(as the dice permit hehe)
I'm open to suggestions but I'm interested in mainly magus as the main class to level here, if any multiclassing is suggested.
Thanks in advance!
A Spell Dancer magus can get Dimensional Agility at 9th level.
Dot
Depending on how deep into the "assassin" vibe you're wanting to go, you could spend the three feats and the skill points needed to enter into the Shadowdancer prestige class. That is currently what I'm building towards with my Magus myself, and I'm loving him.
If your DM is nice, he'll even let you use the Dimensional feats with the Shadowdancer's shadow stepping ability. Mine is allowing it.
I could use spell dancer, AND shadow dancer right? These both look good lol
Spell Dancer is just an archetype, while Shadowdancer is a prestige class, you could easily use both.
DUDE, spell dancer into shadow dancer, I'll have spell combat and spell strike by then so my dmg will be great, I can teleport around as a swift with dimension door, then attack with my weapon, then spellstrike with a touch spell, then take a 5 foot step back? This is sounding real good lol.
I could attack with with spell combat, and then teleport away right?
Could I charge in, use a spell strike, then dimension door away?
I wonder if theres room for enough feats to squeeze in dimensional dervish feats as well....How many feats does a lvl 20 character usually get anyway?
Also, is there any kind of ability that would allow me to leave behind clouds of smoke everytime I teleport? Or is this a kind of thing Id have to work out with the DM? I see the implications of shadowdancer and a smoke screen ninja vanish to be quite cool. Then I could jump between my smoke clouds and get bonus to hit on stealth attacks.
I personally start most fights tossing a smoke stick or three around the battlefield and my allies all carry them as well, if they notice we need a gap filled, they toss a stick nearby and I'll port through the shadows it creates. I use a whip/scorpion whip, so my range is 15-20 feet depending on if I am using Lunge or not, but even so, I threaten a large area that the DM has to be prepared to either avoid, or see enemies attacked viciously. My plan next is to start working in two weapon fighting with spell strike and a empowered multi-touch spell like Chill Touch, meaning basically I can channel it through each attack of my whip(s).
You can get Dimensional Dervish at 15th level. (Assuming you take Spell Dancer to 9th and start the feat chain. You can multiclass after that and still get the rest of the feats.)
I personally start most fights tossing a smoke stick or three around the battlefield and my allies all carry them as well, if they notice we need a gap filled, they toss a stick nearby and I'll port through the shadows it creates. I use a whip/scorpion whip, so my range is 15-20 feet depending on if I am using Lunge or not, but even so, I threaten a large area that the DM has to be prepared to either avoid, or see enemies attacked viciously. My plan next is to start working in two weapon fighting with spell strike and a empowered multi-touch spell like Chill Touch, meaning basically I can channel it through each attack of my whip(s).
Damn now you got me thinking about whip swords, and chain swords. You know much about any of these? Only ones I can find are scorpion whip, nine section whip, and an urumi.
What kind of whips do you use?
Ideally I'm looking for a sword kind of like the one Ivy uses in Soul Calibur. A whip sword with a long range, maybe 10-15 feet and I'd be set.
You can get Dimensional Dervish at 15th level. (Assuming you take Spell Dancer to 9th and start the feat chain. You can multiclass after that and still get the rest of the feats.)
Dude this sounds like a powerful end game character. Like op statusssssssss
I use just a plain Scorpion Whip, though it is "fluffed" as being a whip made of spiky chain with a blade at it's tip. Using it with the Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery isn't half bad of an option, as well as grabbing Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and then getting Slashing Grace for Dex to Damage. Definitely is feat-intensive to be able to use it well, but you make up for the use of feats by getting to imbue your weapon and enhance your weapon as a Magus, as well as compensating for the "lesser" damage of the whip by Spell Striking with it at a longer range.
Essentially I play the character as a "ranged" assassin type of role, flitting around the battlefield, being a ninja and sticking to the shadows and then popping out to slash a throat with a crack of his whip, adding a massive burst of electricity or negative energy, or any other touch-spell I decide is needed against my target.
You can get Dimensional Dervish at 15th level. (Assuming you take Spell Dancer to 9th and start the feat chain. You can multiclass after that and still get the rest of the feats.)Dude this sounds like a powerful end game character. Like op statusssssssss
Actually I was thinking of Dimensional Savant. You can get Dervish by 13th level.
I think I'm going to create a weapon. I'm thinking something along the lines of an elven chain whip sword that can be held as a two handed weapon, one handed, or relaxed one handed into a 10 ft whip. 1d6 dmg for one handed attacks and 1d10 for two handed attacks. The main reason behind the two handed dmg is for when I'm charging and cant use spell combat, so Ill just use a two handed spellstrike. Does this seem imbalanced or reasonable?
I see a lot of damage potential with arcane accuracy and power attack with a two handed spell strike. Also, does power attack bonus damage get doubled on a crit?
Aracanist with dimensional slide would be what I would start with.
TheOddGoblin: Your build sounds interesting to me. Could you post it?
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Samsaran Swashbuckler 1 (inspired blade)/ Sorcerer (Shadow or Umbral Bloodline) 6/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Sorcerer 3
Use Samsaran for Mystic Past Life to get Dimension Door off of the Summoner list as a 3rd level spell (also, blue skin). Start Dimensional feats at level 7, finish at 13. Pick up robe of Arcane Heritage to gain Hide in Plain Sight (pretty much) at level 6, or whenever you get the money. Get a mithral buckler and Greater Shadow Haramaki for the win.
20 point buy, 8, 19, 12, 13, 9, 14
1. Swashbuckler's finesse, Weapon Focus: Rapier, Fencing Grace
3. Skill Focus: Stealth
5. Improved Initiative
7. Dimensional Agility
8. Combat Expertise
9. Dimensional Assault
11. Dimensional Dervish
13. Dimensional Savant, Outflank
By the time you get to level 13, you'll be a 11th level caster. If you get a +6 Cha HB, you'll be able to dervish 20 times a day if you dump higher level slots into it. It's also conceiveable to have a +9 to Dex and have a stealth check around +42 or so. You also have the added benefit of getting 9th level spells at level 20 if you get that far.
Oterisk, I haven't seen you around in a long time. If I have just missed your posts then ignore this. Otherwise, welcome back!
I remember you posting a build similar to that way back in one of my very first posts on these boards years ago. It looks like you have developed it pretty far.
Questions: If you are getting Dim Door as a 3rd level spell you qualify for Dimensional Agility by 7th and Dimensional Assault at the same level. You can have Dimensional Dervish at 9th level. Is there some reason to have Combat Expertise where it is?
Also, once you hit either 7th or 9th level would you recommend using the retraining rules from Complete Campaign?
Since Whip and Scorpion Whip were brought up multiple times in this thread I felt it applicable to post here that I resurrected the latest thread on that topic that I could find.
TheOddGoblin: Your build sounds interesting to me. Could you post it?
I don't have my sheet on me right now since my DM has it, but the feat spread was as follows.
1: Weapon Finesse (Human), Weapon Focus (Kensai), Whip Mastery
3: Slashing Grace (Whip), Flamboyant Arcana
5: Dodge, Combat Reflexes (Kensai)
6: Arcane Deed: Precise Strike
7: Mobility
Just to list a couple of divine alternatives:
Dimension Door can be picked up at level 7 with the Travel Domain, so that a Theologian Cleric would pick it up on their normal spell list at that point.
A Spirit Guide Oracle with a lore spirit (and maybe using the Lore Mystery for the bonus intelligence and/or sweet, sweet stat compression) can pick up Dimension Door at level 8 (along with a cherry-picked haul of delicious arcane goodness).
Now that it's in my head anyways...
Dimensional Dervish Oracle
Dual Talent Human or Angel-Kin Aasimar
16/18++, 7, 14, 13, 9, 15/17+
Fate's Favored, Magical Knack
Barbarian 1/ Spirit Guide Oracle 12
Lore Mystery, Lame Curse; Sidestep Secret revelation @1, Mental Acuity revelation @11.
1(Barbarian). Noble Scion of War
3. Extra Rage
5. Divine Protection
7. Power Attack or Extra Rage
9. Dimensional Agility
11. Dimensional Assault
13. Dimensional Dervish
High strength with Furious, Courageous two-hander (for some reason I really wanna say two-handed katana), rage-on-demand, Divine Favor, Heroism, Mirror Image, Vanish, Charisma AC + mithral breastplate.
So with spell dancer and shadow dancer, I would be able to use dimension door as a swift action right? Then I could use vanish in spell combat then attack after? Would using vanish before an attack grant a stealth bonus of any kind?
One thing to talk to your GM about.
Dimension Door specifies that, after casting, one cannot take any other actions on their turn.
However, Spell Combat is a single action to cast and full attack. Thus by RAW, Spell Combat -> Dimension Door -> Full attack is legal. I would strongly advise talking to your GM, but it's very possible that you don't even need Dimensional Agility.
If you do need it, I would advise stopping there instead of picking up the full feat chain. To allow a full attack + teleport, the full chain is nice... except you can already /do/ that with 0-1 feats. The only gain the chain is being able to spread out your attacks, which is less useful than what it might sound. You're not likely to one-shot anything of note.
Invisibility is also going to be key to your strategy, I would think, so you're going to want Vanish and Greater Invisibility on your spell list and prepared often. Invisibility itself is also very useful but it's not nearly as good of a combat spell; better for scouting and the like.
Damage-wise, the Arcane Deed Magus arcana for Precise Strike is extremely nice, and propels your damage up to where you want it; on par with the full beatsticks. Personally I would avoid a multiclass because that directly costs you damage.
There really isn't much in the way of specialized feats that you need for something like this; it's really all in the spell picks and the like.
Thanks for pointing this out. I figure by the time I'm high enough level to get the other feats, I'll have a much better idea if I would actually use/need them. So I'll look into some other feats that I may go towards instead.
I'd really like some feedback on this Chain whip sword idea. I've reworked it after speaking with a friend to work as a 1d4 in 10ft whip mode, while using the stats of a medium scimitar of 1d6 18-20x2 for the sword mode. Power attack adds 1+1/2 your attack modifier so my single attack spellstrike will still benefit from that. Also the ability to move from sword mode to whip mode seamlessly through some kind of magnetic control(I am a magic user after all). Also I'm thinking of weapon finesse for the whip to add dex mod then later on add dervish dance to use dex mod while in sword mode.
Do you guys think I should require two types of weapon feats, one for whips and one for swords, in order to make it fully balanced? What feats would I use? Any other ideas for a weapon like this?
Or you could quicken a Vanish spell and then Spell Combat with Dervish Dance. Quicken Spell is always a good feat choice.
Magi actually generally lose out from Power Attack. They're among the few classes that do, but barring rounds where you're using Arcane Accuracy/Accurate Strikes, it's a no-go.
You'd need Slashing Grace to use your chain-whip idea with Dex, assuming it's finessable. You may or may not need the whip feats to actually deal damage.
But if we're being honest... it sounds like a little much.
In its default form, it's equivalent to the best non-exotic one-handed weapon in the game.
In its secondary form, it picks up one of the most coveted weapon properties in the game (reach) without the usual drawback therein. You could honestly break that sort of weapon very easily with a Magus, if you were so inclined. It's... not something I'd allow as a GM in that state.
Oh my bad on the power attack, what I meant was a regular two handed strike with a one handed weapon. You get a bonus 1.5 damage mod on your attack. I only brought this up in the cases where say I charge and dont have time for a full round action spell combat, and just use a two handed spell strike attack.<-----legal right?
ALSO, slashing grace lmao. I spent like 6 hours trying to find out where dervish dance was, when slashing grace is basically the same thing lol. Without the perform dance requirements. Thank you for pointing that out hahaha.
So Weapon Proficiency(whip)+Weapon Finesse(for dex on whip mode),and Weapon Focus(sword)+Slashing Grace(for dex on sword mode), thats four feats for one weapon, I think thats has some balance to it. Right? I dont think whip feats are a requirement to deal damage since it functions like a scorpion whip. I can see how the sword mode would remove the opportunity attack from using a whip, while still being able to use a whip when needed can be a bit imbalanced, however I think I could overcome this by using a cestus or other wrist mounted weapon while holding a regular whip in the same hand anyway.
Also, now I'm looking into other options than a sword for the blade, maybe a scizor or a katar with a chain wrapped around my arm. Any ideas for an assassin type fist weapon like this?
Last but not least, I'm looking into using spellstrike in conjuction with Whirlwind attack. Is this a legal move? Im talking about granting a spelltstrike attack on all targets hit effectively making any touch spell have AOE capability. This combined with the dimensional feats could even allow for teleporting between attacks?
Ye we're all noobs and I'm sure the DM will agree, perhaps a little reworking of the stats, I'd really like to have the crit range though, cuz that gives me the 18-20 on spells as well, for huge damage!(maybe thats why this is op)
Two-handing is legal with Spellstrike, yes. That said, past level four you should be going Spell Combat -> Bladed Dash, move 30' and attack, full attack.
Dude bladed dash, and the greater version look so badass! Thanks for pointing that out, what a cool feat! I was just wondering about using whirlwind attack with spellstrike and dimensional dervish to blow up multiple targets, perhaps bladed dash is better for this? Could I spellstrike every single target with greater bladed dash? How about dimensional dervish teleporting during or after the dash or whirlwind attack? What kind of legal options are there for max damage and swag? lol.
One option to consider, though it does definitely come in at a hefty price of +10,000 gold, is the Transformative property. You could then take the regular whip feats, as well as feats like Dervish Dance, or any other weapon-specific for a weapon of the same handedness(One Handed Weapon) and be able to apply them as you see fit by having a weapon that transforms on your command.
Then I suppose it's simply a matter of finding what other combat style feats combine nicely together if you're really into that option. It would allow you to take Dervish Dance and switch freely between Whip and Scimitar whenever you feel like it.
Go with the Scorpion Whip, and since it is a Light Melee Weapon, switch between two Scorpion Whips and two Wakizashi or Kukri when dealing with up-close opponents maybe?
Go with the Scorpion Whip, and since it is a Light Melee Weapon, switch between two Scorpion Whips and two Wakizashi or Kukri when dealing with up-close opponents maybe?
How would I effectively use two whips as a magus? Dont I need a free hand?
Whirlwind Attack doesn't work with Dervish (or Spell Combat).
Spellstrike... I think you have a fundamental misconception about how it works.
Spellstrike has nothing to do with casting a spell, it's all in the delivery. Whenever you would get a free attack to deliver a touch spell (after casting said touch spell, in the same turn), you can instead deliver it with your weapon. Further, whenever you have a held charge of a touch spell, if you hit somebody with your weapon you can deliver a touch (keep in mind, here, that casting a new spell causes any held charges of a touch spell to immediately vanish).
So, the normal Magus attack routine is Spell Combat -> cast touch spell -> Spellstrike delivery -> full attack.
Spell Combat -> Bladed Dash -> full attack is legal, but there's no Spellstrike there; Bladed Dash isn't a touch spell. And if you were holding a charge before the round began, it would vanish when Bladed Dash was cast. You can literally never get off a Spellstrike during a Bladed Dash or its Greater variant.
The closest you can come is cast a touch spell as a swift action -> deliver via Spellstrike -> Spell Combat -> Bladed Dash -> full attack. That's an upper-level trick since it depends on Quicken Spell (and, probably, Spell Perfection).
Well bladed dash is still badass, I was just wondering how far I could take it.
As far was whirlwind, exactly why wouldnt I be able to say, apply or deliver my spell effects through a whirlwind attack to all of the targets hit? How about one of the targets?
bladed dash is great for keeping your full attacks strung together when your enemies are spread out, or when you want to start a combat with a move toward the enemy and still keep the full attack (crucial I'd think, if you're trying to take someone out in round one, hitter style)- or, after whacking someone a few times, you can dash away (targeting your victim with the dash attack), preferably somewhere your enemy can't reach. Not sure which meta-magic feat allows it, but you increase the range of your bladed dash x2, and all the target's bodyguards are stuck chasing you down instead of attacking you, at least for one round. With a good stealth skill, you could full attack, blade dash away to a doorway, five foot step around a corner, effectively breaking line of sight. Works really well if you were to say, set up caltrops or use some other spell that creates difficult terrain. By the time they round the corner, you're smoke in the wind.
Hit and run tactics really benefit from anything that will boost your base speed up, so do what you can. 5k or so for some shiny boots of hopping and skipping (lol, can't remember what they're called, im tired, forgive me).
Ray of exhaustion. Ray of enfeeblement. Close range arcana. If you go to take out a boss, sure, shocking grasp spellstrike extravaganza is cool, but if you fail to drop some beefy 20 con level 10 boss in plate (which, hey, you could miss a swing or two, if you did happen to let him put on the armor, rather than say, invis sneaking into his inn room and coup'n him). By the way - anyone know what the official ruling is for ability damage on spellstrike critical hits? Double, or no?
either way, Soften him up with some kind of single spellstrike to cause fatgiue/exhaustion (or touch of fatigue, frigid touch, elemental touch(cold), whatever), then follow up asap with the big guns
Ray of Exhaustion is brutal for any target (-6dex, -6str, 1/2 speed, and no running or charging, thus, sitting duck) - even if they do decide to go toe to toe, NOW you can hit em with that shocking grasp. Nothing walks away! There's nowhere to run, mark! Keep in mind that you wanna fatigue him first, if at all possible, and there are plenty of spells to do it with, that way exhaustion is automatic. If you just can't (time constraints) RoE is still a brutal fight opener on many bosses. Don't try this on a cleric (dang restorations).
Anyway, everybody goes for the max damage build and that's fine, but magus has access to some really good debuffs too - especially if you take some wizzy spells with an arcana, and for an assassin type (assuming your DM isn't just going to pit you against level 2 non-combatant noblemen over and over) sometimes you need to make a hard target squishy before closing in for some heavy burst damage.
Personally, I think there are better classes for assassination, but skill+ items are cheap. Buy a stealth booster asap (+5 stealth is only like 2500g, eeeeasy), and take any traits/ racial bonuses you can to aid you, since it ain't a class skill. Halfling sounds nice for the +4, but don't forget to pick up fleet of foot - otherwise they're slooow. You could also go the myrmidarch route, and use some thrown weapons. throwing dart of doom = a +5 throwing weapon, thrown by a halfling, and combined with a frigid touch spellstrike. Target is fatigued; ray of exhaustion. etc. Not as pure deepsy as the melee/grace/precisestrike/whatever builds, but hey, could also be fun.
Alternately, you may find that an investigator makes for a really cool assassin build too. High alchemy/potion based spells (orrr poisons, but only if your dm allows you some kind of "masterwork poison homebrew rules", as the poison DCs suck at higher levels), studied target, studied strike, inspired strike and timed strike. You watch a target, wait, then after x rounds, you jump 'em for a bunch of damage. Take amazing inspiration when possible... Mastermind archetype is a handy pve route; not so much about being a ninja acrobat as being the devil in a nice suit. You come into a town, send your party members out on the prowl, gathering information about your targets... Having contacts and using inspiration to boost the abilities of allies - and really high diplomacy/intimidation skill yourself - can make it easy to find the most vulnerable time to strike a target. Also kind of frustrating to DMs when you just invisibility extract/sneak/coup his boss enemies while they're camping/sleeping. Use at your discretion.
Oterisk, I haven't seen you around in a long time. If I have just missed your posts then ignore this. Otherwise, welcome back!
I remember you posting a build similar to that way back in one of my very first posts on these boards years ago. It looks like you have developed it pretty far.
Questions: If you are getting Dim Door as a 3rd level spell you qualify for Dimensional Agility by 7th and Dimensional Assault at the same level. You can have Dimensional Dervish at 9th level. Is there some reason to have Combat Expertise where it is?
Also, once you hit either 7th or 9th level would you recommend using the retraining rules from Complete Campaign?
I took about a half a year off from the boards to focus on some other things, but I'm back. Hopefully it will stay that way for a while. Thanks for the welcome!
Oddly enough, the Dimensional Dervish feats are not combat feats so the bonus feat from Eldritch Knight can't be used to further the line. If you can retrain, I absolutely recommend that. You could have dervish at level 7 if you retrained your third and fifth level feats, picking up Savant at 9.
The only other way to get access that early is going straight summoner, but it's a bit less useful due to the lack of feats.
1: Weapon Finesse (Human), Weapon Focus (Kensai), Whip Mastery
3: Slashing Grace (Whip), Flamboyant Arcana
5: Dodge, Combat Reflexes (Kensai)
6: Arcane Deed: Precise Strike
7: Mobility
That can't be right. You do not meet the requirements for Whip Mastery at level one. It gives me an idea of your feats though. Thanx.
Anexor: IMO just get Glammered on your weapon. You can make it look like whatever you want. Just use a whip and sometimes it can look like a sword. In fact, maybe talk to your GM about allowing it to not provoke if you have it look like a sword and swing it at an adjacent enemy.
1: Weapon Finesse (Human), Weapon Focus (Kensai), Whip Mastery
3: Slashing Grace (Whip), Flamboyant Arcana
5: Dodge, Combat Reflexes (Kensai)
6: Arcane Deed: Precise Strike
7: MobilityThat can't be right. You do not meet the requirements for Whip Mastery at level one. It gives me an idea of your feats though. Thanx.
Anexor: IMO just get Glammered on your weapon. You can make it look like whatever you want. Just use a whip and sometimes it can look like a sword. In fact, maybe talk to your GM about allowing it to not provoke if you have it look like a sword and swing it at an adjacent enemy.
Whoops, you're right, I had Dodge and Whip Mastery backwards. I'm probably switching out Arcane Deed at 6th for Intensify Spell and then getting Arcane Deed after I go into Shadowdancer at 8th.
What I'm considering right now for a build I have in mind is depending on how Whip/Scorpion Whip works whether it is better to go Human for the extra feat up front or Half-Elf and take Ancestral Arms to start with proficiency in both Whip and Scorpion Whip and also gain access to the Half-Elf Favored Class bonus to get an 1/6th of an Extra Arcana.
...and if doing that whether it would be better to go with a Kensai Whip Magus or a Spelldancer Whip Magus. Currently I'm very torn. The rest of my build looks much like yours, TheOddGoblin. I wanted to do the Shadowdancer thing too with the Dimensional feats... but actually I think they are not needed upon closer examination.
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What I'm considering right now for a build I have in mind is depending on how Whip/Scorpion Whip works whether it is better to go Human for the extra feat up front or Half-Elf and take Ancestral Arms to start with proficiency in both Whip and Scorpion Whip and also gain access to the Half-Elf Favored Class bonus to get an 1/6th of an Extra Arcana.
If you decide to go with Kensai (since you'll need elf/half-elf for spell dancing, unless you take adopted or get a house ruling*) You could also be a Half-Orc, you can trade out their weapon familiarity trait for "City-Raised" which gets you longsword and whip proficiency (as well as a bonus to knowledge local).
*Edit: That being said if you can get the house ruling and are allowed to take spell-dancing with any race, and you're really trying to build a nightcrawler, go tiefling and take: