Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I'd characterize it as more than just words and smiles--we operate very closely together on many matters of defense, trade, settlement support, exploration, and recruiting for instance. However, it was very important at least for the Keepers on entering into the alliance that individual settlement sovereignty was respected. We are of a very different mentality in critical issues, such as the use of force, and compromising that independence would have been a nonstarter for us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I remember at one point many people telling me and my group that Perception is Everything. To many the EBA is one Entity. They ACT like one Entity, they LOOK like one entity, they must be one entity.
If they want to have each settlement deal on their own, fine, it's their group. But don't make the mistake, they are one group.
Remember when they told everyone that they didn't have an alliance? that they were just talking about where to settle together? It's the same here.
From my view, one BIG reason for doing it like this is it leaves MANY loopholes open for them. Anytime one settlement tires of a contract, just have another EBA settlement find a way to become hostile with them, and boom, they can null the contract. And if their smart, they will have this little cancellation clause in their contracts about hostility with other EBA settlements
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can assure you, though you certainly are free to doubt my words, that such is not the case. I can only give my word on this, but I've interacted with a lot of people. I'd certainly ask any that have found duplicity in my actions to come forward.
You can deal directly with Keeper's Pass and never have any interaction at all with the EBA, so long as you are not at the same time conducting hostile actions against our allies (why would we support that, obviously, since the aggression might soon turn against us). Keepers will not leave any loopholes in our agreements to weasel out of something for convenience. From my dealings with our allies, I would say the same of them.
EDIT: I'd be particularly interested to hear if leaders in communities I have dealt most extensively with, such as Thannon in Canis Castrum and Phyllain in Golgotha feel this way. If such is the case, I'm obviously failing in my duties somewhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the nice things about being Free and Conscientious is that we don't have to have an elaborately worded document that everyone has to abide by to the letter. We generally back the plays of our friends and allies, and they generally call good plays.
Sorry, there is nothing about being Free and Conscientious that precludes the existence of an elaborately worded document, nor vice versa. I don't understand the point being made.
One issue with not having an elaborately worded document is that there can be no expectation of understanding by anyone else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the nice things about being Free and Conscientious is that we don't have to have an elaborately worded document that everyone has to abide by to the letter. We generally back the plays of our friends and allies, and they generally call good plays.Sorry, there is nothing about being Free and Conscientious that precludes the existence of an elaborately worded document, nor vice versa. I don't understand the point being made.
One issue with not having an elaborately worded document is that there can be no expectation of understanding by anyone else.
It's Just Nihimon doing what he does. He's trying to be witty and take a stab at someone.
In this case I'm assuming its Pax and our use of carefully worded documents/Policies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In this case I'm assuming its Pax and our use of carefully worded documents/Policies.
Perhaps...you might be surprised...
To be clear, while I do not think it followed from his initial proposition, which I debated, I do think his conclusion was true, "TSV (and all members of the EBA) generally back the plays of their friends and allies, and they generally call good plays."
I think that could be an internal truth of any community of like-minded individuals (including Pax).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Erian
My appology to have dragged Keepers Pass into this. I always saw this as an issue between Decius and EL but I was aware that it might drag others into this.
@EBA
This might only seem a minor issue - but I'm currently at a loss. Are all of EL being evicted from EBA territory. Is this still being discussed? In this case when should we get an answer? Or has it been discussed and it was voted against it?
I don't want to assume my reading of this thread answers the question clearly enough. And I also don't remember that this was explicitly discussed between Cheatle and me on TS yesterday. I purposefully avoided this topic. Maybe I should have asked but I didn't.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Thod,
Like I said yesterday on TS, there has been no formal vote on the matter, discussions are still going, so feel free to use Hammerfall's facilities. We aren't Evil, we are not going to attack you on sight for something like this, we aren't going to bar you from getting your stuff, we aren't going to trap you in any way. Until there is an official decision you are fine to go about your business as normal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Cheatle says, there has been no conclusion that Emerald Lodge members have somehow become universal targets of all EBA members or that we'd prohibit them from accessing their items in Hammerfall. The Keepers would be universally opposed to such a non-proportional response, but thankfully such friction is not needed as Brighthaven is not seeking this result.
As for my involvement, I step in when things cross from specifics to generalities and start mischaracterizing either my Company, my Settlement, or our participation in this Alliance. I'm also glad to support our allies when appropriate, but given our independence from one another we all allow member settlements to handle their own affairs when possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Going to step in and use this example as I see a possible loophole that Thod may not.
So, according to your policies each settlement has to individually agree to this, and I've only seen Keepers Pass and Brighthaven agree to this. Does Phaeros, the actual settlement of the accused agree, and will they also not attack Thod or his people?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because they're able to change their minds. They don't HAVE to follow EBA policy. In fact the only reason something IS EBA policy is because at the time all settlements agreed to it, the second one settlement no longer agrees with a policy, it's no longer an "EBA Policy", making the term almost useless.
After these events Phaeros could have changed there minds and now start aggression towards Thod and EL. Until we hear from a Phaeros rep, I wouldn't take the possibility off the table.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This game looks amazing? what you smoking, you got any extra?
Amazing is in the eye of the beholder. The scenes in Shroud of the Avatar, or an average zone in GuildWars 2 wins hands down when I look at the handcrafted environment, the nooks and crannies, the realistic layout and the attention to detail. However, when I walk in the mountains above Callambea, and I approach the rim and all of sudden see Callambea spread out below, while I can see across the entire Hex, knowing that the land goes on and on forever, I am wowed too.
I mean, the buildings, layout, roads, grass, trees, they all look simplistic and repetitious: but there are already wow-moments to be had, especially when the sun is low and the colors are changing into twilight colors. Off course not much later you can see a totally unrealistic Moon blind you as if it were a Sun, but thats another matter. :)
The lighting and shadows are actually pretty good in PFO: it's mostly the super basic layout of the landscape and repetitious style of buildings and ground textures that are the biggest offender.
I expect the settlements and buildings to become a lot better. The landscape will get better and get more variation and detail; just never to the level of Guilds Wars 2 or even Shroud of the Avatar. That's impossible due to the scale. I think PFO's current EE landmass must be about 100x what SOTA has planned in pure square mileage. A single (handcrafted)scene in SOta is about 1/3rd of of Hex, possibly less. Some scenes are much smaller then that, like the villages.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Erian has hit the nail on the head, I think. There seems to be a lot of confusion about what the EBA is, and what function it serves. As I understand it, the EBA is just a casual alliance of friends, rather than an entity that can exercise control over any settlement.
Contrast to the Aeonian League. For the most parts, our member settlements are independent in policy and behavior. However, we do have certain agreements that all settlements are required to uphold. These are enforced (although without teeth, but this has yet to be an issue). Thus, you CAN deal with the Aeonian League at a diplomatic level, and expect all it's member settlements to comply with that agreement.
It is a key difference. The EBA is barely more than words and smiles between friends. It is not an entity unto itself.
EBA is best described as a confederacy. We bandied the idea of using the word in our title but chickened out because of the connotations it has for US players. But that's what we are.
War, of course, makes the confederacy tighten up and do things on an alliance level a little bit more than we normally like to, but come peace time (and there will be peace time in the SE and war time everywhere else) we will loosen up as planned and continue with our plan of self-run city-states with common defense and favored trade.
I hope that sheds some light on the question of how and why EBA would react in concert against a sustained attack by a common enemy powerful enough to destroy us like EoX, but then turn around and deal with a minor scuffle with EL on a settlement level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You are correct, to each their own. I was more trying to be cute and funny, well funny anyway.
I've no doubt graphically the game will get better, and even if that wasn't necessarily the case, I'm here for the mechanics, not the graphics. That's just gravy.
Hehe, I just bounced off my own ideas about PFO's graphics on your remark. I hope I didn't sound too righteous "explaining" stuff. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As noted earlier, this is not an EBA matter. A single character from a member settlement is involved in an incident with an external party. The EBA has nothing to do with it, and indeed Thod has stated he did not intend for this to be an EBA matter. Are there any parties actually relevant to the issue at hand that have a valid complaint?
Emerald Lodge acknowledges this, so the only reason EBA is being drug into this is, I would assume, to try and tarnish its reputation. I don't see that occurring. I see a consistent message--we are sovereign settlements that align ourselves on specific matters, and those matters are publicly posted. If you want to live in an area like this, we're a good fit. If you are looking for something else, we do not begrudge that (and indeed I point folks as often to Emerald Lodge, Golgotha, Aragon, etc. as I do EBA settlements as I base my recommendation on their stated character intent).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I find it pretty awesome from reading this thread that an invader like Tigari thinks we are a unified Nation, while our trade partners in the south think we are just a loose group of friends.
That's the confederacy working as intended. For the most part you can trade and even skirmish with us at a settlement level. But kick the hornet's nest and you will feel the full wrath of the largest alliance in the game.
That's how it was drawn up, people can try to poke holes in the rationale but it sure seems to be working just fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's exactly my point Avari. I'm on my phone so not able to quote, but if this is being handle on a settlement level, both Brighthaven and Keepers Pass have chimmed in saying they are not going to be hostile (yet) to Thod (per his question if his members are no longer allowed in EBA territory, and if he's able to get his stuff from Hammerfall), BUT Phaeros has not, meaning they could treat Thod and EL with Hostilities until stated otherwise
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Goblin Squad Member
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As far as I'm concerned this is a personal matter between Thod and Decius. If there were something we felt needed to be stated publicly, we'd state it publicly.
This ain't my first rodeo, and I have no intention of going 'round and 'round with our enemies trying to "clarify" something that doesn't have anything to do with them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a matter between Phaeros and Emerald Lodge. I'm not sure how that's unclear, or involves the EBA at all. If Emerald Lodge and Phaeros relations deteriorate to a point of all-out warfare, that's another matter entirely. At present, I don't see either side calling for that. So, folks are escalating an event for no reason, other than perhaps to disparage the EBA. Thod, if I misunderstand or misrepresent your position do please state as such.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's exactly my point Avari. I'm on my phone so not able to quote, but if this is being handle on a settlement level, both Brighthaven and Keepers Pass have chimmed in saying they are not going to be hostile (yet) to Thod (per his question if his members are no longer allowed in EBA territory, and if he's able to get his stuff from Hammerfall), BUT Phaeros has not, meaning they could treat Thod and EL with Hostilities until stated otherwise
Yes, that is correct. There was a price put on the head of one of our leaders and I don't believe we have a an official response to that yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually you guys made this an EBA matter by bringing the option of revoking EL's privilege to EBA TERRITORY. Thod just made a post calling out Decius, then EBA responded. Not one entity my butt. And nice try trying to change subjects, that means I'm hitting the right spot
Nope, go back and read Cheatle's statement. Cheatle, who I guess you could sorta call the "president" of the EBA council, very clearly tells Thod that he is fed up with the extortion and that he will RECOMMEND to the EBA council, actions at the EBA level. At that point some talks happened at it doesn't appear anything at that level will happen.
That's the political challenge of running a loose alliance that EBA and all the other "free association alliances" in the game will have to deal with constantly. The price of freedom, is very often a little chaos ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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And we should be clear on what Cheatle proposed--restricting access to harvesting (already covered under the EBA Territorial announcement; no access is granted without express permissions) and to crafting stations (a matter that would involve commitment and enforcement from each settlement). There was no mention of holding materials in the vault, or attacking Emerald Lodge members in EBA territory.
Allowing this event to go off course and disparage the EBA, while building up other parties, is certainly not a good means of maintaining neutrality. I am hopeful that future events will provide better support for the neutral stance of Emerald Lodge with regard to all parties.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If that was the case then I wouldn't be here and someone better at this foruming would be feeding Thod things to say.
Thod is MY friend and I see possible holes in things being said in this thread, so I'm speaking up for him..
And Avari, again your just reiterating my point. A claim was made against a member of Phaeros, and then a recommendation of action (an action of itself) was brought to the EBA level. No actions were desided. So by KP and BH saying they will not engage hostile actions against EL if they get their stuff from Hammferfall, does not mean Phaeros won't.
So going back to Thods question, can he expect hostilities if he attempts to retrieve his stuff? Or is Phaeros going to continue to skirt the question?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cheatle, who I guess you could sorta call the "president" of the EBA council, very clearly tells Thod that he is fed up with the extortion and that he will RECOMMEND to the EBA council, actions at the EBA level.
This is one of the big differences between confederacy implemented in the Everbloom Alliance and confederacy implemented in the Aeonian League. The caucus votes on alliance level topics, like an embargo against Emerald Lodge, then the League Scribe (who's identity is anonymous) publishes our decision on the relevant forums. The Scribe makes clarifications as needed. Settlement represents relay these decisions on their respective message boards for their citizens to review. The League speaks with a unified voice, EBA does not.
The price of freedom, is very often a little chaos ;)
Might be the LN in me, but our member settlements are free because of inter-governmental centralization. There are no possibilities of overlapping jurisdictions or contradictory messages. They can relax knowing somebody has a plan.
Canis Castrum, however, has not experienced shady trade deals with Keeper's Pass or Phaeros. Gold & Steel Trading Company is even on Erian's trusted merchants list. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pretty much what they said.
I suggested a course of action based on prior events leading up to Thod's response in private. There have been several events that you might not be privy to that have happened, and I personally said that I would bring them to light if it happened again.
Edit: @Tig, I specifically called him out on something he did in private, not that he has an issue with Decius, two separate things are going on here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are no possibilities of... contradictory messages.
I like you guys, and I wish you well, but that statement can't possibly be true. I'm glad that you haven't experienced the kind of inquisition we experience with every public statement we make, but there's no possible way you have enough control over every forum poster in the AL to say there is no "possibility" of one of them posting something contradictory to what another posted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cheatle, who I guess you could sorta call the "president" of the EBA council, very clearly tells Thod that he is fed up with the extortion and that he will RECOMMEND to the EBA council, actions at the EBA level.This is one of the big differences between confederacy implemented in the Everbloom Alliance and confederacy implemented in the Aeonian League. The caucus votes on alliance level topics, like an embargo against Emerald Lodge, then the League Scribe (who's identity is anonymous) publishes our decision on the relevant forums. The Scribe makes clarifications as needed. Settlement represents relay these decisions on their respective message boards for their citizens to review. The League speaks with a unified voice, EBA does not.
The price of freedom, is very often a little chaos ;)
Might be the LN in me, but our member settlements are free because of inter-governmental centralization. There are no possibilities of overlapping jurisdictions or contradictory messages. They can relax knowing somebody has a plan.
Canis Castrum, however, has not experienced shady trade deals with Keeper's Pass or Phaeros. Gold & Steel Trading Company is even on Erian's trusted merchants list. :)
Absolutely Omni. EBA is Neutral Good and I believe the the term confederacy fits us a bit better. Aeonian League from my understanding is a bit more of a "United States" and more centralized. EoX is an empire and the Highlanders are more like the greek city states. All fascinating stuff, huh? We should do a seminar at PFU together ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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And Avari, again your just reiterating my point. A claim was made against a member of Phaeros, and then a recommendation of action (an action of itself) was brought to the EBA level. No actions were desided. So by KP and BH saying they will not engage hostile actions against EL if they get their stuff from Hammferfall, does not mean Phaeros won't.So going back to Thods question, can he expect hostilities if he attempts to retrieve his stuff? Or is Phaeros going to continue to skirt the question?
Tigari, with all due respect, unless Thod has officially declared you his forum lawyer, who the hell are you to be demanding an official Phaeros response on his behalf?
We are talking to Thod and an official response may or may not happen at a settlement level. Preventing Thod from picking up his stuff seems unlikely, since there is no EBA wide sanctions against EL, it would have to come from Hammerfall to deny access to EL. As far as I know Hammerfall is still a trade partner of EL's.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...there's no possible way you have enough control over every forum poster in the AL to say there is no "possibility" of one of them posting something contradictory to what another posted.
You are correct. I can't speak to any deals made between EBA or Sunholm for example, I expect that Kadere would inform me on that matter were they relevant to Canis Castrum. Mostly because Kadere is a cool guy! I also cannot speak to statements made on the company level nor the actions of our individual constituencies. What I can say is that the League Scribe is accepted as a trusted, primary source.
I respect EBA's choice to not have that kind of centralization. Mostly just wanted to compare/contrast our two different alliances.
Absolutely Omni. EBA is Neutral Good and I believe the the term confederacy fits us a bit better. Aeonian League from my understanding is a bit more of a "United States" and more centralized. All fascinating stuff, huh? We should do a seminar at PFU together ;)
Actually that is a good idea! We're not the United States though. We're closer to a tribal confederacy. There is no chief executive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Absolutely Omni. EBA is Neutral Good and I believe the the term confederacy fits us a bit better. Aeonian League from my understanding is a bit more of a "United States" and more centralized. EoX is an empire and the Highlanders are more like the greek city states. All fascinating stuff, huh? We should do a seminar at PFU together ;)
I will gladly host and be the moderator if you are all interested. Next Wednesday 3/18, 9PM Eastern. Governments and Politics in the River Kingdom. Who is representing each of the groups? :)
Edit: I think this discussion would be a great way to get people to know each of the major blocs and which one fits them best.
Edit (again): Please PM me with who from your group can be present and I will set up a plan, debate rules, etc. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will gladly host and be the moderator if you are all interested. Next Wednesday 3/18, 8PM Eastern. Politics in the River Kingdom. Who is representing each of the groups? :)
Absolutely Omni. EBA is Neutral Good and I believe the the term confederacy fits us a bit better. Aeonian League from my understanding is a bit more of a "United States" and more centralized. EoX is an empire and the Highlanders are more like the greek city states. All fascinating stuff, huh? We should do a seminar at PFU together ;)
I believe it would be "governments in PFO". I'm sure a round table from the different blocs could be brought in for that if people are interested in it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tigari, I believe you already have your answer, from above, when Avari states, "We are talking to Thod and an official response may or may not happen at a settlement level. Preventing Thod from picking up his stuff seems unlikely, since there is no EBA wide sanctions against EL, it would have to come from Hammerfall to deny access to EL. As far as I know Hammerfall is still a trade partner of EL's."
If Thod, after those talks, wants to make a public statement would you not afford him the right to do so? Demanding some response now, outside of the conversation that's actually happening between the two relevant parties, seems odd. If Thod returns here and states that in fact no talks occurred, then there might be something to discuss. Otherwise it seems this is just being strewn out in public for no good reason.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If that was the case then I wouldn't be here and someone better at this foruming would be feeding Thod things to say.
Thod is MY friend and I see possible holes in things being said in this thread, so I'm speaking up for him..
And Avari, again your just reiterating my point. A claim was made against a member of Phaeros, and then a recommendation of action (an action of itself) was brought to the EBA level. No actions were desided. So by KP and BH saying they will not engage hostile actions against EL if they get their stuff from Hammferfall, does not mean Phaeros won't.
So going back to Thods question, can he expect hostilities if he attempts to retrieve his stuff? Or is Phaeros going to continue to skirt the question?
Considering your personal history with Phaeros I'm not sure why you think Phaeros is obligated to answer your questions. If Thod has such concerns he knows who our leaders and diplomats are. He can contact them more directly if he still has concerns about the answer he was given.
That said, if anyone takes an honest look at Phaeros and asks the question "Does Phaeros have a sustained history of going out and attacking those who are not affiliated with groups that have declared it enemy or groups/individuals who haven't first taken hostile actions toward its members?"
The answer is a resounding no. You do. Do you plan to attack Thod after he gets his stuff and is transporting it back to EL? *grin*
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wow - that has gone suddently interesting ...
Just as clarification - I never ever assumed I wouldn't be able to get our belongings back from Hammerfall. Otherwise you would have already seen a balistic response here.
I brought up the issue with the vault in Hammerfall mainly for practical reasons. If we are told to leave Hammerfall then there is more the question of timing and actually carrying the stuff elsewhere and doing it safely.
Great to hear Tigari is my friend - at least I don't have to worry him attacking me should I carry stuff away. Actually I would be more concerned about bandits (PvP) or monsters as about EBA.
It also takes time to ensure an alternative place. I have send out inquiries to Canis Castrum (first choice) and Bernstein (second) as alternatives to Hammerfall.
I have no fear that EBA, Phaeros or Brighthaven will treat me badly in the respect of keeping our belongings.
Oh - and in respect to the bounty - I see this more RP as real consequence. I can't afford to pay it out more as once - and how bad is a single death in this game when Pharasma is your friend.
The only inconvenience is - you won't know whenever it might happen. But we know gatherers in the coal fields have the same risk - or gatherers which go into lands they don't belong.
And no - I might be a fool and jester - but I control fully my own movements and I'm not a puppet of anyone.