Honour in the River Kingdoms – OOC thread


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Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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Two days ago I gave a talk at the Pathfinder University about diplomacy in PFO. This gave me the idea for the story. Around the same time an incident happened. One of our members learned a very painful lesson. He wanted to carry several valuable crafted goods and hard earned raw materials from Emerald Lodge to Marchmont. He had used some +4 ingredients to create a +3 item. It was his own stupidity that he couldn’t resist to attack a seemingly simple group of monsters – only to miss a champion among them.

The story could have ended here – but when he came back to his husk he saw someone looting it. A fight started (don’t ask me who started it) – words were typed in the chat that surely were not the most diplomatic on either side – and my member lost and described the behaviour of the looter in words that I can’t post here.

As a settlement leader – what do you do? Especially what do you do when the victim is not a starting player was clearly outclassed, the opposing side seems to think they don’t have acted improperly in any way but you feel your own settlement has just been bullied – especially if around the time the EBA disallows gathering from nodes in their area while there hardly can be anything more juicy as a husk containing many hours of gathering and crafting.

As diplomat you sit on a powder keg with fire all around you and a good chance it blows up in your face if you do anything.

The whole idea of this game is that actions have consequences. PvP can be done in different ways. Asked in the lecture at the PFU I said that I deliberately use Theodum for board thread PvP. So using Theodum seemed just the right answer to make a stance and to display that the Emerald Lodge isn’t bullied – by anyone.

Now for would be diplomats I would say to not repeat what I’m doing here. It is very unlikely you will get away with it. Actions have consequences – this also includes postings on these boards. I’ve worked hard to maximize the effect but to minimize the consequences – but I’m not in control what happens after I hit the submit button. And there is still the possibility that this whole lot blows up in my face.

I’m sure the victim of Theodum will feel backstabbed and treated unjust. Having given the player the chance to apologize or to hand back the items he got and not posting anything with Theodum he regarded this as threats, blackmail and extortion.

I personally react very negative to such accusations.

Welcome to PFO and the River Kingdoms. The way I see it I allowed the player an honourable diplomatic stand and deliver. The player didn’t accept it – so he will have to live with the consequences.
I’m sure he sees it differently and some will now paint me as a bully, a blackmailer and an extortionist. Welcome to a game working as expected.

I have to live with the consequences of my own actions and I bank on the fact that the majority reading this will rather agree with my actions – or just will see this neutrally and enjoy Schadenfreude.

I want to make sure it is understood that this action was the action of a single player and in no way should be seen as the Emerald Lodge trying to undermine another settlement. Unfortunately the player being a leading member of a large settlement inside a large alliance using the same name in character and out of character will make this whole thread very explosive.

I have a lot of respect to the hard work of Phaeros and the Everbloom Alliance. They do a lot of great work to make this game better – and that includes the player who gets outed here. But I’m not accepting misbehaviour inside our borders and inside the game from anyone – no matter which alliance they are from or how powerful they are.

You bully us or any visitor to us at your own peril inside the borders of the Emerald Lodge. You have what you hold. Have fun with the ill-gotten spoils you got from Bellows McGurk. We don’t need them back anymore. I hope the price you paid was worth it.

Anyone wanting to post in this or the other thread – please keep it classy.

Goblin Squad Member

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@Thod,

If you are hoping for honorable banditry, you best hope that you run into UNC bandits. Although I can't speak to if there are others, I only speak for our practices.

On my three most recent hunting expeditions, we (two of us) killed three individuals and never the same character a second time. On two occasions I (we) had the opportunity to kill and we did not. In one encounter we discovered that the victim was a fellow citizen of Aragon, and I returned his times and some extra coin for the mishap.

As a practice, we may not completely loot the husk. This is not to bait the character into a second kill, it is a matter of only taking the coin, recipes and any choice items.

A recent husk looting victim can attest to that on my part, if he wishes to do so. I came upon a husk in the wilderness. I looted a few items, and then the victim returned. I knew from the mobs in the area that he was killed by a Goblin, and a Goblin Sergeant. Those mobs are white to me, and so the victim would have been an easy kill.

In local I said "hey" and jumped up once. He came in and took the remaining belongings and left.

It is my hope that all members of UNC or our fellow citizens of Aragon, practice banditry in a non mean spirited way. This includes not using General or Local chat for purposes of mocking any other player or organization.

If approached in a diplomatic fashion, and specific items are requested to be returned (if they survived) a trade may be possible in a mutually secure location (NPC) that is logistically close to UNC's home area (most likely Marchmont).

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

@Bluddwolf

But, but, but - I was told here on the boards you are evil

Goblin Squad Member

@Thod,

You know Thod, you constantly provoke those around you, and not just those of us in the EBA. Fair enough something happened you didn't like, but you should just say it, making a roleplay post villianize the situation more than it actually is, ok propaganda, but constantly in poor taste. On top of it, I don't know how much of this is even true, or if it is true what the context is behind the situation.

Until I know more I am going to reserve judgement on the situation, other than you liking to provoke people whether in public or private, you call someone else a bully, but you say leading up to the circumstances it was the persons own fault. I will just wait to see how this develops.

Goblin Squad Member

Alright,

I have been informed of the situation and what happened. No one was bullied, as a matter of fact it sounds like Decius tried to help the guy until he turned into a Jerk and Decius walked away from the situation. So, I am just going to walk away from another Thod propaganda piece, good job in being neutral Thod, and trying to maintain that neutrality, it really really shows.

Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:

@Bluddwolf

But, but, but - I was told here on the boards you are evil

Rumors of my being evil (character or personal) are largely exaggerated and generally put forth by a very small group of individuals (less than 5).

UNC actions in game have been mostly non aggressive, our banditry has been minimal (not many targets out there) and have been within our stated goals, and in character.

I know nothing of this event described above. I have fought Decious in the past (in game) and I expect that I would be on TSV's KOS list for certain. I do know that he is far more aggressive than his Paizo forum personae would indicate.

Perhaps this is what is really being pointed out here Cheatle?

This is not the first incident where forum personae and in-game actions are not matching expectations in a positive way.

I think it is safe to say that few if any of us would have expected EBA lands to be NBSI, without just cause. Yet they are, and I am witness to it first hand.

I would very much like to do the Pub Hop and visit every tavern in game, but it is likely I could not do that in the SE, without being repeatedly killed even though there has been no in game justification for it (and especially not with my Alt).

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

@Teo
I did contact Nihimon - I went several times to the T7V TS server yesterday. I left a message that I was on the Golarion server while helping the Ogg escalation.
I tried to speak to Decius - but it seemed not possible. I'm not saying that Decius avoided me. And I'm the first to admit that my member likely didn't behave well when he noticed Decius.
But I only had his description of the encounter and his feelings about it afterwards that I could go on.
What would you do if something simlar happens outside Brighthaven and one of your members complains. Let me know what I should do better next time.

edit: There are always 2 sides in a communication and I'm sure both sides have acted in ways that the other side felt was wrong. I only became really upset by it when I learned it had happened inside our core six. This after the EBA declared their borders and what others are not allowed to do inside them.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:


I think it is safe to say that few if any of us would have expected EBA lands to be NBSI, without just cause. Yet they are, and I am witness to it first hand.

EBA is not NBSI. We're NRDS with a mechanic to turn yourself red after a warning. Please do not spread misinformation, as you have complained that others are doing about you.

Thod, my understanding is that Decius attempted to help the EL member and when he was met with hostility and felt like he was being shaken down, he decided to just give up and leave.

Putting a bounty on someone's head is perfectly fine, even if there's not really a good reason for it. If you put a bounty on my head for posting this post, I would not complain, I would just deal with it. However, causing this to be a bigger deal than it should have been is not really something a good diplomat should be doing. What you're doing here is jumping on the anti-EBA bandwagon using something that should be kept on a personal level.

Goblin Squad Member

@Bluddwolf, I you want to do a pub hop, I am sure we can arrange that.

Goblin Squad Member

@Thod,

I usually don't post something like this, unless its official and I have proof. Second, as a leader I can't have a knee jerk reaction and just post stuff like this on the forums. I give it time to investigate incidents like this, even if it takes days (and in one case weeks).

In diplomacy all of your hard work can be undone by a simple sentence spoken too soon. So, I try to have patience, even if I can't get in contact with someone right away.

I can say however, that Nihimon was gone a good piece yesterday, because I was looking for him too.

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:
Thod wrote:

@Bluddwolf

But, but, but - I was told here on the boards you are evil

...

This is not the first incident where forum personae and in-game actions are not matching expectations in a positive way.

I think it is safe to say that few if any of us would have expected EBA lands to be NBSI, without just cause. Yet they are, and I am witness to it first hand.

...

Well, that's not anyone in EBA's fault that you assumed a forum personae would act a given way and it is not living up to your expectations. It's not our purpose (or desire for many) to live up to your expectations. As far as a "positive way" is concerned let's clearly define that it is n't positive for you. It is for many, many others.

EBA is is not NBSI. We've established public policies that anyone can be directed to with respect to behavior in lands we have now declared and are holding. Territory control is part of the design of this game, remember?

As Throgrim said we are NRDS...to people who have not made declaration or have taken past action to prey upon our members. You and your settlement have made it very clear time and again over the years that you consider Phaeros (and the EBA) fair game to attack and steal from.

That noted, I find it unfathomable that you would not understand why we wouldn't consider anyone from your sphere of influence (settlement) KOS.

The expectation that I have of those affiliated with Aragon is they see me as a member of Phaeros and the EBA as a target to be attacked. Why, then, am I not allowed to defend myself (or my friends) OR if I am why am I only allowed to defend myself in a manner approved by you?

Why should I only be allowed to worry about your combat character but not be equally guarded for your tavern roaming one? Because of your say so?

Just about every reason you use to justify stopping and robbing EBA non-combatants I believe is equally valid to intercept your non-combatant.

Many of us in the EBA have had our characters jumped and killed by NC folks where they were outnumbered, yet you don't see us coming to forums complaining about it or doing so in game. No, we do as was suggested: We mobilize and do something about it in game.

That's what the ones who expected us to be defenseless told us to do here on these forums pre-Alpha and EE. Now that we are doing it, now defending ourselves is a huge problem that we are made out to be horrible people for doing so.

We're being disparaged for claiming territory and defending ourselves. Things you are supposed to do in this game. I mean, wow. Just, wow.

As for the issue with Bellows...Having known Decius for 2+ years, debated with him over various topics on voice coms...and having been in voice comms with him when this happened...Decius has nothing to worry about with respect to being honorable.


Quote:
Many of us in the EBA have had our characters jumped and killed by NC folks where they were outnumbered, yet you don't see us coming to forums complaining about it or doing so in game

Did you completely miss everything that has happened on the forums for the last month? Or do you have selective attention?

Let me recap for you what I've been able to glean from the forum drama:

One of the larger semi-independent companies in game, that Gemstone company stopped doing any banditry of any kind apparently because of the complaints from EBA.

And additionally, Gologtha has now seemingly stopped doing raiding as well after the players in Blackwood Glade (an EBA settlement) complained on the forums here and some rage quit.

Goblin Squad Member

@V'rel,

No member of UNC has raided any holding or committed any act of banditry in the SE. The only contact we have had with TSV has been hostile contact within the tower hexes near Aragon.

Last week was the first time I had traveled to the SE, and when we (there was two of us) entered Keepers Pass, we were attacked. Well, to be clear, I attacked Nihimon first when I saw him attacking my travel partner.

Our intent was to visit the Town Hall fir the accolade, which Nihimon can attest that I walked over to that spot, after having been killed. I then walked over to the Tavern. Where I had logged off because it was late. I gave credit to TSV for not respawn camping on either this forum or the GW forums.

The point is, we did not complain about it and our expectation was not that we would have been treated otherwise by TSV, but we were not in TSV's settlement.

Are we to expect that TSV will KOS in all settlements in the SE?

@Thorgrim,

I did not base my impression that the EBA is NBSI on any second hand account, it was my personal experience. You are obviously the one that has been misinformed or are relaying misinformation. Or perhaps, EBA has some rogue elements, which is likely and understandable,

No member of any company or individual has been attacked in Aragon "on sight". It is our policy not to sh&t where we sleep.

Goblin Squad Member

Actually KP is supposed to be Combat Free, and from your version of the story it seems TSV broke that KP rule.

Goblin Squad Member

Al Smithy wrote:
One of the larger semi-independent companies in game, that Gemstone company stopped doing any banditry of any kind apparently because of the complaints from EBA.

That's an interesting take on it. The thread that I read was Who is TEO at war with.

In my reading, it appears that TEO (my settlement, for the record) was in an escalation hex, as were members of the Gemstone company. The Gemstone guys had a bad pull or a glitch and a character died. TEO didn't attack the fellow, but did loot his body. When the Gemstone guys complainedtook exception to this in the forums, the TEO crew basically shrugged and said: one of your members kills our people in our allies' town - this is part of the price you pay.

Al Smithy wrote:
And additionally, Gologtha has now seemingly stopped doing raiding as well after the players in Blackwood Glade (an EBA settlement) complained on the forums here and some rage quit.

And some Golgothans were still killing people near Keepers Pass two-three days ago. The departure of the settlement leader of BWG a week prior didn't put a halt to the raiding.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Last week was the first time I had traveled to the SE, and when we (there was two of us) entered Keepers Pass, we were attacked. Well, to be clear, I attacked Nihimon first when I saw him attacking my travel partner.

Just curious, who was your travel partner? It seems to be relevant to Nihimon's action that you report.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Last week was the first time I had traveled to the SE, and when we (there was two of us) entered Keepers Pass, we were attacked. Well, to be clear, I attacked Nihimon first when I saw him attacking my travel partner.
Gol Tigari wrote:
Actually KP is supposed to be Combat Free, and from your version of the story it seems TSV broke that KP rule.

Bluddwolf is lying. Surprise, surprise.

I didn't attack anyone inside KP first, and I didn't see Bluddwolf until I was inside KP. Bluddwolf and his traveling partner foolishly attacked me inside KP right in front of the guards. The guards killed them. When I saw Bluddwolf run back - still flagged red to me - I killed him.

Goblin Squad Member

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The neutrality of Emerald Lodge was convenient for the Tower NAP. Now that the Tower NAP is defunct, there is no longer any need whatsoever for any Settlement to bend over backwards to help Thod maintain EL's neutrality, or to pretend that EL's neutrality is in any way advantageous for anyone other than EL.

Goblin Squad Member

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The main reason I personally (not speaking for any settlement or group) is I'm interested and like what he's doing. I want to see it take off and how he builds it's. For me that's enought reason to assist him when he needs a little help.

Goblin Squad Member

@Bluddwulf

Well, I guess it was just poor timing that you arrived at KP with a host of Golgothans, the same one that went on to attack BWG later that night, and were considered to be in with them. As I was standing right next to you standing next to Nihimon I know what went down there. Your companion flagged up which is why they were attacked.

That said, other members of Aragon had all along been coming down and attacking. Doc even got one of my crafters in KP and then logged out. As he was of your settlement and as you had not condemned such attacks I have only to reason then that you condone it and all other members of Aragon condone it. So be it.

No, you were not in TSV's settlement. You were in the settlement of a TSV ally. An ally who had also suffered attacks from residents of your settlement. Aragons's policies are their own, but for us, defending an ally is the same as defending a settlement member. Very little distinction drawn. If KP or BH says "hey we are being attacked" I can assure you members of Phaeros will show up to fight. The same can be said for KP and BH members as well. We have all aided each other over the last few weeks and become even stronger, more coordinated allies for it.

TSV will respect the rights of all settlements in the EBA and their individual laws. If Erian walks you into EBA lands and into KP to the tavern, it's none of my business. If I find you roaming EBA lands in the company of your comrades, I can only reason that you are here to kill/rob from EBA members and would be shirking my role/responsibilities by not engaging you since the EBA does not have a contract with UNC.

@Tigari

KP is combat free, until you, Elsworth, Tabomo and others come down and make it not combat free. Then we fight for a while, then most times you guys go home. Unfortunately for BWG you didn't last week. Combat free does not mean people won't defend themselves. During that evening, with respect to any engagements in KP proper, TSV members attacked only when GOL and Aragon members went red.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
The neutrality of Emerald Lodge was convenient for the Tower NAP. Now that the Tower NAP is defunct, there is no longer any need whatsoever for any Settlement to bend over backwards to help Thod maintain EL's neutrality, or to pretend that EL's neutrality is in any way advantageous for anyone other than EL.

I'd argue that it's good for the game for there to be existing examples that there are multiple ways to play the political game well and successfully, and it pleases me that something matching the idea of a neutral Emerald Lodge is possible in our community.

Obviously, though, nobody's going to get anything for free, and in order to be an example of success Thod is going to have to continue to be actually successful. I personally hope that he makes it.

Goblin Squad Member

You are misunderstanding me Vrel. I mean withing the settlement itself, not the lands surrounding. And I did not mean any of the times I myself was attacked, as I perfectly understand why I was attacked and would expect nothing less. Nihimon himself already addressed the issue I pointed out by saying he was just defending himself and was not the one who attacked first within Keepers Pass.

Goblin Squad Member

I may have cast too large a net in my reply as my last sentenced addressed KP proper.

That said Nihimon rarely has had to attack first. It seems to be a badge of some sort to kill him by most of our enemy. He's always getting attacked. Sorry boss. *shrug* That night was no different.

Goblin Squad Member

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I do like the idea of keeping Emerald Lodge neutral and assisting the settlement to do so; I sincerely hope that happens.

In the future though Thod, and you know I'm a fan of yours, raise the issue with the settlement leaders and keep these issues private. You know very well Decius is a admirable person and this issue could have been easily settled.


V'rel Vusoryn wrote:


That said Nihimon rarely has had to attack first. It seems to be a badge of some sort to kill him by most of our enemy. He's always getting attacked.

Simple name recognition explains a lot of it while IFF remains SNAFU.

I'd be interested to see if forum familiar names get less attention once we have proper IFF like company or settlement names.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Gol Tigari wrote:
The main reason I personally (not speaking for any settlement or group) is I'm interested and like what he's doing. I want to see it take off and how he builds it's. For me that's enought reason to assist him when he needs a little help.

Are you aware of the irony of defending me? You could have been first on the bounty list of EL for your interactions with Flitwyck (I'm 90% sure it was you - apology if it was another Golgothan like Tink).

I never raised a bounty or followed it up by different means - mainly because it happened in Hammerfall territory and I felt I could not make a valid complaint in this case. And the loss was meaningless.

Before that there was a Sensou incident. They paid back 30 coal - and I hadn't even asked for anything back. I mainly tried to ensure that the banditry of an EL member wasn't marketed as a glorious win against Golgotha (as they might have mistaken Pinki for a Golgothan). Oh - and this was in Golgothan territory (on the way back from Iron Gauntlet / the coal fields).

I try to be consistens and not to play preferences.

Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:
I try to be consistens and not to play preferences.

That sounds pretty neutral to me.

Goblin Squad Member

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Savage Grace wrote:
V'rel Vusoryn wrote:


That said Nihimon rarely has had to attack first. It seems to be a badge of some sort to kill him by most of our enemy. He's always getting attacked.

Simple name recognition explains a lot of it while IFF remains SNAFU.

I'd be interested to see if forum familiar names get less attention once we have proper IFF like company or settlement names.

There will be dancing and alcohol the day reliable IFF is introduced. That said, I think amongst those that fight most often there will still be a bit of the name recognition/target preference factor.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Last week was the first time I had traveled to the SE, and when we (there was two of us) entered Keepers Pass, we were attacked. Well, to be clear, I attacked Nihimon first when I saw him attacking my travel partner.
Gol Tigari wrote:
Actually KP is supposed to be Combat Free, and from your version of the story it seems TSV broke that KP rule.

Bluddwolf is lying. Surprise, surprise.

I didn't attack anyone inside KP first, and I didn't see Bluddwolf until I was inside KP. Bluddwolf and his traveling partner foolishly attacked me inside KP right in front of the guards. The guards killed them. When I saw Bluddwolf run back - still flagged red to me - I killed him.

I don't know what I could be lying about, I clearly stated I attacked you first? I saw you moving in / attacking (?) my partner. Maybe you were casting predatory spells, don't know and it doesn't matter. I engaged regardless, but that was not our original intent to have a fight in KP.

I also didn't know that there was a raid there earlier. Although we have access to Golgotha and AGC TS, we do not coordinate unless that is expressly set up.

We also don't keep tabs on what other companies of Aragon are up to. We are chaotic like that.

As for lying, not only should you be surprised, you should be stunned! I never lie, although I freely admit I can be wrong, misinformed or I just see it a different way.

If my partner was not being attacked, then we need grouped flagging, so that it is clear when someone is an aggressor as opposed to just appearing like one or sounding like one.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
I attacked Nihimon first when I saw him attacking my travel partner.
Bluddwolf wrote:
I don't know what I could be lying about, I clearly stated I attacked you first? I saw you moving in / attacking (?) my partner.

I see you're walking it back now, but you did not see me attack your travel partner because I did not attack your travel partner. I was too busy laughing at the fact that y'all flagged up right in front of the guards.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:


We also don't keep tabs on what other companies of Aragon are up to. We are chaotic like that.

Well, maybe you should start. "Being chaotic" (loose toss toward the alignment card) doesn't justify not having communication and/or coordination. The attention your settlement received and that is part of the subject of a post Doc has going on the GW forums was due in no small part to your other companies actions in KP.

UNC members will be held accountable for the actions of their fellow settlement members, regardless of company affiliation. It's the same standard you and your comrades have applied toward EBA members since long before there was an EBA. Obviously if one of you do it/condone it, then you all do, right?


V'rel Vusoryn wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:
V'rel Vusoryn wrote:


That said Nihimon rarely has had to attack first. It seems to be a badge of some sort to kill him by most of our enemy. He's always getting attacked.

Simple name recognition explains a lot of it while IFF remains SNAFU.

I'd be interested to see if forum familiar names get less attention once we have proper IFF like company or settlement names.

There will be dancing and alcohol the day reliable IFF is introduced. That said, I think amongst those that fight most often there will still be a bit of the name recognition/target preference factor.

Yup, and the AoE-ing squishies might always remain a favorite first target or it might be the healers, who knows?

Goblin Squad Member

For those of us in the cheap seats, can someone clarify "IFF?"

Goblin Squad Member

Identify Friend (or) Foe


Identify Friend or Foe - system developed in air traffic control

Goblin Squad Member

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Alright,

I have to re-weigh in here.

I was sent the private messages from both sides, all I have to say is that Thod has damaged his reputation with the EBA. I will be asking the council to revoke our recognition of neutrality and revoking any rights that EL has to harvest resources in our area or using crafting facilities.

This was character assassination, as well as following through on an extortion threat. To be perfectly honest, if Thod had sent me the same message he sent to Nihimon on Saturday @6:36PM, it wouldn't have even gone this far, I would have called him in the forums for extortion, a tactic he has used before, one which I told him personally in voice that if he used against TEO or EBA again I would call him out on it.

I am not going to ask for aggression against the people of EL, but there are repercussion for extortion, and closing off our borders might get the picture across: WE DO NOT SUCCUMB TO EXTORTION.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Thod wrote:

@Teo

I did contact Nihimon - I went several times to the T7V TS server yesterday. I left a message that I was on the Golarion server while helping the Ogg escalation.
I tried to speak to Decius - but it seemed not possible. I'm not saying that Decius avoided me. And I'm the first to admit that my member likely didn't behave well when he noticed Decius.
But I only had his description of the encounter and his feelings about it afterwards that I could go on.
What would you do if something simlar happens outside Brighthaven and one of your members complains. Let me know what I should do better next time.

edit: There are always 2 sides in a communication and I'm sure both sides have acted in ways that the other side felt was wrong. I only became really upset by it when I learned it had happened inside our core six. This after the EBA declared their borders and what others are not allowed to do inside them.

You did get ahold of me via Paizo PM. I was on the TSV TS for more than half of the time since I gave you the address, hardly 'avoiding' behavior, even though we didn't overlap.

You attempted to extort "reparations" based on dubious reasoning, making the implicit threat to engage in forum warfare. That resulted in four major errors on your part: Firstly, not realizing that I have already precommitted to reject all extortion and blackmail attempts; secondly, making a threat that was more costly to you that to me; thirdly, making your threat not significant to me at all (separate from making it more costly to you); and fourthly, having made (but not precommitted) those threats and being advised that I have precommitted to reject them, following through with them.

Now, to discuss the matter of honor:
You Have What You Hold: Once it falls from your cold dead fingers, you don't hold it anymore; once you pick it back up again, you do. Trying to lay a claim to goods which you don't hold is in direct contravention of the River Freedoms.

Goblin Squad Member

V'rel Vusoryn wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:


We also don't keep tabs on what other companies of Aragon are up to. We are chaotic like that.

Well, maybe you should start. "Being chaotic" (loose toss toward the alignment card) doesn't justify not having communication and/or coordination. The attention your settlement received and that is part of the subject of a post Doc has going on the GW forums was due in no small part to your other companies actions in KP.

UNC members will be held accountable for the actions of their fellow settlement members, regardless of company affiliation. It's the same standard you and your comrades have applied toward EBA members since long before there was an EBA. Obviously if one of you do it/condone it, then you all do, right?

Actually I don't paint with broad strokes, and don't hold all citizens of a settlement responsible for the actions of a few. That might be how TSV does things, but not the UNC.

I actually have a very cordial discourse with TEO (Cheatle and LifeDragn), and we have to my knowledge never had a real blow up, drag out argument. There are are were a few members of TSV I could say the same for.

As I said earlier, I don't speak for AGC, nor do I keep tabs on them or their actions. TSV may want to hold all in Aragon to be accountable for that, but I don't believe you, Nihimon or any other speaks for the whole of EBA either (perhaps LifeDragn or Cheatle does??).

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Cheatle wrote:

Alright,

I have to re-weigh in here.

I was sent the private messages from both sides, all I have to say is that Thod has damaged his reputation with the EBA. I will be asking the council to revoke our recognition of neutrality and revoking any rights that EL has to harvest resources in our area or using crafting facilities.

This was character assassination, as well as following through on an extortion threat. To be perfectly honest, if Thod had sent me the same message he sent to Nihimon on Saturday @6:36PM, it wouldn't have even gone this far, I would have called him in the forums for extortion, a tactic he has used before, one which I told him personally in voice that if he used against TEO or EBA again I would call him out on it.

I am not going to ask for aggression against the people of EL, but there are repercussion for extortion, and closing off our borders might get the picture across: WE DO NOT SUCCUMB TO EXTORTION.

The plot twists in this OCC / RP thread are epic!

Goblin Squad Member

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FROM THE ACTUAL VICTIMIZED PARTY:

So, for those of you speculating about the encounter, I relate both the truth of it and options for how it is handled in roleplay. The merchant in question was Bellows McGurk. I was carrying a rather large shipment of goods from EL to Marchmont which included a nice haul for any thief. There were a couple of +3 items, some T2 resources and other goodies.

I wasn't paying the best of attention to my direction and ended up running directly into a group of monsters. Instead of running, I chose to fight, not noticing the yellow critter in the middle of the fray. I got hosed as the group of monsters was pretty large.

Anyway, upon returning to my corpse, I noticed it being looted by Decius. As I approached, Decius stopped looting and ran. No helping. No conversation. No "I tried to help this character and he was a douche." He just ran.

It was my bad. My fault. He's responsible for his part and I mine, but let's be clear. It was a loot and run. It was not a "Hey, sorry you died and I took your stuff, so let me help you out."

I decided to keep it in play and spoke up over general, assuming that general was still Hex chat. I called Decius out over General and accused him in play of being a thieving coward. He chose to take it out of play and suggested that he petition GW to abate the "whining coming from General." I gave him a couple of more shouts and then engaged him in a direct conversation. We chatted, he was unrepentant. That's fine - that's his choice. He did not see that he did anything wrong, which is a valid viewpoint. That ended our conversation. He did not offer reparations or apology and I didn't expect either.

I don't expect him to face any kind of out of game retribution, nor should Thod for role-playing this through to whatever end. I'm actually glad this came about because it's helping to shore up how settlements will deal with this and why a system of nobles might be a good idea. As a player, I'm not bitter about what Decius did. He made a role-playing choice that fits with his seemingly True Neutral character. I did as well. I should also note that Thod has not called out Phaeros in this, but rather Decius himself.

Bellows McGurk

Goblin Squad Member

Cheatle, while I'm not privy to all the communications and in no way speak for EL even though my main is in their company (I'm not involved in any decision-making on the part of EL, and in fact, I'm unaware of any settlements in this game that are in any way formally democratic other than the option to vote with your feet), it looks to me like you're making a massive assumption as to Thod's intentions. Unless you've got a Detect Good and Evil spell, there's a strong possibility that any attempts at requesting reparations for lost items were more an opportunity to apologize and make the guy whose stuff got rifled through feel a little better than it was an act of "extortion". That is a very serious charge, and you'd better be ready to provide evidence of it.

Packs come with names. You can /w those names and see if the person's coming back. If they come back and attack you while you're rifling through their backpack, you shouldn't be surprised, you're literally taking stuff with their name on it. When I found a pack in the woods, that's what I did. The owner didn't care, I looted it, found a single Neversleep Sap, offered the owner to give him one if I ever ran into him. Different people have different interpretations of the right thing to do, but that happens to be mine.

I'd say the most likely story here was there was a mixture of different ideas on the right thing to do, and a misunderstanding when it came to communication, among parties none of which had ill will. If anything, Thod gave the benefit of the doubt to his settlement member over an outsider. Sounds like something that most settlement leaders would do on a 50/50 split if you ask me.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:


Now, to discuss the matter of honor:
You Have What You Hold: Once it falls from your cold dead fingers, you don't hold it anymore; once you pick it back up again, you do. Trying to lay a claim to goods which you don't hold is in direct contravention of the River Freedoms.

Which is fine. The thing that concerns me throughout this thread is what I am hearing from various players is tales of you saying "you tried to help the victim until the victim (myself) started being a jerk." If this is some rumor you are trying to spread in roleplaying terms throughout your settlement and the world, that's fine. But it seems like you are spreading this out of play, and both you and I know exactly what happened - it's pretty simple. You found my corpse, looted it and bailed without saying a word.

When we talked later in whispers, you said you ran because you would have decimated me in combat and I'd just be dead again.

I'd like to keep things clear.

Which means Thod wasn't trying to extort anyone. He was simply asking for me to be made whole, and you refused. A valid choice. But lets not poison player's ears with OOC rhetoric.

Goblin Squad Member

Also, in an almost entirely unrelated note, Bellows McGurk has the best character name in the game.

Goblin Squad Member

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TEO Cheatle wrote:

Alright,

I have been informed of the situation and what happened. No one was bullied, as a matter of fact it sounds like Decius tried to help the guy until he turned into a Jerk and Decius walked away from the situation. So, I am just going to walk away from another Thod propaganda piece, good job in being neutral Thod, and trying to maintain that neutrality, it really really shows.

I truly appreciate you, Cheatle, for all the work you have done for PFO. It's fascinating to me, though, that you made a big deal in another post about "investigating," even citing one investigation over an incident that took more than a week, and yet in your investigations, you didn't speak to the other person involved in the interaction. I assume that by "being informed," you mean that you spoke to one person who was there - Decius - and formed your opinion from that single conversation. Since no one else was present when all of this went down other than Decius and myself, one would think you would reserve judgement until you had questioned both parties. And yet you are blasting Thod for simply trying to defend one of his own, something you, I assume, would do for any one of your TEO members.

Since there were only two players present, it becomes a "he said, he said" situation and you can naturally choose what you want to believe. But for what it's worth, Decius offered no help of any kind. He simply took stuff and ran. I am surprised he would say otherwise because he seemed pretty unashamed of the behavior.

I did call him out, using words like Thief, Coward, and others IN PLAY.

I would like to be careful about calling this "bullying." As the wizard behind the curtain of my character, I'm fine with Decius' actions as a player. He played the game. My character abhors what happened, as would any injured party. But that's where it stops - in game. Unless someone starts spreading rumors of what happened OOC that are untrue.

Goblin Squad Member

Capitalocracy wrote:
Also, in an almost entirely unrelated note, Bellows McGurk has the best character name in the game.

Thanks! You have yet to meet another of our EL members, Twomugg Aleslosh.

Goblin Squad Member

@Cloakwinter

Fair Enough, I didn't talk to you personally, I looked for your name here on the forums and couldn't find you. I then went and talked to several other people about the situation, the story is always going to be distorted, but no one was bullied, and you weren't attacked or stalked. I actually talked to a lot more people than just Decius.

The main reason I am blasting Thod is because he didn't give the situation enough time, and then forced the situation through extortion, nevermind what actually happened.

@Capital

I will be sending you a PM.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:


Actually I don't paint with broad strokes, and don't hold all citizens of a settlement responsible for the actions of a few. That might be how TSV does things, but not the UNC.

That hasn't been my experience reading your posts of the years regarding TSV and TEO. The action of not signing a contract in your view gave you right (in your mind) to interdict any and all of those belonging to the non signing group. I also remember remarks and insinuations you and other UNC comrades have made with regard to Nihimon and his kind as well.

Bluddwolf wrote:


I actually have a very cordial discourse with TEO (Cheatle and LifeDragn), and we have to my knowledge never had a real blow up, drag out argument. There are are were a few members of TSV I could say the same for.

Just because one talks politely does not mean their words are sweet.

Bluddwolf wrote:


As I said earlier, I don't speak for AGC, nor do I keep tabs on them or their actions. TSV may want to hold all in Aragon to be accountable for that, but I don't believe you, Nihimon or any other speaks for the whole of EBA either (perhaps LifeDragn or Cheatle does??).

When someone has the role of speaking for the EBA on a topic it is made a plain as day and that person speaks having had dialogue with all EBA settlement leadership. That clarified, I don't make a habit of speaking out of turn or stepping on the toes of those above me in position. At this time in hexes outside of the settlement hexes of Keeper's Pass and Brighthaven (as I obviously do not speak for them), and with no prior notification that individuals have been invited by members of EBA government, members of your settlement are considered hostile by TSV with no current objections from our EBA partners (they know our stance toward Aragon).

Should you want to change that posture I'm sure Nihimon and Decius will listen to what you propose (which doesn't mean they would agree to it, but I'm fairly sure they would listen to what you had to say).

Believe what you will.

Ride with outlaws...

Goblin Squad Member

V'rel Vusoryn wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:


Actually I don't paint with broad strokes, and don't hold all citizens of a settlement responsible for the actions of a few. That might be how TSV does things, but not the UNC.
That hasn't been my experience reading your posts of the years regarding TSV and TEO. The action of not signing a contract in your view gave you right (in your mind) to interdict any and all of those belonging to the non signing group. I also remember remarks and insinuations you and other UNC comrades have made with regard to Nihimon and his kind as well.

Well there was TEO under Andius...

Andius, post TEO....

TEO, post Andius....

Andius, in UNC..

Andius, out of UNC and on his own

PFO, Post Andius....

There is a lot of history, twists and turns in the relationship between TEO and the UNC.

The relations between Nihimon, Decious and I, Xeen, and a few others in my camp have few if any twists and turns. Pretty much a straight path of antagonism from both sides. Now I would not categorize this as hatred by any means, but certainly a bitter rivalry over the vision of the game and our roles within the community.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Cheatle wrote:

Alright,

I have been informed of the situation and what happened. No one was bullied, as a matter of fact it sounds like Decius tried to help the guy until he turned into a Jerk and Decius walked away from the situation. So, I am just going to walk away from another Thod propaganda piece, good job in being neutral Thod, and trying to maintain that neutrality, it really really shows.

I have to use this....

"Hey, I'm just helping you out, you would be over encumbered with all of this in your inventory."

Or how about this one?

"Hey, I'm doing you a favor in not killing you, and you should thank me for this."

Goblin Squad Member

Interestingly, the developers have told us little or nothing regarding this situation, plundering from those dead of misadventure.

If a character were to kill a monster, and another player were to steal from the kill, it would be stealing, and win the thief a Criminal flag. (eventually)

If a character kills another character, or a character is killed by a monster, though, it doesn't seem to cause either a Criminal flag or a Reputation loss, not according to the game mechanics. It might fall into the "not worth programming, not right now" category. If players think it should be a crime, or a Rep loss, they could raise the suggestion.

I personally wouldn't steal from such dead, but I'm a squishy freeholder, not interested in gaining excessive emnity. On the other hand, I recognize that there are no rules preventing my husk being looted, and I just plan to suck it up and drive on when that happens.

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