Goblin Squad Member
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Honoring the River Freedoms:
The UnNamed Company's View on the River Freedoms:
Source: The Six River Freedoms
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The Six River Freedoms
Frequently invoked—and occasionally trampled—the River Freedoms are the ideological backbone for common Riverfolk. Outsiders who expect to lead Riverfolk must quickly make themselves aware of the subtleties of the River Freedoms, as those who repeatedly f lout a beloved freedom find themselves deposed by a mob. Indeed, the River Freedoms find their most curious interpretations in the folkways of common Riverfolk. A quick-witted wag who quotes a freedom to justify her actions can sway hearts to accept the most egregious behavior, and a misinterpretation of words can get an honest paladin driven out with malice.
Philosophers and scholars who study the political landscapes of the River Kingdoms rank the River Freedoms in order from least to most grave—after all, no one seriously believes in unfettered freedom to speak at all times. However, slavery is as serious an offense here as in Andoran, and nothing is so sacred to Riverfolk as the freedom to keep what one holds.
Although the prologue implies loose interpretations and flexibilities, the UNC tends more towards a more strict interpretation.
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Say What You Will, I Live Free:
The freedom to speak is not the same as freedom from consequences of speech. Outsiders, drunkards, and fools are the only ones who vocally invoke this freedom. All others respect it, and live with it accordingly.
Still, criticism of government is more common here than in other lands. Cruel despots occasionally get an earful from their subjects, and the wise ones do not harshly punish such vocal rabble. In the River Kingdoms, subjects are earned by withstanding criticism rather than suppressing it. Pride sometimes intervenes, but a long-lasting lord is one who lets tongues wag.
This freedom is especially tantalizing for bards and anyone using charm magic. No one attempts to limit a spellcaster’s speech, and a silence spell is a suspicious abrogation of rights.
The UNC welcomes all speech, including the voices of descent. Within our own circle (UNC Forums) we can say anything, without limitations. On the Paizo Forums, we follow the rules as best we can.
In-game we will exercise free speech and receive free speech with one cautionary understanding:
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."
~Robert E. Howard
We are savages. You may exercise your free speech, but we may split your skull if we don't like what you say
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Oathbreakers Die:
The flip side of free speech in the River Kingdoms is the gravity of oath-breaking. Petty liars are common, but in a land where tomorrow can bring a gang of mercenaries, the people in charge must know whom they can trust. Common oaths include “I swear by the Sellen,” “May Hanspur take my sons,” and “My freedom is my bond.”
Riverfolk who undertake oaths of this nature keep them, or die trying. This attitude trickles down to business transactions, but can ironically make things more difficult— it’s hard to get a Riverfolk trader to fully commit to anything. Standard contracts contain a “Gyronna clause” which voids a contract in case of unforeseen calamity. This would seem a perfect dodge for scoundrels, but associating with Gyronna is the worst omen a Riverfolk trader can invoke. No one deals with a trader who admits affliction by Gyronna, lest the association rub off.
The UNC Oath preceding all interactions is as follows:
"On Coin, Blade and Pain of Blood"
Once we give this oath we will follow through on whatever interaction we have accepted. It loosely means, You are buying our blades and we will spill blood for you, sacrifice our own blood for you, until the terms of the agreement are met or breached.
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Walk Any Road, Float Any River:
This freedom implies no safety while traveling, especially from the local lord. It merely prevents lords from blocking land and water travel, or charging tolls for passing (except for non-Riverfolk). Of course, any ruler who doesn’t want people on his roads can bar them without erecting a single block—threats, bribes, political pressure, or hiring “bandits” are just as effective.
However, in practice, it means no lord can take his or her people for granted. Most Riverfolk do not leave their homes for anything but essential travel, no matter who is in charge (and poor Riverfolk usually have nowhere else to go), but they might still move to a new kingdom if their lord is abusive. This escape is rarely necessary. A lord who wants a functioning kingdom knows not to treat subjects too harshly, or the best ones will disappear, leaving a half-empty kingdom behind.
Quite simply, we are not Lords, but we are bandits. What the Freedom disallows a Lord, it grants him or her to hire us to do.
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Courts Are for Kings:
Buried midway down the list is one that undergirds them all: law within the River Kingdoms is malleable, and the rulers of a kingdom do as they wish. In their lands, one must obey. Whether a visitor is a commoner or a neighboring king, all are subject to a lord’s law within his own territory, and anyone who disobeys must be prepared for punishment or a declaration of war.
As a result, rulers seldom visit each other directly. Intermediaries do the talking, even when lords are scant miles away. When face-to-face negotiations occur, the monarchs often take great pains to protect their own sovereignty, even going so far as to set up camp tents on shared borders, talking across a rope line hung with pennants from both kingdoms. The major exception is the yearly Outlaw Council, where the meeting hall is considered politically neutral.
The UNC rules are not many, the oath being the primary. Our court is the open field of battle. Our punishment is the running of a gauntlet. (game details will possibly alter this).
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Slavery is an Abomination:
Nothing is so secure in the River Kingdoms as freedom for escaped saves. Unlike Andorens, Riverfolk won’t leave their homes to free slaves, but a runaway in the River Kingdoms is a slave no more.
Some estimates say that one-third of the Riverfolk alive today are escaped slaves or descendants of slaves. Riverfolk welcome thousands of escaped slaves to all kingdoms each year, to fill ranks in armies and agriculture. Escaped slaves are usually the fiercest proponents of the River Freedoms, as these conventions are the first taste of freedom in their new lives.
Because of this freedom, Hellknights of the Order of the Chain and other slave-takers cannot operate openly here, and any Andoren Eagle Knight can dispel most Riverfolk’s natural distrust of strangers by showing her insignia—and get a free drink and a barn to sleep in.
Depending on the local custom, this abolition can extend to indentured servitude. Spellcasters are warned to be circumspect when summoning monsters in the River Kingdoms, lest their magic be misinterpreted.
The UNC will only participate in the capture of NPC workers belonging to a settlement that we are currently at war with. Our intent is not necessarily to harm the enslaved, but to further damage the DI of our enemy. However if the coin associated with the slave trade is lucrative enough, our greed may over take our moral standing on the issue.
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You Have What You Hold:
In contrast to many other civilizations on Golarion, this freedom draws a moral distinction between robbery and mere stealing. Taking something by force is considered acceptable, even begrudgingly praiseworthy. Burglary, on the other hand, is punishable under common law. The difference is in allowing a victim the ability to resist, the opportunity to face his or her robber, and to plan for repossession if so desired. This allows for a rough honesty, letting Riverfolk know and face their enemies.
This freedom is the foundation of the UNC. We believe that if you want to keep what you have, you will have to fight for it. If you lose, it is rightfully ours. If you can take it back, it is then rightfully yours again.
* Note: Game Mechanics MAY alter some of these belief systems.
Although I wrote this breakdown back in 2013, it still holds closest to how we wish to play the game. So far, the most difficult parts of PFO in fully realizing this are: Awaiting Game Systems and the small Population.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would have to say that the way you are playing is still very apt, and hopefully with the added game systems and population it will still be viable.
I have to say it is a tough road, but not for the reasons it should. Banditry in my view is optimal as small squad PvP. As the future plans of PFO progress, the move is towards true warfare.
I know that this will rub some the wrong way, but it is truthful and a legitimate but unsavory play style (in most people's perspective)... Bandits don't look to prey upon standing armies. A better analogy is looking at pirates. Pirate captains in their sloops, don't look to fight the Royal Navy Ship-of-the-Line, they run away from them. Pirates are seeking under defended merchant ships, to prey upon the fat sheep of the economic machine.
We are not looking for fair fights, or for arranged PvP, we are looking for players like Thod's, foolishly hauling way too much valuables and all on their lonesome. What a freak'n score that was (/tips hat to DeciousBrutus).
To be quite honest, I don't think those willing to dedicate themselves to being "other people's content" should be tied to and tied down by a settlement mechanic. I'd be willing to accept a cap of level 15 for the freedom of being able to train outside of the settlement system. We can bank through the hideout system (if that ever comes to pass) or through the camp system (purchased or constructed).
We already realize the reputation system matters less as your levels get higher. Eventually max level characters will be able to function without any concern for reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We already realize the reputation system matters less as your levels get higher. Eventually max level characters will be able to function without any concern for reputation.
Not (if I understand the design intent correctly) if they fall below their settlement's reputation threshold for citizenship; but that area of the design is not terribly clear (to me).
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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As an outsider, it sounds like to me there are a lot of chefs in the EBA kitchen, but they all claim to be fry cooks, and none of them know what is on the menu.
And to think, I was criticized by one of your's for not knowing what members of different companies in my settlement are up to, but we are supposed to be free spirited, chaotic leaning individuals.
Is anyone capable of giving a straight answer, without immediately telling us not to accept what anyone says as an answer?
If no one speaks with any authority, than you have no authority. Since no organization can truly function that way, there has to be one person that is the "decider", there is always just one.
Anytime I say "Phaeros policy is that...", or a similar construction, It is a statement of policy. Any time I do not use such a construction, it is not safe to assume that I am stating policy.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Going to step in and use this example as I see a possible loophole that Thod may not.
So, according to your policies each settlement has to individually agree to this, and I've only seen Keepers Pass and Brighthaven agree to this. Does Phaeros, the actual settlement of the accused agree, and will they also not attack Thod or his people?
It is not currently the policy of Phaeros that Thod is KOS or otherwise prohibited from peaceful travel through our territory. I do not see that as likely to change because I belive that Thod will not violate our hospitality.
It IS the policy of Phaeros to defend all citizens and friends from attack, when possible, everywhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reading this thread, I've breathed several big sighs of relief that I'm taking a break from caring about the politics of this game. Apathy is much less stressful than whatever y'all are doing here.
No stress here... I'm having fun reading this.
The only thing I got that seems to be concrete (from this thread or the other) is that Cheatle is the President of the EBA, but nothing he says should be taken as policy unless it is preceded with a "This is the policy of..." No one else seems to be a credible authority to speak for anything but for themselves.
It is actually quite rare to see anyone admit that they are the leader of anything (company, settlement, kingdom)in the PFO community. I find that interesting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reading this thread, I've breathed several big sighs of relief that I'm taking a break from caring about the politics of this game. Apathy is much less stressful than whatever y'all are doing here.No stress here... I'm having fun reading this.
The only thing I got that seems to be concrete (from this thread or the other) is that Cheatle is the President of the EBA, but nothing he says should be taken as policy unless it is preceded with a "This is the policy of..." No one else seems to be a credible authority to speak for anything but for themselves.
It is actually quite rare to see anyone admit that they are the leader of anything (company, settlement, kingdom)in the PFO community. I find that interesting.
There you go reading what you wan to read instead of what is written again. It was said that Cheatle was like the president of the EBA COUNCIL, not President of the EBA. Big distinction there.
But, far be it from me to deter your spin. Please, spin on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reading this thread, I've breathed several big sighs of relief that I'm taking a break from caring about the politics of this game. Apathy is much less stressful than whatever y'all are doing here.No stress here... I'm having fun reading this.
The only thing I got that seems to be concrete (from this thread or the other) is that Cheatle is the President of the EBA, but nothing he says should be taken as policy unless it is preceded with a "This is the policy of..." No one else seems to be a credible authority to speak for anything but for themselves.
It is actually quite rare to see anyone admit that they are the leader of anything (company, settlement, kingdom)in the PFO community. I find that interesting.
There you go reading what you wan to read instead of what is written again. It was said that Cheatle was like the president of the EBA COUNCIL, not President of the EBA. Big distinction there.
But, far be it from me to deter your spin. Please, spin on.
LOL, that took less than 5 minutes....
It is actually quite rare to see anyone admit that they are the leader of anything (company, settlement, kingdom)in the PFO community. I find that interesting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So did that...
Incidentally, you are quick to take the same stance when Aragon is talked about. Oh, you don't speak for any of the other companies in Aragon.
Your quote is absurd yet predictable. There are plenty of identified leaders at all of those levels with the exception of kingdom for obvious reasons.
Thanks, though, as anyone reading Avari's post and then reading yours here can see you are for what you are.
In less than 5 minutes.
Weighed
Measured
Found wanting
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm happy to acknowledge the leaders for Keepers of the Circle and Keeper's Pass as well as the role we play in the EBA, but that seems less appropriate for this thread. I'll post it in my Diplomats and Merchants thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So did that...
Incidentally, you are quick to take the same stance when Aragon is talked about. Oh, you don't speak for any of the other companies in Aragon.
Your quote is absurd yet predictable. There are plenty of identified leaders at all of those levels with the exception of kingdom for obvious reasons.
Thanks, though, as anyone reading Avari's post and then reading yours here can see you are for what you are.
In less than 5 minutes.
Weighed
Measured
Found wanting
I'm not the leader of Aragon, the Goodfellow is. I am the leader of the UnNamed Company.
Aragon is a place, a location, that is all. It is not an entity or social structure as Ryan claims settlements should be.
The UnNamed Company has evolved into a gaming community, not just dedicated to PFO, and as a matter of fact it has more membership outside of PFO.
"Weighed, Measured and Found Wanting".... What are you talking about?
"Man, you've come right out of a comic book!" ~ Lol, that was always a great line.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't spite Bludd for doing whatever he feels he has to do on the forums to keep his Unactive Company relevant. Misquotes, half truths and policy posts of biblical proportions, by all means, continue Blud. Better than having you leave the game.
I think it is more, PFO has lost relevance, rather than my gaming community. I'm hoping that the introduction of more systems we have been waiting for will change that for PFO's sake. We have a thriving TT community and there are other games on the horizon that will attract many of us to sign up for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems it is even more rare for someone to acknowledge that someone else is the leader of a company, settlement, kingdom or alliance.
I'm sorry you have such a hard time grasping the simple truth. The Seventh Veil doesn't have a single leader. The Everbloom Alliance doesn't have a single leader.
But here, just to throw you a bone, Decius Brutus is the leader of Phaeros (until such time as the game supports more complex arrangements).
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Goblin Squad Member
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...What are you talking about?
Nothing. In fact I'm probably through talking to you before my more cynical side takes over. Please do carry on with your insights and wisdom as to what the EBA is and isn't. The floor is yours.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" ~BB
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just to be perfectly clear, Cheatle doesn't need a title. You don't say "president Bronson", do you?
Charles Bronson?
Sorry, I don't watch much tv, not getting the reference.
Although Cheatle may not need a title, I'm sure you has one. COPT has titles, he is likely a Knight.
I do miss Andius, he had a bunch of titles!! But, no one has more titles than UNC's own Trajan.
I can only think of the caution against using titles in The Dirty Dozen (TM7 might be a stretch guess also) as far as Charles Bronson is concerned. I'd really recommend, to anyone who isn't familiar, checking out all of the amazing movies this actor has been in.
Sorry for the interruption. Carry on. I have some popcorn to pop anyway.
Edit - I hat this little zagg keyboard. GRRRR Hate, I mean.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can only think of the caution against using titles in The Dirty Dozen (TM7 might be a stretch guess also) as far as Charles Branson is concerned. I'd really recommend, to anyone who isn't familiar, checking out all of the amazing movies this actor has been in.
Sorry for the interruption. Carry on. I have some popcorn to pop anyway.
Charles Bronson was one of my favorite actors growing up. Almost all of his movies were great, except for maybe the Death Wish sequels.
His character was great in the Magnificent Seven, especially his backstory and how he took care of those young boys.
The Mechanic, Mr. Majestic, Telefon, and Love and Bullets were also good.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm sorry you have such a hard time grasping the simple truth. The Seventh Veil doesn't have a single leader.
Yep, they are supposedly 5 or 4, is that it ? By the company constitution. But actually 1 is missing "just because". Lol, I remember all the drama about that in the private sections.
"But we are supposed to have 1 more leader, it's your own rules !!!"
"Yeah, but we don't trust any of you, and we don't need an other one, so shut up."
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Goblin Squad Member
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For the record, the UNC has never produced a former, disgruntled member. I take pride in the fact that we have never burdened our members with excessive rules or made it unclear as to the focus or goals of our community.
We have also shown ourselves to be flexible enough to change from being primarily focused on PFO and having shifted towards multiple titles and platforms.
So flexible, in fact, that our members can join other guilds in other games, but still call UNC there home. The "UnNamed" has taken on a meaning, closer to what I originally intended but not in the same way I expected.
At the core of that we have honored our principles and goals of game play, born in PFO, but spreading out to many other venues.
Taking that transition back to the OP, "Honour in the River Kingdoms" for me means to be forthright with our intentions regardless of the perceived morality or immorality of them.
This is why I have chosen to play my DT as a completely different character, from Tyv Blodvaerd.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For the record, the UNC has never produced a former, disgruntled member.Why did Andius leave UNC? Granted, he was disgruntled when he recruited your company to follow him...
The only people that followed him were two members of TEO and one from TSV. I can see Andius still gets under your skin, which is kind of funny. Last I heard he was playing on one of his alt accounts, and had infiltrated another company.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless he has found his way into a position of authority, I find the usage of the term 'infiltrated' somewhat dubious. How many companies aren't taking all comers at this point?
Infiltrated is an appropriate term because what company would have taken him in if he used his character name of Andius?
Imagine the onslaught they would get from some of the forum community if they knowingly allowed him to join.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only people that followed him were two members of TEO and one from TSV. I can see Andius still gets under your skin, which is kind of funny. Last I heard he was playing on one of his alt accounts, and had infiltrated another company.
I suspected this was the case even though Andius was trying to make everyone believe he took a large group with him.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Any policy statements made by the EBA would be irrelevant to the current situation, because the EBA does not have the authority to make policies which are binding to individual Phaerites.
Sorry; I said something here radically different from what I meant. I meant to reiterate that Phaeros does not make demands of citizens, and that no delegated authority of Phaeros can make affirmative demands of her citizens. To clarify, within those limits, EBA polices are as binding on Phaerites as the polices of Phaeros are.
Citizens of Phaeros who consistently act against the values of Phaeros and TSV will find themselvess no longer citizens of Phaeros.
Generally adhering to the friendly/enemy list of Phaeros is a neccesary part of adhering to the core values of Phaeros, specifically including not taking unprovoked attack actions against neutral parties.
Phaeros is a member of the Everbloom Alliance because the values that inform the EBA are largely the same as the values of Phaeros. Polices of the EBA are also policies of Phaeros, which have very limited ability to bind Phaerites to a course of action. For example, an EBA/Phaeros policy that purported to require any specific individual or individuals to train a specific craft skill to a specified level would be invalid, since it would violate the principle of individual freedom. However, a policy that simply described some groups of characters who were to be considered hostile and some others that were to be considered neutral would be in a sense binding; while no particular Phaerite would be required to log on to attack a particular hostile at a particular time, nor to escort a particular neutral party at a particular time, providing intentional aid to enemies or intentional harm to neutrals runs counter to the ideals of positive gameplay and is in a very real sense prohibited of Phaerites.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be quite honest, I don't think those willing to dedicate themselves to being "other people's content" should be tied to and tied down by a settlement mechanic. I'd be willing to accept a cap of level 15 for the freedom of being able to train outside of the settlement system.
I have no objections to this providing it is not given completely for free.
As an example:
A non-settlement company aligned to a faction like the Hellknights that is able to get training to level 15 at Fort Inevitable by maintaining standing at a certain non-trivial level would be fine.
I would however object to people being able to just train anywhere for no effort just because "we are bandits and we want it".
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be quite honest, I don't think those willing to dedicate themselves to being "other people's content" should be tied to and tied down by a settlement mechanic. I'd be willing to accept a cap of level 15 for the freedom of being able to train outside of the settlement system.
I have no objections to this providing it is not given completely for free.
As an example:
A non-settlement company aligned to a faction like the Hellknights that is able to get training to level 15 at Fort Inevitable by maintaining standing at a certain non-trivial level would be fine.
I would however object to people being able to just train anywhere for no effort just because "we are bandits and we want it".
I'm assuming that certain bandit based features would be tied to achieving progressively higher levels of Bandits of Thornkeep faction standing.
The same would go fo Hellknights, Crusaders and Aspis Consortium.
However, even without that, the cost of being able to train to 15 without a connection to a settlement is the built in cost of the cap. Being "Capped" is not "Free", but it is a meaningful choice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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providing intentional aid to enemies or intentional harm to neutrals runs counter to the ideals of positive gameplay and is in a very real sense prohibited of Phaerites.
As a TN settlement I would assume that Phaeros will have some role players that put profits ahead of those ideals, and perhaps sells goods at inflated prices to the enemy.
That might violate your ideals for good citizenship, but not positive gameplay.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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providing intentional aid to enemies or intentional harm to neutrals runs counter to the ideals of positive gameplay and is in a very real sense prohibited of Phaerites.As a TN settlement I would assume that Phaeros will have some role players that put profits ahead of those ideals, and perhaps sells goods at inflated prices to the enemy.
That might violate your ideals for good citizenship, but not positive gameplay.
You are free to assume anything you want.
Say What You Will, We Live Free.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Capped at Level 15" is a lot better off than just looking at that number relative to 20 might seem: By my estimation* it includes proficiencies at rank 3 out of 3, attacks at rank 6 out of 6, armor feats to rank 10 out of 11, expendables to level 8, utilities to rank 4 out of 6(these seem the most-restricted, actually), hit points to 16 out of 20 (need specifically martial points anyways to train past 15 anyway) and power to 32 out of 40, reactives and defensives to rank 4, and class features to rank 8 out of 11.
(*There are relatively few feats that have a hard level requirement in the advancement tables, mostly the class features - I am approximating the others by using the measures of 87 role achievement points and/or attribute requirement of 20, based on those requirements in the features advancement tables.)
Honestly, I expect plenty of characters to effectively self-cap at ~15 because the advancement beyond that doesn't particularly give much benefit for the xp spent. It's not even clear yet how easily a settlement will be able to train past level 15, I suspect many settlements will not offer such training either, considering the cost/benefit.
So all things considered, 15 isn't much of a cap at all; but I guess Bluddwolf wasn't aware of all the implications when he made his suggestion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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providing intentional aid to enemies or intentional harm to neutrals runs counter to the ideals of positive gameplay and is in a very real sense prohibited of Phaerites.As a TN settlement I would assume that Phaeros will have some role players that put profits ahead of those ideals, and perhaps sells goods at inflated prices to the enemy.
That might violate your ideals for good citizenship, but not positive gameplay.
You are free to assume anything you want.
Say What You Will, We Live Free.
I'm not disputing that. You have presented yourself with an undetectable, and unpreventable ideal of positive gameplay, that is all I'm pointing out.
I already know that "your enemies" do a good amount of trade with many of the merchant / crafters in the South East.
If the overall population of this game increases, there will be even less control over such transactions.
The numbers race for "top populated guild" is making it easy for 3rd Alts or Second Account characters to join just about any company they wish to. As I said, Andius had or still has an account and was or still is in several different companies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Capped at Level 15" is a lot better off than just looking at that number relative to 20 might seem: By my estimation* it includes proficiencies at rank 3 out of 3, attacks at rank 6 out of 6, armor feats to rank 10 out of 11, expendables to level 8, utilities to rank 4 out of 6(these seem the most-restricted, actually), hit points to 16 out of 20 (need specifically martial points anyways to train past 15 anyway) and power to 32 out of 40, reactives and defensives to rank 4, and class features to rank 8 out of 11.
So all things considered, 15 isn't much of a cap at all; but I guess Bluddwolf wasn't aware of all the implications when he made his suggestion.
But in the totality of across the board limitations, it may in fact be a fair trade off. My use if 15 was somewhat of an arbitrary choice but I was thinking 75% is a good place to start the discussion.
Self Capping is not something that can be accounted for of considered to be honest. Some people will self cap certain features at level 1. While others are Completionists and must have max level in any feature they start. There will be players that will not stop until they are Rogue 20, Fighter 20, Cleric 20, Wizard 20 and a handful or more of sub classes.
