There is an image that is an overview of the Dewey Decimal System used to organize library books by themes such as "who am I?" "who made me?" "who lives next door?"
My lower bookshelf is FULLLLLLL of Pathfinder. If I could wave a "Magic Wand", I'd have those little stickers on the spines of all my books with the DDS numbers on the sticker so I know right where each and every book goes. What I hope to have is something where books like go together making it easier for me to browse them. The "Faiths of ___" and "Champions of ___" books, of course, would be adjacent to one another. Humans, Gnomes, PikaRaces of Golarion would be together with the Advanced Race Guide nearby.
I suppose I could use ISBN, but I am pretty sure ISBN has nothing at all to do with the theme of the books. What are some ideas on how to handle this? I'd really like to sort this thing out before I start work on my second shelf of Pathfinder.
Yeah, I do lookups on the book and it keeps coming back to DDC 793.93 (Adventure Game Book) *DUH!* Of course, because the books are for a game and not intended to be interpreted as "real". Same for Library of Congress Code.
So I suppose what is needed would be a "community generated" system... Pathfinder Decimal Classification? Hrm... I'd love ideas or to find out someone else has already worked on it.
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I have been a librarian (public library) for more than a decade.
I hate Dewey Decimal, for many reasons. I hate it with a passion. Number-based systems allow for fine differentiations between classifications, but they fail miserably when it comes to human readability.
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On my shelf, I'm organized as follows:
Core
APG
ARG
ACG
UE
UC
UM
MA
GMG
NPC Codex
Monster Codex
Bestiary 1, 2, 3, 4
I feel this ordering follows the ordering in the chapters of the Core Rulebook well, as well as the classic order of PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual from D&D.
After that, I have my Campaign Setting Books. First up is my hardcovers - ISWG and ISG. Then, I organize the rest like so - Equipment, Combat, Magic, NPCs, Monsters, and Environments.
Then I've got my Player Companions. Organized by: (Inner Sea Primer, Pathfinder Society Primer), Origins, Powers, Items, Alignment and Faith, Environments, Tactics.
Finally, I have my APs in order, with map folios placed at the beginning of each series; after this are the modules which are placed in chronological order released.
I hate Dewey Decimal, for many reasons. I hate it with a passion...
Oh, I understand that, and why libraries are trying to move to other classification systems. I'm just going crazy trying to manage mine. :) My hope is for a way I can put tiny stickers on mine to remind me where they go to keep them in a logical, consistent order.
On my shelf, I'm organized as follows:... I feel this ordering follows the ordering in the chapters of the Core Rulebook well, as well as the classic order of PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual from D&D.
I started off with something like that, but it quickly became a mess as I had to put things away in a hurry. Perhaps if pickin_grinnin can suggest a code, or ways to improve yours, we could cook something up?
On my shelf, I'm organized as follows:
Core
APG
ARG
ACG
UE
UC
UM
MA
GMG
NPC Codex
Monster Codex
Bestiary 1, 2, 3, 4I feel this ordering follows the ordering in the chapters of the Core Rulebook well, as well as the classic order of PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual from D&D.
After that, I have my Campaign Setting Books. First up is my hardcovers - ISWG and ISG. Then, I organize the rest like so - Equipment, Combat, Magic, NPCs, Monsters, and Environments.
Then I've got my Player Companions. Organized by: (Inner Sea Primer, Pathfinder Society Primer), Origins, Powers, Items, Alignment and Faith, Environments, Tactics.
Finally, I have my APs in order, with map folios placed at the beginning of each series; after this are the modules which are placed in chronological order released.
I have a very similar system, except that I sort modules by level, rather than release date, since that's usually how I'm trying to find them. And my Player Companions are more like: races, places, specialties (Alchemy Manual, Ranged Tactics Toolkit, etc.), faiths, other.
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The product numbers might be a good place to start. Each of our lines have their own prefix, the higher the number after the prefix the later the release. You should see the PZO number around where the barcode is on the product.
You would have to regroup them from there though to get things like "Faiths of []" together though. APs would be super easy to arrange like this however.
Personally, I use the APs to drive my bookshelf. Any campaign settings, companions, etc. that relate to an AP get put with that AP; otherwise they get put in product code order on the other side of the shelf.
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As a former library employee and the closest thing Paizo has to a librarian, let me say that this thread sets off all the OCD triggers. In a good way (I think?)
I have found that most book types, as the OP mentioned, self-sort when organized by product line and then alphabetically by title/numerically for numbered volumes. This puts all similarly titled groups—like "Blood of", "Champions of", "Faiths of", and "People of" player companions—together.
I know when I am looking for a particular book, I'm rarely looking for "that one player companion from 2012" so chronological sorting does me little good. Even for adventures, I generally know what book I'm looking for before going to the shelf, so they're organized to help me quickly find that one, rather than by groupings I'm not using as often (level, location, now-defunct numbering system, etc.)
Because of the ever growing number of Pathfinder titles, I've had to split the collection up on a number of shelves, as I imagine most people do. I keep all adventures together on one shelf, so that's all AP volumes, the RotR hardcover, all modules, and Emerald Spire. Another shelf has all the fiction (including collected comic book hardcovers), while a third shelf has all setting-neutral rulebooks. Still another shelf holds all campaign setting and player companion books.
I have prepared for but not yet undertaken a project to create spine-readable labels for the 32-page books that are currently difficult to find when shelved.
I could write just as much about how I organize my vast Pathfinder digital library for fast navigation both via directory trees and searching, but that wasn't the question. For physical books, you really can't go wrong with a product line/alphabetical title organization scheme.
I could write just as much about how I organize my vast Pathfinder digital library for fast navigation both via directory trees and searching, but that wasn't the question. For physical books, you really can't go wrong with a product line/alphabetical title organization scheme.
Mark, can you please write about how to organize your vast Pathfinder digital library for fast navigation?
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Okay, I'm going to keep posting!
It is possible to use the Dewey Decimal System for Pathfinder books, but you'd need to use the whole system within the set of Pathfinder products.
000 Generalities
• Here I'd put all the setting-neutral hardcovers, though I'm not sure exactly where. Perhaps under 003. They really don't fit anywhere else.
• Printed copies of the Compleat Encounters, the Alpha or Beta playtests, and other esoterica would go under 093, as they represent the Pathfinder equivalent of Incunabula.
100 Philosophy and Psychology
• Here we have books like "Faiths and Philosophies" (duh) and probably the "Champions" player companions, as those are about being a follower of a religion more than the religions themselves.
• Theoretical future books on alignments rather than deities would also go here. That's sort of what the "Champions" books are already, at least moreso than the "Faiths of" companions.
200 Religion
• "Inner Sea Gods", "Gods and Magic", "Faiths of" player companions, and other books explicitly about religion or deities go here.
• If we were to break Adventure Path volumes up into their constituent articles, the deity articles would be included here.
• Character sheets and character folios go under 126.
• The 130s seem like they will be filling up rather quickly soon, and can already hold "Occult Mysteries" and perhaps "Mystery Monsters Revisited"
300 Social Sciences
• Most of your "People of" books are going to go here, as they're Pathfinder anthropology.
• "Ships of the Inner Sea" would likely go here, likely under 359
• "Inner Sea Combat" would be under 355.
400 Language
• If we ever did an in-world dictionary of Aklo or Elven or Shadowtongue or whatever, this is where it'd go. I don't really think anything we've previously published really belongs here, though.
500 Natural Sciences and Mathematics
• In Golarion, magic is as much a science as alchemy, so I'd put things like "Inner Sea Magic" here, along with "Alchemist's Manual" substituting magic for physics and alchemy for chemistry, so 530s and 540s.
• the 520s seem a perfect place for "Distant Worlds"
• the 590s would need to be expanded beyond simple zoology, as the Pathfinder world contains more than animals. Rather, I think a different decimal for each creature type might be fitting, at least those that are naturally occurring. Here we find the "Revisited" books save perhaps for "Undead Revisited" and "Demons Revisited" as I feel like undead and outsiders really belong elsewhere.
600 Technology
• This seems the natural fit for books about items, like "Adventurer's Armory", "Magical Marketplace", and "Technology Guide"
700 The Arts
• We haven't really done much with the arts themselves, but I could see a book on temples or dungeons or other themed structures being included along with architecture in the 720s.
• Articles on in-world games, such as those in the 'Golden Goblin' article from Second Darkness go under 795.
800 Literature and Rhetoric
• Since we're looking at this from an in-world perspective, I'd include all novels and other works of fiction in here, as 814 or 818, depending if you considered them essays about their protagonist(s) or just general writing. They certainly wouldn't interpret them as fictional, however. A story about the fairy tales that inspired the harrow, though, would be placed under 813
• 'The Trials of Larazod' would certainly go under drama here.
• I imagine you could replace the various non-English languages in the existing system with Elven, Dwarves, etc. but they would be empty, as all our books are published in Common.
900 Geography and History
• Oh man, is this a full category!
• The 910s are going to hold all your world-wide geographical books, in which I'd include "The Inner Sea World Guide."
• Cities and nations in Avistan and Garund that have their own sourcebooks would go in 914 and 915, respectively, replacing Europe and Africa with their Golarion counterparts. Anything that is primarily a gazetteer belongs here.
• "Dragon Empires Gazetteer" and "Dragon Empires Primer" go under 915.
• Fiction could arguably go in the 920s if it were considered a biography of the characters within. I could certainly see Varian Jeggare considering novels in which he appears as biographies rather than, gasp, works of fiction.
• I would place adventures in the "history" sections of their respective regions, personally, as they most embody accounts of events similar to a history book recounting battles or the journey of a particular person through a trying time. I can't really see anywhere else these go.
• The 930s are going to hold "Lost" books, like "Lost Treasures", "Lost Cities", and "Lost Kingdoms"
• "Distant Worlds" could arguably go in 999 as well, but I like it in Astronomy as it currently is.
Ultimately, using the established Dewey Decimal System to categorize books within the set of Pathfinder books leaves out large topics that simply don't exist in the real world.
• Undead: Do they go under religion? The paranormal? Are they simply a different type of animal under zoology?
• Planes and Outsiders: Metaphysics? Geography? Zoology?
We have no analogues to these and other topics in our world or at least not in the DDS.
So there you have it.
You won. I have now wasted FAR TOO MUCH TIME doing this. Are you happy now?!
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I could write just as much about how I organize my vast Pathfinder digital library for fast navigation both via directory trees and searching, but that wasn't the question. For physical books, you really can't go wrong with a product line/alphabetical title organization scheme.Mark, can you please write about how to organize your vast Pathfinder digital library for fast navigation?
Maybe someday, but the above post will have to suffice for now.
The above post is a fantastic start, and I'll do the little stickers thing. I apologize for "wasting far too much time" on you, but perhaps this will save heaping gobs of time for others with the same question.
I know "Dewey Decimal" has problems, but the above is a very good start until someone else cooks up a plan more detailed and "obviously better" than Mark Moreland's post.
Thank you so very much!
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It was my pleasure, Romaq. Don't read too much into my last sentence there. I just had a realization as I was about to submit that how much "real" work I could have done in the same time. But a man needs to be able to let loose and nerd out about the taxonomy of books every once in a while, so thanks for the opportunity.
Please post the final DDS designations you give the volumes in your collection when you're done with 'em.
I would be glad to do that, but just getting the silly thing moving in a direction is a big help. And I would still welcome one of the other systems set out "as if Pathfinder were real". The advantage of the DDC is that it has been used for a long time and is well known. So is QWERTY. QWERTY was created just to slow people down typing, and of course that sucks! But it's what most everyone is using, so...
Thank you again, Mark Moreland, and I look forward to bumping into you at PaizoCon. Just look for the ferret wearing eyeglasses and a fedora. :)
Thinking on it, for my purpose and how I think about them (and because Beastiary I-IV) "critters are critters, outsiders and undead". 590's. Otherwise I'll have to remember something which is in the 590 Bestiary is also some OTHER location outside the 500 block.
I'll work with it and report back here, even snag a photo. The trick, in my mind, is some footlocker for books so I'd have it all with me at PaizoCon. I did have a wheeled duffle bag. My book-load broke it. :(
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For transportation, we keep all our hardcovers in magazine-size storage boxes. Something similar to this. I'm sure it would work for softcovers too.
One box fits 18 Hardcovers.
Core Rulebook
Advanced Player's Guide
Advanced Race Guide
Advanced Class Guide
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Magic
Ultimate Campaign
Ultimate Equipment
NPC Codex
Monster Codex
Bestiary
Bestiary 2
Bestiary 3
Bestiary 4
Mythic Adventures (should probably go after Ultimate Equipment, but we rarely use it)
Inner Sea World Guide
Inner Sea Gods
Gamemastery Guide
At home, I organize my Pathfinder books according to general type (ex. the "Ultimates"), then alphabetically within that. I put the types in order according to how often I use them. The Core Rulebook, "Ultimates," "Advanced Guides," etc. are to the left, while the few adventures I own are to the far right. Most things on the far right will get sold at some point.
In the libraries where I have worked (and the one I ran), we occasionally developed small sections that just weren't worth cataloging with Dewey. These include some types of thin paper children's books (the types that would fall apart quickly), "honor books" (the patrons could keep them or bring them back), and things that didn't last long (physically) like Harlequin romances. When we needed a rough organization system for them, we used colored dots. So, for example, in the "honor books" we used different colored dots to indicate the genre, and (in some cases) the subgenre. That made it easy to throw them on the shelves quickly and still give the patrons the ability to zoom in on the areas that interested them.
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I have found that most book types, as the OP mentioned, self-sort when organized by product line and then alphabetically by title/numerically for numbered volumes. This puts all similarly titled groups—like "Blood of", "Champions of", "Faiths of", and "People of" player companions—together.
This is exactly how I have my Pathfinder library organized.
I then have each of my PFS characters in their own manila folder, and the first sheet in the manila folder is a list of the sources used by that character. That way when I'm on my way to game, I have a quick pick list of what I need to bring.
The product numbers might be a good place to start.
Ok, I started with the PZO product numbers, since looking those up is a snap and I don't have to make up numbers, as such. I labeled 11 hardback books including Ultimate Combat and one soft-bound Inner Sea Combat just to be sure while I was very happy with the ease of "GIVE ME A NUMBER NOW", I hated how themes such as the Bestiaries and "* Combat" books were not grouped together. It makes me pucker thinking about trying to find anything. :(
I'll try again with Mark Moreland's order, except that "planes or not, critters are critters" in terms of how I think about things, then order them accordingly. For the moment I'm only doing the hardbacks because I have a spine I can see and enough hardbacks they make a great guide for when I go through the smaller books. The whole point of this exercise is, "I know I bought that freakin' Ranged Tactics Toolbox... where'd it go?"
Another approach, perhaps a better one for this purpose is to mirror the books after the CRB: Ch 2: Races, Ch 3: Classes, Ch 6: Equipment, Ch 8: Combat, Ch 9, Magic, Ch 12: Gamemastering, Ch 13: Environment, Ch 14: NPC's. 14M for Monster NPCs. That provides a rough thematic order that follows the structure of the CRB. When I start going into sub topics, I use the CRB for putting "Dungeons" before "Wilderness" and then "Planes". In "Ch 9: Magic", Arcane comes before Divine. I'm going to judge "Prestige Classes" are just a part of "Classes" for this purpose, so those are all together.
This way I don't have to Scientific Wild Arse Guess (SWAG) a DDC I can't possibly look up. I have the CRB for that, and the "number" starting with the relevant CRB chapters. CRB is 1st, because it is the most important!
AFTER the CRB, it has Appendix 3: Inspired Reading... looks like Pathfinder Tales in Author, Title apha ordering to me.
APs look like Ch 12 following the GameMastery Guide in AP year release order. For giggles, I can put in the theoretical year (4707 AR) for the AP.
I think that will do what I want to bring the kind of structure I am looking for without trying to pull DDC out of my backside and hating it.
Dewey Decimal is for libraries that are still in the Stone Age. Even Rutgers converted 30-40 years ago. Oraganising by Dewey Decimal is like going back to Windows 3!
I got that impression, and I even understand why.
What I need is "Search for Ultimate Combat", get a code back where a search for "Inner Sea Combat" gets a code that will file adjacent to the first search, and everything I search for comes back with a code that puts everything to some kind of theme.
The best I can come up with thus far: "Look in the CRB index. If I were to shove this book into the CRB, what chapter would it fall in? For multiple books, what section of the chapter?"
That does get me away from DDC and closer to a natural flow, at least "natural" in the context of the CRB. And I can make exceptions, such as "Prestige classes naturally follow classes in Ch3."
At least, I'll give this one a go to organize the hard backs, and once organized I think the soft covers will fall into line for the most part. I hope.
The other question I have is ... Why?
Paizo books as large as the collection is, isn't going to fill the smallest libraries any time soon.
It's filling *my* library, and rather than shove a book any ol' place, I want a logical place to put it so I can find things as I want them.
And we already have a sensible way of organising them. It's labeled in the subscription plans themselves..
I'm not on the subscription plan. I can't afford it, and it may offer books I am simply not interested in. I'm on the "I have money now, and my wife will let me buy it I hope" subscription plan.
The Hardcover Rule Books, from Core Rules, to Advance Class Guide.
Player's Aid books, Hard Cover Settings Guides, Regional books and so on.
That's happy, but I need a way to do a query such as "Inner Sea Combat" and get back some sort of code that puts that book just after "Ultimate Combat", so when I'm looking up "all combat stuff in my library" I can pull out both books at the same time, should I choose to do so. And when I go to put those books back, I want to know where they will always go so I know where they will always *be* when I go to fetch them again.
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I could write just as much about how I organize my vast Pathfinder digital library for fast navigation both via directory trees and searching, but that wasn't the question. For physical books, you really can't go wrong with a product line/alphabetical title organization scheme.Mark, can you please write about how to organize your vast Pathfinder digital library for fast navigation?
If he won't :)
in general my tree structure is (<> denoted optional classification)
root - publisher - <game system> - <product line> - <sub catagory> - <variant copies>
and the files are renamed to be "product name - product code.pdf" with the exception of APs which are suffixed by # for natural ordering.
so for example:
-root/
--paizo/
---Adventure Path/
----Carrion Crown/
-----0. Players Guide - PZO9000-8E.pdf
-----1. The Haunting of Harrowstone - PZ09043.pdf
...
-----By Chapter/
------1. The Haunting of Harrowstone - Pz09043.pdf/
------...
...
----Some Other AP/
---Campaign Setting/
...
----By Chapter/
.../
----Lite/
...
-----By Chapter/ (You could argue if Lite/By Chapter or By Chapter/Lite)
...
---Module/
---Pawns/
---Player Companion/
---Roleplaying Game/
----By Chapter/
----Lite/
-----By Chapter/
---Society/
----Seasons #...
---Wayfinder/
For my third party stuff a lot of the optional stuff falls away, but you get the drift.
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Physically, because my shelves are narrow, I have the Player Companions alphabetically on the same shelf as the APs, who are in numerical order.
The modules are in alpha order beside the campaign setting (also alpha order)
The hard covers I keep for quick reference on my GMing cart, I probably order them in some natural ordering once a month or so, but they always seem out of sorts. As long as the bestiaries are hanging out together I'm good. (needless brag, Geek Chic GMing Valet)
I aspire to have enough Paizo products to warrant a sorting on this scale. Right now, it's just 1/3 of one shelf.
Ain't easy bein' a poor graduate student.
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I could write just as much about how I organize my vast Pathfinder digital library for fast navigation both via directory trees and searching, but that wasn't the question. For physical books, you really can't go wrong with a product line/alphabetical title organization scheme.Mark, can you please write about how to organize your vast Pathfinder digital library for fast navigation?
Yes! I posted some screenshots of my directories on my tumblr, but I can also go into it as best I can here, too.
The primary goal for me with my digital asset organization is efficiency and thoroughness. As the keeper of canon, it's important for me to have easy access to a library that is both complete and navigable/searchable. I have a directory I keep on my Dropbox that syncs between my personal computer and my office computer, simply called Pathfinder. That's where all the magic happens.
In the Pathfinder folder are the following subfolders:
• Adventure Card Game
—Characters
—Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild
...Season 0 - Season of the Shackles
—Rise of the Runelords
—Skull & Shackles
• Adventure Paths
—Carrion Crown
—etc
• Bestiaries & Monster Ecologies
• Deities & Religion
• Fiction
—Comics
—Journals
—Novels
—Short Fiction
• Game Aids
• Geography & Locations
• Golarion General
• History
• Inhabitants and People
• KQ
• Maps
—GameMastery
—Interactive Maps
• Modules
—3.5
—PRPG
• Organizations
• Pathfinder Legends
—Rise of the Runelords
...1 Burnt Offerings
...etc
• Pathfinder Online
• Pathfinder Society
—Chronicle Sheets
—Guides
—Pregenerated Characters
—Quests
—Scenarios
...Ruins of Bonekeep
...Season 0
...etc
...Season 6 - Year of the Sky Key
...xxx Retired
• Pawns
• Planes & Planets
• RPG
—Beginner Box
—Playtests
• xxx_Misc
• xxx_To Sort
Because I'm generally looking for efficiency, I break everything up into the unit size I'm most likely to use it in. Thus, backmatter articles from the Adventure Path go are split up by articles and sorted by subject rather than as a whole book, but Campaign Setting books are generally organized by whole book (with the exception of some of the Revisited books, where each individual monster gets its own chapter, sorted by monster name in "Bestiaries & Monster Ecologies". In some cases I have shortcuts to a specific PDF in other folders, like aliases of the hardcover bestiaries in the "Bestiaries & Monster Ecologies" folder, with the actual files living in the "RPG" folder.
I put inside front/back covers, forewords, backmatter, and frontmatter files in the "xxx_Misc" folder. This keep the OGL/Ad pages, covers, and tables of contents out of the way when navigating the rest of the files, but maintains searchability of them since some inside covers (especially in the AP line) contain canon we don't want to lose.
The "xxx_To Sort" folder contains files I've recently downloaded or that have been updated since I last downloaded them. This keeps them searchable but lets me do all the organization of specific files in large chunks instead of several times a month.
I set up a shortcut to a specific set of search parameters, namely searching the contents of files and only searching within the root "Pathfinder" folder. This allows me to query the entire library of canon in one go with the minimum number of steps. Because I use a Mac both at home and at the office, I can put the entire directory in the dock for easy access, meaning I can do canon keyword/proper noun searches while working in Word, inCopy, or on the messageboards or wiki.
The system works primarily because everything is clearly labeled (so I know what I'm looking at when I get a screen or two worth of search results) and complete, so nothing slips through the cracks because it was beyond the scope of the search. Setting this up took a lot of time initially, but not it's a breeze to maintain, and since I can sync it between computers, it means I don't have to duplicate work or try to remember what computer I downloaded the errata'ed version of the APG onto.
Anyway, that's what I've got. Hope that helps!
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What I need is "Search for Ultimate Combat", get a code back where a search for "Inner Sea Combat" gets a code that will file adjacent to the first search, and everything I search for comes back with a code that puts everything to some kind of theme.
Even if you own every single Pathfinder publication, there's not really enough of them to need organization on this scale.
Do you have all your other books organized in some manner like this? If so, then why not use whatever organization method you use for those books for your Pathfinder books as well.
If not, then why especially do your Pathfinder books warrant such organization?
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Different people gain different benefits from a varied level of organization. Let's not question why or whether or not it's necessary for the OP to organize his library and instead help him find the system that works best for him. It's not up to anyone but him what that "best" is.
Thank you for your understanding, Mark Moreland. Still, to be clear at least for my own reference what I think I am trying to do and why, I will respond to Kthulhu.
Even if you own every single Pathfinder publication, there's not really enough of them to need organization on this scale.
When I wish to look up from the book a specific topic, I want to know where to look to find it in a regular place on the shelf. So by "need", that is what I "need": a way to quickly find material that I reference often as a GM for a campaign. And as I am the one interested in doing the work, I get to define my "need" and what I require to fulfill it.
Do you have all your other books organized in some manner like this?
I have my other bookshelf somewhat organized, but only in general category, and "like adjacent to like".
If so, then why not use whatever organization method you use for those books for your Pathfinder books as well.
If not, then why especially do your Pathfinder books warrant such organization?
1) My Pathfinder library is explicitly a reference library, and as a GM I do a *LOT* of referencing things. While I may look things up on the 'Net, I pull the dead-tree books to study and mull things over in depth. My other library does not get such use.
2) My very general "like goes with like" organization with my other library (webcomics of the same adjacent to webcomics in general adjacent to general fiction is fine for the way I use that library. An often used *reference* library? Not so much.
And so it is, since I am the one using the product (a bookshelf full of reference material), I get to determine what I need, and I get to determine how much work I am willing to put into it sufficient to meet what I require.
If someone has already done the work (as it appears Mark Moreland has), and is willing to share (which he did), so much the better. And if my effort at this helps someone else, I can live with that. :)