Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Have I reached that point where I've become jaded about buying tons of books that I can't use? I guess I have... there's no amount of homebrew, PFS (Core or Encore), or one shot that will result in a potential 20% use of all the Pathfinder stuff I now own.
Look, yes: I believe there should be a free for all Pathfinder campaign that allows all official Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and Pathfinder Campaign Setting content. I'd be ok if you limit the campaign to non-evil only for the sake of weeding out the undesirables, but at some point I'd also be ok if you create a side campaign that's for all evil PCs as well. If it's Pathfinder, it should be allowed. The world of Golarion has been set to "emerging guns" as a default, and so I'd be fine with such a campaign following that guideline. High tech stuff should be limited to Iron Gods campaign, so I'd be fine with a ban on that (unless a specific module starts with a few ray guns on the floor, each with enough charges in them to fire a dozen time... i.e. they fizzle to useless junk on module completion, etc.)
I completely understand that with the years, Pathfinder stuff has expanded to a level where it has put a load on campaign staff to keep tabs on. The solution is deregulation and simplicity: gold value caps should make sure nobody walks around with a golem or siege engines. I mean come on. Siege engines? miniaturized? you're aware some of them have a puny Ref save of 15 right? sigh...
So, I guess we've gone from "Pathfinder Society should do a 180 and allow all contents from all the books" to "Pathfinder Society should do a 90 and allow most contents from most of the books"?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So, I guess we've gone from "Pathfinder Society should do a 180 and allow all contents from all the books" to "Pathfinder Society should do a 90 and allow most contents from most of the books"?
No, see, the stuff he doesn't want simply doesn't count as "content", so the collection of stuff he would allow can still be called "all of the content". ;)
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So, I guess we've gone from "Pathfinder Society should do a 180 and allow all contents from all the books" to "Pathfinder Society should do a 90 and allow most contents from most of the books"?Have I reached that point where I've become jaded about buying tons of books that I can't use? I guess I have... there's no amount of homebrew, PFS (Core or Encore), or one shot that will result in a potential 20% use of all the Pathfinder stuff I now own.
Look, yes: I believe there should be a free for all Pathfinder campaign that allows all official Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and Pathfinder Campaign Setting content. I'd be ok if you limit the campaign to non-evil only for the sake of weeding out the undesirables, but at some point I'd also be ok if you create a side campaign that's for all evil PCs as well. If it's Pathfinder, it should be allowed. The world of Golarion has been set to "emerging guns" as a default, and so I'd be fine with such a campaign following that guideline. High tech stuff should be limited to Iron Gods campaign, so I'd be fine with a ban on that (unless a specific module starts with a few ray guns on the floor, each with enough charges in them to fire a dozen time... i.e. they fizzle to useless junk on module completion, etc.)
I completely understand that with the years, Pathfinder stuff has expanded to a level where it has put a load on campaign staff to keep tabs on. The solution is deregulation and simplicity: gold value caps should make sure nobody walks around with a golem or siege engines. I mean come on. Siege engines? miniaturized? you're aware some of them have a puny Ref save of 15 right? sigh...
Actually I think we're talking about 150 degree. I agree that certain limits on alignment and setting-specific guidelines on the level of tech available are not avoidable. Other than that yes, please simplify the darn process and stop trying to control everything. It really doesn't add to anyone's fun, really.
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Actually I think we're talking about 150 degree. I agree that certain limits on alignment and setting-specific guidelines on the level of tech available are not avoidable. Other than that yes, please simplify the darn process and stop trying to control everything. It really doesn't add to anyone's fun,...So, I guess we've gone from "Pathfinder Society should do a 180 and allow all contents from all the books" to "Pathfinder Society should do a 90 and allow most contents from most of the books"?Have I reached that point where I've become jaded about buying tons of books that I can't use? I guess I have... there's no amount of homebrew, PFS (Core or Encore), or one shot that will result in a potential 20% use of all the Pathfinder stuff I now own.
Look, yes: I believe there should be a free for all Pathfinder campaign that allows all official Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and Pathfinder Campaign Setting content. I'd be ok if you limit the campaign to non-evil only for the sake of weeding out the undesirables, but at some point I'd also be ok if you create a side campaign that's for all evil PCs as well. If it's Pathfinder, it should be allowed. The world of Golarion has been set to "emerging guns" as a default, and so I'd be fine with such a campaign following that guideline. High tech stuff should be limited to Iron Gods campaign, so I'd be fine with a ban on that (unless a specific module starts with a few ray guns on the floor, each with enough charges in them to fire a dozen time... i.e. they fizzle to useless junk on module completion, etc.)
I completely understand that with the years, Pathfinder stuff has expanded to a level where it has put a load on campaign staff to keep tabs on. The solution is deregulation and simplicity: gold value caps should make sure nobody walks around with a golem or siege engines. I mean come on. Siege engines? miniaturized? you're aware some of them have a puny Ref save of 15 right? sigh...
Can you please specificy what constitutes "everything" that I am controlling that you don't like? Perhaps that would be easier to address. As people have already stated, PFS opens more than *most* home games as it is.
What is it that is specifically banned that you would like to see opened as legal? Once that is known, I'm sure there are a handful of explanations that can be provided why those things simply don't work in an OP setting.
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Can you please specificy what constitutes "everything" that I am controlling that you don't like?
With all due respect, no. I'm not going to go into specifics. Just know that I've been trying to promote PFS in my own little corner of the world here for years, and that it's fallen mostly into deaf ears for some time now. The going was good back in Season 1, but somewhere along the way something went wrong. The onerous guidelines, additional resources, etc. have become a huge detractor for newbies and experienced players alike. I'm trying to make the case to simplify the process while allowing people to play whatever they want. That is my request. I understand that it would take one year or more to get there, assuming there's even willingness to make this happen, so I'm not going to hold my breath. But if you want my honest opinion, this is what has become problematic for the campaign... the factions... not so much. When I'm off work come Friday the last thing I want to do is to spend another hour figuring out certs and the whole accounting part of the campaign. I do it reluctantly still, but for most GMs out there, they've stopped bothering and refuse to organize PFS events, instead reverting to home campaigns. It's there for you to do whatever you wish with it, and for the minions to come and dissect into ridiculousness.
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Can you please specificy what constitutes "everything" that I am controlling that you don't like?With all due respect, no. I'm not going to go into specifics. Just know that I've been trying to promote PFS in my own little corner of the world here for years, and that it's fallen mostly into deaf ears for some time now. The going was good back in Season 1, but somewhere along the way something went wrong. The onerous guidelines, additional resources, etc. have become a huge detractor for newbies and experienced players alike. I'm trying to make the case to simplify the process while allowing people to play whatever they want. That is my request. I understand that it would take one year or more to get there, assuming there's even willingness to make this happen, so I'm not going to hold my breath. But if you want my honest opinion, this is what has become problematic for the campaign... the factions... not so much. When I'm off work come Friday the last thing I want to do is to spend another hour figuring out certs and the whole accounting part of the campaign. I do it reluctantly still, but for most GMs out there, they've stopped bothering and refuse to organize PFS events, instead reverting to home campaigns. It's there for you to do whatever you wish with it, and for the minions to come and dissect into ridiculousness.
Well, I guess I will exit this conversation then since I can't help provide further answers for you. On a side note, we did simplify the process. It's called the Core Mode for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The Core Mode has no onerous guidelines, very little additional resources that affect it, etc...
As for "most GMs out there" have stopped bothering and refuse to organize PFS, that's a bit of a stretch. Maybe in your region that is the case (it's actually not since we are about to add a second VC to that region due to popularity of PFS) but the numbers I get from IT show that we have 200-400 new players join each week. This week alone we've added more than 15 regional coordinators in five different countries and eight states and now have more than 430 VOs, compared to the original 13 a year into PFS and 280 or so this time last year. On average the campaign has continued to grow at a rate of approximately 13,500 new players each year.
As for reverting to home campaigns, that's fantastic! They get to play Pathfinder RPG in the manner they deem fit and aren't "handicapped" by the rules set forth for OP. Sounds like a win-win to me.
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So to clarify... we aren't talking Ioun stones mechanics anymore.
As to your PoV, you are not a fan of Core campaign (which is your prerogative), but you are lobbying for a 3rd campaign on the opposite end of the spectrum... that would be more liberally permissive?
that about right?
Also - to the best of my knowledge, Mike & the Campaign staff has always encouraged players to form home groups. That's not a negative result of PFS. *ninja'd by Mike*
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okay
so I went and got some pencils and paper and crunched the numbers
I think I have got a solution to all this
okay so hear me out on this
first
start by buying all the gaming products, 3rd party material and any and all paizo published material that you want
just do it, trust me it will make sense in a couple of minutes
2.
decide what style of game you like, both for what you want to use in it and what you do not want to use in it
D.
find some likeminded people who also want to play the game this way that is the way you want to play it
seventh
okay here is where things get weird - play the game with these people BUT DO NOT TELL MIKE BROCK OR JOHN COMPTON ABOUT IT
if my calculations are correct, this should allow you to play the game EXACTLY the way you and your gaming group want to play it...and as far as I can deduce, there is NOTHING MIKE BROCK CAN DO TO STOP YOU!!!!
yeaahhhhhhh take THAT, brock!
(can someone check my math plz because if I am wrong and Mike Brock does stop you then I do not want to be responsible for it)
EDIT: AGGGGHHHHH MIKE BROCK STOLE MY IDEA NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
2ND EDIT: okay so they were crayons and not pencils but STILL
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Well thank you Michael for being such a patient listener. I understand that from an OP perspective it may be hard to accommodate everyone. I'll stick to the "Encore" PFS mode for a while more I think, just keep in mind that some of us spend significant amount of $ on Paizo (darn shipping!) and perhaps ease up a bit more on what's allowed in future products (Scribe Scroll for wizards, yes? ;) )
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Well thank you Michael for being such a patient listener. I understand that from an OP perspective it may be hard to accommodate everyone. I'll stick to the "Encore" PFS mode for a while more I think, just keep in mind that some of us spend significant amount of $ on Paizo (darn shipping!) and perhaps ease up a bit more on what's allowed in future products (Scribe Scroll for wizards, yes? ;) )
Trust me, I'm aware of what subscribers spend. I converted my Dragon and Dungeon Magazines three year subscriptions into a charter superscriber spot before I was hired by Paizo. Part of the selling points to my wife and being able to accept the job was that I advised her how much money I would be saving on RPG books every month ;-)
We only limit things for op that simply aren't a good fit. To make sure it isn't just John and I imagining the poor fit, we have content review teams for every product released. These teams are made up of five VOs. Some products, such as Unchained, get multiple review teams (3 in the case of Unchained). John and I then take the report from the content review team, discuss the recommendations, and then I make a final decision what goes into Additional Resources. I understand that people want to use all of the options. I encourage it for home games. I allow almost everything in my home Giantslayer campaign. Unfortunately, not everything that is published fits well into a global organized play camipaign of 75000+ players.
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I understand that some people want to use all of the options.
Fixed that for you :-)
I know that Mike knows the following, I just though it was worth explicitly pointing out.
Many of us believe that Purple is exactly 100% wrong, that PFS has TOO MANY options, that far more should be disallowed.
Pleasing all of us is a literally impossible job. We want different and opposing things. Mike does an excellent job of trying to keep us all reasonably happy.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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FOLKS its simpel. PLEASE.
Core is like a club for naked people completly without clothes. You can enter if you do wear nothing. PERIOD.
If you want anything else, its like taking a shirt to the club. The chap at the entrance says. Sorry mate. The whole world allows clothes but we in the club want you naked. Even if you think that your shirt I LOVE NAKED PEOPLE is absolutly fitting for the club. It isn´t!
So either you take of ALL of your clothes and enjoy the clubs fabolous buffet, or you keep your shirt and go to the other part of the country club!
While I love your example, even if the buffet comment might be a bit to specific ^^, you know that you are talking about gamers.
You would pretty quickly get people trying to sneak in things in their mouths or other orifices, and of course people experimenting with latex suits painted to look like they are naked.
Once that doesn't work people will try for body paint, painted to look like a +2 chainmail ... ^^
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Pleasing all of us is a literally impossible job. We want different and opposing things. Mike does an excellent job of trying to keep us all reasonably happy.I want a pony.I WANT A PONY TOO! WHY DOES PIRATE ROB GET A PONY? IS IT BECAUSE HE'S A VENTURE OFFICER? THAT'S SO UNFAIR. I'LL BET HIS PONY IS A SYNTHESISIT SUMMONER TOO, RIGHT?
Well, once upon a time in PFS we had a Nightmare themed Synthesist called Lady Nocturne. Unfortunately she got hit with a feeblemind and we had no immediate way to resolve the condition.
I was playing Farak, the Most Powerful Mage in All Absalom, so I took Lady Nocturne as my mount and spent the rest of the adventure flying around on a "Nightmare" being extra awesome.
In other words you're right. I already have a pony and it is a Synthesist. :Þ
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Have I reached that point where I've become jaded about buying tons of books that I can't use? I guess I have... there's no amount of homebrew, PFS (Core or Encore), or one shot that will result in a potential 20% use of all the Pathfinder stuff I now own.
Look, yes: I believe there should be a free for all Pathfinder campaign that allows all official Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and Pathfinder Campaign Setting content. I'd be ok if you limit the campaign to non-evil only for the sake of weeding out the undesirables, but at some point I'd also be ok if you create a side campaign that's for all evil PCs as well. If it's Pathfinder, it should be allowed. The world of Golarion has been set to "emerging guns" as a default, and so I'd be fine with such a campaign following that guideline. High tech stuff should be limited to Iron Gods campaign, so I'd be fine with a ban on that (unless a specific module starts with a few ray guns on the floor, each with enough charges in them to fire a dozen time... i.e. they fizzle to useless junk on module completion, etc.)
I completely understand that with the years, Pathfinder stuff has expanded to a level where it has put a load on campaign staff to keep tabs on. The solution is deregulation and simplicity: gold value caps should make sure nobody walks around with a golem or siege engines. I mean come on. Siege engines? miniaturized? you're aware some of them have a puny Ref save of 15 right? sigh...
I still haven't figured out if you realize that the Standard campaign still exists, and you can still use all your books in the standard campaign per the AR document.
The Core campaign is an ADDITIONAL option for play. Nothing you currently have is invalidated if you don't play in the Core campaign.
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So, if there is an Ioun Stone that has a resonant power (Whether it is a reprinted Core or one from a Chronicle sheet), can we use that resonant power with our Wayfinder (which is from the Guide)?
That is a point I am confused with.
No. Not unless the resonant power is spelled out on a chronicle sheet, or later gets put into the Guide or some other CORE legal resource. Currently, the only place resonant powers are detailed are the Pathfinder Primer and a separate section of the Seeker of Secrets from the base descriptions of the ioun stones found there, and neither source is CORE.
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Then why get a Wayfinder?
Because they are the symbol of being a Pathfinder agent and are rewarded for successful completion of The Confirmation (though generally not a field commission)? Sometimes an item is more than just the numbers it represents.
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Then why get a Wayfinder? How can this be done in Herolab?
Because it's the badge of a Pathfinder. It can cast light at will (for those non-cantrip based classes. It helps you from getting lost. Outside of that, not sure...
And I'm not sure what you mean how can it be done in Herolab...it should be a legal purchase (Wayfinder) for Core characters as it appears in the Guide.
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Easiest way to solve most of these types of Core rules problems:
Pretend the non-Core sources don't exist. At all.
There are no Resonant Powers. If a chronicle lists one, treat it as a unique ioun stone with extra abilities that other ones don't get.
-j
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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I've followed your discussion back and forth with Mike Brock on the Core Campaign threads and I wanted to address some of the concerns you expressed.
First off, as Mike already discussed, every product that Paizo goes through a vetting process with a team of VOs. They present their findings to Mike and John, and as a whole we banter about it among the VOs, since corner-cases differ from region to region. Sometimes a mechanic that seems harmless in one area might be taken advantage of in another to to a perceived "system mastery." Due to that, content gets disallowed... after all it is far easier to include it after the fact than remove it after it has seen play (i.e. Aasimar and Synthesist Summoners!) Not all content is fit for Organized Play without sweeping changes. I, for one, have no problem with the Synthesist... but the Campaign doesn't limit the number of "dump scores" like I do in a home campaign; this led to people dumping ALL of their physical stats and using the Eidolon as for those physical scores, resulting in overpowered characters. In Organized Play, we strive for balance... which leads me to the purpose of Core Campaign.
Core Campaign (or Core Pure, as I prefer to call it) fells the three essential needs of PFS Organized Play.
1) The need for rules simplicity for Players: New players to this game can quickly be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of source books and options Paizo has produced and allows for PFS. This leads to intimidation, especially when seated as a first time player next to a veteran player who has that "system mastery" for using multiple sources. A new player might think PFS is just too expensive or difficult based on that ONE TIME... and never return. Core Campaign gives them a safe place to start, and allows for the transition into regular PFS at a pace they decide.
2) The need for rules simplicity for GMs: As a degree of rule mastery is expected of the GM even more than the player, that same level of intimidation is inherent in volunteering to run a PFS game. In the years I have served PFS, I have seen potentially good GMs back down because they felt they "didn't know the rules well enough." Core Campaign allows them the same comfort zone; they can run scenarios from any Season prior to a source being released and never have to worry about those mechanics until they decide they are ready. This build confidence in their abilities, and confident GMs volunteer more often.
3) The need for Replay: As much as I hate to admit it, more content for PFS is not going to come fast enough to support the growing community of players. Replay is the best option, and this was the easiest way to make that dividing line. If you've been in PFS long enough (and I know you have been!), you remember the disastrous implementation of Open Replay. It led to players "farming" scenarios, and frustrated GMs. Personally, I almost quit as a GM during that era; the amount off re-players that would say the equivalent of "We already know all of that... can we just skip ahead to the combat?" was astonishing. I am glad that particular loophole was closed!
As for your desire to use MORE content and STILL have it count as PFS credit, I advise looking into an AP. If you run the full AP, players can create characters outside of the normal limits off PFS and then apply those Chronicles to existing PFS characters within the level range. I've recently started running Wrath off the Righteous as a home game. My players have come up with some off the wall concepts, most of would NOT be PFS legal. When we finish a Book, I will give them Chronicles. At least two of my players don't even play PFS; I'm hoping the Chronicle will entice them to try it though. It might work well in your are to organize an AP instead of the usual Organized Play and try and draw some of those PFS naysayers into the fold.
Hopefully, you will find some advice that you can use. Regardless, I hope you now understand better what the Campaign leadership was aiming for when they introduced Core Campaign. Roll on!
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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It might not be a PFS home game, but the players would still be eligible to earn chronicles they can apply to a PFS character (hence Duiker's reference to "campaign mode").
You can't retroactively assign chronicles to adventure paths you completed in the past; I'm not sure if the AP needs to be sanctioned at the time you start playing through the relevant section, or whether it's OK as long it gets sanctioned before you complete that section.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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Everything you're saying here is dead-on and very well expressed, so I'm reluctant to ask a nitpicky question, but how are you giving out chronicle sheets when Wrath of the Righteous has not been sanctioned for PFS even in campaign mode? Do you mean you're giving them made up Chronicle sheets for use in your own campaigns?
When I originally announced I was planning to run an AP, I had hoped that Wrath of the Righteous would be sanctioned by the time everyone got their PCs ready to run, since I had decided to make this an "invitation only" game with the seats being awarded to the best unique character concepts. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened yet... and they were anxious to start. The choice was to continue with the Wrath of the Righteous AP or scrap that and start fresh with one that had been sanctioned. Since the Chronicles are the least important part of my goal, which is to entice people to play Pathfinder, I decided to forge ahead with the original plans... but if all goes well, I plan to use Shattered Star next since the Pathfinder Society plays a big part in that. That it IS sanctioned is just a bonus for me!
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It might not be a PFS home game, but the players would still be eligible to earn chronicles they can apply to a PFS character (hence Duiker's reference to "campaign mode").You can't retroactively assign chronicles to adventure paths you completed in the past; I'm not sure if the AP needs to be sanctioned at the time you start playing through the relevant section, or whether it's OK as long it gets sanctioned before you complete that section.
It depends on a couple of factors, which are usually summed up by a post from John Compton, saying something on the order of, "Okay, we have the chronicles almost done, so you can start running AP X for PFS credit now."
Of course, some APs are not going to be sanctioned for PFS at all, and Wraith of the Righteous is the poster child for that.
I admit to curiosity as to what the chronicles for Kingmaker, since it is so sandboxy, will look like, or if it gets decided that it cannot be reasonably sanctioned, as well.
I do not care about the ioun stones. What I DO care about, is Robert and grandpoobah' stories, and Lamontius and Jiggy's comments xD