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Okay, so this kind of thread you might expect from a noob, but I've been playing RPGs for over 15 years now, and I've been around the block, playing a lot of different stuff. But the one thing I've never really done is play a full on wizard before. And the reason is not why you may think.
It just doesn't seem fun to me.
I'm one of those wierdos in PFS that likes to make sure everyone at the table, including the GM is having fun. Do I forget that from time to time? Sure. Do I always succeed? Absolutely not, but it is a principle that I try to live by. As such I've always avoided wizards for this reason.
At low levels, they're no fun for me to play. I can't really hurt people, or do much productive. Unless I want to be super cheap and color spray/sleep people, in which case the GM doesn't get to have any fun.
At high levels, I get approach godlike with things like persistent disintegrate, or Dominate person with some unbeatable DC, and again, it's not fun for the GM.
So it seems that my options are "Low levels, I just cheap shot stuff or don't do anything," and at high levels I "Solo everything so the party doesn't get to do whatever." My third option is to turn myself into a buff-bot which is okay, I guess, but it seems just really . . . boring.
Don't get me wrong, I've played casters before, clerics and oracles and alchemists, but those guys, I can play them and feel important, and still let everyone else have fun. I can hop around the battlefield healing the fallen, cast most of the buff/debuff spells I need (remove curse, dispel magic, that sort of thing) and still let others do their thing.
I've come up with an idea for a PFS wizard, and the idea is solid, but when I think about how to build him and what spells to take and so on, I just. . . . I get second thoughts.
Comments? Concerns? Counter-arguments?
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It will vary based on the GM, but personally I have more fun when the encounter drops to a color spray or a sleep than I enjoy killing players.
Close fights where the party get through but it's hard fought and there is some cost (expendibles used, maybe a raise deadsdead bought at higher levels) but you need the party to stomp through some encoubters as contrast to make those moments shine. The ones that end up being close tend not be as easily ended by one spell.
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Blasting/buffing/battle field control/debuffing all work very well to make a cooperative wizard
And then do NOT hyperoptimize. Do NOT take dazing for your blaster, do NOT dip a level of sorcerer, etc.
At low levels, reliable ways to spam magic missile can make you quite useful (especially when you hold your action to disrupt the enemy spell caster).
Or, since you're not hyper optimizing, spend some resources on other ways to contribute. Take a couple of levels of empiricist investigator and be an insane skill monkey as well.
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I'm playing an 11th-level Diviner who doesn't do any damage himself in combat. He goes first (much invested in my +17 initiative), and lays down control to start off the encounter. Web was good at lower levels, and black tentacles works well at higher, except against powerful single targets.
For some reason, haste is gaining the overpowered condition on these forums, but I assure you, putting it up at the beginning of an encounter will make you popular, and it is only a single action to put up a buff that helps out the whole party.
Communal dark vision and communal resist energy make for a lot less work for others, and last a good amount of time for a single spell slot each.
As BNW said, taxi service can help tremendously, and dimension door does that very well, as does floating disk.
Out of combat, various spells can help with puzzles, or clear obstacles, or help find necessary plot points. I have purchased a wand of Kreighton's perusal and there are several scenarios where it is invaluable.
He's also quite the skill monkey, having all of the knowledge skills in the double-digits, and speaks a score of languages as well.
Hmmm. Melee combat: not so good...
The main point about Wizards, and from what I gather their claim to power, is their versatility. I don't know exactly how powerful my character seems to others, but he sure is popular when he makes everyone else shine.
And yes, I don't know anyone who doesn't appreciate telekinetic charge.
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Take a look at some of the different school abilities. You can also make more than your standard Blaster or Controller Wizard if you build right (Transmuters as buff/shapeshifting battlemages, for example). As someone already noted, Diviners make great support casters that help the rest of the party shine. Conjurers have great mobility and can bring in a pet to fight on their behalf in way that isn't nearly as complex/potentially gamebreaking as Summoner.
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Comments? Concerns? Counter-arguments?
Apprentice,
The schools are filled with 'niche' wizards, fools one and all. They believe the road to power lies in becoming 'The World's Greatest' something or other, but that is folly. Whether that be the most damaging of fireballs, the most potent of charm spells, or the ability to summon more creatures to do your bidding than anyone else, these achievements all take more effort than their benefits are worth.
Instead, let me emphasize a point to you that was drilled in to me when I was but a lad. That is, "Knowledge IS power." There is no greater knowledge than that of the future. Having the ability to see events before they fully unfold gives you the ability to weave a spell that will be the undoing of anything you do not wish done in the first place.
I will not lie to you. If you wish to harness the power of prescience, it will take much studying. Even more so if you wish to be as fully prepared for the future to unfold as you can be. Learn new spells to enhance your power as your ability reaches new levels, but not only then. Learn from other wizards as well. Copy spells from their books and from scrolls you find.
In this way, you will find that you will becomes a greatly desired parter for those who seek adventure. Not for your ability to destroy any enemy with a single damaging spell, but because you will have the ability to handle any and every situation you and your friends may find yourselves in. Control the field on which you do battle, and your friends will live and revel in their own glory as well as yours.
If you seek my advice in the coming days, speak to Master Zey. He can tell you where to find me.
- Animus Lucrim
The Eye of the Ten
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A good wizard possesses exceptional knowledge, and exceptional knowledge lets them make exceptional use of their singular versatility. While I myself am specialized in the areas of diplomacy and summoning, I never forget what it means to be a wizard. Many an adventure has begun with an excellent knowledge check or a Commune via my angelic familiar, allowing me to deviate from my normal path in an interesting fashion.
For example, in one adventure my research indicated the area we were set to visit was heavily populated by giants. Despite my general distaste for my banned school of Enchantment, I allocated two spell slots for dominate person. This allowed me to counterbalance our party's lack of a Fighter by simply swaying a powerful giant to our cause in a, shall we say, particularly direct fashion.
In other adventures, I had the good fortune to travel with a peculiarly-enthusiastic miniature dragon and his attendant witch. Assured of the fact that my spells would be unusually difficult to resist (something about that fellow glaring at our enemies stripped them mightily of their will power), I was able to use Magic Jar to once more gain a powerful body to our cause despite my lack of specialization in this interesting spell.
On a final note, I find that my wide array of arcane magic is perfectly suited to the trials of a Pathfinder agent even when not fully actualized. In other words, I often leave slots open in even my higher levels of spells, allowing me to overcome any unexpected obstacle not with an eve of preparation but a mere fifteen minutes (surprisingly easy to come by in the field when not actively engaged in a dispute with betentacled monstrosities).
If I were pressed, why, I could even see myself reducing this to a mere minute of preparation time. I hear that some wizards can even forgo their specialized schools of study in favor of astounding feats of innate magic, including the ability to re-prepare spells in as little as six seconds! I myself have picked up an unusual trick in the course of seeking to understand and catalogue many strange Golarion species.
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Okay, while looking and exploring my options, I came across the Elementalist wizard option, and it made me think.
But I don't understand something. Can I ONLY cast spells from the (rather limited) Elementalist wizard spell list, or can I cast spells from any wizard spell (with the caveat that it takes two slots to cast from the opposing elemetnal spell list) and the elementalist wizard spell list is only for bonus spells. If the former is true, that sounds terrible, because the elementalist wizard spell list is tiny. If the latter is true, then the Void Elementalist seems to add spells to his spell list that are already on his spell list . . .
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Vamp, it is just like picking a school to specialize in (such as enchantment or conjuration). Generally all of the spells are already on your list, you just get an extra slot each day of each level to use only for your school, and you need to use two slots to prepare a prohibited school. You still have access to all other wizard spells as well, you just can't prepare them in your extra spell slot.
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The elemental schools can be great, since they let you really hone in on what you want to do and what you don't care about. If I'm uninterested in blasting or summoning, banning the Fire elemental school is great because I retain the ability to use a bunch of other sweet Evocation and Conjuration spells and just select out the spells I'm uninterested in. If I don't care much about vision-based battlefield control, banning Water takes out much of those options without cutting into my ability to, say, drop people in pits.
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For PFS with the 12th level cap the upper end of your concern is lessened (not removed). I like the school powers granted and you can focus on them to build your character. As someone mentioned don't maximize your stats. This not only gives your opponents a chance to NOT be dropped in one shot, but also gives you chance to focus on something non-wizardy. Especially if you are willing to multi-class.
Transmuter might make a good archer or shape-changer.
Enchanters & necromancers will benefit from spring attack, so look at building a really deadly [dagger]. Or better yet, get a familiar that can safely enter combat.
An illusionist can make some visuals permanent, how high can you get your stealth?
Fire mage can burn things from a distance, add some volatile equipment to your pockets (or better yet, to your fire-resistant barbarian's pockets). Fire resistance on your list makes improved initiative much more appealing.
Lots of weapons have disarm, who better than the mirror-imaged grease casting guy to make this his schtick?
Versatility is important, so keep a few slots open.* 15 minutes to fill that slot makes the wizard really able to *ahem* pull a rabbit out of their hat. The bonded object enhances this ability (see dagger comment above). I also recommend taking one spell from a non-core source every time you level. You will be able to trade for the easy ones soon enough, and there are a decent set of scrolls in a lot of scenarios. (The suggestion to not max your Intelligence runs counter to this as high Int offers bonus spells. )
Finally, look at some caster prestige classes. The Golarian specific PrCs add a lot of flavor you can focus on even if you don't pursue the actual class. Shadowdancing wizard, why? Oh that's why. :)
Most of this applies to any class of course.
*open slots have backfired on me once, I will probably stop leaving open slots on my highest levels spells available. :P
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Why the wizard:
Fastest spell progression
Best spells
Spells tailored to the group/scenario
MOST spells in the game. I know this is supposed to go to the sorcerer, but between getting an extra spell level, your specialization spell (there's no reason to be a generalist), and possibly your bonded item spell you have more spells than the sorcerer and more importantly more higher level spells to do the really cool stuff.
At low levels, they're no fun for me to play. I can't really hurt people, or do much productive. Unless I want to be super cheap and color spray/sleep people, in which case the GM doesn't get to have any fun.
At high levels, I get approach godlike with things like persistent disintegrate, or Dominate person with some unbeatable DC, and again, it's not fun for the GM.
One option is to make a character who isn't too min-maxed. A wizard with an Intelligence of 17 is still powerful, but your DCs will be much less unbeatable. And you can use the extra stat points to make a more balanced, resilient character.
I'm currently playing a conjuration-focused sorcerer using spells like Grease and Glitterdust - spells that make things easier for the party without ending the battle instantly.
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I wouldn't agree that maximizing your intelligence is min-maxed. Spells are awesome and more intelligence doesn't just give you higher DCs, it gives you more spells. I'd take that over some extra carrying capacity or whatever else you're getting out of your extra build points any day.
Ironically a conjurer like you described has the least need of INT, but only when engaging in summoning monsters which is completely divorced from saving throws.
And even then, my summoning wizard who is not particularly min-maxed magic-wise still started with maximum INT because it lets him use more spells and be better in the areas he did not specialize. It also adds to Knowledges which are very very useful, more so than whatever your other attribute would've given you as a bonus to skills.
Why the wizard:
Fastest spell progression
Best spells
Spells tailored to the group/scenario
MOST spells in the game. I know this is supposed to go to the sorcerer, but between getting an extra spell level, your specialization spell (there's no reason to be a generalist), and possibly your bonded item spell you have more spells than the sorcerer and more importantly more higher level spells to do the really cool stuff.
I think you're missing the poster's point. Everything you just listed involves becoming more "powerful" rather than spreading the fun around to the group. I agree with the the poster. Gets lame with wizards if player doesn't put some brakes on the power progression for sake of cooperative play.
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I think you're missing the poster's point. Everything you just listed involves becoming more "powerful" rather than spreading the fun around to the group. I agree with the the poster. Gets lame with wizards if player doesn't put some brakes on the power progression for sake of cooperative play.
Everything there allows you to do more and better of whatever it is that you want to do.
Enlarge person vanish, floating disk taxi service
Glitterdust, invisibility, see invis, the Stat boosters
fly, Haste, heroism tongues, fly (melee are understandably reluctant to shell out 750 gp per fight just to reach their opponents)
Telekenetic charge
More of those will make the rest of the party better at what they do.
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I’m generally known as wizard player in my PFS area and I love playing this class. I have 3 different wizards:
Conjuration wizard(teleportation): This is my mobile wizard with wide array of spells, including favored spell Slow. Playing with this character on early levels was all about buying that Magic Missile wand and saving my spells for when those would make most impact. Some scenarios, I had more than half of my spells left unused due to being prepared for stuff that did not happen. Strategic color sprays, pits, Aqueous Orb and Haste allowed our party to Survive pulling practically whole Fangwood keep at one go by accident. One of the best fights I have had. Everyone was so pumped after that fight, it was insane.
Mid-levels this character started using Slow and Haste for party advantage as well as pits for battlefield control. On higher levels he proceeded using transmutation spells to disable individual high priority targets, giving some of his mobility to his team and Slow/Haste were still kings with right group combo.
This character is now retired at level 14 after completing Eyes of the Ten and one of the special scenarios. Most notable thing about this character has been is the fact, he has never died or been unconscious (not counting normal sleep) during his adventures.
Evocation wizard (admixture): Pretty much experiment on volatile wizard with enough oomph to solve situations with force when needed. Playing this one on low levels still started with getting that Wand of Magic Missiles as first thing and using my blasts selectively when those would do most good. Really came on its own on level 5, but was quite effective on low levels as well. This character was well optimized, but not to 100%. The important thing in group play is that you are not the one to solve everything, so keeping up other spells than blasts is needed as well. I remember one scenario where we were maybe halfway through it and one player said he would have to go in 15 minutes, and he would not have time to finish the game and only get partial chronicle. Up to that point I had not used much of my resources at all, so we decided to rush, which allowed me to let loose. I still made sure everyone else got to shine by using Haste on area where enemies were spread out. If you have optimized character make sure you do not own all the action, let others shine as well. This character is currently on level 8.
Diviner Wizard (foresight): I wanted to make a controller wizard for lower levels and save or suck one of the higher levels. In order to make the control or save/suck most effective I wanted to go first and win the initiative. Since I picked up Necromancy as my focus school, this wizard was the least effective at low levels, but very helpful with knowledge skills and gathering tools. Once again magic missile wand and selective use of spells was the key for lower levels. This wizard is now hitting the mid-level range and is really investigator type trying to learn about the world (backstory related). Very helpful character for the party at the moment. She is on level 6.
Other: When I build a wizard I try to balance offense with defense and always try to have some party friendly spells available. I do not normally pick up my spells until I know what party composition is and leave few slots open to modify based on information we manage gather before mission really begins. Sometimes you will end up guessing wrong and will have some not so useful spells, but for the most part having right spells selected makes the game run smooth. Always try to let others on the table have their moments. You do not have to solve every problem with magic.