no, fast learner is HP and Skill OR the Racial FCB. You can't mix and match those.
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First, as a Half-Orc, you shouldn't need to take Racial Heritage (Human). You already count as human for feats and whatnot.
As for Fast Learner, there's never been an official FAQ that I recall, but it's been explained that you get the skill point and the hit point or a FCB. It's not even a "choose two of three" thing. So getting two FCB is right out.
The feat does exactly what it says it does (grammatically). If you have this feat you can either choose +1 hit point and +1 skill rank, or you can choose the alternate class reward.
You do not get your choice of two of the three, but it does not preclude you from taking an alternate class reward if you choose to do that instead.
Normal: you choose 1 HP or 1 SP or 1 alternate bonus. Your parentheses are neither written or implied.
Normal: you choose 1 HP or 1 SP or 1 alternate bonus. Your parentheses are neither written or implied.
PRD/ARG/Favored Class Options: "Each of these replaces the normal reward for having a level in a favored class—either gaining 1 extra hit point or 1 extra skill rank each time a member of the race takes a level in that class."
It sure sounds like those parentheses are implied. The Favored Class Options are replacements for the normal rewards (1 extra hit point or 1 extra skill rank).
Your normal reward is the one hit point or the one skill point not the choice between the two.
Don't get me wrong. I'm fine with allowing the two alternate bonuses, I just think Kazaan is using faulty logic.
I'm not sure of the logic of the his total post, but on the 'normal' part you mentioned I agree with him. The APG section sure seems to read like it.
Gaining an alternate reward without substitution is an interesting read of the feat that I hadn't considered. I'll have to think on that.
So if my char was a half-orc and i took Racial Heritage , could i then take fast leaner , and trade both the hit point and skill point in for 2 different favored class bonuses ?
Racial Heritage
The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.Fast Learner
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.Sorcerer: Add +1/2 point of fire damage to spells that deal fire damage cast by the sorcerer.
Sorcerer: Choose acid, cold, electricity, or fire damage. Add +1/2 point of the chosen energy damage to spells that deal the chosen energy damage cast by the sorcerer.
Lol bro you a genius. It that we're the case I would play a rogue all the time. I'm thinking human slayer. Would I get 2 slayer talents every6 levels. OMG. I would be unstoppable. Or double the skill points on my animal companion for a early janni rush.
Please let this work. Double the favored class bonuses for everyone. I'm going to follow this post.
Your normal reward is the one hit point or the one skill point not the choice between the two.This isn't even a coherent statement. You're trying to say here that the normal reward, before APG introduced the alternate bonus, is not a choice between either HP or SP, but rather either +1 HP or +1 SP. And you accuse me of faulty logic? I can't even. Come back when you can contribute something constructive and coherent to the discussion.
Yes you make a choice. What you choose is the reward. The choice itself is not.
When you gain a level in a favored class,
-----you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank
----------instead of choosing either one or the other benefit
or
-----you can choose an alternate class reward.Does that make my interpretation a bit clearer, Kazaan? Please do show me how you see this, because I'm not actually sure how the "or" can be interpreted differently than something like this:
You have a choice between
a. gaining +1 hit point and +1 skill rank
or
b. choosing an alternate class reward
Soo you think this dose or dose not work? That the Charater gets to choose the FCB twice?
No, I believe it does not work, because the character has exactly two options from the Fast Learner feat when they gain a level:
1. Gain +1 hit point and +1 skill point, instead of choosing one of the two.
2. Choose a single alternate class reward.They have to pick between those two choices, at least according to the wording of the feat.
so choosing toughness is in all ways better than this feat?
Yes, unless you want the feats that have this feat as a prerequisite.
there is a feat in DSP psionics unleashed called open minded, that grants an additional skill point per level, as per the human ability, this feat is basically open minded for those that don't play with the psionics rules or want a 14 int human fighter with 7 skill points per level and 2 extra hit points per level for the price of 3 feats.
there is a feat in DSP psionics unleashed called open minded, that grants an additional skill point per level, as per the human ability, this feat is basically open minded for those that don't play with the psionics rules or want a 14 int human fighter with 7 skill points per level and 2 extra hit points per level for the price of 3 feats.
All you have to do is look at the feat Human Spirit to see how much Paizo overvalues skill points/bonuses. It's the equivalent to toughness for skill points but is limited to 1/2 elves AND you can only gain 4 skill points...
Taking that into account, the fast learner is an amazing value if you want/need skill points. A human fighter that uses all their 1st level feats (fast learner, nemesis and toughness) adds 2 skill points, 2 hp and an alternate favored bonus each level.
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Thankfully in our games we play PF without using Profession: Rules-lawyering.
No, I believe it does not work, because the character has exactly two options from the Fast Learner feat when they gain a level:
1. Gain +1 hit point and +1 skill point, instead of choosing one of the two.
2. Choose a single alternate class reward.They have to pick between those two choices, at least according to the wording of the feat.
so choosing toughness is in all ways better than this feat?
Toughness is better at level 1 and 2, then equal to this. However, if you are making a min/max tank build, you take this AND Toughness, no reason you can't have both.
spending a feat to have an extra skill point per level isn't super awesome, but there are worse feats.
No, I believe it does not work, because the character has exactly two options from the Fast Learner feat when they gain a level:
1. Gain +1 hit point and +1 skill point, instead of choosing one of the two.
2. Choose a single alternate class reward.They have to pick between those two choices, at least according to the wording of the feat.
Without the feat, you can choose either +1 skill point, +1 hit point, or your racial class reward option from APG.
Why would the feat give you a choice (option 2 in your example) that you already have without the feat? I think it may not be written very well, but the intent definitely seems to be instead of choosing 1 out of the 3 choices, you choose 2 out of the 3 choices.
1. Gain +1 skill point and +1 hit point
2. Gain +1 skill point and racial class reward
3. Gain +1 hit point and racial class reward
It could also be that the "racial" class reward is instead of skill point or hit point according to the APG (which would make your option 1 = my options 1 through 3 since you would be substituting your hit point or skill point for the racial class reward), and "alternate class reward" is a class reward that doesn't match your race. In which case it would be your option 1 (which equals my option 1 - 3) and then your option 2 being only choosing 1 class reward which doesn't match your race (and not getting the hit point or skill point).
TL:DR
Normal = +1 skill point, +1 hit point, or racial class reward
With Fast Learner = 2 out of those 3 choices OR 1 class reward that doesn't match your race.
Every developer post that's commented on this has said that you get (+1 skill point and +1 hit point) or (racial class bonus).
Granted there has been no official FAQ or errata so you can still argue it, but the intent seems pretty clear.
That would mean that all the racial class bonuses are for humans only (and 1/2 orcs and 1/2 elves that are also "human"). Since you HAVE to be human to take Fast Learner and you HAVE to take Fast Learner to get the racial class bonus.
This is counter to what the APG says under Favored Class Options.
Instead of receiving an additional skill rank or hit point whenever they gain a level in a favored class, [race] have the option of choosing from a number of other bonuses, depending upon their favored class. The following options are available to all [race] who have the listed favored class, and unless otherwise stated, the bonus applies each time you select the listed favored class reward.
If it was intended to be Human only, and then only when a feat is taken, they probably wouldn't have gone through the trouble to create them for all the races and put them in the different race sections of the book and would have listed them in the Feat description instead.
or you can just take the racial one, in which case the feat does nothing.
Feats don't "do nothing". When a feat gives you the choice of two things, neither of the choices are the "normal, without feat" option.
Dodge doesn't say "When you choose this feat select one option, you can gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC, or you can apply your DEX to AC" (something that everyone can already do without a feat).
Even Finesse says "You may use your DEX when making attacks with light weapons". Implying that you don't have to, you can use STR like everyone else that doesn't have the feat if you want. It doesn't say "When you select this feat, choose either DEX or STR when attacking with a light weapon." Because then if forces you to make a choice between something that changes how things normally work, or to do absolutely nothing. And like I said, feats don't make you choose something that you can already choose without the feat.
If they had intended Fast Learner to be the same they would have worded it the same. "When you choose a level in your favored class, you may gain a hit point and skill point instead of the normal favored class benefit." Implying that you can either choose HP+SP or just HP, or just SP, or Favored Class bonus (since the last 3 options are available to anyone without the feat).
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What possible balance reason could there be to insist that it only grant you +1 HP and +1 SP and specifically call out that, if you bypass that option, you get only your alternate bonus and nothing more?
It has nothing to do with balance. That's what it says it does so that's what it does. It's as simple as that.
and asimars with the Scion of Humanity racial abilityEvery developer post that's commented on this has said that you get (+1 skill point and +1 hit point) or (racial class bonus).
Granted there has been no official FAQ or errata so you can still argue it, but the intent seems pretty clear.That would mean that all the racial class bonuses are for humans only (and 1/2 orcs and 1/2 elves that are also "human"). Since you HAVE to be human to take Fast Learner and you HAVE to take Fast Learner to get the racial class bonus.
This is counter to what the APG says under Favored Class Options.
Instead of receiving an additional skill rank or hit point whenever they gain a level in a favored class, [race] have the option of choosing from a number of other bonuses, depending upon their favored class. The following options are available to all [race] who have the listed favored class, and unless otherwise stated, the bonus applies each time you select the listed favored class reward.If it was intended to be Human only, and then only when a feat is taken, they probably wouldn't have gone through the trouble to create them for all the races and put them in the different race sections of the book and would have listed them in the Feat description instead.
And gillman with throwback. And a human with Distant Heritages can get just about any races FCB.
a lot of those alternate favored class bonuses are more powerful than their cost in hit points, skill points, or combination of both. 6 hit points for a feat or 1 hit point for a spell known are a real steal.
a lot of those alternate favored class bonuses are more powerful than their cost in hit points, skill points, or combination of both. 6 hit points for a feat or 1 hit point for a spell known are a real steal.
But you can get 1/6th of a feat or the spell known without spending a feat in the first place. Feats aren't little things. You only get so many of them. They mean something. So how can it be "intended" for a feat to give you something that you could have gotten without the feat?
Player 1: I am now 6th level and because I took Fast Learner and you didn't I get a new feat this level (1/6th of a feat per level)!
Player 2: I get a new feat this level too because I've been taking 1/6th of a feat per level just like you. I'm just 1 feat ahead of you because I didn't take Fast Learner.
Doesn't make sense.
Sooo this dose work? Come on people. Where are my rules lawyers.
When a sentence in the Pathfinder rules says "You gain x or you gain y," you must choose between "x" and "y."
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.
Two options:
a. You gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit.
or
b. You can choose an alternate class reward.The feat does what it says it does. Nothing more, nothing less.
I love you.
a lot of those alternate favored class bonuses are more powerful than their cost in hit points, skill points, or combination of both. 6 hit points for a feat or 1 hit point for a spell known are a real steal.But you can get 1/6th of a feat or the spell known without spending a feat in the first place. Feats aren't little things. You only get so many of them. They mean something. So how can it be "intended" for a feat to give you something that you could have gotten without the feat?
Player 1: I am now 6th level and because I took Fast Learner and you didn't I get a new feat this level (1/6th of a feat per level)!
Player 2: I get a new feat this level too because I've been taking 1/6th of a feat per level just like you. I'm just 1 feat ahead of you because I didn't take Fast Learner.Doesn't make sense.
the guy who gained 1/6 of a feat is better off not taking fast learner, unlike the guy who took fast learner to have more hit points and skill points than the guy who took 1/6 of a feat
so player who took fast learner, i will call Rod, he gained 6 skill points and 6 skill points over 6 levels, player who spent 6 levels to gain a feat, but didn't take fast learner, i will call Todd. Rod has assuming otherwise identical builds, 6 more hit points and 6 more skill points than Todd. but Todd has 2 more feats than Rod to spend on things outside his role. essentially, Rod has higher base numbers while Todd has more tricks.
a lot of those alternate favored class bonuses are more powerful than their cost in hit points, skill points, or combination of both. 6 hit points for a feat or 1 hit point for a spell known are a real steal.But you can get 1/6th of a feat or the spell known without spending a feat in the first place. Feats aren't little things. You only get so many of them. They mean something. So how can it be "intended" for a feat to give you something that you could have gotten without the feat?
Player 1: I am now 6th level and because I took Fast Learner and you didn't I get a new feat this level (1/6th of a feat per level)!
Player 2: I get a new feat this level too because I've been taking 1/6th of a feat per level just like you. I'm just 1 feat ahead of you because I didn't take Fast Learner.Doesn't make sense.
the guy who gained 1/6 of a feat is better off not taking fast learner, unlike the guy who took fast learner to have more hit points and skill points than the guy who took 1/6 of a feat
so player who took fast learner, i will call Rod, he gained 6 skill points and 6 skill points over 6 levels, player who spent 6 levels to gain a feat, but didn't take fast learner, i will call Todd. Rod has assuming otherwise identical builds, 6 more hit points and 6 more skill points than Todd. but Todd has 2 more feats than Rod to spend on things outside his role. essentially, Rod has higher base numbers while Todd has more tricks.
Dat level 12 doh.
Dat level 12 doh.a lot of those alternate favored class bonuses are more powerful than their cost in hit points, skill points, or combination of both. 6 hit points for a feat or 1 hit point for a spell known are a real steal.But you can get 1/6th of a feat or the spell known without spending a feat in the first place. Feats aren't little things. You only get so many of them. They mean something. So how can it be "intended" for a feat to give you something that you could have gotten without the feat?
Player 1: I am now 6th level and because I took Fast Learner and you didn't I get a new feat this level (1/6th of a feat per level)!
Player 2: I get a new feat this level too because I've been taking 1/6th of a feat per level just like you. I'm just 1 feat ahead of you because I didn't take Fast Learner.Doesn't make sense.
the guy who gained 1/6 of a feat is better off not taking fast learner, unlike the guy who took fast learner to have more hit points and skill points than the guy who took 1/6 of a feat
so player who took fast learner, i will call Rod, he gained 6 skill points and 6 skill points over 6 levels, player who spent 6 levels to gain a feat, but didn't take fast learner, i will call Todd. Rod has assuming otherwise identical builds, 6 more hit points and 6 more skill points than Todd. but Todd has 2 more feats than Rod to spend on things outside his role. essentially, Rod has higher base numbers while Todd has more tricks.
level 12, Rod has 12 additional hit points, and 12 additional skill points over Todd, Todd is 3 feats ahead of Rod.
level 12, Rod has 12 additional hit points, and 12 additional skill points over Todd, Todd is 3 feats ahead of Rod.Dat level 12 doh.a lot of those alternate favored class bonuses are more powerful than their cost in hit points, skill points, or combination of both. 6 hit points for a feat or 1 hit point for a spell known are a real steal.But you can get 1/6th of a feat or the spell known without spending a feat in the first place. Feats aren't little things. You only get so many of them. They mean something. So how can it be "intended" for a feat to give you something that you could have gotten without the feat?
Player 1: I am now 6th level and because I took Fast Learner and you didn't I get a new feat this level (1/6th of a feat per level)!
Player 2: I get a new feat this level too because I've been taking 1/6th of a feat per level just like you. I'm just 1 feat ahead of you because I didn't take Fast Learner.Doesn't make sense.
the guy who gained 1/6 of a feat is better off not taking fast learner, unlike the guy who took fast learner to have more hit points and skill points than the guy who took 1/6 of a feat
so player who took fast learner, i will call Rod, he gained 6 skill points and 6 skill points over 6 levels, player who spent 6 levels to gain a feat, but didn't take fast learner, i will call Todd. Rod has assuming otherwise identical builds, 6 more hit points and 6 more skill points than Todd. but Todd has 2 more feats than Rod to spend on things outside his role. essentially, Rod has higher base numbers while Todd has more tricks.
Good point. I just think the feat is better I can take all 12 of those hit points off with the feat I took. Or increase my AC so I don't get hit the possibilities are almost endless. You can even get a animal companion of a familiar that will heal you for those hit points and buff. Flanking buddy. I guess it's opinion I value the feats over skill and hit points.
the feats are definitely better, which is my point i intend to state against allowing the feat to grant both the HP and the extra feat per 6 levels.