How would I go about it. If you can walk me through the process instead of giving me the answer that would be awesome. My mind isn't all that great anymore.
Okay, give me a couple minutes…
I really appreciate this!
Using it's Polymorph ability I assume? I'd take a look at On Skin Chaning, a little handy guide to polymorph. Based on that it looks like you would apply a -8 str, -4 con, and a +4 dex to the dragon's stats (to make it count as medium, the assumption of the polymorph spell) and then from there add any additional modifiers from the spell; a +2 strength for instance if you are using it to act as Alter Self for instance.
That said, I'm not sure the source on the table used in the guide and I couldn't find it on my own just now, but I could have swore I saw it somewhere else... maybe someone else can correct or confirm.
From there you get rid of any special abilities that are linked to the dragon's physical form, such as nat attacks and fly speed, and Fog Vision, Dragon Senses, etc. You should keep all of your supernatural abilities though, meaning you can still breath weapon people in the face and walk on clouds.
Ok Thanks for the help. This will at least get me started. I want to create a recurring NPC for my group that is a Silver Dragon who has taken on the form of a human, and is gaining levels in monk.
An adult dragon has the following qualities:
• CR +8
• Size +3
• HD +10
• natural armor +15
• breath weapon x6
• Str +14
• Dex -4
• Con +8
• Int +6
• Wis +6
• Cha +6
True dragons also have the following:
• Dragon Senses
• Frightful Presence based on age and HD
• Spells, as per type and age
• Spell-Like Abilities, as per type and age, at caster level equal to Hit Dice
• Damage Reduction based on type and age, as well as magical weaponry
• Immunity to sleep and paralysis
• Spell Resistance equal to 11+CR based on type and age
Here's the base silver dragon:
CR 6; Size Small; HD 7d12
Speed 40 ft.
Natural Armor +6; Breath Weapon cone, 2d8 cold
Str 13, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14
Its new size will be Huge, which comes with its own adjustments and additions:
Speed add fly 200 ft. (poor)
Melee bite (2d8), 2 claws (2d6), 2 wings (1d8), tail slap (2d6)
Special Attacks breath weapon (50 ft. cone), crush (2d8)
Additionally, an adult silver dragon has its own unique spread of abilities:
• change shape 3/day
• cold subtype and acid immunity
• paralyzing breath
• cloudwalking
• detect evil, feather fall, and fog cloud usable at will at 7th caster level
• graceful flight
• fog vision
• sorcerer spells can be chosen from the cleric spell list
Adding that all together, we get this:
CR 14; XP 38,400
LG Huge dragon (cold)
Init +0; Senses dragon senses, fog vision; Perception +5
Aura frightful presence (180 ft., DC 23)
DEFENSE
AC 29, touch 8, flat-footed 29 (-2 size, +21 natural)
hp 212 (17d12+85); DR 5/magic
Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +15
Immune acid, cold, magic sleep effects, paralysis; SR 25
Weaknesses vulnerability to fire
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., fly 200 ft. (average); cloudwalking, graceful flight
Melee bite +23 (2d8+12), 2 claws +23 (2d6+8), 2 wings +18 (1d8+4), tail slap +18 (2d6+12)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (15 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks breath weapon (50 ft. cone, DC 23, 12d8 cold), crush (DC 23, 2d8+12)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 17th; concentration +22)
……at will—detect evil, feather fall, fog cloud
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 7th; concentration +12)
……3rd (5/day)—2 known
……2nd (7/day)—3 known
……1st (8/day)—5 known
……0 (at will)—7 known
STATISTICS
Str 27, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 20
Base Atk +17; CMB +27; CMD 37 (41 vs. trip)
Feats 9 feats
Skills 187 skill points (or 11 skills at 17 ranks); Racial Modifiers Acrobatics +4 jumping; Size Modifiers Fly -4, Stealth -8
Languages Draconic plus 5
Special Qualities change shape 3/day
You may note that my version has more hit points and 1 more first level spell per day than the one in the book. These are intentional corrections.
So, now that the dragon itself is (mostly) statted out (fill in the blanks for feats, skills, sorcerer spells, and languages), we come to its change shape ability, and run into some problems.
Now, the ability as listed in the overview for silver dragons says, "A silver dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form three times per day as if using polymorph."
This would presumably allow for the dragon to pose as an elf or old hermit, a long-standing trope.
However, the entry in the PRD Bestiary for the Adult Silver Dragon links to the Change Shape universal monster ability, which limits shapechanging to no more than "one size category smaller or larger than its original form." It goes on to say that "This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics)." So based on that, an adult silver dragon is incapable of transforming into a human! The closest they can get is changing into some form of Large humanoid, like an ogre or frost giant, and then using the Disguise skill to make it look like they're Medium sized.
But that's silly. So let's go with the first interpretation.
Polymorph, when used to take on a humanoid form, funtions as alter self. Alter self gives a small amount of special qualities based on the chosen form (of which the human has none), and a peculiar +2 size based bump to Strength. So bizarre.
Presumably, as the creature has assumed Medium size, they lose the -2 penalty to attacks and AC, as well as the +2 bonus to CMB and CMD. Presumably, they lose the ability to fly, bite, claw, wing buffet, tail slap, or crush in human form. It is up to the Gamemaster if they retain the ability to use their breath weapon; if so it would be appropriate to reduce its range to 30 ft. as per a Medium dragon.
As per the Dragon type, dragons capable of assuming humanoid form are proficient in simple weapons. I'll give this one a spear. Here's the list of changes:
AC 31, touch 10, flat-footed 31 (+21 natural)
Speed 30 ft.; cloudwalking
Melee spear +26/+21/+16/+11 (1d8+13/x3)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks breath weapon (30 ft. cone, DC 23, 12d8 cold)
Str 29
CMB +26; CMD 39
Skills the shape changed dragon loses both racial and size modifiers to skill checks in human form
I was reading up on the transmutation rules concerning the polymorph school.
it says
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
I copied and pasted this from the paizo prd?
I left in dragon senses and fog vision, though I see chaoseffect would remove them. As with the breath weapon, this is up to the gamemaster since technically it never says the creature loses anything. Pick whatever makes sense to you.
Back in 3.5 I believe you would adjust ability scores, but not in Pathfinder (other than the bump from alter self, of course).
Wow that is an awesome job
That is merely a reference to the modifiers based on size, Rogar. Larger creatures get more Strength and Constitution and less Dexterity. They also get a penalty to attacks, AC and Stealth skill checks, and a bonus to CMB, and sometimes a beter natural AC.
Tables for this can be found here, the Size Changes and the Size Bonuses and Penalties tables.
These modifiers are factored into every creature's stats.
Thanis Kartaleon, assuming that we ignore the problem dragons have in using Change Shape to become medium humanoids (which has been discussed in other threads) then we still have the following:
1) Dragons do not alter their ability scores when using Change Shape. So the Change Shape version of Alter Self does not grant a +2 Strength bonus.
So your Human dragon example should have 2 strength less than you gave it (based on the attack bonuses I believe you gave it a +2 strength boost from Alter Self).
This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics).
As a bonus, this also means they do not normalize their ability scores as per this rule:
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
(Note: I am not saying you did this, just pointing it out to others.)
2) They lose their form derived natural armor bonus when using polymorph effects as per the normal rules for polymorph effects.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
So the dragon wouldn't have its +21 Natural Armor bonus.
3) They would lose their breath weapon as per the same rule on CRB p212.
I did see your note about GM fiat on this, but it is pretty clear that this is a form derived ability.
Otherwise, looks great. :)
I always forget to check the Magic chapter. And it has such neat things!
I did note the change shape universal ability, but it also denies a Huge dragon from attaining human form. So we can either go with the universal monster entry and prevent the cool thing from occurring (a crime at my table), go with the rules listed in the dragon entry over the universal monster ability entry, or create a hybrid rule.
The Silver Dragon entry states "Change Shape (Su) A silver dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form three times per day as if using polymorph." If the intention was to go with the universal monster ability, it would simply have been referenced here instead.
My choice would be the second one (that is, to ignore the universal monster rule in favor of the silver dragon entry). This would mean that, rather than not adjusting scores at all, or a +2 Strength bonus, the dragon would actually lose 6 Strength and 4 Constitution, and gain 4 Dexterity. This makes sense to me.
Going by that polymorph entry in the Magic chapter - would the dragon also lose the cold subtype? I'm gonna go with that.
Also… it looks like your type actually changes while transformed? That would make sense, and be a lot less confusing to the local rangers.
Since GM fiat is specifically called out ("the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed")… I'm going to retain the damage reduction, spell resistance, spells and spell-like abilities. And for rule of cool I'm keeping cloudwalking and fog vision. Frightful presence? Not sure; probably not kept.
CR 14; XP 38,400
LG Medium humanoid
Init +2; Senses fog vision; Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+2 Dex)
hp 161 (17d12+51); DR 5/magic
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +15
Spell Resistance 25
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.; cloudwalking
Melee spear +23/+18/+13/+8 (1d8+7/x3)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 17th; concentration +22)
……at will—detect evil, feather fall, fog cloud
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 7th; concentration +12)
……3rd (5/day)—2 known
……2nd (7/day)—3 known
……1st (8/day)—5 known
……0 (at will)—7 known
STATISTICS
Str 21, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 20
Base Atk +17; CMB +22; CMD 34
Feats 9 feats
Skills 187 skill points (11 skills with 17 ranks)
Languages Draconic, 5 other languages
Special Qualities change shape
Thanis Kartaleon, as I said, it was debated before.
It is often considered that "any animal or humanoid form" trumps the Change Shape limitation on size and thus provides a "specific vs general" rules argument.
I agree that it does make more sense that the dragon loses the strength due to size normalization and then gets +2 Strength from Alter Self.
However, those are not the rules and this is the rules forum. As written the dragon still has the exact same ability scores.
Since this is the rules forum I suggest adding in the rules version in addition to your own. :)
Regarding Cold Subtype and your Type being changed: According to the Devs no, your type remains the same.
DR is /magic which is generally believed to be SU and not form related so yes, should keep that.
SR, spells and spell-like abilities are not form related so yes, it keeps those.
I could see Cloudwalking and maybe Fog Vision being kept.
Frightful Presence, would be a weird one. I would probably say it is form related just because a human is not going to elicit the same kind of reaction.
What would happen if the dragon, thus changed into a Medium creature, gets enlarged? Do we apply the size modifiers for Large again?
You cannot use size altering magic on a creature that has been polymorphed.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Huh... Looking through the polymorph subschool description, it says you apply the size modifier to everything but your stats. This is pretty wonky. You get a new form by physically changing into it... but if it's small or large doesn't matter. So you can become the most atrophied, weakest but quickest dragon around, or you can be the buffest, clumsiest pixie that ever frolicked.
Correct, you do not use the "regular" ability score/natural armor size modifiers.
If you are normally not small or medium size then you need to use the table in the polymorph magic section to 'normalize' your ability scores before applying polymorph effects. (Barring a special exception such as Change Shape.)
This was a reaction to the 3.5 uber-polymorph options. Polymorph was overpowered in 3.5.