Below is a set of house-rules that I have created, borrowed and mutated from several sources, and I would like your opinions on them, especially the magic item rules.
KILBOURNE'S PATHFINDER HOUSE-RULES
BASIC THINGS
Character Generation
- Characters will no longer be created on any sort of rolling or point-buy system. I find that rolling is too random; some characters bordering on the god-like with their stats, and others barely above the average housewife, and not even on par with the average adventurer. All characters will receive the same choice of statistic arrays. There are a choice of arrays, all at approximately the same point-buy value. These stat arrays, from most specialized to most generalized, are:
- 18, 18, 14, 8, 8, 8 (most specialized -- essentially a form of crippled-savantism)
- 18, 18, 12, 10, 8, 8
- 18, 18, 10, 10, 10, 8
- 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10
- 18, 16, 12, 12, 12, 8
- 18, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10
- 18, 14, 12, 12, 12, 12
- 16, 16, 16, 10, 10, 8
- 16, 16, 14, 12, 12, 8
- 16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10
- 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 12 (most generalized -- think of James Bond)
- Major NPC's will also be built on these rules. Bwahahahaha!
- High point-buys benefit everyone, but especially classes that have a great spread of useful statistics. Low point buys only punish or hinder some people, and those are mostly the non-magical classes. The reason that I've chosen higher point-buy arrays is that it doesn't penalize anyone.
- If you guys really, really, really want to, we can roll for stats. It'll be 5d6, dropping the two lowest dice. You get to gamble that you get awesome stats... but if you roll low, crappy stats, you have to keep them. You have been warned. I will say no more on this.
- Any class that is not an Intelligence-based caster, such as the Wizard or Witch, now has at least 4 + Int skill ranks per level, or more if they normally do so. No more dumping on the Fighter. Witches and Wizards are the only classes who have 2 basic skill ranks per level, adding their intelligence modifier as normal. Not having skills is lame-ass bullcrap, especially for adventurers. B@++*es love skills.
- There is an alternate system for skills and skill ranks, detailed below. If you want, we can play by the old rules, but mine are super awesome.
- At first level, all characters receive double their first hit die, plus their Constitution modifier. For example, a first level Cleric with a Constitution modifier of 2 (statistic of 14) would have 18 HP at first level ([d8 x2] + 2 Con modifier = 18). Characters from 2nd level and onward may roll for the chance of receiving high hit points, or take half of their hit die* plus their Constitution modifier. This choice is made at each level. This change will allow characters to have a better chance of surviving first few levels, while not having a massive health pool at higher levels.
- You now have something called a Damage Threshold; see new rules below. This replaces the optional massive damage rule. There is now a rule for injuries! Hooray!
- Saving Rolls: You may now choose your statistic (and relevant modifier) to assign to each save; either Constitution or Strength for Fortitude saves; either Wisdom or Charisma for your Will saves; either Dexterity or Intelligence for your Reflex saves. This choice, once made, cannot be changed. Unless, you know... reincarnation or massive ability drain or something like that. We can negotiate.
- Initiative may be determined by Dexterity, Wisdom, or Intelligence. If a character has a class feature that allows any combination of those modifiers, such as the Inquisitor's Cunning Initiative ability, then that character may use that new modifier twice to determine their initiative score (or a mix of two modifiers).
- This may be something that you didn't feel needs to be said, but I do want to be clear: Any player is allowed to play a character of any gender, as long as they do so sincerely and with regards to the feelings of their fellow players (basically, don't be a dick).
- At first level, all characters get any mundane arms and armor they wish, that suit their character class and/or build. This depletes their starting gold amount to a tenth of it's original amount (for example, a fighter would have his sword(s) and armor, and 17.5 gp, as they begin with 175 gp). They may also choose to have any mundane item they wish (and can carry). If a character is created at 2nd level or higher, they may choose any masterwork items they wish, and an amount of wondrous magical items determined by the GM.
- Character encumbrance rules will be in effect, keep this in mind. Once you find a bag of holding, completely disregard them.
- Being an elf or half-elf is no longer a pre-requisite for the Arcane Archer prestige class. Being evil is no longer a pre-requisite for being of the Assassin prestige class. Weapon Finesse is no longer a pre-requisite for the Duelist prestige class, but the character must attack using their Dexterity modifier.
- Any 3.5e base class is allowed for play, except for anything from Dragon magazine. I will allow no spells or magical items outside of the Pathfinder books, except on a case-by-case basis. Some of that stuff was broken, yo.
- You may play any creature without racial hit die, if it fits into the setting. (Races such as tiefling, aasimar, sylph, tengu, etc.) Other setting-specific rules for races will be handed out with the appropriate world-pack, prior to playing (if any).
* Dice are not actually a full spread of numbers, math-wise. Because they begin at one, the half-value of a, for example, six-sided die is closer to 3.5 rather than 3. That means that the half value for dice, rounded to the closest whole number, is commonly one value higher than you might think. For hit die, this means that Greg the Fighter taking half of his hit-die gives him 6 HP, rather than 5.
The half value of each die, in this system of house-rules, is 1 higher than half of the actual numerical value that would apply logically. For example, half of a d6 is 4, and half of a d20 is 11.
Hero Points
- If any of you have played in my games before, you know I award 'action points' that can alter combat and non-combat encounters. Instead of action points, campaigns will now use Hero Points, as per the rules detailed in the Advanced Players Guide (pg. 322).
Damage Threshold
- All characters have a new statistic, known as a Damage Threshold (DT). On your character sheet, display this value underneath your total Hit Point (HP) value.
- This statistic is equal to the character's total Fortitude save, character level, and the value of their greatest hit-die. For example, Greg the Fighter (Human Fighter 6) has a damage threshold of 21; 5 from his fortitude save, 6 from his level, and 10 from his hit-die value. Levin the Wizard (Elf Wizard 6) has a damage threshold of 14; 2 from his save, 6 from his level, and 6 from his hit-die.
- Spells and items that increase fortitude saves also increase a creature's damage threshold, as the fortitude save is a component of the damage threshold. If a creature has more than two classes, with differing hit dice, the creature may choose the more favorable hit die value for their damage threshold. This includes racial hit-die, if applicable.
- Damage reductions apply to damage rolls before they are compared to the damage threshold of the creature being attacked. E.g. If the attack does not bypass the damage reduction of the creature, then you may consider the creature's damage threshold to be higher by the value of their damage reduction (because it has reduced the incoming damage). Damage reduction still applies to HP damage, if it is not bypassed.
- Example: If a character has a damage threshold of 22, and gains DR 2/-, then you may consider his damage threshold to have risen to 24, while still applying the damage reduction value of 2 to HP loss as well.
- Creatures larger than Medium size gain a bonus to their damage threshold. This size bonus is +5 for Large, +10 for Huge, +20 for Gargantuan and +50 for Colossal. This bonus is applied or removed, as appropriate, if a creature changes size.
- You can improve your damage threshold with the feat Improved Damage Threshold, increasing your damage threshold by 5. This feat may only be taken once.
- Attacks that deal massive amounts of damage can impair or incapacitate you regardless of how many hit points you have remaining. Your damage threshold determines how much damage a single attack must deal to reduce your combat effectiveness, or in some cases, kill you. When a creature takes damage in excess of his damage threshold, he moves along a metric known as the Condition Track, reflecting injury and combat fatigue. There are five levels on the condition track. A creature may only move up or down the condition track in single steps. The penalties of the condition track also modify a creature's damage threshold.
>> Normal State (no conditional penalties) <<
> -1 penalty to all defenses and saving throws; -1 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and skill checks.
> -2 penalty to all defenses and saving throws; -2 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and skill checks.
> -5 penalty to all defenses and saving throws; -5 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and skill checks.
> -10 penalty to all defenses and saving throws; -10 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and skill checks; move at half speed only.
> Helpless; unconscious or disabled.
- Display your condition track status underneath your DT value, on your character sheet. The easiest way is with a series of ✘'s or ✔'s, up to 5. You may also use a specific die as a counter, or a series of tokens, whatever your preference is.
- You can improve your condition by spending a Standard action, that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, to move up the condition track by one step. Magical healing that meets or exceeds your damage threshold also improves your condition by a single step. Resting normally for eight consecutive, uninterrupted hours removes all conditions affecting a creature and returns it to its normal state (except if it had been lowered to the last step of the track, Disabled; magical or mundane assisted healing is then required to begin moving up the condition track). The spell Lesser Restoration can move a creature one step up the condition track; Restoration and Greater Restoration remove all conditions and return a creature to its normal state.
- This system has been adapted from the Star Wars Saga Edition d20 rules, for use with Pathfinder. Just so you know where it came from, credit where credit is due, etc. Also, you know who to blame if you get pwnt in combat.
- I will help you invent class features and feats that take advantage of this system, to either move an enemy down the track quickly, or yourself and allies back up your own track more effectively. There will also be features that get bonuses depending on how injured you are, etc. Just let me know, and we can sit down to make some stuff up. Full disclosure: we'll steal class features from Star Wars d20.
- Hit Points are an abstraction of a character's effort expended to avoid deadly blows. The only strikes that actually "hit" your character, in game terms, are the blows that take you down the condition track, and the final blow that kills them. All others are strikes that are wearing them down to that point. Higher hit points and damage thresholds are merely a character being more able and likely to shrug off those preliminary damages.
- Hit Points are tracked by the player during combat, however, other characters are not aware of other creatures' or characters' total remaining hit points, unless they succeed on a DC 15 Heal check. Conditions on the condition track are readily apparent when others have full perception of the creature.
Alignment
- The classic alignments will no longer exist.
- Alignments will be reduced to four basic terms; Lawful, Altruistic, Pragmatic and Selfish. The alignments in the game world will be any combination of those terms, with the exception of Altruistic/Selfish mixes, as they are antonyms. The last alignment, Evil, will still exist as its own special case, as it is entirely different from any other alignment in terms of scope of action. These new alignments will help to determine what sort of person your character is, and how people will react to your actions.
- This means you may end up adventuring with someone who is very Altruistic, and someone who is very Selfish, and not have a problem with either of them.
- The new alignments will help define characters on their basic beliefs, motivations and actions, and I feel will do a stronger job than the 9 classic alignments.
- Actions are still defined by 'good' and 'evil', as determined by the world's pantheon of gods (or ultimate ethical power). However, your good/evilness is no longer tattooed on your soul, and the results of good and evil actions fade from your magically detectable aura over time. If you murder someone in cold blood, you may have a moderate aura of "evil" for several years, but stealing a candy may only hold for an hour or two -- or a day at most, should you be proud of your theft. Spells like Detect Evil will detect such things as this, and shouldn't be too mechanically different than before, as it was subject to GM discretion in most cases.
- The only classic alignment remaining will be Evil. It is impossible for any mortal creature to have this alignment, and it can only be gained upon immortality and bargaining with one of the Elder Evil Gods (or whatever is setting-appropriate). There is nothing any mortal can achieve that is actual, true, Evil.
- There is no longer a hard-and-fast alignment restriction on classes, especially the Paladin, Monk and Barbarian. Monks and Barbarians may now be of any alignment. Paladins must be 'good' and hold to the tenets of their faith, but otherwise are not restricted to "lawfulness", or even Altruism in the strictest sense. Paladins may now cheat, lie, steal, gamble, use poison, traps and even execute the helpless, should they deem it necessary -- but only to serve the greater good, not merely themselves. In essence, Paladins are the ultimate Pragmatists, and must always be thinking of the greater benefit. These values and tenets are usually the same as the Paladin's god or gods.
Parry
- I know that Armor Class is supposed to incorporate the idea of a character parrying and blocking attacks as they fight their antagonists, but none of the components that go into AC show that inclusion. Parrying, as a set of rules, should make combat more interesting for martial characters, force people to be engaged even when it is not their turn, and adds an active defense for everyone that they can interact with at any time.
- When an opponent attacks you in melee range, you may attempt to parry a single attack from that opponent before you know whether or not the attack is successful. This attempt is an attack of opportunity (which also means you may not attempt to parry while flat-footed). You must be wielding a weapon or using a natural weapon to make a parry attempt. When you choose to make a parry attempt, you make an attack roll at a -4 penalty as an opposed roll to your opponent's attack roll (as per conditions on the attackers turn). If you beat your opponent's total, you have successfully parried his blow, causing him to fail to hit you. If you fail to parry the blow, you become off-balance and are easily struck, and you are treated as flat-footed for that attack, and it has successfully struck you. No other attack in that round treats you as being flat-footed due for failing a parry attempt.
- You automatically fail to parry on a natural 1. You are unable to successfully parry if your opponent rolls a natural 20. If the attacker and defender both roll a natural 20, the attack still hits, but the critical hit check automatically fails.
- You can not normally parry ranged attacks, magic, or combat maneuvers.
- You can make a parry attempt against a Charge at a -6 penalty. You can not set an attack against a charge and parry at the same time.
- You can attempt to parry a Disarm or Sunder attempt made on an item you wear that is not your weapon at a -6 penalty. Sunder and Disarm attempts against your weapon can not be parried.
- You can attempt to parry a melee touch attack at a -10 penalty. Parrying a touch attack always uses your Dexterity modifier on the attack roll rather than your Strength modifier.
- Combat Expertise/Fighting Defensively: The penalty to attack rolls from use of the Combat Expertise or while fighting defensively does not apply to parry attempts. A creature retains their ability to parry effectively when fighting to protect themselves.
- Total Defense Action: While taking the total defense action as a full-round action, you may still make parry attempts, but you may not make riposte attacks. In addition to the +4 dodge bonus to AC, you receive a +4 circumstance bonus to your parry attempts.
- Combat Reflexes: You may make as many parry attempts as you have Attacks of Opportunity. Having good Combat Reflexes gives you more opportunities to parry attacks.
- Deflect Arrows: If you have the Improved Parry feat, it counts as having having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purposes of gaining the Deflect Arrows feat. If you have the Deflect Arrows feat, you may use your weapon to deflect a ranged attack as normal without requiring a free hand. You may not use the Snatch Arrows feat with a weapon, and Improved Parry does not qualify you for Snatch Arrows.
- Improved Unarmed Strike: If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you may make parry attempts while unarmed.
- Parrying Weapons: the following weapons should have their description appended to add: "When using this weapon, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to parry an attack."
- Dagger
- Hanbo
- Quarterstaff
- Short Sword
- Long Sword
- Rapier
- Kama
- Sai
- Rhoka
- Aldori Dueling Sword
- Elven Curve Blade
- Two-Bladed Sword
- Parry- Related Feats:
- Improved Parry [General, Fighter]: You are very adept at parrying your enemies' attacks with your own weapon. Prerequisites: Dexterity 13 or Intelligence 13. Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls made for parrying attempts are lessened by 4. Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.
- Friendly Deflection [General, Fighter}: Your skillful prowess in combat allows you to fend for your allies. Prerequisites: Improved Parry. Benefit: When you are adjacent to an ally who in being attacked, you may make a parry attempt to negate the blow against them, at a -4 penalty. The attacker's blow must be one that you would normally be able to parry, if it were directed at you. If you are using a reach weapon, you may consider space you threaten with that weapon to be within the bounds of parrying, for this feat. Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats. Normal: You may only parry blows directed at yourself.
- Riposte [General, Fighter]: Your combat skills have progressed to a point where you may parry a blow and immediately respond with an attack of your own. Prerequisites: Dexterity 15 or Intelligence 15, base attack +4, Improved Parry. Benefit: When you successfully parry an attack, you may immediately make a melee attack against the opponent you just parried at your full base attack bonus. This attack is a part of the same action used to make the parry attempt, which means parrying and following up with a riposte uses a single attack of opportunity. Regardless of the number of parry attempts you can make in a round, you can only make a single riposte. This feat does not give you extra attacks of opportunity during a round or allow you to make an attack of opportunity when you would be denied one for being surprised, helpless, or in a similar situation. Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.
- Riposte Mastery [Tactical, Fighter]: As you parry your opponent's blows, you gain better control of your opponent and the battle. Prerequisites: Dexterity 15 or Intelligence 13, Improved Parry, Riposte. Benefit: This feat allows the use of several tactical maneuvers, each of which requires that you attempt a special attack immediately following a successful parry.
- Press the Advantage: After successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to bull rush the opponent you parried in place of your normal riposte attack. You gain a +2 bonus to the check as if you were charging. Your opponent does not receive an attack of opportunity against you, even if you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat.
- Disarming Flourish: After successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to disarm the weapon with which your opponent just attacked in place of your normal riposte attack. You may only disarm that weapon with which your opponent attacked, not any other item he possesses. Your opponent does not receive an attack of opportunity against you, even if you do not have the Improved Disarm feat.
- Unbalancing Blow: After successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to trip the opponent you parried in place of your normal riposte attack. Make a melee touch attack with your weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack. Your opponent does not receive an attack of opportunity against you, even if you are using a weapon which does not normally allow trip attacks and do not have the Improved Trip feat.
- Quick Feint: If you have the Improved Feint feat, then after successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to feint against the opponent you parried in place of your normal riposte attack. You receive a bonus to your Bluff check equal to the amount by which your parry attempt exceeded your opponent's attack. This uses your Immediate Action for the round.
- Sudden Grab: If you are unarmed, then after successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to start a grapple against the opponent you parried in place of your normal riposte attack. You provoke attacks of opportunity as normal.
- Normal: Without this feat, a riposte attack can only be a standard melee attack. Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.
- This parry rule was borrowed from a poster on the GITP forums whose name I cannot remember. Apologies to the author.
Skills
- Some skills have been eliminated or brought into a single skill together. If two or more skills are now a single skill, you need only to put skill ranks into the remaining skill. If a class has a skill listed, but not the new broader skill, they may consider the broader skill to be a class skill.
- Appraise has been melded into Perception (Wisdom).
- Escape Artist is now a part of Acrobatics (Dexterity).
- Climb, Ride and Swim are now Athletics (Strength). [The skill Climb may be substituted on Pathfinder-standard character sheets.]
- Knowledge (Nobility) is now a part of Knowledge (History).
- Knowledge (Arcana) may be used in place of Knowledge (Planes).
- Use Magic Device is no longer a skill, but merely a check made by adding character level and charisma modifier to a d20 roll. All characters are able to activate magical devices, given enough personal power and conviction.
- New System: Upon character creation, characters choose, from their class skills list, a number of skills to be trained in. This number is equal to the amount of skill ranks available to the character at their level (usually level 1). These trained skills must be chosen from their class skills. If a created character has more skill choices available than class skills, they may choose as many trained skills as they have excess ranks to receive a +3 bonus to, as if they had chosen the Skill Focus feat. For example, Greg the Fighter, with an intelligence of 12, chooses 5 skills from his class skills to become trained in them. They become his trained skills. If Greg gained greater Intelligence, and another point of modifier, he would choose another class skill to become a trained skill.
A character also has the choice, upon creation, to spend a second point to gain Skill Focus in a trained skill (as if they had more ranks than class skills).
- Skill checks: If the skill is a trained skill, the check is 1d20 + character level + relevant skill modifier + other modifiers (such as items, etc.). If the skill is not a trained skill, they roll with 1d20 + half character level (rounded down) + relevant skill modifier + other modifiers. Taking a 10 and taking a 20 still exist. Here they are again, for clarity:
- Trained: d20 + character level + ability + other
- Untrained: d20 + half-level + ability + other
- Some skills checks cannot be made untrained, whether or not it is a class skill. These restricted skills are Disable Device, Handle Animal, all Knowledge skills (except Local, if your character is from or has adventured extensively in the area), Linguistics, Profession (any), Sleight of Hand, and Spellcraft. A character must have selected these skills as one of their trained skills in order to make a check for it, otherwise the character must make an improvised roll at a -15 penalty. If a character has a trained skill that they and the GM agree is relevant to the check (such as Knowledge (Arcana) for a Spellcraft check), they may substitute that skill for the proper skill, at a -10 penalty. They cannot take a 10 or 20 on this check.
- Taking the skill Linguistics as a trained skill grants as many bonus languages to a character equal to the value of their Intelligence modifier, if positive, and an additional language every two character levels. This is in addition to any starting languages the character may have. If they have no, or a negative, Intelligence modifier, they may choose a single language to learn in addition to their starting languages every two character levels.
- Characters may take the feat Skill Training: "Choose one untrained skill from your class skill list. You may now consider that skill a trained skill. This feat may be taken as many times as a character has untrained class skills."
- Multi-class characters: When you select a new class, you do not gain new trained skills. Instead, your list of class skills expands to include those of the new class. You may select a single class skill from your newly expanded skill list to become a trained skill. This new trained skill must be from the class skills of your new class. If you take the Skill Training feat, you may choose a new trained skill from your expanded list of class skills.
Character Classes
- Only changes will be listed. If the class you want isn't on here, that means it didn't get any changes.
Barbarian
- Rage: No Fatigue penalty from exiting a rage. For every HD the Barbarian has he gains Fast Healing 1 while raging. You may never enter/exit a Rage on the same round that you enter/exit a Rage.
- 8th level: +10′ Move (per Fast Movement)
- 16th level: +10′ Move (per Fast Movement)
Druid
- Wild Spell is no longer a feat; druids receive this ability automatically at 5th level. Who doesn't take this feat, seriously?
Fighter
- Now proficient with an exotic weapon of their choice at 4th level, plus another for every 2 fighter levels past 4th.
- Aldori Swordlord fighter archetype is automatically proficient with the Aldori dueling sword exotic weapon.
Monk
- Monk unarmed damage/abilities can be applied with other natural weapons and all monk weapons
Paladin
- May be either Wisdom or Charisma-based for class abilities and spells.
- May be all alignments barring CE; must have strict code or discipline to adhere to. Breaking the code will cause the paladin to 'fall'.
- Need not have a god from which you gain your powers, but it is recommended (who's gonna back you up if you piss off another god?).
Ranger
- Hide in Plain sight works anywhere, once gained
- May choose to lose all spell-casting and instead gain an animal companion at 1st level, following Druid rules. Ranger must be of the Skirmisher archetype.
Rogue
- Hide in Plain Sight (from Shadowdancer prestige class) is an available choice for Advanced Talents
Anti-paladin
- If we're using my new alignment system, this class doesn't really matter. Otherwise, you probably won't play this, because evil campaigns are weird.
- The cardinal Don't Be a Dick rule applies.
Witch
- Variant: you may play the witch as a Charisma-based class; change the spell progression to the progression of the Sorcerer. Charisma becomes your primary stat for all class abilities (which were previously Intelligence-based). You now have 4 + Int skills per level, rather than 2.
- Variant: you may play the witch as a Wisdom-based class; your spell progression remains the same.. Wisdom becomes your primary statistic for all class abilities (which were previously Intelligence-based). You now have 4 + Int skills per level, rather than 2.
Samurai
- This class is available as per the Ultimate Combat Playtest pdf. When Ultimate Combat is released, you may use that version
Ninja
- Ditto from Samurai
Gunslinger
- You may use the Alvena gunslinger class, created by J. Scott Mohn.
- If the setting has firearms, we will use the Alvena firearms rules, detailed in the gunslinger base class pdf file
FEATS
Some feats just shouldn't be feats. Seriously.
- Weapon Finesse is no longer a feat. At character generation, you choose your specific statistic to determine your attack rolls; either Dexterity or Strength. Any weapon may be wielded in this way, including two-handed weapons and pole-arms. If you choose Strength, you gain the benefit of adding your Strength modifier to your damage rolls in addition to attacks rolls, if the weapon is wielded in one hand, or 1.5x your Strength modifier if the weapon is wielded in two hands. If you choose Dexterity, you cannot add your Strength modifier to damage, even if you have one, but gain the benefit of a higher AC from Dexterity, and greater chance to hit with both ranged and melee weapons. Ranged weapons are always rolled with the Dexterity modifier.
- Agile Maneuvers is no longer a feat, on the same basis that Weapon Finesse is no longer a feat. The choice is made are character creation, and is generally the same as chosen for melee attack. See the feat listing in the Core Rulebook for more details.
- A character, if they wish to, may spend a day re-training, and may change their melee to-hit statistic from Strength to Dexterity, or vice versa. Like, I dunno, permanent ability drain or something like that gets your character and suddenly your strength goes down the toilet. You just get to change it if you want, right? Okay good.
- Power Attack is no longer a prerequisite for feats, nor is it a feat itself. Any character may choose to "Attack Powerfully" at any time, if they have a BAB of +1 or higher, gaining damage (if the attack hits) equal to double the value that was sacrificed from the attack roll, up to the characters BAB. Any value up to the BAB may be chosen. For example, Greg the Fighter attacks powerfully, and has a BAB of +6. He may choose to sacrifice up to -6 from his attack roll, gaining +12 to damage, should the attack hit. However, Greg now suffers a -6 to all attacks for the remainder of the round, including attacks of opportunity.
- A new feat shall be added, called Shock Trooper, that allows a character to attack powerfully, and move the penalty from their attack roll to their AC score, reflecting the recklessness of the attack. For example, to gain +10 to a damage roll, a character would sacrifice -5 from their AC for the remainder of the round. When attacking with the feat Shock Trooper, a character cannot Fight Expertly, nor as a ranged attack.
- A character cannot choose to parry powerfully, nor riposte powerfully.
- Deadly Aim is no longer a prerequisite for feats, nor is it a feat itself. It functions as "Attack Powerfully", but with ranged attack rolls. The feat Shock Trooper cannot be used with ranged attacks of any kind.
- Combat Expertise is no longer a prerequisite for feats, no is it a feat itself. Any character may choose to "Fight Expertly" at any time, if they have a BAB or +1 or higher, gaining a dodge bonus to AC, up to the characters BAB, equal to the value sacrificed from their attack rolls. For example, Greg the Fighter fights expertly, and has a BAB of +6. He may choose to sacrifice up to -6 from his attack roll, gaining a +6 Dodge bonus to his AC for the remainder of the round, whether or not his attack is successful.
- This rule replaces both "fighting defensively" and the feat "combat expertise".
- Total defense, as a full round action, still exists.
- Lunge is no longer a feat, nor a prerequisite for feats. Any character with a BAB of +1 or higher may choose to gain an additional 5 feet of reach with any melee weapon they are currently wielding, and take a -2 penalty to their AC for the rest of the round, and a -2 penalty to that specific attack roll. Any combination of attacks may be lunge attacks or normal attacks, but lunging provokes an attack of opportunity from threatening creatures. Multiple lunging attacks in a single round do not additionally penalize the character's AC or attack rolls; they are all made at the same penalty. Attacks of opportunity can not be lunges.
- Feat trees will now scale as you level. If you take Two-Weapon fighting, at any level where you meet the prerequisites, you may also receive Improved or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting automatically, should you qualify for it. This means that at the level where a character would normally take the next feat in their chain, they instead gain it automatically, and it does not take up the choice of feat for that character level. This applies to any discrete feat chain, usually with a Improved/Greater/Mastery division. If a feat has only a single other feat as a prerequisite, and the character has that prerequisite feat, then he automatically gains that upgraded feat at a point where he is able to.
- Eschew Feats no longer exists, as material components for spells no longer exist if they have a negligible cost (such as any component found in the spell component pouch provided to the Wizard class). Spell components are a bad joke that need to leave forever. Sorcerers now receive a bloodline bonus feat instead of Eschew Materials. No arcane spell-casters require a material component for any spell, but they do require a focus, as a Cleric or Paladin does. This may be any object that is specifically important to the caster, such as an earring, or broken sword (you get the idea). Except for Sorcerers, who just go.
- Characters gain the feat Master Craftsman for free if they have 7 or more ranks in Craft or an appropriate Profession (or have reached 7th level in my home-brew skill system). Everyone can make magical things if they are good enough at making things in general. Item creation feats can be gained in this as well, for free, as the non-caster character reaches the appropriate level for the Item Creation feat, plus 7 (the first five ranks).
GAME CHANGERS, HOO-AH!
- Introduction: One of the biggest problems with the d20 fantasy systems (D&D 2e, 3e, 3.5e and Pathfinder) is that Martial and Magical characters are extremely disparate in terms of power. The main difference, to sum it up, is that it will always be "more effective" to Colour Spray a group of enemies than it is to hit them until they die. ("For your new level, Greg the Fighter, you get to trip enemies better, and have a +1 to hit! Levin the Wizard, you now get 5 new spells, two of which bend reality to your whims"). Magic is just more effective than martial prowess, every time. It gets worse at higher levels, where wizards and witches can stop time, summon inter-dimensional beings to do their bidding, destroy entire country-sides on a whim, and get whatever they please through the use of Wish... and the fighter now has the ability to never be disarmed, and the barbarian can rage without getting tired. Sadly, both of those perks can be given through magic at even earlier levels (locked gauntlet, an item, and Remove Fatigue).
This doesn't mean that magic should be weaker -- it's an integral part of the system, and characters are measured on a power metric (the Challenge Rating and Effective Character Level systems for challenges) that requires them to have a certain amount of magical items per level, as dictated by their Wealth By Level guideline. Where that breaks down is that martial characters rely on magical means to stay competitive, while magical characters need only rely on themselves, as they are able to make their own magical items. The rules rely on magic.
Another problem is the attribute dependencies. A wizard, witch, sorcerer, oracle, cleric or druid really only needs one attribute; their casting stat. It's nice to have higher stats in other places, but they really only need that 18 or 20 in one place. Everyone else needs Strength (to hit things) Dexterity (to hit things from far away, and not get hit), Constitution (don't catch diseases! try not to die!), Wisdom (anti-mindrape), Intelligence (skillzz, b+&@$es love skillszs), and/or Charisma (to talk to people. Or, you know, just tons of Intelligence, as long as that Cha score isn't giving you a negative in Diplomacy).
There are some martial classes that can get by on a little, like the Paladin; once you hit third level, just pump that Str and Cha -- but others, like the Monk, still require all but Charisma in order to stay reliable throughout a campaign. I've gotten some basic conclusions out of this: mainly, these games are not finely balanced, but instead finely functional. It's also apparent that while stabbing things is fun, you will live longer if you can stop time, or summon tentacles to rape an army while they freeze in a snowstorm you also summoned (heyooo Ranna!) --> It's fine if you don't get that reference.
In order to keep up with monsters and other enemies on the Challenge Rating metric, all characters, but especially martial characters, need statistic-boosting items -- magical items that grant Intelligence +2, or Constitution +4, or Charisma +6. Martial characters, on top of need those lovely Strength +4 belts and tomes, etc, also need their +2 and +3 weapons, all made of magical materials.
That all costs money, and all requires magic -- but not just any magic: boring magic. Magic that gives you a "+number" is lame. That's not fun magic! It's just a number! Unfortunately, these stat-boosters are integral to the game rules. These next house-rules change some of the fundamentals of the game itself, with the intention of giving all characters staying power over many levels without giving stat-boost items, and to give some fundamental magic back into magical items.
Leveling Up!
- Characters, as they level, will receive upgrades to their basic scores (abilities, skills, AC, etc.) in addition to the normal rules. They will follow the following metric:
2nd Deflection +2
3rd Natural Armor +2, Endure Elements
4th Empowered Strike +1, Ability Score Enhancement +2, Resistance +1
5th Sustenance, Bonus Feat
6th Deflection +3, Natural Armor +3
7th Empowered Strike (Special Ability), Fortification (10%)
8th Empowered Strike +2, Ability Score Enhancement +4/+2, Resistance +2, Mind Shielding
9th Natural Armor +4, Flight 1/day, (Normal Speed, Average Maneuverability)
10th Empowered Strike (Alignment), Damage Reduction (5/Magic), Energy Resistance (5)
11th Empowered Strike (Special Ability), Fortification (25%), Spell Resistance
12th Deflection +4, Natural Armor +5, Empowered Strike +3, Ability Score Enhancement +6/+4/+2, Resistance +3, Greater Sustenance
13th Flight 3/day (Double Speed, Good Maneuverability)
14th Freedom of Movement, Bonus Feat
15th Empowered Strike (Special Ability), Fortification (50%), Damage Reduction (5/varies), Energy Resistance (10)
16th Empowered Strike +4, Ability Score Enhancement +8/+6/+4/+2, Resistance +4
17th Regeneration, Flight 5/day (Triple Speed, Perfect Maneuverability)
18th Deflection +5, True Seeing
19th Empowered Strike (Special Ability), Fortification (75%)
20th Empowered Strike +5, Ability Score Enhancement +10/+8/+6/+4/+2, Resistance +5, Damage Reduction (10/varies), Energy Resistance (15), Perfection
Deflection (Su): At 2nd level you gain a +2 deflection bonus to AC. This bonus increases to +3 at 6th level, and by an additional +1 every 6 levels thereafter.
Natural Armor (Ex): At 3rd level you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to natural armor. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 12th level.
Endure Elements (Ex): At 3rd level you become immune to the effects of being in a hot or cold environment. You can exist comfortably in conditions between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit without having to make Fortitude saves (as described int the Dungeon Master's Guide) for up to 48 hours. After that point you receive only half the normal non-lethal damage from these conditions.
Empowered Strike (Su): At 4th level you gain a +1 enhancement bonus on all attack and damage rolls. In effect, any weapon you wield functions as a +1 magic weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were a magic weapon. This enhancement increases by +1 at 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter. At 10th level any weapon you wield is also considered to have your alignment, so for example if you had an aura of Chaotic Good you would ignore damage reduction x/good and x/chaotic. At 7th level, and again every 4 levels thereafter, choose one of the following magic weapon special abilities to apply to any single weapon you wield: Bane, Defending, Flaming, Frost, Ghost Touch, Keen, Ki Focus, Merciful, Mighty Cleaving, Spell Storing, Shock, Throwing, Thundering, Vicious. This enhancement cannot be changed once chosen. At 7th level, your weapon is now a Legendary Weapon, and must be named to reflect this power within it. If you lose this weapon, you may gain a new one, with new enhancements of your choice, by purchasing a basic weapon and spending a week in contemplation and training with it, enchanting it with your inherent heroic power.
Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): At 4th level you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to one ability score. At 8th level and every four levels thereafter you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to an additional ability score, and each previous ability's enhancement increases by +2.
Resistance (Ex): At 4th level you gain a +1 resistance bonus to saving throws. This bonus increases by +1 at 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter.
Sustenance (Ex): At 5th level you no longer need to eat or drink.
Flight (Su): At 9th level you gain a fly speed equal to your base land speed with average maneuverability. At 13th level this increases to double your base land speed with good maneuverability, and at 17th level it increases again to triple your base land speed with perfect maneuverability. This ability grants flight in the most mechanical of terms, and can be described in any way appropriate to the character or situation.
Fortification (Ex): Starting at 7th level, when you are affected by a sneak attack or critical hit you have a chance to negate the effect and take normal damage, depending on level: 7th: 10% 11th: 25% 15th: 50% 19th: 75%.
Mind Shielding (Ex): At 8th level you become immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to discern your alignment. If you are unconscious, incapacitated, sleeping, or otherwise unable to control your own thoughts, your alignment is detectable.
Damage Reduction (Su): You gain damage reduction 5/magic at 10th level. At 15th level this increases to 5/magic and silver (if you are lawful), or 5/magic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 5/magic and adamantine (if you are neutral). At 20th level this increases to 10/epic and silver (if you are lawful), or 10/epic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 10/epic and adamantine (if you are neutral).
Energy Resistance (Ex): At 10th level you gain resistance 5 against acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic energy. This increases to resistance 10 at 15th level and resistance 15 at 20th level.
Spell Resistance (Su): Starting at 11th level you gain spell resistance equal to your ECL + 10.
Greater Sustenance (Ex): At 12th level you no longer need to breath.
Freedom of Movement (Ex): Starting at 14th level you can act as if continually under the effect of a freedom of movement spell.
Regeneration (Ex): Starting at 17th level you heal 1 point of damage per level every hour rather than every day. (This ability cannot be aided by the Heal skill.) Nonlethal damage heals at a rate of 1 point of damage per level every 5 minutes.
True Seeing (Su): At 18th level you gain a continuous true seeing ability, as the spell.
Perfection/Godhood (Ex): At 20th level you transcend mortal limits. You become an outsider, gaining the outsider type with appropriate alignment subtypes and the native subtype (though you do not need to eat, sleep, or breath). Other bonuses or templates may be negotiated with the GM, as per appropriate to your character.
- This metric is to assume the place of any "mundane" magical items that are considered mandatory for an adventuring party, and are afforded if the same magical items were purchased on the Wealth By Level guidelines. This system allows the Wealth By Level guide to disappear, and be replaced by Wondrous Items rather than stat-boosters. This metric also allows monster and NPC's from published resources to remain as they are, with their published magical items, as the the player characters are now following the same upgrade metric, albeit without actual items doing so.
Magical Items
- First, there are no (zero, none, nada, zip, 0%) stat-boosting or +number items. The maximum mundane quality anything can be is Masterwork. Exotic materials still exist and have game effect, as they have very high 'cool factor' and cannot be replaced without a full system overhaul.
- All magical items that the party finds will be Wondrous Items, Scrolls, Potions, Rods or Staves. No other kinds of magic will be given to the party, as they are replaced by the above table. Scroll and Potions will be restricted to 3rd level spells or below, and wands will no longer exist (can be re-described with the powers of a stave or rod, if the player wishes). This means that anything magical you receive is actually magical, and does actually magical things.
- In terms of treasures, expect to find old coins, gems and non-magical treasures such as silks, spices and fine artwork.
- How many fingers do you have? That's how many rings you can wear. Only two function at a single time and it takes a full-round action to switch one for another.
- Want belts? You can wear tons of belts, anime style. Too bad there aren't any stat-boosting items, or else that would be awesome. Anyway, if you want to wear tons of belts, you can, but each belt more than a single belt incurs a -1 Armor Check Penalty.
- Clothing, whether magical or not, fits under armor, whether or not that is magical too. Clothing also fits under other clothing, but you incur a -1 Armor Check Penalty for each stacked item per equipment slot.
- Stack items per equipment slots incur a -1 Armor Check Penalty per item over slot limit. Armor of the same type can never stack. All penalties of stacked equipment are cumulative (such as speed reduction, etc.)
Iterative Attacks
- Any class that grants you enough BAB to have multiple, iterative attack, your character may now attack with all of those iterative attacks as a standard action, rather than a full attack action. This means you may now move up to your speed, and then attack with all of your attacks. Four iterative attacks would roll as per normal. If your class has a feature that would normally allow you to do this, such as Pounce, you gain an extra attack, at your highest Base Attack Bonus. Attacking at the end of a charge, if you have two iterative attacks or more, restricts you to two attacks at your highest BAB.
- Full attack actions still exist. The maximum penalty for each iterative attack is reduced to -5. So four attacks at the 20th level would roll as +20/+15/+15/+15, if there was a full-attack action made.
- Extra attacks, such as natural attacks, can only be made during full attacks. Only BAB allows extended standard attacks.
- This means that you still need to full-attack to use Two-Weapon Fighting.
Weapons
- All bows have a strength rating that does not cost any extra money. This strength rating is generally determined by the supposed user, at creation of the weapon. You cannot use the bow if your strength rating is less than the bow's. Bows larger than medium gain +30 feet to their maximum distance, increasing with increased size.
- Magical ammunition can no longer be broken. It's magic; it doesn't ever break. If you take the time to search for it and pick it up, it'll stay until you break it on purpose. Mundane imagination is also more resistant to breaking; arrows and bolts only break half the time, and anything made of metal (shuriken, etc.) doesn't break at all.
- It is possible to find 'Legendary Weapons' like Glamdring, or Makoto the Weeping Blade -- they start at their original legendary enhancement, and improve from your character upgrades from there. Your interaction only adds to the great history of the weapon.
Armor as Damage Reduction
- In this system, armor offers two benefits against attacks: a minor bonus to AC, which functions just like the armor bonus in the standard d20 rules but is usually lower in value; and damage reduction. You can determine the new armor values and damage reduction based on the standard armor bonus.
- To determine the armor’s damage reduction, divide the armor’s normal armor bonus by 2 (rounding down). To determine the armor’s new armor bonus, subtract the DR from the normal armor bonus. For example, studded leather has a normal armor bonus of +3. That gives it a DR of 1/- (half of 3, rounded down) and a new armor bonus of +2 (3 minus 1). All other values, such as armor check penalty and arcane spell failure remain the same.
- An armor’s enhancement bonus (if any) increases its armor bonus to AC, but has no effect on the armor’s damage reduction. A +3 chain shirt, for example, adds +5 to AC and grants damage reduction 2/-. (But it's not like you'll be find these kind of things anyway, right? Enhancement bonuses, booooo!)
- The damage reduction granted by armor stacks with other damage reduction of the same type (that is, damage reduction that has a dash after the number). A 7th-level barbarian wearing a breastplate has DR 3/- (1/- from his class levels and 2/- from his armor). A fighter wearing full plate armor who is the target of a stoneskin spell, however, has DR 4/- from the armor and 10/adamantine from the spell.
- Shields function normally in this variant, granting their full shield bonus to AC. Unlike with armor, a shield’s effectiveness is measured wholly by its ability to keep an attack from connecting with your body.
- A creature’s natural armor also provides a modicum of damage reduction. Divide the monster’s natural armor bonus (not including any enhancement bonus) by 5 to determine the monster’s damage reduction. The same value is subtracted from the monster’s natural armor bonus to find the monster’s new AC. If the creature already has damage reduction, either add the value gained from natural armor (if the existing damage reduction is of the same type) or treat it as a separate DR value (if it is of a different type).
- For example, a mummy normally has a natural armor bonus of +10. This gives it DR 2/-, and its natural armor bonus is reduced by 2 points to +8 (making it’s AC 18). Since the mummy already has DR 5/- as a special quality, its total damage reduction becomes DR 7/-.
- A mature adult red dragon has a natural armor bonus of +24. This gives it DR 4/-, and its natural armor bonus is reduced by 4 points to +20 (making its AC 28). The dragon’s existing damage reduction is 10/magic, so the two damage reduction values remain separate.
- Finally, a frost giant has a +9 natural armor bonus, so it gains DR 1/- from natural armor. The chain shirt it wears gives it an additional DR 2/-. If the frost giant were a 7th-level barbarian, the barbarian class levels would give it DR 1/-. These three values add up to DR 4/-. The giant’s AC would be 20 (10, +8 natural armor bonus, +2 chain shirt).
*read.. readread... readreadread... readreadreadreadreadreadread...*
*fall-down;facepalm;head-explodey;dies!* x.x
*read.. readread... readreadread... readreadreadreadreadreadread...*
*fall-down;facepalm;head-explodey;dies!* x.x
Thank you for your time. Anything in particular your disagree with or wish to critique?
I like alot of this, I will harvest, discuss, etc it when I get the chance!
Kudos!
I like alot of this, I will harvest, discuss, etc it when I get the chance!
Kudos!
Thank you, I look forward to your reply!
You have a great deal of additional complexities that really take the elegance and simplicity of Pathfinder...
And clutter it up with optional things that will bog down play, slow down table conventions, create brand new never before flamed about arguments, and create huge balloons of unnecessary power bloat.
While I like the concepts for much of what you're doing, I think you have too much for one document. This is virtually a new game. Many of the issues you've addressed seem familiar, either as options from Eberron, or from Mutants and Masterminds, or from Unearthed Arcana. While several of them were good in their individual settings, I think all glommed together is quite unnecessarily complex.
Many of these I've play-tested in my own home games, and havn't worked as well as they sound like they should have.
- DnD isn't built with wound levels in mind, and many feats are made redundant and worthless by including them.
- Armor as DR didn't pan out the way I had hoped.
- Action points are GREAT! Did you remember to add in the 10+ feats that support them?
- DnD isn't meant to be balanced. Pathfinder increases everyone's power, but then everyone plays a role in the party. Arcane magic is very powerful, yes, but how about encouraging your party members to have more than two encounters a day? Requiring wizards to budget their power and play by everyone's rules makes the game much more interesting.
- Huge balloons in power seem to have increased everyone's abilities through the roof. You address the 'Big Six' problem with magic item requirements, but you didn't look at the back of the Magic Item compendium and the easy to reference rules there about making those particular buffs -free additions- to other magic items? No additional charge?
- DnD is built around a cosmological tree, a layered sphere surrounded by spheres that are all conceptually linked to the nine alignments. Removing those is great and all... but did you address the sweeping cosmological changes that produces? Axiomatic creatures are... where...? Primordial creatures are... where...? Some two dozen spells have suddenly been made useless, and numerous features of the game rely on alignment to function. It's a universe of universal constants, if you remove them, what takes their place?
- Parrying Rules: What happened to 'My ac this round is Die-Roll + AC bonus because the *10* at the start of AC is just my passive defense'? Why the unneccessary bloat? You could roll your 'parrying' on the start of your turn WITH your attacks... all your complex calculations can be handled by a number tag so the DM can see your new and ever-shifting AC... Parrying as it stands looks like a great way to stab yourself in the face for 7d6 bonus sneak attack damage every round.
- Good job removing weapon finesse as a feat. Let me reintroduce you to Ralt the Rat, my AC34 7th level halfling monk/rogue who never misses on a flurry and has a hide check that often breaks 40...
- You give out a HOST of powerful feats.. for free... which leaves fighters with... what...? No reason to continue playing, really, when you could be a paladin? You give out Master Craftsman for free, and allow people to take item creation feats for free. Do they also lower the price of magic items across the board by 30% to remain competitive in a world where these items are SO common?
- Magical item stacking as in the epic feat? Excellent. Now I can have my shirt of epic casting under my shirt of spell resistance under my vest of resistance and dr/bludgeoning that makes me invisible to undead. When I get a few more pounds of silk, I can trade that in for other stacking enchantments on the cheap side on my two shirts. I'll look like a bag-lady, sure, but I'll be beyond epically powerful.
- Pounce, the most game breaking of abilities, is now free for everyone. Awesome.
- Ammunition and imagination, now unbreakable. So much for cost-for-value expendible magic items. Can we use scrolls over and over again too? Can we mix potions and drink them all together as a single action?
I think that about covers everything... I also think you might be trying to make Exalted (by White Wolf) work for Pathfinder...
Thank you for replying. I will answer your points and questions one at a time.
1.
You have a great deal of additional complexities that really take the elegance and simplicity of Pathfinder...
I know that Pathfinder removed much of the 'clutter' from 3.5, however I am adding rules with the intention of adding options. I don't feel that anything I've added is more complex than anything else, except perhaps for the Condition Track. However, that is neither here nor there, and we play at different tables.
2.
...bog down play, slow down table conventions, create brand new never before flamed about arguments, and create huge balloons of unnecessary power bloat...
Which areas are you seeing power bloat in? I was trying to lift dexterous and martial characters a little ways out of the pit they fall into underneath gishes and casters. Do you think I should have gone about this in a different way?
3.
Many of the issues you've addressed seem familiar, either as options from Eberron, or from Mutants and Masterminds, or from Unearthed Arcana. While several of them were good in their individual settings, I think all glommed together is quite unnecessarily complex.
You say they worked in their own rules; I agree. Why do you think they won't function together?
4.
DnD isn't built with wound levels in mind, and many feats are made redundant and worthless by including them.
While I accept and understand that, if it is true, I'm wondering which feats you think are negated by the Condition Track rules. Could you explain which those are?
5.
Action points are GREAT! Did you remember to add in the 10+ feats that support them?
I'm using Hero Points, which are Pathfinder rules, found in the APG. There are supporting feats for them. So, yes, I did remember to do that.
6.
DnD isn't meant to be balanced. Pathfinder increases everyone's power, but then everyone plays a role in the party. Arcane magic is very powerful, yes, but how about encouraging your party members to have more than two encounters a day? Requiring wizards to budget their power and play by everyone's rules makes the game much more interesting.
I do these things, or try to at the best of my ability. However, I am keeping that imbalance by playing Pathfinder at all, and using arcane power in settings and rules. People do have specific roles in a party, but I'm trying to make people feel like their choices are equal when they pick a class and role. I am trying to reduce the gap between the two disparate ends of the power spectrum (Fighter--Wizard). Whether or not that is an impossible goal, I am attempting it. Do you have any suggestions?
7.
Huge balloons in power seem to have increased everyone's abilities through the roof. You address the 'Big Six' problem with magic item requirements, but you didn't look at the back of the Magic Item compendium and the easy to reference rules there about making those particular buffs -free additions- to other magic items? No additional charge?
I did read those rules, but I don't like that they only reference gold piece value per level, rather than just handing over the Big Six without any extra rules surround them. I was hoping that my system would simplify that. Do you have a suggestion or alternate strategy in mind?
I'm not sure what you mean by "no additional charge."
8.
DnD is built around a cosmological tree, a layered sphere surrounded by spheres that are all conceptually linked to the nine alignments. Removing those is great and all... but did you address the sweeping cosmological changes that produces? Axiomatic creatures are... where...? Primordial creatures are... where...? Some two dozen spells have suddenly been made useless, and numerous features of the game rely on alignment to function. It's a universe of universal constants, if you remove them, what takes their place?
Those creatures still exist, because they are not on the Material Plane. Also, every setting is different, and sometimes they don't have more than a few (or only one) plane. I believe I also added in the text that prior actions cause characters to have an 'aura' based upon those actions, with which spells and class features can interact. This is more of a cosmetic change than a heavy crunchy one.
8.
Parrying Rules: What happened to 'My ac this round is Die-Roll + AC bonus because the *10* at the start of AC is just my passive defense'? Why the unneccessary bloat? You could roll your 'parrying' on the start of your turn WITH your attacks... all your complex calculations can be handled by a number tag so the DM can see your new and ever-shifting AC... Parrying as it stands looks like a great way to stab yourself in the face for 7d6 bonus sneak attack damage every round.
I stated why I added parrying rules; no part of the AC represents an active defense, unless the character "fights defensively", which penalizes a character's fighting ability. Parrying is also entirely optional. Rolling parry at the start of the turn is an idea, but it negates the Pathfinder style of having a risk to every action, or at least a minor penalty or situational use. Do you have any other ideas to streamline it?
I have no idea what you mean about stabbing yourself in the face.
9.
Good job removing weapon finesse as a feat. Let me reintroduce you to Ralt the Rat, my AC34 7th level halfling monk/rogue who never misses on a flurry and has a hide check that often breaks 40...
No need to be snarky.
Ralt the Rat sounds... fun? Anyway, one feat does not a cheese make. To put it another way, Ralt the Rat is possible(?) whether or not Weapon Finesse is a feat; it just takes one feat more to get to where he wants to be. It could even be his first-level feat, rather than Toughness, etc.
10.
You give out a HOST of powerful feats.. for free... which leaves fighters with... what...? No reason to continue playing, really, when you could be a paladin? You give out Master Craftsman for free, and allow people to take item creation feats for free. Do they also lower the price of magic items across the board by 30% to remain competitive in a world where these items are SO common?
If I take out the feats that a fighter would take no matter what, they have a greater ability to specialize earlier. More feats is exactly what Paizo did when they changed from 3.5, and while it has made characters slightly more powerful, it hasn't destroyed the game. Giving feats out for free gives them to everyone, which then allows the feat heavy classes, such as fighters, more feat options: they already have the prerequisites. They are quickly able to begin taking Fighter-only feats, rather than having to mess about with the prerequisites.
The feats I've removed are feats that mirror Fighting Defensively, a free combat option that has a bonus and a penalty. All the removed feats have a bonus and a penalty, and so should be always available (in my opinion). Advanced feats have very little penalty, or remove penalties, and so are not free.
I gave out Master Craftsman for free so that everyone can make magical things if they want to. I have not lowered the price of magical items. I'm not sure why I would. Could you explain that idea to me? I've never been very good at understanding the magical creation economy of these games.
11.
Magical item stacking as in the epic feat? Excellent. Now I can have my shirt of epic casting under my shirt of spell resistance under my vest of resistance and dr/bludgeoning that makes me invisible to undead. When I get a few more pounds of silk, I can trade that in for other stacking enchantments on the cheap side on my two shirts. I'll look like a bag-lady, sure, but I'll be beyond epically powerful.
Look, I'm asking for advice and critique, not a lashing.
Calm. Down. Dude.Anyway, yes, you may be right about this one. This was an attempt at realism, but if you think there should be a higher penalty for stacking, or I should remove it altogether, please suggest an idea or alternative.
12.
Pounce, the most game breaking of abilities, is now free for everyone. Awesome.
Well... it's sort of free. You need the BAB for it, of course, and you can't do it off of a charge. Also, no additional non-BAB based attacks (like natural attacks or TWF). So in battles where the high-BAB character would previously want to stay still for those full-attacks, he now has the option to move without mechanical output penalty. If you don't think that's a good idea, I'd really like to hear why.
13.
Ammunition and imagination, now unbreakable. So much for cost-for-value expendable magic items. Can we use scrolls over and over again too? Can we mix potions and drink them all together as a single action?
Not sure what you mean by imagination becoming unbreakable.
Anyway, as I mention in the magical-upgrade metric, I'm throwing out the wealth-by-level rules, which means that you might get cash-poor 14th level characters by my rules. Having ammunition that doesn't break is a good thing. Also, it's magical. Having it break doesn't make any sense to me.
The rules for scrolls and potions were left unaltered. Not sure why you have the impression I changed them.
I also think you might be trying to make Exalted (by White Wolf) work for Pathfinder...
Regarding your last statement: these rules are house-rules. They are made with the explicit intention of changing the game rules to the players and GM's liking. Of course these rules are going to be different from Pathfinder Core.
Please reply so that I may have my questions answered and perhaps gain some constructive criticism from you, rather than sarcasm. I'm not sure what I did to get you so riled up, but if you don't like these rules, you are under no obligation to use or even consider them. I'm just asking for constructive criticism and opinions from board members here.
You have a great deal of additional complexities that...
Also, any thoughts on my skill system?
All in all, I don't think it really adds any realism over the core rules, but pays for that lack of gain with additional complexity and paperwork.
Just my thoughts.
Hm. That was the opposite of my intention. I'll explain them in a different wording and maybe re-write the rule after.
Basically, instead of gaining skills points per level, you just choose (out of your selection of class skills) a number of skills to be trained in. This number is equal to the amount of skill points you have at first level.
Then, whenever you roll a skill check with those trained skills, you just add your character level and the ability modifier. Any other skill is only half of your character level, and the ability modifier.
The intention was that in the end this would reduce paperwork per level (no skill points to deal with) and streamline the acquisition of new trained skills (more intelligence, or a feat).
The end result is that characters are very good at what they can do, and fairly okay at everything else, barring the need-to-be-trained skills.
And yes, the skill-monkey rogue gets hugs from this, but that's a major feature of that class anyway, as a skill monkey.
Make better sense now? I'll reword the main document, I think...
I see.
Would you mind maybe working up one or two 1st level folks, such as a cleric and a rogue with a 14 INT or the like and show the numbers?
You wouldn't need to do a full statblock, just a few examples of the various classes.
Sure! The statblocks before racial adjustment are taken from the selection at the beginning of my houserule document.
DERRICK THE CLERIC (Human Cleric 1)
Str 16 (3)
Dex 12 (1)
Con 11 (1)
Int 14 (2)
Wis 18 (4)
Cha 8 (-1)
Skills: (4+2 int) [homebrew base amount]
Diplomacy: -1 (1 level, -1 ability)
Heal: 5 (1 level, 4 ability)
Knowledge Arcana: 3 (1 level, 2 ability)
Knowledge Religion: 3 (I level, 2 ability)
Linguisics: 3 (1 level, 2 ability)
Sense Motive: 5 (1 level, 4 ability)
Untrained skills are made with a pure ability check, as half of 1, rounded down, is zero.
ROGER THE ROGUE (Human Rogue 1)
Str 14 (2)
Dex 20 (5)
Con 10 (0)
Int 14 (2)
Wis 12 (1)
Cha 12 (1)
Skills (8+2 int)
Acrobatics: 6 (1 level, 5 ability)
Athletics: 3 (1 level, 2 ability)
Bluff: 2 (1 level, 1 ability)
Diplomacy: 2 (1 level, 1 ability)
Disable Device: 6 (1 level, 5 ability)
Escape Artist: 6 (1 level, 5 ability)
Intimidate: 2 (1 level, 1 ability)
Perception: 2 (1 level, 1 ability)
Stealth: 9 (1 level, 5 ability, 3 skill focus [from second rank spent -- see houserule for more details])
Untrained skills are made with a pure ability check, as half of 1, rounded down, is zero.
Here's a fighter, as a bonus.
FRED THE FIGHTER (Dwarf Fighter 1)
Str 18 (4)
Dex 10 (0)
Con 16 (3)
Int 14 (2)
Wis 14 (2)
Cha 10 (0)
Skills: (4+2int)
Athletics: 1 (1 level, 0 ability)
Craft: 3 (1 level, 2 ability)
Intimidate: 1 (1 level, 0 ability)
Knowledge Dungeoneering: 3 (1 level, 2 ability)
Knowledge Engineering: 3 (1 level, 2 ability)
Survival: 3 (1 level, 2 ability)
Untrained skills are made with a pure ability check, as half of 1, rounded down, is zero.
At level 4, all of these heroes' trained skills would be rolled as 4+ability, and their untrained skills as 2+ability.
And that's how it looks. Characters will be slightly weaker at first level, as they won't have a +3 trained class-skill bonus like in the old rules, but this will cut down leveling paperwork and make skill checks very easy to roll and reference for the rest of the game.
I'm editing the main document to include: (changes italicized)
- Skill checks: If the skill is a trained skill, the check is 1d20 + character level + relevant skill modifier + other modifiers (such as items, etc.). If the skill is not a trained skill, they roll with 1d20 + half character level (rounded down, minimum 1) + relevant skill modifier + other modifiers. Taking a 10 and taking a 20 still exist. Here they are again, for clarity:
- Trained: d20 + character level + ability + other
- Untrained: d20 + half-level + ability + other
This change will allow first-level characters to attempt all skills Untrained, except for Disable Device, Handle Animal, all Knowledge skills (except Local, if your character is from or has adventured extensively in the area), Linguistics, Profession (any), Sleight of Hand, and Spellcraft. These skills must be Trained in order to use.
The intention of this change is to lessen the penalty to first level characters using skills in my system, but leave the system unchanged in higher levels.
If you don't mind, let me go with the first thing I see - when you're ready to go on to another point, I will, but we have those statblocks for reference so it should be easy...
...As an experienced player, I'd chafe a lot under this system. Taking the non-class/trained skills as an example, I have the flexibility at level 5 to put in 5 skill ranks if I want to get a +10, but under your system I'm just like everyone else with a +5 Dex at my level (and it's not trained for them)....
While I think it's somewhat possible under your system, I don't think it's as flexible as the core rules but if that was one of your goals then I get it. I would loathe this skill system quickly; were I new to rpgs, it would probably serve as a good introduction.
That was actually my intention; to have characters specialize their skills in this way. I agree with your points above, especially lagging 15% behind core, and I may change the rule... thoughts on that below.
Actually, I just thought of something else - how are you planning on handling PrCs that have x ranks of a skill as a requirement?
Those, to me, were merely placeholders for a level requirement. I'm sure some may disagree, but have a strict skill level requirement does block early entry to most of the PrC's. Anyway, to answer your question: the character must have that kill as a trained skill, and have attained the proper ECL to have that many character level ranks in that skill.
THOUGHTS ON SKILLS: Because my system was in the interest of lessening paper work, I may revise the rule to account for your "15% lag" point, which I have overlooked in my theory-crafting.
- Characters now choose any skills to become Trained in, and gain that skill as a Trained skill. They add their character level rather than ranks to this skill.
- Choosing a class skill to become Trained in grants a +3 Class Skill bonus, as in the Pathfinder Core Rules.
- Class skill checks, even if untrained, can be made without the improvisation penalty.
- If a skill check is made with an untrained class skill, that character is still granted that +3 class skill bonus, even though they only add half of their character level (minimum 1)*.
* added as an edit, see comment previous to yours
So to reply to your skill ranks at each level, with this revised rule:
Acrobatics.
Core rogue: Acrobatics of 1 Rank + 3 Class + 5 Dex for a total of +9.
Under my old system, the rogue has a +6.
Revised system: 1 Level + 3 Class + 5 Dex for a total of +9.
At 5th level, core rogue: 5 Rank + 3 Class + 5 Dex for a total of +13.
Old system, it would be +10.
Revised: +13
So as you can see, they are no longer lagging.
At Level 10, assuming an untrained class skill with an ability modifier of 2. This character is modeled on your example of the master spy with a single rank in Profession (or something to that extent).
Core Rogue: 1 rank + 3 class + 2 ability = 6
Old system: 5 half-level + 2 ability - 10 improvisation = -3
Revised: 5 half-level + 3 class + 2 ability = 10
By the way, thank you for your time and critiques.
Question: How have these rules, working altogether, worked out in play?
The armor as DR rules and the Condition Track work really well together; heavy armor means you really can take more hits more often. Otherwise skills are still messy (as you can see). We're working in a few PrC's from the Star Wars d20 that take advantage of the Condition Track to allow more interaction with the rule. The 'realism' of injuries is fun without bogging play down with percentage-of-HP based penalties.
The feat stuff is working fine so far, and parry is pretty good too. A duelist-style fighter does wonders against most humanoids, very fun to play actively like that.
Iterative attacks... martial is a heavy hitter in this one. It make heavy armor with DR a good-looking option. Feat or naturally granted extra attacks needing a full-attack action, as per normal, keep dragons from killing everything, which is nice.
The only thing that I feel weird about is the "Big Six as granted" table, but it has totally eliminated Magic Mart style gameplay from our table, which is really nice.
Observation- you like a high powered game where people can spend their money and feats on character relevant things rather than every fighter having to take power attack and every character having to buy a ring of protection.
Is that close?
if so i like the idea, however the execution is going to be hard and you give a nice attempt.
It does seem a bit complicated, i didn't read through everything though...
quick question- what did you do with the duelist parry and riposte abilities then?
Observation- you like a high powered game where people can spend their money and feats on character relevant things rather than every fighter having to take power attack and every character having to buy a ring of protection.
Is that close?
if so i like the idea, however the execution is going to be hard and you give a nice attempt.It does seem a bit complicated, i didn't read through everything though...
quick question- what did you do with the duelist parry and riposte abilities then?
To your first point, yes that is exactly what I am attempting to do. Having the character you want to play is great, both mechanically and in roleplay.
Some things are a bit complicated, I agree, but it's probably my writing that makes it seem so. I'll try to clean some of it up.
Regarding the Duelist: I haven't. I will check that now.
Duelist:
Parry - you gain a +4 bonus to parry attempts.
Riposte - If your parry is successful, your attacker is counted at flat-footed for calculating the success of your riposte attack.
And I suppose I need some critiques on this as well.
Below is a set of house-rules that I have created, borrowed and mutated from several sources, and I would like your opinions on them, especially the magic item rules.
KILBOURNE'S PATHFINDER HOUSE-RULES
BASIC THINGS
Character Generation
** spoiler omitted **...
Do monsters also get to do full attacks as a standard action?
/QUOTE]
Do monsters also get to do full attacks as a standard action?
If they have a BAB to support it, yes. This, I realize, will make some of the melee-focused monsters very scary if they're pounding on someone who is not wearing all the armor -- a reason why I included the armor as DR rules.
Thoughts?
/QUOTE]
Do monsters also get to do full attacks as a standard action?
If they have a BAB to support it, yes. This, I realize, will make some of the melee-focused monsters very scary if they're pounding on someone who is not wearing all the armor -- a reason why I included the armor as DR rules.
Thoughts?
I don't think the DR will do much to stop a full round attack, but I do think it adds a bit of realism to the game.
I have found that allowing 3.5 stuff on a case by case basis is better. There is a lot of powerful stuff out there. I would drop the damage threadhold. It gets way to easy to bypass at higher levels. I think the massive damage rule had good intentions, but I would not use it at all
Using your level 6 fighter's 21 as an example of your current house rule.
Let's say an NPC has an opposing level 6 fighter which is a CR 5
str 14, power attack, furious focus. +1 greatsword
2d6+4+6(power attack)+2(weapon spec). Without a crit we are doing 20 points of damage of average, which is only 1 away from your fighter's threshold. I think you should run some numbers before continuing with this one.
I honestly have not read the entire draft in detail but I will try to make more comments later on.
I don't think the DR will do much to stop a full round attack, but I do think it adds a bit of realism to the game.I have found that allowing 3.5 stuff on a case by case basis is better. There is a lot of powerful stuff out there. I would drop the damage threadhold. It gets way to easy to bypass at higher levels. I think the massive damage rule had good intentions, but I would not use it at all
Using your level 6 fighter's 21 as an example of your current house rule.Let's say an NPC has an opposing level 6 fighter which is a CR 5
str 14, power attack, furious focus. +1 greatsword
2d6+4+6(power attack)+2(weapon spec). Without a crit we are doing 20 points of damage of average, which is only 1 away from your fighter's threshold. I think you should run some numbers before continuing with this one.I honestly have not read the entire draft in detail but I will try to make more comments later on.
Add in some DR from heavy armor, it gets a little more palatable. Looking forward to your comments.
My few thoughts:
Instead of saying that Power Attack ... easily hit most level appropriate opponents when raging.
Letting TWF scale automatically: I don't like it. TWF is currently more or less tied with THF for damage output. One of the only balancing acts is the feat cost. Reducing that from 3 feats to 1 is unbalancing. Especially if Dex 15 (requirement for TWF) now allows you Greater TWF (which normally needed 19. TWF'ers can now put more points into Str to deal more damage.
Just my quick thoughts.
Power attack: I agree, and the change has been made. Thank you for pointing that out.
Feat-Trees: the character still has to have the prerequisites to gain the feat, but need not take the feat itself. Therefore, a character still requires 19 dex, etc, to gain Greater TWF
Add in some DR from heavy armor, it gets a little more palatable. Looking forward to your comments.
I don't think the DR will do much to stop a full round attack, but I do think it adds a bit of realism to the game.I have found that allowing 3.5 stuff on a case by case basis is better. There is a lot of powerful stuff out there. I would drop the damage threadhold. It gets way to easy to bypass at higher levels. I think the massive damage rule had good intentions, but I would not use it at all
Using your level 6 fighter's 21 as an example of your current house rule.Let's say an NPC has an opposing level 6 fighter which is a CR 5
str 14, power attack, furious focus. +1 greatsword
2d6+4+6(power attack)+2(weapon spec). Without a crit we are doing 20 points of damage of average, which is only 1 away from your fighter's threshold. I think you should run some numbers before continuing with this one.I honestly have not read the entire draft in detail but I will try to make more comments later on.
Remember that was only a level 6 fighter that was not even optimized. By the time you get to hard hitting monsters(giants, elementals) and fighters with more power, bypassing that threshold will be pretty easy. DR 3 is what I remember heavy armor having, and that won't make much of a difference.
You did just raise the value of the vital strike feats though. With that feat the average damage just went up to 28, and giving the fighter full plate just gave him a virtual threshold of 25. The armor DR and the base HD won't go up anymore, and the fort saves don't increase as much as damage will. The threshold is fighting a losing battle.
I have been trying to do the same thing with the threshold, but I have never gotten the math to work out so it lasted, and I normally run games until about 15th level.
Remember that was only a level 6 fighter that was not even optimized. By the time you get to hard hitting monsters(giants, elementals) and fighters with more power, bypassing that threshold will be pretty easy. DR 3 is what I remember heavy armor having, and that won't make much of a difference.You did just raise the value of the vital strike feats though. With that feat the average damage just went up to 28, and giving the fighter full plate just gave him a virtual threshold of 25. The armor DR and the base HD won't go up anymore, and the fort saves don't increase as much as damage will. The threshold is fighting a losing battle.
I have been trying to do the same thing with the threshold, but I have never gotten the math to work out so it lasted, and I normally run games until about 15th level.
I agree. I'm definitely going to have to work on this. I may have a scaling Damage Threshold bonus with BAB... I'll brainstorm and get back to you.
I agree. I'm definitely going to have to work on this. I may have a scaling Damage Threshold bonus with BAB... I'll brainstorm and get back to you.
Remember that was only a level 6 fighter that was not even optimized. By the time you get to hard hitting monsters(giants, elementals) and fighters with more power, bypassing that threshold will be pretty easy. DR 3 is what I remember heavy armor having, and that won't make much of a difference.You did just raise the value of the vital strike feats though. With that feat the average damage just went up to 28, and giving the fighter full plate just gave him a virtual threshold of 25. The armor DR and the base HD won't go up anymore, and the fort saves don't increase as much as damage will. The threshold is fighting a losing battle.
I have been trying to do the same thing with the threshold, but I have never gotten the math to work out so it lasted, and I normally run games until about 15th level.
What might help if you have the information handy is to use the damage or fighter build your groups use at certain levels and reverse engineer the formula to fit your group. I would also look at the monsters you use at various levels also, and how much they tend to do based on whether or not you tweak them to be better or worse than they are in the book.
I have never DM'd for the same group twice due to people constantly moving so I don't have decent data. Hopefully your groups are more consistent than mine have been.
While I think the whole thing is a bad idea, and ill-conceived from the start, I could have been more diplomatic about it and less rude.
But someone prevented me from putting just a couple skill-ranks in diplomacy because now all our skills have to be lumped together. -.-
*ahem* Sorry.
Flexibility in character design is one of the great attractions that 3.x has over any other edition of DnD. Pushing things into the 4e realm doesn't help us 'realize plateaus' or focus on the spread of broad knowledge that we want. FURTHER compacting the skills seems like an extreme tactical mistake that will not pay out well in the long-run.
I love this option. I wanted it to work SO badly, but I played a full campaign and a short campaign with it, and it just -doesn't- fly.
DR 5/- =/= 15% less chance of being hit at all. *PARTICULARLY* when you start adding in the exceptional damage of large monsters and dedicated fighters. Worse, you now have secondary attacks that hit *MUCH* more often, and they do all the same damage as primary attacks. If I hit you for 7 damage a hit, your DR5 trumps all day... even if I do hit you four times. The problem comes when I only hit you 3 times for 35 damage a piece. Five points off each of those is still leaving you with 90 damage, and worse, it shoves you WAY over your damage cap for 'wounding' each time.
Anything with hit/debuff or hit/condition is mathematically less valuable in a game where you can automatically inflict a -1,-2,-3,-4 in a single full attack action with your new and improved TWF where the opponent can't dodge.
I try to parry. You roll better than me. You automatically do sneak attack damage. Ad nauseum. Trying to parry against anyone with sneak attack is a recipe for destruction. To wererats we say no!
I've read the data and even tried the option: Your +10 starting AC bonus is a 'passive defense', it is the average of every character's D20 roll to parry and dodge and deflect attacks. This number is automatically increased by your physical agility (+dex mod) as long as you can move fluidly and continue to defend yourself without impediment (limited by armor, penalized by grapples, stuns, etc). It's your 'flinch reflex'. I believe the option is in Unearthed Arcana or DMG 2.. but it might have even been in the original DMG.
The major point here, sadly, is this: White Wolf and Shadowrun are SLOW games. Their combat rounds can take thirty minutes to an hour. They clutter the game system with rolled mechanics that could have been sped up through automatic approximation. If you make -every single attack roll- A-Attack Roll; D-Parry Roll; A-Combat Maneuver Check; D-Combat Maneuver Defense Roll; A-Damage Roll; D-Saving Throw Against Condition, apply wound penalties and adjust all stats for conditions you're going to bog down gameplay into the realms of Exalted and V:tM and Shadowrun. All you're missing is a soak roll...
1/2. Those 'options' you give to people are powerful. They're powerful enough that the game designers have required people to take feats for them. You don't think Power Attack is powerful? Then why use it at all? Why not assume everyone is attacking just as hard as they can with the regular dice-rolls? They're also complex, and slow things down a bit. That's power-bloat and complexities that will slow down your game, without actual additional realism, all around.
3. Adding all the options together at once is an additional -two full books- worth of information. Pathfinder as it stands is already ~600 pages of tables, conditions, effects, maneuvers, options, tweaks, modifiers, and rules. Do you need to add 3-400 more?
5. Hero Points:
Sorry, somehow my mind skimmed right over that. I was imagining some kind of homebrew convocation of M&M and Eberron rules, with the sometimes mutually conflicting but completely necessary 10+ feats between the settings that allow them their full depth and usage.
6. Balance:
I don't know where people get this idea, really... Our Cavalier -keeps me alive- to do my job, which is control the battlefield to make his job a bit easier, and to let the striker, our monk archer, dispatch enemies. Yes, I can stun up to six guys at one time with a single spell if they all fail their saves or I've tweaked my saving throw into the stratosphere... But long after I've run out of zap, the fighter has lots and lots of *stab* left over. My necromancer spends a lot of encounters using his move actions to stay out of the way, and casting no more than Acid Splash and maybe one other spell. The rest of that arcane power is used for the Expert role in the party, or for neutralizing the BBEG. We hope. If they fail their saves before eviscerating our tank. Yes, spellcasters have more options in a fight than a fighter, yes it's more interesting to be able to choose between magic missile and color-spray than it is to choose between full-attack and charge, or trip and bullrush, but the tactical efforts of the fighter allow the Spellcaster to be able to contribute pretty much at all. The 'gap' isn't nearly as big as people seem to make it.
(PS. Houndmasters RULE!)
7. The Big Six:
Bracers of Armor +1: 2000gp
Bracers of Archery and Armor +1: Cost of Bracers of Archery +2000gp.
Gauntlets of Ogre Strength: 4000gp
Devastation Gauntlets: 2000gp
Devastation Gauntlets of Ogre Strength?: 6000gp
There is no additional cost for adding attributes or nat-armor, deflection bonus, or any other 'big six' enchantment to existing gear. Gloves of +2 dex, +2 str, and some other magical ability cost the same as all three separate items added together, without the usual 50% penalty. Those big six enchantments simply do not factor into the equation at all. They're *necessary* for the formulas of the game to play out, there's no reason they should count extra against CWBL (Character Wealth By Level).
8. Alignment Powers:
If alignments are not absolutes, everyone is made of all four alignments you have presented. At least partially. In every action, motivations exist for each of the four possibilities, and everyone is affected by all alignment based spells. Only 'evil' becomes a directly sensed and punished condition, and you have the lovely situation of Kore. (Read a bit from the link, the comic is worth your love and attention anyway. ;D)
Do you really want your world populated by Lawful Pragmatic Paladins who outright slaughter all those they come across with the mere taint of evil for completely selfish and utterly altruistic reasons? (I killed him because I wanted to protect the world from the spread of filth and decay.) What are you doing about spells like Desecrate and Holy Word? Since everyone is affected by all four alignments simultaneously, is everyone treated as neutral, or is everyone treated as an extreme of the alignment? If someone crosses the street to not walk past a dangerous looking half-orc, is that pragmatic? Selfish? How long does that moment of racism taint your aura?
It's an extremely nasty kettle of sloppy oysterpuses... (the magically mated aberrant spawn of oysters and octopi... Like an owlbear... or a bearshark...)
9. Ralt the Rat:
Sorry about the snarkiness. It's a natural refuge to keep me from being truly offensive. Ralt certainly sounds fun to play... and he was for about three sessions. Then it just started to get ridiculous. No one could hit me, ever. 5% of the time isn't enough damage, even with a con of 11, to threaten a PC. If the bad guys didn't focus on me, I'd sneak attack them repeatedly with flurry-of-blows. (Ascetic Rogue is a BRUTAL feat!) Everything became trivial. We knew what was coming in advance, always. I built him as an illustration of why you can't over-power dexterity, which is already well known as THE god stat. There was never even any question of whether I would build something else when I could just do escalating dice of damage as the game went on, and destroy everything we fought.
Weapon Finesse is the first in a long and arduous feat chain, and it and Agile Maneuvers exist because dexterity already adds to more skills than anything (if you count knowledges as one skill), reflex save, armor class to -everything-, initiative, and ranged attacks. It exists as a balancing gap to prevent you from getting yet more powerful feats straight on, adding that on top of your invincible destructive might.
10a. Feats:
This is extremely unbalanced. EXTREMELY. I... don't even know how to make that more clear. Yes, fighters have more interesting feat options... but they're not supposed to have them *all*, and they're not supposed to have the ones they want *at level 1*.
10b. Magic Items and Basic Economic Theory:
This isn't the economy of magic items, it's just -economics-.
If Wally the Wizard can make a +1 sword for 1000gp, he doesn't sell it for 1000gp. He had to spend twelve years as an apprentice to a stinky old man with parmesean cheese feet to learn to do magic, then he had to adventure for a while to put his practical theory in motion, then when he had finally mastered his first fireball, he was able to unlock the mysteries of enchantment. For all that hassle, he charges DOUBLE what it costs to make the sword, or, roughly, 10,000 days labor for the common man. (This is literal. The common laborer makes 1sp a day.) Normal people selling mundane gear tend to charge THREE times what the item is worth, but he had some serious trouble selling a +1 sword to a guy for 3 gees. So generously, he cuts his profits in half.
Wally is content to make +1 swords for a while, and rake in the cash from novice adventurers but... lo and behold... some fighter figures out that he can do it WITHOUT WALLY!
Fighter Frank blinks, looks down at his new masterwork sword and goes... "You know... if I got some gorgon urine from the market... and maybe a basilisk eyeball for a pommel gem... I could make this sucker magical!" so he goes down and makes his OWN magic sword for 1000gp.
Suddenly, Wally can't complete his spell research, because low level adventurers aren't showing up to his house anymore to buy his wares. He goes out to find out why... and discovers that Fighter Frank, that economy wrecking basss.. uhh... entrepreneur has SHARED THE SECRETS OF THE MYSTERIES OF THE UNIVERSE WITH EVERY ARAGORN, LEGOLAS, AND GIMLI HE HAS EVER MET! Everyone can now make magical weapons, what is Wally to do? Well... of course... Wally can lower his prices and sell his +1 swords to -really low level adventurers-! It's the only way to compete! Given that it costs him 1000gp to make the weapon, and one week of work, he can, at bare minimum, charge 1320.7gp. Who is willing to go closest to this mark? That's the guy that sells the most +1 swords.
(1000gp magic +1, 300gp masterwork, 20gp sword, 7sp for one weeks labor)
Won't someone think of Wally? Poor Wally in his shabby tower, just trying to research a spell to instantly dry laundry and dishes over the square mileage of his town? And what about Wally's familiar? Cat food isn't free you know!
11. Bad, Bad, GM. No Cookies!:
None at all! *lash lash lash* Sorry. I just need to point out another little mathematical snafu here.
Wraith-Stalking Shirt: 6000gp (3000gp with Craft: Leatherworking) gives you Hide From Undead at will. With no save. CL10 (or ten ranks of Craft: Leatherworking.)
Sepulchral Vest: 2000gp (3000gp to add to your Wraith Stalking Shirt, or 1500gp to add if you have 6 ranks of Craft: Leatherworking.) +5 SACRED bonus (stacks with resistance gear) to saves against any effect generated by an undead creature for 1 round as an immediate action, three times per day. (CL6.)
Shirt of the Inevitable: 15k, DR3/Chaotic. CL14.
Shirt of the Leech: 8k, steals healing spells of L4 or lower 3/day. CL11.
Stacking these all together: 15+12+3+9=39,000gp to have these all in the same slot, with a CL of 14. OR: 15+8+2+6=31,000gp to wear them one over another, for a measly -3 armor penalty that doesn't even interfere with spellcasting? Worse, for another 4k you stack them into two items, reducing the penalty to 1 and allowing you to add whole new items on top! Add that vest of the master evoker on, anyone? Another 5k you didn't have to pay...
Wearing only TWO magic items in the same slot is an epic feat. CWBL exists because it directly affects the CR of the character. You should never be more than a full level ahead or behind. Replacing that with 'extra abilities' instead is all well and good... but what happened to customization and choice?
12. Iterative Attacks:
So a squid jets up and hits you with one tentacle, while a high level monk flounces over and punches you six times? Uhhhh... Okay. I guess dragons now want to fly up to you with FlyBy Attack and bite you four times instead of biting you once? How does this interact with Whirlwind Attack? This is gamebreaking in the direction of granting enormous power to humanoids, and should scare the *PANTS* off of spellcasters. A free move action every round is worth ~50k gp. Let's not even get into the additional gamebreaking terror of haste.
You do know that a fighter is more dangerous than a Disintegrate spell, right? Disintegrate is a single attack that (if it hits AND the target fails the save) can deal over 100 points of damage (30d6=avg 105dmg). A fighter moves up to the target (at level 12) and hits every time for 2d6+1d6+1d6+20 damage. An average of 34dmg per hit before DR. Easily. Without critical hits (8% of all hits or so will be criticals with a greatsword, rising to ~15% for a measly 2dmg with a falchion). A fighter does this -every single round no matter what-, while a wizard does it once per day at L12. The wizard may dominate a monster IF they fail the save... the fighter is pretty close to guaranteed to destroying a level +1 solo creature in three rounds of full attacks.
13. Quotes and Ammo:
You said Imagination in your original document. I was teasing you. ;p
Ammunition is an expendable magic item. If ammo can't be broken without an intentional sunder attempt, each arrow should cost 2000gp just like each sword does. If you don't want ammunition to be expendable, what about other previously expendable items, like scrolls? Why do casters get no love in your system? Casters get by the book rules except for weapon finesse (yay, weapon finesse (touch)!), while Rangers get all that and a bag of chips?
How can you not see the massive unfairness and bias in this system? Monks are going to be frankly unkillable, while other melee classes suffer from lowered armor class, and everyone deals so much extra damage it ignores their damage reduction.
Did you not notice that the AC penalty for the DR buff quickly allows Power Attack users to completely ignore the DR?
I can offer very little in the way of construction with my criticism in these posts, and I'm sorry... But taken as a whole, this system is what after 23 years of gaming I would call 'Broke'.
Please, play five games with it, and let me know how it went. Supply play-by-play examples and take note of the Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, and Fighter you run in your party. If you have a couple of specific questions on specific issues with the rule you're using, I might be able to offer something more useful, but as it stands, all I see are huge, screaming, glaring issues. If you have FUN with it, more power to you, but I foresee hurt feelings, arguments over vague or inconsistent calls, and 500 hours of playtest in your future.
I hope some of this clears up what I was deriding earlier, but please don't take this as an offense. There are a -lot- of over-eager novice mistakes here that need to be cleaned up before these are playable. Pathfinder as it stands is a streamlined, elegant, cherry-picking system that allows you to tailor and tweak your character concepts into a somewhat realistic and fairly portrayed build of stats and abilities. I can't help but feeling like the changes you're making are a lot like adding two new pieces to chess: The Giant Anime Robot, and Royal Assassin, who get to use different movement rules every turn, and can make line attacks. The ramifications of the changes to gameplay haven't been thought out, and haven't been tested, and the result is a bunch of lofty, interesting sounding ideas, that collapse under their own weight in practice. You just need to take a step back, look at WHY each piece is the way it is in the system, and then decide on how far-reaching your changes want to be in the end.
Start with a goal.
End with the goal in hand.
STOP before you go too far.
Now stop making me look bad by having such good manners!
>.<
While I think the whole thing is a bad idea, and ill-conceived from the start, I could have been more diplomatic about it and less rude.
Thanks for replying again, I appreciate the time you spent in critique.
1
Skills:Flexibility in character design is one of the great attractions that 3.x has over any other edition of DnD. Pushing things into the 4e realm doesn't help us 'realize plateaus' or focus on the spread of broad knowledge that we want. FURTHER compacting the skills seems like an extreme tactical mistake that will not pay out well in the long-run.
And would not have you said the same thing had someone said to you in 2003, "Hey I'm making a 3.5-style game under OGL, and the skills have changed; especially Spot, Search and Listen, they're all under Perception now"?
My point is that streamlining skills is not a bad thing. I do agree, however, that right now my system itself is not as elegant as it certainly could be, and does weaken characters overall. I'll work on some changes and post them in this thread when I do.
2
Armor as DR:I love this option. I wanted it to work SO badly, but I played a full campaign and a short campaign with it, and it just -doesn't- fly.DR 5/- =/= 15% less chance of being hit at all. *PARTICULARLY* when you start adding in the exceptional damage of large monsters and dedicated fighters. Worse, you now have secondary attacks that hit *MUCH* more often, and they do all the same damage as primary attacks. If I hit you for 7 damage a hit, your DR5 trumps all day... even if I do hit you four times. The problem comes when I only hit you 3 times for 35 damage a piece. Five points off each of those is still leaving you with 90 damage, and worse, it shoves you WAY over your damage cap for 'wounding' each time.
You've rolled a couple of things here into a single comment, so I'll answer one by one again.
- I'll look over the hit/damage ratio using the Bestiary monster statistics tables and let you know how the math turns out- I agree this could be very deadly. I am alright with that. Some people aren't, I'm sure.
- I am considering just adding a DR value to armor without lessening AC bonus. That way I might be able to both have and eat this cake. That will lengthen fights thought, and boost effective HP across the board...
Anyway, you bring up good points about this one. I'll look into it to see how it'll affect game balance and try to make it work.
3
Wound Penalties:
Anything with hit/debuff or hit/condition is mathematically less valuable in a game where you can automatically inflict a -1,-2,-3,-4 in a single full attack action with your new and improved TWF where the opponent can't dodge.
A good point, and one which I will look into. Damage Threshold rules have been changed, by the way. I will post changes later in this thread.
If you're talking about debuff spells, than this change allows all characters the power to debuff, rather than just a few. That may not be to your liking, but I'm working towards balance, not universal adoration. Your help is valuable to get this there.4
Parrying in General ... That's power-bloat and complexities that will slow down your game, without actual additional realism, all around.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I am very happy with this rule, and almost consider it to be in its final stage. I am not unhappy with more rules, if they are entirely optional per character, as these are. In terms o the face-stabbing sneak attack... well yeah, that's a risk that some characters would face if they failed to parry. Not everyone will parry, and even if they do, they would not always fail, and the person they fail against would not always be a rogue. But that is a risk they would take.
5
I don't know where people get this idea, really... The 'gap' isn't nearly as big as people seem to make it.
This particular theory-craft has been around for ages now, and I really don't want to get into it here, lest I draw in someone like Man in Black or another of the forum trolls. Also, others have explained and theory'd it more effectively than I.
So, in answer to this point; agree to disagree. All classes have their use, but to me, arcane power is just more 'effective'. Neither of us is right or wrong, I think, but we see the game in different ways.There are some good discussions about this on the WoTC forums, especially their 'class tier' systems.
6
The Big Six
I'm throwing out Wealth By Level. It no longer exists in my games. Characters will get their Big Six automatically, and anything else is just a lucky drop or plot-based magic. Wondrous items will still be round --not for purchase-- but instead for finding in tombs and god-holds. I'm trying to put the flair back into magic, rather than just a dollar value.
I know that the cost of +n enchantment is free to add into existing items (on top of the cost of that enchantment) but if I remove them from the game altogether (and also from the CWBL) then nothing has been lost overall; characters are 'spending' the virtual money they never had to get the bonus they need, by the rules, without ever going to the hassle of spending it.7
Alignment Powers:
If alignments are not absolutes, everyone is made of all four alignments you have presented. At least partially. In every action, motivations exist for each of the four possibilities, and everyone is affected by all alignment based spells. Only 'evil' becomes a directly sensed and punished condition.
Do you really want your world populated by Lawful Pragmatic Paladins who outright slaughter all those they come across with the mere taint of evil for completely selfish and utterly altruistic reasons? (I killed him because I wanted to protect the world from the spread of filth and decay.) What are you doing about spells like Desecrate and Holy Word?How long does that moment of racism taint your aura?
Yes, everyone will be made up of those partial alignments. That is true already will all characters. This is a flavor choice; lack of alignment in games does work -- I believe both Eberron and the Iron Kingdoms have rules to the effect.
The Paladin in your example will probably have other paladins chasing him down in turn (but I will point out that selfishness and altruism are antonyms). Paladins of any system face this problem, because the Good/Evil axis is so artificial that it shackles Lawful Good from actually making any pertinent decisions beyond killing bad things. I'm just trying to get rid of that.Actions taint your aura for a time that is decided by your GM. It's plot-use mechanics. That racist will probably be tainted for a few minutes by that action.
Desecrate and Holy Word affect the aura of a thing, which, by old rules, is just a slightly more transient version of the old alignments.
8
Ralt the Rat
I agree that Dexterity is amazing -- why shouldn't everyone have it then? If being Dexterous is so good, why not let it be something available to all things? Strength for hitting hard, Dexterity for hitting accurately -- that's what my houserules try to emulate.
My other point is that Ralt the Rat is possible whether or not the Finesse feats are free; it just takes a few more feats in the standard rules.9
Feats:
This is extremely unbalanced. EXTREMELY. I... don't even know how to make that more clear. Yes, fighters have more interesting feat options... but they're not supposed to have them *all*, and they're not supposed to have the ones they want *at level 1*.
The difference between having these feats for free at 1 and not is the same mechanical mathematical difference as a 15 point buy and a 25 point buy for stats. One just gets gets to hit harder because of the way that world works. If Power Attack, the "must have" martial feat, is free, then it just grants one more feat on the top end because everyone is taking it anyway -- it's the "must have".
I don't believe that it is unbalanced. I know you do. Please provide some sort of rule reference or argument if you want to convince me, because just telling me what you think isn't effective. I feel like what you're saying is just "fighters don't get nice things", even thoug I'm really trying hard not to, honestly.10
Magic Items and Basic Economic Theory
Hehehe, ok, this one is just funny. You are proposing magical monopoly, and I am gunning for a mundane free market. We might have to agree to disagree on this one.
11
Stacking woes
You're right, the stacking was a bad idea. It will be removed.
12
Iterative Attacks:
So a squid jets up and hits you with one tentacle, while a high level monk flounces over and punches you six times? Uhhhh... Okay. I guess dragons now want to fly up to you with FlyBy Attack and bite you four times instead of biting you once? How does this interact with Whirlwind Attack? Let's not even get into the additional gamebreaking terror of haste.
You do know that a fighter is more dangerous than a Disintegrate spell, right?
Those examples are not possible in my rules, because those extra attacks are not ones granted by a high BAB; they are secondary natural attacks that cannot be made in my rules. Only primary attacks can be made in the "pounce rule". BAB-based iterative attacks are all primary. The squid could hit perhaps twice if it had a middling HD. The monk is now allowed to flurry at the end of a charge -- why should he not be able to? It's not going to break the game, considering how game-ineffective the monk is otherwise. (Sorry to all the monks out there.) The dragon can only make a bite (or two, like the squid) on his flyby, because the rest of his attacks are secondary. A Bestiary-standard dragon is weaker than a feat-optimized dragon, but the feat-optimized dragon is just as powerful as one under my rules.
13
Quotes and Ammo: (You said Imagination in your original document. I was teasing you. ;p )
Ammunition is an expendable magic item. If ammo can't be broken without an intentional sunder attempt, each arrow should cost 2000gp just like each sword does. If you don't want ammunition to be expendable, what about other previously expendable items, like scrolls?
Thanks for the proof-read, I missed that word :P .
Magical ammunition costs money, yes. But as I am throwing out the CWBL rules, it's hard to pay for magical ammunition all the time. Plus, it implies Magic Mart rules, for which I have a great distaste. If this rule is put into place, this puts magical ammunition on the same level as magical weapons, yes. That's because it is one. I will change the price of magical ammunition to reflect this change, as you suggest, but because I'm throwing out a lot of the magical money mart that the rules require in some ways, it may not be a big change at all. I'll let you know how this works out in-game.Other expendable items are still expendable, because they are not weapon. That's really the only reason I can give you. I'll consider some form of permanence in other areas.
As to why casters don't get any love: they're magical. They don't need it, they can summon their own. Magic is the most powerful thing in this game system, overshadowing anything else, and so I'm trying to maybe bring some love to martial characters because I feel that they need it. You may disagree with me, but this is the reason why these changes have been made.
14
Start with a goal.
End with the goal in hand.
STOP before you go too far.
An excellent suggestion, which is why I brought these rules here, for help and critique. I'll come back with playtest results as soon as possible.
PurpleFixer made a lot of good points.
The game works fine as is for most groups. If you have issues with your group you may need houserules. What I would suggest doing first though is to cite what is breaking your game in actual play. These things can normally be fixed without changing rules. If these are only problems in theory we may be able to find a solution before the theory becomes real.
I would also change one rule at a time, and not attempt a massive overhual all at once. That way if things get worse you know what the issue was. It is easier to fix one mistake than it is to fix 10.
And would not have you said the same thing had someone said to you in 2003, "Hey I'm making a 3.5-style game under OGL, and the skills have changed; especially Spot, Search and Listen, they're all under Perception now"?
My point is that streamlining skills is not a bad thing. I do agree, however, that right now my system itself is not as elegant as it certainly could be, and does weaken characters overall. I'll work on some changes and post them in this thread when I do.
One of the benefits of being skilled classed is that you get more skills. If you consolidate them more then their benefit is taken away. Every class should have things it does better than other or else it ceases to be unique.
. That may not be to your liking, but I'm working towards balance, not universal adoration. Your help is valuable to get this there.
What exactly do you mean by balanced? The classes are not meant to be balanced against each other. They can't ever really be balanced withing the current system. What matters in the end is that everyone has something to do that makes that class fun.
Once again I think it is better to go after specific issues than make broad sweeping changes. You should also talk to you players about this, and if they have the same concerns you do then I would voice them here. There have been a lot of people here with similar issues that made progress without such wide changes.As far as parrying it will immensely slow the game down as you get to higher levels. It is also not in the defender's favor statistically. I would rather take the hit than parry and possibly become flat-foot which makes me easier to hit for the next attack. It might be fun for fluff, but mechanically it does not help.
Don't get pulled into theorycraft. It often never shows up in a real game. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Playstyle is the biggest determinator of how a game goes. There is a potential gap, but the gap only shows when you have certain players. There are also player tiers, and that matters a lot more than class tiers. If you have a top tier player with a fighter, and a lower tier player with a caster the fighter will be more effective. The class tiers are based on the theory that all the players are perfectly equal in optimization. I have never seen it.
I have often pondered dropping weapon finesse myself.
The fighter is fine. Even as it is now it can master two fighting style such as TWF and archery over the course of its career.
I do think the magic item stacking is a bad idea.
Why is pounce there for a THF(two handed fighter), but not TWF. I ask because TWF fighter don't generally perform as well as THF fighters. I also think this is a bad idea. I can see the flying dragon killing the party easily. What reason does it have to ever reach the ground. Any melee opponent that has reach would benefit from this if they can fly. I am sure there are some other things that can cause issues.
PurpleFixer made a lot of good points.
The game works fine as is for most groups. If you have issues with your group you may need houserules. What I would suggest doing first though is to cite what is breaking your game in actual play. These things can normally be fixed without changing rules. If these are only problems in theory we may be able to find a solution before the theory becomes real.
I would also change one rule at a time, and not attempt a massive overhual all at once. That way if things get worse you know what the issue was. It is easier to fix one mistake than it is to fix 10.
Playtesting begins next week. New rules will be implemented per week, and I will return with results!
FOR SCIENCE!!!
PurpleFixer made a lot of good points.
The game works fine as is for most groups. If you have issues with your group you may need houserules. What I would suggest doing first though is to cite what is breaking your game in actual play. These things can normally be fixed without changing rules. If these are only problems in theory we may be able to find a solution before the theory becomes real.
I would also change one rule at a time, and not attempt a massive overhual all at once. That way if things get worse you know what the issue was. It is easier to fix one mistake than it is to fix 10.
Playtesting begins next week. New rules will be implemented per week, and I will return with results!
FOR SCIENCE!!!
I would suggest doing the playtest after you do the math. It might save you a lot of time. If there are any rules that don't involve math well I guess you might have to do it the hard way.
When you post the result you should list an example of a problem you had before your rule that actually occurred in game, and then say how the rule solved the problem.
I would also list the how you thought the rule would play out, and how it actually worked.
Recreating a past situation is the best way to do this.
i'm liking that there is a discussion on this and there is work being put into it, i will probably check in periodically
REVISIONS
Only section with changes will be listed. Changes will be italicized.
Damage Threshold
- This statistic is equal to the character's total Fortitude save, twice their character level(or Hit Die), and the face value of their greatest hit-die. For example, Greg the Fighter (Human Fighter 6) has a damage threshold of 27; 5 from his fortitude save, 12 from his level, and 10 from his hit-die value. Levin the Wizard (Elf Wizard 6) has a damage threshold of 20; 2 from his save, 12 from his level, and 6 from his hit-die.
This change increases the damage threshold of melee characters to be higher than high-level average damage of an enemy with a CR equal to their level. Characters with lower damage thresholds find it is now higher than the low-level average damage of an enemy with a CR equal to their level. This rule, overall, will make lower-CR encounters as dangerous a high-CR encounters, as a condition penalty (injury) will become the focus of what to fear, rather than HP damage.
This information can be found hereSkill Rules
- Craft and Profession are now class skills for all classes.- New System: Upon character creation characters choose a number of skills to be trained in. These skills must be selected from that characters Class Skills. This number is equal to the amount of skill ranks available to the character at their level first level.
- If a character has more skill choices available than class skills, they may choose as many trained skills as they have excess ranks to receive a +3 bonus to, as if they had chosen the Skill Focus feat.
- A character also has the choice, upon creation, to spend a second point to gain Skill Focus in a trained skill (as if they had more ranks than class skills).
- All class skills, whether or not the character has trained in that skill, gain a +3 class bonus to skill checks.
- For example, Greg the Fighter, with an intelligence of 12, chooses 5 skills from his class skills to become trained in them. They become his trained skills. If Greg gained greater Intelligence, and another point of modifier, he would choose another class skill to become a trained skill. All of his class skills have a +3 class bonus to them, whether or not has has trained in that skill.
- Skill checks: If the skill is a trained skill, the check is 1d20 + character level + relevant skill modifier + other modifiers (such as items, etc.). If the skill is not a trained skill, they roll with 1d20 + half character level (rounded down, minimum 1) + relevant skill modifier + other modifiers. Taking a 10 and taking a 20 still exist. Here they are again, for clarity:
- Trained class: d20 + character level + 3 +ability + other
- Untrained class: d20 + half-level + 3 + ability + other
- Untrained non-class: d20 + half-level + ability + other- Some skills checks cannot be made if it is not a class skill. Characters with these restricted skills as class skills may make a check without having trained in the skill.
- These restricted skills are:
- Disable Device
- Handle Animal
- Knowledge skills (except Local, if your character is from or has adventured extensively in the area)
- Linguistics
- Spellcraft- A character must have these skills as one of their class skills in order to make a check for it, otherwise the character must make an improvised roll at a -10 penalty. If a character has a different trained skill that they and the GM agree is relevant to the check (such as Knowledge (Arcana) for a Spellcraft check), they may substitute that skill for the proper skill, at a -5 penalty. They cannot take a 10 or 20 on this check.
This change is in regard to poster enrious' suggestions. Characters will now be more able than their Pathfinder Core counterparts in all of their class skills, while still being able to roll for any skill on the fly, without having assigned ranks to it.
Explanation for Free Feats
- Weapon Finesse is a free option because finesse-based characters should not be penalized. It should be seen as at least as viable as strength for a melee character.
- Agile Maneuvers for the same reason as above.
- Power Attack is a free option because it has both a bonus and a penalty, much like the free option Fighting Defensively. It is also a "must-have" feat, and so, if everyone is taking it already, what is the harm in giving it to everyone for free? (Has now been changed to the Pathfinder Core feat, rather than 3.5 version)
- Deadly Aim is a free option for the same reasons as Power Attack.
- Combat Expertise is now a free option because it will open up combat options for all characters, and is an option with a clear benefit and penalty.
- Lunge is now a free option because the feat itself is balanced, and has enough of a penalty to offset the situational bonus. All creatures have this ability, and so I believe this will lead to more diverse combats.
- The most basic rule that I have when I looking at these is to ask myself if they are breaking the action economy of the battle. If they are, I would be reluctant to add them. However, because they are all penalty-for-bonus trade feats, I will allow them. The action economy is preserved, no matter what feat is used.
Magic
Nothing stacks in the same slot. That, I admit, was a shortsighted notion. Derp.
Iterative Attacks
Entirely new:
- At any point where you gain enough BAB to have multiple, iterative attacks, your character may now move an extra 5 feet during a full-round action to attack. This effectively extends the length of a characters 5 foot step by 5 feet again, every time they gain another iterative attack from BAB.
Trying to tone down the Pounce problem, while at the same time lessening reliance on a static full-attacking position for melee characters. This is now the entirety of that house-rule.
Armor as DR has been removed until further math-craft and play-testing has occurred.
Thanks for reading.
I'll post it again so you can take a look. I went over the language a bit to make it simpler.
- To put it another way, a character's trained skills represent a subset of that character's class skills. If you select a second class, you do not gain new trained skills. Instead, your list of class skills expands to include those of the new class. You may select a single class skill from your newly expanded skill list to become a trained skill. This new trained skill must be from the class skills of your new class. If you take the Skill Training feat, you may choose a new trained skill from your expanded list of class skills.
- A character also has the choice, upon creation, to spend a second point on a trained skill to gain Skill Focus in that skill.
- When a character makes a skill check with any class skill, whether or not it is trained, they gain a +3 class bonus to the check. This represents the character's basic training in their class' abilities, even if they did not specifically train in that skill.
- Making a skill check: characters can roll a skill check with any skill they desire (except for a few, mentioned below). To make a skill check with a trained skill, roll:
- 1d20 + character level + 3 class + ability + other modifiers
- If it is an untrained class skill, you only add half of your character level, rather than all of it. If it is an untrained, non-class skill, you remove the +3 class bonus as well.
- To put it another way, there are three types of skills: trained, class, and untrained. Trained skills have the full bonus of character level and +3 class bonus. Class skills one have half of the character level and a +3 class bonus. Untrained skills, outside of the class skills, add only half of the character's level.
- Some skills checks cannot be made if it is not a class skill. Characters may make skill checks with these skills untrained, if it is a class skill.
- These restricted skills are:
- Disable Device
- Handle Animal
- Knowledge skills (except Local, if your character is from or has adventured extensively in the area)
- Linguistics
- Spellcraft
- Taking the skill Linguistics as a trained skill grants as many bonus languages to a character equal to the value of their Intelligence modifier, if positive, and an additional language every two character levels. This is in addition to any starting languages the character may have. If they have no, or a negative, Intelligence modifier, they may choose a single language to learn in addition to their starting languages every two character levels.
- Characters may take the feat Skill Training: "Choose one untrained skill from your class skill list. You may now consider that skill a trained skill. This feat may be taken as many times as a character has untrained class skills."
I this way they characters are always good at their trained skills (equaling their core counterparts), passable at class skills (equal to core classes who are spreading out skill ranks) and can still attempt non-class skills (outranking core here).
The reason this system is easier is that all a player has to do is put a +3 next to their class skills, and a check-mark on their trained skills. Add whole level if trained, half if not. Easy.
How is that simpler than, "you have x points. Spend a point on a class skill, get points + 3 + mod. Spend a point on a non-class skill and get points + mod. The most points you can put in are equal to your character level. Oh, some won't work unless you put any points in 'em."
"You have x choices. Choose a class skill to train, get level + 3 + mod. Didn't train a class skill? Half-level + 3 +mod. If its not a class skill, its half-level + mod."
I'll post it again so you can take a look. I went over the language a bit to make it simpler.
** spoiler omitted **...
Ah, for a sec I was a lil confused.
Kilbourne:
I see that this allows every character is able to do something without being punished for not putting any (or little) points in some skills which they may end up using later.
At least the half level bonus allows then to use untrained non-class skills that with some measure of incremental success against incremental challenges through the levels. The disparity between half level and full level bonuses from trained skills would only grow larger at highter levels :D Not exactly a bad thing :p
Although, class skills in retrospect seem like only a small bump up (good at low levels, slightly negligible at higher levels).
I kinda like it :D Though initially for some reason I thought we could skill add skill ranks to it as the character levels up.
Enrious:
HMmm, I think I get it.
You have to choose trained skills (from class and non-class) early in character creation to determine your subset of skills youre realy good at. Then as you level up, pick up more trained skills.
This may lead to a same-ness and build across the board for a lot of characters. Two clerics would rarely differ in their choice at character creation with only a handful of other skills to train from as htey level up. Thus, giving up more breadth of customization in general from their skills.
---
I guess for me, it depends on how much your group enjoys skill challenges / skill rolls. It could be more intuitive for some groups and more time-saving (less book-keeping)for another.
---
Aah! Doppelgangar!
Aah! Doppelgangar!
Gasp!
*attempts to poke Kb's eyes out with pointy fingers*Runs! ... and raspberries
Look forward to your playtest results! ^.^
Remember that PC wealth as written factors into the basic CR of the party (Underequipped -1, Properly Equipped (even), Over Equipped +1). If your system approximates that, it should stand up well. But with the changes to the combat system, there's no telling what kinds of ripples that will create in the equations.
We never tried altering the Armor/DR rule to use BOTH. Doesn't that extremely unfairly bias against the light-armor/no-armor restricted classes?
Remember that PC wealth as written factors into the basic CR of the party (Underequipped -1, Properly Equipped (even), Over Equipped +1). If your system approximates that, it should stand up well. But with the changes to the combat system, there's no telling what kinds of ripples that will create in the equations.
I'm hoping that by making it a regular progression from a table, to have the wealth of the party remain CR equal, that it will become a controlled variable within the playtest.
I also, as I mentioned before, just don't like or understand Magic Mart style of item acquisition.
We never tried altering the Armor/DR rule to use BOTH. Doesn't that extremely unfairly bias against the light-armor/no-armor restricted classes?
It may; I'm see where you're coming from, and I agree that it is possible. Keep this test separate from the others, so that it doesn't influence the parry and damage threshold results.
Unless I'm missing something, the only way you can do that is to spend one feat to make one skill trained.Ouch.
I know that you feel like this will homogenize characters, so I'll do a comparison for you. I'm going to stat out the skill blocks of your Rogue/Master Spy, at 10th level, in my skill system and your skill system. (I'm sorry, I don't know how to optimize rogue skills, but I'll do my best -- hopefully the intent comes through).
I'll then do the same for a fighter of the same level. Stat blocks are, assuming all racial and enhancement added: 20, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10.
RANDLE THE CORE ROGUE
Rogue 7, Master Spy 3
Str 10 (0)
Dex 20 (5)
Con 10 (0)
Int 14 (2)
Wis 12 (1)
Cha 12 (1)
Skill points available: 56 from Rogue, 18 from Master Spy, and 20 from Intelligence = 94.
Acrobatics: 18 = [10 ranks + 3 class + 5 ability]
Appraise: 6 = [1 rank + 3 class + 2 ability]
Bluff: 14 = [10 ranks + 3 class + 1 ability]
Climb: 4 = [1 rank + 3 class + 0 ability]
Craft: 6 = [1 rank + 3 class + 2 ability]
Diplomacy: 14 = [10 ranks + 3 class + 1 ability]
Disable Device: 18 = [10 ranks + 3 class + 5 ability]
Disguise: 14 = [10 ranks + 3 class + 1 ability]
Escape Artist: 12 = [4 ranks + 3 class + 5 ability]
Fly: 5 = [5 ability]
Handle Animal: X = trained only
Heal: 1 = [1 ability]
Intimidate: 6 = [2 ranks + 3 class + 1 ability]
Knowledge (Arcana): X= trained only
...(Dungeoneering): 6 = [1 rank + 3 class + 2 ability]
...(Engineering): X= trained only
...(Geography): X= trained only
...(History): X= trained only
...(Local): 7 = [2 rank + 3 class + 2 ability]
...(Nature): X= trained only
...(Nobility): X= trained only
...(Planes): X= trained only
...(Religion): X= trained only
Linguistics: X= trained only
Perception: 14 = [10 ranks + 3 class + 1 ability]
Perform: 1 = [1 ability]
Profession: 5 = [1 rank + 3 class + 1 ability]
Ride: 5 = [5 ability]
Sense Motive: 1 = [1 ability]
Sleight of Hand: 9 = [1 rank + 3 class + 5 ability]
Spellcraft: X= trained only
Stealth: 18 = [10 ranks + 3 class + 5 ability]
Survival: 1= 1 ability
Swim: 0= 0 ability
Use Magic Device: 14 = [10 ranks + 3 class + 1 ability]
RICKARD THE REVISED ROGUE
Rogue 7, Master Spy 3
Str 10 (0)
Dex 20 (5)
Con 10 (0)
Int 14 (2)
Wis 12 (1)
Cha 12 (1)
Rickard selected 10 skills (8+int) to be trained in at first level, and an 11th when he gained a level in a new class (Master Spy PrC). Remember that some skills have been streamlined, and that trained skills add their full level, and untrained add only half.
Acrobatics: 18= [trained + 3 class + 5 ability]
Athletics: 13= [trained + 3 class + 0 ability]
Bluff: 14= [trained + 3 class + 1 ability]
Craft: 10= [3 class + 2 ability]
Diplomacy: 14= [trained + 3 class + 1 ability]
Disable Device: 18= [trained + 3 class + 5 ability]
Disguise: 14= [trained + 3 class + 1 ability]
Fly: 10= [5 ability]
Handle Animal: X = [class only]
Heal: 6= [1 ability]
Intimidate: 14= [trained + 3 class + 1 ability]
Knowledge (Arcana): 10= [3 class + 2 ability]
...(Dungeoneering): 10= [3 class + 2 ability]
...(Engineering): 10= [3 class + 2 ability]
...(Geography): 10= [3 class + 2 ability]
...(History): 15= [trained + 3 class + 2 ability]
...(Local): 10= [3 class + 2 ability]
...(Nature): 10= [3 class + 2 ability]
...(Religion): 10= [3 class + 2 ability]
Linguistics: 10= [3 class + 2 ability]
Perception: 14= [trained + 3 class + 1 ability]
Perform: 9= [3 class + 1 ability]
Profession: 10= [3 class + 2 ability]
Ride: 10= [5 ability]
Sense Motive: 9= [3 class + 1 ability]
Sleight of Hand: 18= [trained + 3 class + 5 ability]
Spellcraft: X= [class only]
Stealth: 18= [trained + 3 class + 5 ability]
Survival: 6= [1 ability]
As you can see, the revised rules allow characters to be good at everything their character can do, and just as good (if not better) as a core rules character, at they things they need to be good at.
I'll admit there is less flexibility for gaining new trained skills, but considering all of your class skills have a +3 class bonus to them, whether or not you trained them, it should be fine. Let me know what you think.
FRED THE CORE FIGHTER
Fighter 10
Str 20 (5)
Dex 12 (1)
Con 14 (2)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 12 (1)
Cha 10 (0)
Skill points available: 20 from Fighter and 0 from Intelligence = 20.
Acrobatics: 1 = [1 ability]
Appraise: 1 = [1 ability]
Bluff: 0 = [0 ability]
Climb: 10 = [5 rank + 5 ability]
Craft: 1 = [1 rank + 0 ability]
Diplomacy: 0 = [0 ability]
Disable Device: X = [trained only]
Disguise: 0 = [0 ability]
Escape Artist: 1 = [1 ability]
Fly: 1 = [1 ability]
Handle Animal: X = [trained only]
Heal: 1 = [1 ability]
Intimidate: 0 = [0 ability]
Knowledge (Arcana): X = [trained only]
...(Dungeoneering): 1 = [1 rank + 0 ability]
...(Engineering): X = [trained only]
...(Geography): X = [trained only]
...(History): X = [trained only]
...(Local): X = [trained only]
...(Nature): X = [trained only]
...(Nobility): X = [trained only]
...(Planes): X = [trained only]
...(Religion): X = [trained only]
Linguistics: X = [trained only]
Perception: 6 = [5 rank + 1 ability]
Perform: 0 = [0 ability]
Profession: 1 = [1 rank + 0 ability]
Ride: 2 = [2 ability]
Sense Motive: 1 = [1 ability]
Sleight of Hand: X = [trained only]
Spellcraft: X = [trained only]
Stealth: 3 = [1 rank + 2 ability]
Survival: 2 = [1 rank + 1 ability]
Swim: 10 = [5 rank + 5 ability]
Use Magic Device: X = [trained only]
FRANK THE REVISED FIGHTER
Fighter 10
Str 20 (5)
Dex 12 (1)
Con 14 (2)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 12 (1)
Cha 10 (0)
Frank selected 4 skills to be trained in at first level, from his class skills.
Acrobatics: 7= [2 ability]
Athletics: 13= [trained + 3 class]
Bluff: 5= [0 ability]
Craft: 8= [3 class + 0 ability]
Diplomacy: 5= [0 ability]
Disable Device: X= [class only]
Disguise: 5= [0 ability]
Fly: 7= [2 ability]
Handle Animal: 8= [3 class + 0 ability]
Heal: 5= [0 ability]
Intimidate: 8= [3 class + 0 ability]
Knowledge (Arcana): X= [class only]
...(Dungeoneering): [b13][/b]= [trained + 3 class + 0 ability]
...(Engineering): 8= [3 class + 0 ability]
...(Geography): X= [class only]
...(History): X= [class only]
...(Local): X= [class only]
...(Nature): X= [class only]
...(Religion): X= [class only]
Linguistics: X= [class only]
Perception: 6= [1 ability]
Perform: 5= [0 ability]
Profession: 9= [3 class + 1 ability]
Ride: 15= [trained + 3 class + 2 ability]
Sense Motive: 6= [1 ability]
Sleight of Hand: X= [class only]
Spellcraft: X= [class only]
Stealth: 7= [2 ability]
Survival: 14= [trained + 3 class + 1 ability]
My fighter ends up being more able than the core overall, even though he is restricted to training only his class skills. Even if he never trained a skill, and it's not a class skill, there's still a good chance that he'll be able to perform as well as a trained character half his level.
I know that you feel like this is the worst system ever,I'd appreciate it if in the future you didn't put words in my mouth, especially when it's not a sentiment I agree with.
Thus far, I see an increase in uniformity of characters, which if your goal is to have more cookie-cutter characters, that's fine.
And thus a downside to customization and creativity.
At the end of the day, I think this system is no improvement over the core on and I'd rate it worse.
But that doesn't mean I think it's the "worst system ever".
Good luck with it.
Sorry; edited.