One of my fellow players asked me tonight if the following was possible:
Use the Leadership feat to get a bunch of magic item crafting followers. Have them work on creating magical items in eight hour shifts, effectively getting 3-6,000gp worth of crafting done every day.
We know an individual can't craft more than eight hours at a time, but is there anything preventing multiple people from attempting the above?
Id insist that they would all need the 'Cooperative Crafting' Feat
Prerequisites: 1 rank in any Craft skill, any item creation feat.
Benefit: You can assist another character in crafting mundane and magical items. You must both possess the relevant Craft skill or item creation feat, but either one of you can fulfill any other prerequisites for crafting the item. You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.
After that, its a small leap to allow the usual multiplier stacking.
That feat would grant some nice bonuses and make things even quicker I guess, but it's no secret that multiple people can work on the same item even without said feat (providing prerequisites and other resources, using aid another, etc.).
What my friend is curious about is whether or not you can save time by doing so too.
EDIT: I just noticed I didn't phrase my opening post very well. For the purposes of answering the question, assume that three crafters are working on the SAME item in eight-hour shifts in order to finish it faster.
My friend was in the military, where he and his colleagues would work on a big project in shifts to make sure it was finished in as short a time as possible. I guess that's where he got the idea from.
It's the last line in particular that I was thinking about, really. That your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.
This indicates that, with this feat, two characters (possibly more) can get together to contribute to the creation of a single magic item and craft it twice as fast.
That is the real benefit of the feat, in my opinion. The minor bonus to Craft/Spellcraft is just an extra boon.
However, if you are seeking validation for a houserule, then this feat may be used for that as well. A path exists in game for the benefit, but it is certainly within anyone's power to, for example, give the benefit (like a story bonus feat, or something) to any two crafters who satisfy the Prerequisites.
I don't really buy that. Feats and similar options are meant to expand your options, not limit them.
...it's a pretty gigantic rules exploit, to be honest, and opens up some really weird questions.
Just because you don't like the notion doesn't make it an exploit. That's very disingenuous of you. It's merely a logical conclusion made by rational men. Why couldn't multiple people work on one item in shifts as they tire out? I've seen nothing within the rules disallowing the concept. Also, Cooperative Crafting doesn't really apply here as it assumes people are simultaneously working together, rather than in shifts. I see no reason you couldn't use both, with six people working on one item in teams of two. It would make crafting guilds pretty damn efficient.
What you're basically saying is akin to "your character can't flip a table because there are no rules for it" or "your character can't flip that table because there is already a feat for that." That kind of thinking leads to bad GMing, bad game design, almost completely arbitrary and illogical decisions, and also totally kills immersion and fun for a great many players.
It totally makes sense that multiple people working on a large project will likely be more efficient (within reason). That's why crafting guilds existed, both in real life and in many sources of fantasy literature.
And we want to open up those really weird questions. It seems to us to be a hole in the rules not well covered, when it should be.
I don't really buy that. Feats and similar options are meant to expand your options, not limit them.
That's what this feat is doing - it expands your options by allowing multiple people to work on the same magic item and get it done faster. This is precisely what you're asking about doing. The feat is what allows it. Thus, it expands your options.
What is the purpose of the feat if you can already do what the feat accomplishes?
The exception that proves the rule, and all that.
And the biggest reason to not allow this sort of thing ordinarily is because Leadership, especially when combined with crafting cohorts, is obscene already. Besides, maybe all those crafting guilds are full of experts who took this feat.
I've seen nothing within the rules disallowing the concept.
I've seen nothing in the rules that allows multiple people to work on a single item. Another caster could provide a prerequisite, but not actually work on the item, except for the feat Adept Woodwright mentioned (See: Benefit: You can assist another character in crafting mundane and magical items.) I think it is pretty clear that without the feat, you DON'T get the benefit.
That is the rules as I read them. If this was the advice forum, I might give you a different answer, but here we are.
If you do want crafting shops, where multiple casters can work on a single item, use the feat or simply say that that is how magic works in your world. I would not say you are breaking a rule, just interpreting it differently. Many aspects of crafting, and the leadership feat are up to GM discretion, so it is your game, play it how you want.
From a real-life perspective, I have worked on some projects where shifts of people working in succession could get a job done much faster, but I have also worked on projects where one person is basically inventing something as they go along, and others are just going to mess up their design. If you view magic item creation as mechanics that are following an established plan, mass production makes sense. If you view it as artistic or invention, one caster per item makes more sense. I feel the rules imply the later (for example, you can only craft one item at a time, and you are not guaranteed success), but imply doesn't mean much in a rules forum question.
I see nothing in the feat that doesn't allow working in shifts if that is what is desired. You only need the cooperative crafting feat and the relevant feat, and to be working on the same item sometime during its construction.
I believe the general assumption is that a person with a crafting feat has a particular process in crafting which is vitally important for the successful completion of the item. Anyone else working on the item without the direct oversight of the main crafter, interfering in the process, invariably screws it up... unless the crafters have additional training to follow a repeatable process.
Real world analogy: a really extraordinary amateur programmer might be in the process of developing an amazing bit of code, but nobody else might be able to work on it because of its poorly structured/commented writing. A particularly trained pair of coders would adhere to standard practices to ensure nothing that one person does screws up the other's work (roll spellcraft to make sure you don't screw up the work) Fortunately, having two heads on the process allows for catching mistakes the other might have missed (+2 spellcraft a pop).
If you are following RAW rules by the letter, you can't, you gotta follow the usual rules, "each crafter must work on one item only, for a maximum of 8h a day,..." bla bla bla.
If you are not so concerned with RAW, it seems reasonable for several crafters to work on the same magic item by taking turns.
Also, I belive the 8h a day rule is based on the assumption that making magic items is hard work, so just like any job, if you're gonna doit for months, you'll probably need 8h sleep every day and a few hours to eat and rest.
If you manage to find a way to eliminate the need to eat, sleep or rest, it also wouldn't be unreasonable to allow you to work more than 8h a day, and you could add something like +1 to the Craft DC for every extra hour per day you work on the item, so working 24h would add +16 to the DC. Just a suggestion.
That's what this feat is doing - it expands your options by allowing multiple people to work on the same magic item and get it done faster.
Except it's not. It's common sense that multiple people could work together on a project. There's no rule anywhere against doing that, that I'm aware of. This feat shows up and says "more than one can do it." Since there was no such rule limiting it before, this feat add has added a limitation.
That's not at all what I'm saying.
That's good. That way leads only darkness.
Here's what we know about cooperative crafting:
A given crafter can only work on one magic item at a time.
Where are you getting this assertion? I see no evidence for this limitation.
Here's what we know about cooperative crafting:
C.Crafting doubles speed and grants a +2 on the die roll. With two crafters, you achieve the same net benefit via use of Aid Another. With three crafters you achieve a 50% increase over the feat.
Using your apparent logic, you can't add a third crafter at all, because no rule seemingly exists to support it.
This creates difficult rules questions. Who makes the item creation check? The team leader? The weakest link? Everybody? What happens if one crafter starts work on another item-- does everybody's work vanish, or only his?
And I'm totally fine asking those questions (though I think it would be the chosen team leader who makes the check, and all of the team's work is lost if they start on a different project).
If you are following RAW rules by the letter, you can't, you gotta follow the usual rules, "each crafter must work on one item only, for a maximum of 8h a day,..." bla bla bla.
You're not quoting rules, merely your own personal interpretation of them. Also, majority interpretation does not necessarily equate to the RAW. I've been proven right in the past when the masses thought me wrong (and the inverse has happened a lot too). Please try not to confuse the two.
I think that is not supported by RAW. But let's accept that can be done.
Who will make the Spellcraft check? I would insist in using the lower spellcraft check.
Furthermore, can be considered a non distractive situation to work in a creative project with other two people without overlaping the time dedicated to that? In other words, can you take 10 in that situation?
I think that is not supported by RAW. But let's accept that can be done.
That seems reasonable, and supported by what we know.
Who will make the Spellcraft check? I would insist in using the lower spellcraft check.
In the absence of firmer rules, that would be well within your right as a GM. If I were your player, I would accept such a ruling (though it would not quite be the outcome I was hoping for).
Furthermore, can [it] be considered a non-distracting situation to work in a creative project with other two people without overlapping the time dedicated to that? In other words, can you take 10 in that situation?
The only things stopping you from taking 10 on anything are distractions, threats, and anything specifically stating you can't take 10. Seeing as groups of people can clearly take 10 while working together at other, more difficult tasks, such as climbing a wall, I see no reason it couldn't be done here.
That's what this feat is doing - it expands your options by allowing multiple people to work on the same magic item and get it done faster.Except it's not. It's common sense that multiple people could work together on a project. There's no rule anywhere against doing that, that I'm aware of. This feat shows up and says "more than one can do it." Since there was no such rule limiting it before, this feat add has added a limitation.
That's not at all what I'm saying.
That's good. That way leads only darkness.
Here's what we know about cooperative crafting:
A given crafter can only work on one magic item at a time. Where are you getting this assertion? I see no evidence for this limitation.
Here's what we know about cooperative crafting:
C.Crafting doubles speed and grants a +2 on the die roll. With two crafters, you achieve the same net benefit via use of Aid Another. With three crafters you achieve a 50% increase over the feat. Using your apparent logic, you can't add a third crafter at all, because no rule seemingly exists to support it.
This creates difficult rules questions. Who makes the item creation check? The team leader? The weakest link? Everybody? What happens if one crafter starts work on another item-- does everybody's work vanish, or only his?And I'm totally fine asking those questions (though I think it would be the chosen team leader who makes the check, and all of the team's work is lost if they start on a different project).
If you are following RAW rules by the letter, you can't, you gotta follow the usual rules, "each crafter must work on one item only, for a maximum of 8h a day,..." bla bla bla.You're not quoting rules, merely your own personal interpretation of them. Also, majority interpretation does not necessarily equate to the RAW. I've been proven right in the past when the...
Cooperative Crafting sets a precedent in what the game expects. By rights, the feat is required in order to get the benefits it lists. Not having the feat means none of those benefits apply. And yes, Cooperative Crafting, by RAW would only allow 1 set of benefits, since Circumstance Bonuses stack (unless they're same-source, which for both is Cooperative Crafting), and the time reduction wouldn't stack with itself for the same reason.
Although you may be correct in that a PC and another PC or NPC can collaborate on a given project, nothing in RAW bars that. However, even if you allowed that, unless both have the Cooperative Crafting feat, you don't receive those benefits, or any other benefit in doing so, outside of maybe the other PC/NPC granting you components to actually make the item in the first place, but that isn't what's being asked here.
"Can I have outside help in making an item?" and "How can I make item crafting a faster process?" are two completely different questions, even if similar, if not the same answers for both might show up (since Cooperative Crafting is a "2 birds, 1 stone" sort of thing).
Additionally, using cohort/follower advancement as a means to get all the item creation feats for free is listed as an example of inappropriate advancement choices, AKA an exploit, according to the hardcover Ultimate Campaign. So unless you want to deal with the party basically getting a free portable self-cost-reliant Magick-Mart, then by all means allow it, and might I suggest some aspirin for the headaches that will ensue.
Cooperative Crafting sets a precedent in what the game expects.
Unfortunately, it does indicate the developer's intentions.
By rights, the feat is required in order to get the benefits it lists.
This is true of all feats, and is generally understood by most roleplayers.
Not having the feat means none of those benefits apply.
Agreed.
And yes, Cooperative Crafting, by RAW would only allow 1 set of benefits, since Circumstance Bonuses stack (unless they're same-source, which for both is Cooperative Crafting), and the time reduction wouldn't stack with itself for the same reason.
And this is where we disagree on a number of points. First, the stacking rules only really apply when referring to bonuses. Second, bonuses from the same source NEVER stack. Third, circumstance bonuses from different CIRCUMSTANCES stack, not sources; the terminology, though similar, means different things.
In any case, I'd argue that the bonuses and rule changes the feat provides are different from that which you'd get from working in shifts and thus have no bearing on one another (both because they are different things, and because they aren't really actual bonuses, excepting that +2).
Although you may be correct in that a PC and another PC or NPC can collaborate on a given project, nothing in RAW bars that.
I am correct in that. The developers have been supporting it for years, across multiple editions, including Pathfinder.
However, even if you allowed that...
Disallowing it would be a house rule.
...unless both have the Cooperative Crafting feat, you don't receive those benefits, or any other benefit in doing so, outside of maybe the other PC/NPC granting you components to actually make the item in the first place, but that isn't what's being asked here.
You can save time by working in shifts. With everyone using Cooperative Crafting, you can save even more time. I'm not seeing where one invalidates the other.
"Can I have outside help in making an item?" and "How can I make item crafting a faster process?" are two completely different questions, even if similar, if not the same answers for both might show up (since Cooperative Crafting is a "2 birds, 1 stone" sort of thing).
Those are different questions, and both should get answered within their respective contexts. Neither of those are the question I proposed in the opening post, however. What I asked was "Can multiple people work in shifts to create an item faster?"
Additionally, using cohort/follower advancement as a means to get all the item creation feats for free is listed as an example of inappropriate advancement choices, AKA an exploit, according to the hardcover Ultimate Campaign. So unless you want to deal with the party basically getting a free portable self-cost-reliant Magick-Mart, then by all means allow it, and might I suggest some aspirin for the headaches that will ensue.
So it appears. That doesn't in any way invalidate my question, however.
Isn't there somewhere in the rules that recommends that 1 crafting feat = 25% more WBL for you (and 0% for your friends)? If your friend wants to use Leadership to make an army of crafters wouldn't that alone be "wrong", considering 1 feat normaly allows 1 person to devote 8h a day to craft?
Also, it's true that the rules only say a crafter can work on only one magic item, but don't say several can't work on the same item. However, as mentioned before there's no rule for who rolls the craft DC in a case like this. I think, if all participants can succeed on the craft DC automatically, then there should be no problem.
I Think the rules about crafting assume only one crafter. To say that several Can work on the same thing at the same time or in shifts seems loke a ok house rule, an i use the first option, but the rules would have told us how to be more crafters on a single item if it was possible.
Edit: and in my game every crafter working on a projekt must make the skill check but they Can each have up to 3 assistents. And they must each provide the spells, feats and other prequsites or suffer the +5.
Isn't there somewhere in the rules that recommends that 1 crafting feat = 25% more WBL for you (and 0% for your friends)? If your friend wants to use Leadership to make an army of crafters wouldn't that alone be "wrong", considering 1 feat normaly allows 1 person to devote 8h a day to craft?
Sort of.
From Ultimate Campaign:
Adjusting Character Wealth by Level
You can take advantage of the item creation rules to hand-craft most or all of your magic items. Because you've spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table suggests for you. This is especially the case if you're a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items.
So, the recomendation is 25% increase for one crafting feat or 50% increase for two crafting feats.
I would allow the increased crafting rate, as long as it was understood that this increase is going to be your "cap" and that your friends crafting didn't increase your limit, but rather took from theirs. And they would need to understand that allies gained from leadership share your wealth by level, aside from the NPC wealth by level they are given at generation.
Isn't there somewhere in the rules that recommends that 1 crafting feat = 25% more WBL for you (and 0% for your friends)? If your friend wants to use Leadership to make an army of crafters wouldn't that alone be "wrong", considering 1 feat normally allows 1 person to devote 8h a day to craft?
Not in the rules that I'm aware of. I think developers have recommended such things though. EDIT: Ninja'd.
My friend isn't trying to break the game. It's just that we're constantly fighting demons in the World Wound in the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path. We simply don't have time to craft. He's just trying to find ways to support the war effort.
Let me see if I got the argument straight, because I legitimately may have misunderstood.
The rules do not say that 2 crafters can not work on the same magic item. As long as two or more crafters work in shifts, you can bypass the general 8-hour limit by being... crafty.
If this is the case, I would hesitate before pursuing that line of thinking. We cannot expect the rules to have negations for all potentialities.
Instead, we look to the rules to see what is possible. It gives rules for a single caster creating a magic item. It makes no mention of 2 people working together, so the base-line assumption is that it cannot be done.
In another location, the rules provide a method to have 2 (possibly more) crafters working on the same item. To do so, it claims you need a feat.
I've posted up thread how this sort of restriction might be interpreted in a basic, real-world scenario. Its not perfect, but nearly nothing is.
I agree that, that's generally a good way to go about it, Adept_Woodwright. However, people generally assume it is possible for our characters to do basic every day things as needed (even if they are not oft mentioned), such as to go to the bathroom, or to take shifts. Neither are in the rules, yet I doubt you'd hear anyone say it was impossible for a character to do those things.
Now, how would/should you handle such things? That's the real issue.
And this is where we disagree on a number of points. First, the stacking rules only really apply when referring to bonuses. Second, bonuses from the same source NEVER stack. Third, circumstance bonuses from different CIRCUMSTANCES stack, not sources; the terminology, though similar, means different things.
In any case, I'd argue that the bonuses and rule changes the feat provides are different from that which you'd get from working in shifts and thus have no bearing on one another (both because they are different things, and because they aren't really actual bonuses, excepting that +2).
I never debated separate circumstances don't stack. I said Circumstance Bonuses from the same source (in this case, Cooperative Crafting,) do not stack. Meaning you can't have, say, 4 people with Cooperative Crafting provide a +4 Circumstance bonus (though those people could instead work on 2 different projects and provide a +2 to the check on each), because the +2 you originally get arises from the same source, which is the Cooperative Crafting feat.
From the Common Terms section under Bonuses:
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.
Whether the crafting time adjustment stacks or not isn't covered in the rules, though I'd reckon any sane GM, as well as the intent of the rule, would follow the "only 2 people can work in conjunction" paradigm the feat sets, meaning it too would not stack together.
Apologies kestral287, I thought you were saying ONLY one person could work on one item at a time. I'm familiar with the rule you quoted (which says one item at a time, not one person at a time like I thought you meant).
What about having a sensible game that doesn't destroy verisimilitude because RULES (or at least how the GM might interpret them). Surely that counts for something?
Without the cooperative crafting feat, only a single person can work on a magic item. That is the rules.
With cooperative crafting, two people can produce double the amount of goods per day. It is not unreasonable to extend that (3 with cooperative crafting X3 etc.)
Frankly, I find this entirely reasonable given the flavor of magic and items and the way the real world works with complex tasks. I am a programmer, and I promise you that if you simply had another programmer, even one quite skilled, take up my work at the end of the day and start coding, the two of us together wouldn't accomplish a project twice as fast, indeed it would probably increase the time required to complete a project dramatically.
To add more people to a complex task requires special training and careful planning. In the game, this is represented by the cooperative crafting feat.
There are times when "a sensible game" has to take a backseat to balance, and if need be I can start coming up with explanations to make the rules sensible in-game. It's not that hard to do, in all honesty.
I can agree with this, kestral287.
Still, I don't see any hard evidence that, that feat, or any other rule prevents working in shifts. As I said before, they doing two different things: CC is for working on an item simultaneously, not for working in shifts. I continue to posit that, RAW if not RAI, you can do both (work in shifts with CC).
You guys are saying I can't apple because of orange. I really don't think apples and oranges interact in the way you guys describe, and that, from a RAW standpoint at least, your stance is fundamentally flawed.
.
Still, I don't see any hard evidence that, that feat, or any other rule prevents working in shifts. As I said before, they doing two different things: CC is for working on an item simultaneously, not for working in shifts. I continue to posit that, RAW if not RAI, you can do both (work in shifts with CC).
Do you have any evidence that two characters are allowed to work on the same item?
All the references in the rules are to the singular and their is no mention whatever to the contrary, with the exception of the cooperative crafting feat.
Whether simultaneously or shifts, the basic idea of multiple characters working on the same item remains exactly the same.
Unless you have evidence, not just your own belief that is should work, definitely you are not correct as to RAW. RAW is "The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day" singular.
This might be a bit of a tangent to the original question, but I'm curious about the realism of this versus straight up numbers. So, if you have a bunch of followers, and all of them have presumably a craft magic item feat, and cooperative crafting... Why are they working for your PC exactly?
And if there is a good reason, what percent cut of the profits are they getting from all their hard work?
That's what this feat is doing - it expands your options by allowing multiple people to work on the same magic item and get it done faster.Except it's not. It's common sense that multiple people could work together on a project. There's no rule anywhere against doing that, that I'm aware of. This feat shows up and says "more than one can do it." Since there was no such rule limiting it before, this feat add has added a limitation.
First, we're talking about creating magic items, so "common sense" isn't necessarily the most apt analogy.
Second, if you presume you could do this before, then the feat is a limitation. However, that the developers released a new feat allowing this sort of cooperation tends to support the idea that you, in fact, could not do it before. If you could, what would be the purpose of the feat? The phrasing of the feat would confusingly imply that you could not do so without it. Restricting what was a widely available ability to now only be allowed to a specific few without any explanation or attention drawing is a very poor way to change the rules.What is the reason for the change?
None of these are issues if you understand that by releasing this new feat, the developers were giving us a new restricted option, as opposed to limiting a previously available universal one. Thus, it stands to reason, the feat is not a limitation, but an entirely new ability.
@ Ravingdork:
It is fully possible to do a great many things that are outside the Rules... I just never expect to get a mechanical benefit out of doing those most of those things. I admit to having hope that clever uses of environment/planning are typically considered by the GM and accounted for mechanically if appropriate... I just can't point down to the rulebook and tell the GM that those clever things *deserve* a mechanical benefit.
This is an excellent question for a GM, because it *has* to be a houserule if you don't want to take the feat.
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Re-reading the feat, I am not convinced it has to be done simultaneously (if you really have a reason not to). You just both have to spend a certain amount of time crafting each day to receive the benefit.
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There's probably a way to role-play a bunch of people from your place of birth getting super excited that little Teresa/Jimmy from down the lane has grown up to be such a big strong/intelligent knight/mage that they want to contribute to their success in the small way they can.
They're followers. That presupposes (as far as I am aware) a strong belief in your cause.
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To be fair to Ravingdork, this wouldn't be the first time that a feat had actually extremely limited utility (I think there was a prone shooter feet, or something... oh, and the undersized mount feat, if I recall correctly.)
My friend, who proposed the question in the first place, just told me "Meh, the (CC) feat is good enough."
So I bid you a good night my friends! I shall disappear into shadow, and mourn the death of roleplaying, and the from afar bear witness to the birth of a new generation of rollplayers who feel nothing can be done if there is not a rule for it.
Seems rather melodramatic. You can still flip all the tables you please.
Alrighty then! (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻)
That said, if he's using Leadership? Tell him to get a bunch of Wizards off of it, and to make sure each one has the Valet archetype on their familiars. Each can craft twice as fast as normal; three-four times as fast if they rush the job (I don't recall, off-hand, how the multipliers pan out but I think it's x3). Three such Wizards make that 9,000-12,000 GP of items per day, which, if not an Otherworldly Kimono every 3-4 days, is still three Kimonos every 9-12 days.
We'll probably do that then, though I'm wondering how that is less abusive than the (alleged) exploit my friend proposed.
My friend, who proposed the question in the first place, just told me "Meh, the (CC) feat is good enough."
So I bid you a good night my friends! I shall disappear into shadow, and mourn the death of roleplaying, and the from afar bear witness to the birth of a new generation of rollplayers who feel nothing can be done if there is not a rule for it.
Ravingdork, you are asking a question in the RULES FORUM. People told you how the RULES would apply to your question. If you want an answer about homebrewing something cool, ask in the homebrew forum.
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Oh I know. I was just being melodramatic. This name doesn't live up to itself you know! :P
Oh I know. Just being melodramatic.
OK, carry on then.
That said, if he's using Leadership? Tell him to get a bunch of Wizards off of it, and to make sure each one has the Valet archetype on their familiars. Each can craft twice as fast as normal; three-four times as fast if they rush the job (I don't recall, off-hand, how the multipliers pan out but I think it's x3). Three such Wizards make that 9,000-12,000 GP of items per day, which, if not an Otherworldly Kimono every 3-4 days, is still three Kimonos every 9-12 days.We'll probably do that then, though I'm wondering how that is less abusive than the (alleged) exploit my friend proposed.
It's not. Anything involving Leadership generally is pretty abusive.
I call shenanigans!
*shrug*
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It totally makes sense that multiple people working on a large project will likely be more efficient (within reason). That's why crafting guilds existed, both in real life and in many sources of fantasy literature.
Now, how would/should you handle such things? That's the real issue.
Members of crafting guilds probably have the Cooperative crafting feat.
That said, I think it's reasonable to get some benefit to working in shifts as long as that benefit is not so much as Cooperative crafting. This represents the loss of efficiency due to the less coordinated characters trying to figure out what the others are doing and have done already.
I might suggest that the second and third shifts produce only 4 hours of progress during 8 hours of work, meaning you need three crafters to double your speed. Since these crafters are not working at the same time, each of them has to provide each pre-requisite in order to consider the pre-requisites filled; add +5 for each pre-requisite that at least one team member lacks. Finally, the crafter with the lowest spellcraft bonus makes the check.
Combining cooperative crafting with shifts would get a bit messier...
Nothing in the rules prevents working on the same item in shifts, and nothing allows it too.
If you're the DM, you have to choose : if you disallow it, fine. Otherwise, I would do that myself :
- Each character would have to fill their prerequisites. A character can't provide prerequisite to more than one shift per day. Each crafter must fill mandatory prerequisite.
- Each character would have to make their own Craft check. The craft check is the same, with missing prerequisites and acceleration possibly raising it.
Nothing in the rules prevents working on the same item in shifts, and nothing allows it too.
On this point, at least, I think we are all in agreement.
Cooperative Crafting has little to with different shifts. What it does do is allow several crafters to work together on the same item during the same shift.
Whithout C.Crafting, the fastest several crafters you can make one item by taking different shifts is 6,000g per day (3 crafters, each working 1 8h shift).
With C.Crafting, the 3 crafters could all work together during the same shift and finish a 6,000g magic item in only 8h.
Or, 9 crafters with C.Crafting could all work together during the same shift and finish a 18,000g magic item in 8h, but in this case the DM could say that's way too many people to help make one item.
It doesn't matter how many women are in the kitchen, it won't make the cake in the oven bake any faster.
I would say the 9 crafters could work in groups of 3, each taking 1 8h shift, this way making up to 18,000g of that magic item per day.
Kchaka, does the feat actually support more than two people?
All it says is that "you can assist another character", "you both must possess... crafting feat" --> you get the benefit. You just have to assist the crafter in some fashion in regard to the item. I think most GMs would at the very least interpret this as --must work an equally long time on the item (but not necessarily any further restriction)
I don't see a place where you need to be working simultaneously if you don't want to be (though again, in almost all cases barring a few strange scenarios, there's little reason not to work simultaneously)
Furthermore, I believe it is worded such that it is possible for GMs to interpret it either way, as far as stacking. Personally, Id treat it like aid another -- Up to a certain number at most at one time. What that number is depends on several factors.
Ah, and I made a mistake earlier. Only one of the crafters needs cooperative crafting. Its not a teamwork feat.
Or rather, if multiple people want to assist, the main crafter doesn't need the feat. He's not assisting himself.