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After a traumatic experience as a young 'un with male chauvinists and not being allowed to play "Star Wars D&D," I brought Principessa Francesca to my friends' house to play "We Be Goblins."
Afterwards when I introduced her to Freehold DM in Manhattan's The Compleat Strategist and he asked her how she liked it she responded:
[Points at me] "He ditched the party to go have sex with his goblin girlfriend for three hours and, later, he licked my face. Then he kept trying to use his goblin voice in bed and referred to the physical act of lovemaking as putting his 'hobgoblin' in my 'cave.'"
I don't think she's going to play again.
Yeah, great, you can find your way to freaking 36th street in Manhattan (or wherever the Compleat Strategist is) to introduce your GF to Freehold, but you can't put directions in your pocket in the rain to ensure a little *gurgle* time with me.
Effing gobbos.
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One interesting take on the still increasing numbers of women entering high tech fields is that at pretty much every step along the way, there have been strong detractors claiming that whatever the current state was, was just the natural way of things - most women didn't have the talent for the fields or they didn't have the interest. As the numbers grew, the response stayed the same - now we've reached the real limit.It's...
...the very silly thing about that view is, programming used to be mostly women...because socially, it was considered "women's work," as you could stay at home and tend the children.
When they wanted to move compsci to a more "respectable" field...they kicked out the women, and rebranded it. (Article at Stanford University addressing this historical "social sphere" swap and its effect)
Mudd's example offers us a successful way forward--by addressing the social paradigm.
Illustrations of both male and female heroes and heroines in Core books are part of that, ofc. You're communicating that both men AND women can be part of a thing. That's part of what makes the Mudd study so damned interesting.
ElterAgo - while I agree with most of what you point out above, I think it is important to also point out that if you are 50+ (like I am) and grew up playing D&D in the 70's and 80's it's easy to delude yourself into thinking that how it was then is how it is now,
but it really isn't anymore. Most people get into the hobby, these days, because they were at a MTG tourney, or Pokémon tourney, Local game store's "board game Saturday" event, or other social gathering (comic convention, midnight book release, game convention, or other event).
Yes people still introduce their friends and families to the game, but the bigger picture is, actually, the bigger picture.
I don't think this is really true. I'm younger (30), and most people I know who game were introduced by friends in college by someone who was introduced to it in high school by family or friends. I can't think of a single person I know who was introduced to it at a game store or convention. Often already playing magic or another CCG (which in and of itself is spread through friends) is an indicator of possible interest, but magic players generally avoid RPGs unless introduced through someone they already know. They wont pick it up just because it is on the shelf. I can think of only a handful of people I know who started gaming after college, and they were introduced through other gaming hobbies by friends and not random people at a game store.
Also interesting, at 2 colleges I have social circles in, the RPG clubs are more gender even then the colleges as a whole (close to 40/60 when the colleges are 25/75 women to men)
Hmm...
I don't currently play any RPG's other than PF. But I know some people that do. There may be more of that 'pick it up' or 'cold walk-in' in some of the other games.
PF is by far the biggest slice of gamers (at least in my area). Once someone already plays an RPG, they might be more likely to just grab one and give it a try.
Not sure.
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Well, I am an Australian male in my 50's who has been roleplaying and GMing for over 35 years.
On women in groups, well it is more common than it used to be. And mostly, as far as I can tell it goes off more or less OK. Australian women are pretty liberated, they get a lot closer to equal income than women do in the US for example.
And young women, they do most things if they want to and anyone who is fool enough to tell them "girls can't do that" is likely to be told to "go f### yourself" or somesuch.
I had a gay female couple in my star wars RPG at a gaming club a couple of years back and there was no problem from anyone.
Also, as a few ladies have pointed out, women are not all the same and often neither need nor want special treatment.
Problems? Well being hit on excessively is one. A cool girl I roleplayed with used to claim to be lesbian to head that off. She wasn't.
Another very attractive girl quit a game cos her characters kept winding up in pits being molested with tentacles. She tried playing male characters but it didn't help.
Some gamers and stereotypical geeks who don't know how to act around women or girls too. Its not that common.
Also women have different approaches to male dominated environments. Some are worried about fitting in or avoid them, others seek them out because they prefer them or like the attention.
I would actually prefer more women in gaming groups. All male groups have their own dynamics, louder and ruder often, which I don't like. Some girls to ensure they act a bit more like human beings are a good thing. And women tend to be the social organisers.
I have an all male group and the social organiser tends to be... me.
Finally, roleplaying isn't so problematic for the fair sex as other things. Another of passions is martial arts. To practice an arm bar on someone, you put one foot across their throat, rest the other on their chest, draw the arm closer to you through your groin and thrust upwards with you hips. Like you are more fond of that arm than is decent. Makes any difficulties involved in roleplaying seem trivial indeed.
And women are not anywhere near the most excluded group. I have known a grand total of 3 openly gay or bisexual men [as opposed to openly fey, that is quite common] to attend roleplaying in all my decades of playing. And no transgender people. It is not even that common for people to practice bestiality at gaming clubs.
Hmm...
I don't currently play any RPG's other than PF. But I know some people that do. There may be more of that 'pick it up' or 'cold walk-in' in some of the other games.
PF is by far the biggest slice of gamers (at least in my area). Once someone already plays an RPG, they might be more likely to just grab one and give it a try.
Not sure.
I think it depends a lot on the culture of your group.
In college, almost no one in my gaming groups played d&d (3.0 then 3.5) regularly. We all knew how, it was most people's introduction, but there were so many other things that people saw it as too much time investment (perfecting a build) for a game that was too rigid. Some people liked the theorycrafting, but more people enjoyed designing their own systems instead to work with the small campaign they wanted to run. In college I think I played 1 d20 game but at least 10 different homebrews. People sat around all day designing systems to run through short games (5-10 sessions).
After college the group I game with plays almost exclusively Pathfinder in long campaigns. A couple don't want to bother learning non-d20 games, and none of us really have the time to explore lots of different styles. Gaming is now more of a reason to get together and socialize, when in college it was something to do since you were always together.
And women are not anywhere near the most excluded group. I have known a grand total of 3 openly gay or bisexual men [as opposed to openly fey, that is quite common] to attend roleplaying in all my decades of playing. And no transgender people. It is not even that common for people to practice bestiality at gaming clubs.
This may be a very regional thing, but in my experience the LBGT is more openly represented in the gaming community than in the general population.
My group has sort of organically grown, but from the onset we always had and continue to have an almost equal ratio men and women. We started with 3 women, 2 men. Now we have 5 women, 7 men. (We've had to split into three campaigns.)
Two observations: 1) I think it goes a long way to assume that other people are there to play, not flirt or be hit on. Staying in character might help, depending on the PC. Before or after a game you might ask for someone's phone number or ask them out for dinner or coffee. As in, keep the romancing and the gaming separate. I know a lot of people hate to play with couples who don't know how to unwind themselves from each other. I think the same probably goes for (un)reciprocated advances between the recently-acquainted. There just seem like better venues for that sort of thing.
2) I don't think men are intrinsically more into gaming. Of the 12 people in our group, we introduced 9 of them (5 women, 4 men) to the hobby and all within the last 2 years. Maybe my group is an outlier, but in my experience, the process of inviting someone to join your gaming group doesn't seem one whit different whether it be an invitation to a man or a woman. Just ask them.
Yeah Dustin, more women are coming in, have been for a while, universities are great places for this to happen (them starting earlier would be even better).
Some can also be persuaded to make the jump from fantasy games like skyrim and liking fantasy novels, to finally taking the old school pencil and paper rpg plunge. All about exciting their interests and being welcoming.
Before you know it, you can get mostly female groups.
Joynt, maybe Australia is leading the way. ; )
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Well, I am an Australian male in my 50's who has been roleplaying and GMing for over 35 years.
And young women, they do most things if they want to and anyone who is fool enough to tell them "girls can't do that" is likely to be told to "go f### yourself" or somesuch.
I think this is where our confusion is coming from, Australian girls seem to be a bit of a different set of personalities - they are quite happy going where they please and that includes gaming, which is probably why we look at the thread and think "what problem?", as there are certainly a fair few girl gamers kicking about and the issues we read about don't really happen here.
I could just imagine some grognards trying to pull some of the anecdotes in this thread at a Sydney gaming event... it would be a speed challenge to see who could throttle the person first.
As for martial arts, we have a lot of girls (40% as a guess) rolling on the canvas where we train, so no shortfall there :)
Families who fight and play together stay together.
An excellent sentiment Shifty.
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You'll forgive me, I'm sure, if I'd prefer to hear directly from female Australian gamers about their experiences before declaring Australian game milieus a bastion of inclusivity.
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Well, I am an Australian male in my 50's who has been roleplaying and GMing for over 35 years.
And young women, they do most things if they want to and anyone who is fool enough to tell them "girls can't do that" is likely to be told to "go f### yourself" or somesuch.
I think this is where our confusion is coming from, Australian girls seem to be a bit of a different set of personalities - they are quite happy going where they please and that includes gaming, which is probably why we look at the thread and think "what problem?", as there are certainly a fair few girl gamers kicking about and the issues we read about don't really happen here.
I could just imagine some grognards trying to pull some of the anecdotes in this thread at a Sydney gaming event... it would be a speed challenge to see who could throttle the person first.
As for martial arts, we have a lot of girls (40% as a guess) rolling on the canvas where we train, so no shortfall there :)
Families who fight and play together stay together.
It's ingrained into the national character that all Australians should be tough, self sufficient, and have a healthy disrespect for Authority and those that set themselves above others.
Australian women fought and continue to fight hard for equality Utopia Girls is an excellent documentary on how Australian women were first in the world to achieve equal representation.
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You'll forgive me, I'm sure, if I'd prefer to hear directly from female Australian gamers about their experiences before declaring Australian game milieus a bastion of inclusivity.
Shifty is not claiming it's perfect... It is different with different problems to the U.S. Experience.
That is why we scratch our heads at some of the complaints we see coming from the U.S.
And women are not anywhere near the most excluded group. I have known a grand total of 3 openly gay or bisexual men [as opposed to openly fey, that is quite common] to attend roleplaying in all my decades of playing. And no transgender people. It is not even that common for people to practice bestiality at gaming clubs.This may be a very regional thing, but in my experience the LBGT is more openly represented in the gaming community than in the general population.
I suspect it varies from group to group a lot too. Goups of friends that include LGB people will for RPG groups with LGB in them.
And my original post is wrong. I forgot I used to roleplay with my Goth friends in Brisbane. And naturally that meant wall to wall bisexuals, or at least people who claimed to be bisexual.Even aside from this, there must be a lot more gay people I have gamed with, I just don't know about it. And I don't care and am not into nosing into people's private lives, so I won't know unless it comes up.
And women are not anywhere near the most excluded group. I have known a grand total of 3 openly gay or bisexual men [as opposed to openly fey, that is quite common] to attend roleplaying in all my decades of playing. And no transgender people. It is not even that common for people to practice bestiality at gaming clubs.This may be a very regional thing, but in my experience the LBGT is more openly represented in the gaming community than in the general population.
I think this may be true in my area as well. I went with my friend to a nearby gaming club in a big university city and of the twenty or so people there only myself and a few MTG players were not LBGT.
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You'll forgive me, I'm sure, if I'd prefer to hear directly from female Australian gamers about their experiences before declaring Australian game milieus a bastion of inclusivity.Shifty is not claiming it's perfect... It is different with different problems to the U.S. Experience.
That is why we scratch our heads at some of the complaints we see coming from the U.S.
That may be, but given that men don't believe sexism is real even when confronted with hard evidence of its existence, that men don't notice it when it's happening in front of them, and that you guys are speaking about other people's experiences in the abstract, I don't really trust that your perceptions/interpretations of women's experiences, thoughts, and feelings are accurate. You're speaking speculatively/second-hand. And all of that is assuming that your intentions are good and any inaccuracies come from obliviousness rather than intent. I mean, heck, given that there's at least one poster in this thread who's said elsewhere that I and other women who talk about harassment are just straight-up lying about our experiences, that's not even beginning to account for any intentional minimizing or erasure that might be going on.
So I'll believe that Australian gaming venues don't have the same gender-related issues as U.S. ones when I hear it from a solid sample of Australian women who game.
But even assuming that your impressions of women's overall experiences with gaming in Australia were true, what does that have to do with fixing the problems the thread was started to address? How is it relevant? How is appearing in a thread about solving an issue to say that you haven't witnessed the issue helpful or productive?
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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Here's a concrete and potentially productive suggestion: introduce the X-Card to more public gaming spaces.
It's a free set of rules to be used as a safety tool in RPG's, among other places/spaces/situations. Would it be feasible to encourage the use of this tool in more public gaming spaces? Would it help? What would it take to make its implementation more widespread?
After a traumatic experience as a young 'un with male chauvinists and not being allowed to play "Star Wars D&D," I brought Principessa Francesca to my friends' house to play "We Be Goblins."
Afterwards when I introduced her to Freehold DM in Manhattan's The Compleat Strategist and he asked her how she liked it she responded:
[Points at me] "He ditched the party to go have sex with his goblin girlfriend for three hours and, later, he licked my face. Then he kept trying to use his goblin voice in bed and referred to the physical act of lovemaking as putting his 'hobgoblin' in my 'cave.'"
I don't think she's going to play again.
Yeah, great, you can find your way to freaking 36th street in Manhattan (or wherever the Compleat Strategist is) to introduce your GF to Freehold, but you can't put directions in your pocket in the rain to ensure a little *gurgle* time with me.
Effing gobbos.
Believe me, if my hawt commie NY schoolteacher girlfriend had been with you and the G-man in Allston, I would've made it.
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That may be, but given that men don't believe sexism is real even when confronted with hard evidence of its existence, that men don't notice it when it's happening in front of them,
Jessica, I agree with most of what you say. But saying "men don't" as opposed to "men often don't" is, literally, wrong.
And the quote you are responding to eventually goes back to one of my posts, that has quite a bit that is critical of male gamers being sexist, which can't happen if these unqualified statements are true.
But I am sure many male roleplayers don't see any problem for females in their gaming groups, which just means they don't see it.
I recall a bunch of roleplayers engaging in a hatefest over a lesbian feminist tutor at a uni. I asked them if there was actually anything to suggest she was lesbian, which there wasn't, and then told them they were all acting like children. We are not all bad.
But I am not typical, especially of men my age.
And my current gaming group includes a asexual, a group that hasn't been mentioned.
Here's a concrete and potentially productive suggestion: introduce the X-Card to more public gaming spaces.
It's a free set of rules to be used as a safety tool in RPG's, among other places/spaces/situations. Would it be feasible to encourage the use of this tool in more public gaming spaces? Would it help? What would it take to make its implementation more widespread?
If that got attempted in any group I have ever gamed with, the person who brought it up would probably be laughed at so much they would flee from embarrassment.
If that got attempted in any group I have ever gamed with, the person who brought it up would probably be laughed at so much they would flee from embarrassment.Here's a concrete and potentially productive suggestion: introduce the X-Card to more public gaming spaces.
It's a free set of rules to be used as a safety tool in RPG's, among other places/spaces/situations. Would it be feasible to encourage the use of this tool in more public gaming spaces? Would it help? What would it take to make its implementation more widespread?
Actually it sounds like a really good idea to me. Helpful when you're playing around with more intense emotional stuff than comes up in the usual PF game. I doubt it would see much use in the typical dungeon crawl.
As the site says though you can try to do things you might not otherwise, because there is a safety net.I don't think it would be that helpful in this context though: Most of the behaviors that are problematic aren't explicitly in game behaviors, so they'd need to be called out specifically and that would probably just lead to the confrontations this tries to avoid. There's a certain level of trust needed to make it work.
Oh, I can see uses for this in things that are designed to cause bleed. Most larps I have played in that are designed to do that have some outlet mechanic for people. But in my experience, most tabletop groups will look at this and laugh like Rocket hearing the plan.
#YesAllGoblins
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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Jessica, I agree with most of what you say. But saying "men don't" as opposed to "men often don't" is, literally, wrong.That may be, but given that men don't believe sexism is real even when confronted with hard evidence of its existence, that men don't notice it when it's happening in front of them,
Can we not focus on the phrasing of this, since obviously it is not intended to mean "literally all men, every last one of them," and instead focus on the actual data that talks about men not recognizing sexism and harassment?
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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If that got attempted in any group I have ever gamed with, the person who brought it up would probably be laughed at so much they would flee from embarrassment.Here's a concrete and potentially productive suggestion: introduce the X-Card to more public gaming spaces.
It's a free set of rules to be used as a safety tool in RPG's, among other places/spaces/situations. Would it be feasible to encourage the use of this tool in more public gaming spaces? Would it help? What would it take to make its implementation more widespread?
What makes it so funny?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Ever notice how when someone points out that you didn't include the caveat that everyone knows was implied, that's the only remark they make? That is, they don't then go on to make a meaningful reply to the actual content of the post?
So, Joynt Jezebel, do you have any thoughts on the content of the poorly-cushioned post? Or did you mean to imply that, with a caveat of non-absolutism, you agree with it all?
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Here's a concrete and potentially productive suggestion: introduce the X-Card to more public gaming spaces.
It's a free set of rules to be used as a safety tool in RPG's, among other places/spaces/situations. Would it be feasible to encourage the use of this tool in more public gaming spaces? Would it help? What would it take to make its implementation more widespread?
I don't like the idea of everyone being able to censor whatever they want with no explanation given.
I find the idea rather ridiculous. We're all grown ups (and most likely friends or family). If something is bothering you, just say it. Why do we need a card with a drawing in it? Why make communication less clear?
I'd actually laugh if someone used the X-card on themselves. If you think it's that bad, why did you say it in the first place?
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That may be, but given that men don't believe sexism is real even when confronted with hard evidence of its existence, that men don't notice it when it's happening in front of them,
Jessica, I agree with most of what you say. But saying "men don't" as opposed to "men often don't" is, literally, wrong.
And the quote you are responding to eventually goes back to one of my posts, that has quite a bit that is critical of male gamers being sexist, which can't happen if these unqualified statements are true.
But I am sure many male roleplayers don't see any problem for females in their gaming groups, which just means they don't see it.
I recall a bunch of roleplayers engaging in a hatefest over a lesbian feminist tutor at a uni. I asked them if there was actually anything to suggest she was lesbian, which there wasn't, and then told them they were all acting like children. We are not all bad.
But I am not typical, especially of men my age.
And my current gaming group includes a asexual, a group that hasn't been mentioned.
Did you seriously just #notallmen? Seriously?
Obviously not all men harass women or otherwise participate in making women uncomfortable in gaming spaces. But that's utterly irrelevant to the conversation about how to fix the problem caused by the fact that some men do these things.
I mean, for crying out loud, every single time we try to have a conversation about how to fix problems for women in gaming spaces, a chorus of (predominantly) dudes shows up to be like, "Well, *I* don't do that!" (Congratulations. Here's a cookie for meeting the minimum standard of not being a jerk.) "I have never seen it happen!" (And yet it is happening, as evidenced by the fact that people are complaining about it. If you'd like to call them liars, go do so elsewhere.) "Not ALL men harass women or make gaming spaces uncomfortable for them!" (NO ONE SAID THEY DID. BUT ENOUGH DO THAT IT IS A PROBLEM.)
I mean, honestly, if you sub in pretty much any other problem for problems related to gender (or race/orientation/etc.), you start to see how absurd the derailing in these threads is.
OP: My neighbors are setting off fireworks every night and I can't sleep because of it. Anyone got any ideas on how to get them to stop?
Poster: I have that problem too! Yes, what can we do to get them to stop?
Poster: Calling the police didn't help? Maybe a neighborhood association could help?
Random Internet Dude #1: You know, not ALL neighbors set off fireworks every night!
Random Internet Dude #2: I've never seen my neighbors set off fireworks.
Random Internet Dude #3: WHY ARE YOU SAYING ALL NEIGHBORS SET OFF FIREWORKS AT NIGHT?
Random Internet Dude #4: Maybe you're just oversensitive about your sleep.
Random Internet Dude #5: If you can't sleep through fireworks, you shouldn't live where you have neighbors.
Random Internet Dude #6: Are they really setting off fireworks? Or just sparklers?
Random Internet Dude #7: Why do you hate all your neighbors?
OP: So yeah, I'm pretty sure my community actually has rules against setting off fireworks, at least after midnight, but obviously it's still happening. I was sort of hoping for ideas on how to get my neighbors to stop doing it, though, since they still are...
Random Internet Dude #19316: Jeez, why should your neighbors have to obey those restrictive rules? Stop trying to control their behavior.
Random Internet Dude #92846: Yeah, seriously, how can they focus on and enjoy living in their house if they can't set off fireworks in the middle of the night?
Random Internet Dude #12359: What about people whose neighbors are vandalizing their houses? Why aren't you talking about THOSE people?
Random Internet Dude #72135: Maybe those fireworks were a compliment!
Every. Single. Time.
Which just reinforces my impression of the futility of trying to talk about fixing these things in public, where pretty much anyone can join (read: dilute and derail) the conversation. I'm not interested in continuing to spend my time dealing with people who want to make sure those conversations don't happen, instead of with people who are actually interested in making gaming experiences better for more people, so I'm done. I appreciate the responses from people who actually were attempting to have that conversation. Thanks for trying!
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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Here's a concrete and potentially productive suggestion: introduce the X-Card to more public gaming spaces.
It's a free set of rules to be used as a safety tool in RPG's, among other places/spaces/situations. Would it be feasible to encourage the use of this tool in more public gaming spaces? Would it help? What would it take to make its implementation more widespread?
I don't like the idea of everyone being able to censor whatever they want with no explanation given.
I find the idea rather ridiculous. We're all grown ups (and most likely friends or family). If something is bothering you, just say it. Why do we need a card with a drawing in it? Why make communication less clear?
I'd actually laugh if someone used the X-card on themselves. If you think it's that bad, why did you say it in the first place?
Did you read the whole document? I believe it should answer most of your questions.
But to specifically respond to the question of yours that I've bolded:
-Not everyone is good at expressing what's bothering them due to trauma, social anxiety, or any number of reasons. The X-Card makes that barrier to expression lower.
-The card pretty clearly communicates: "This is bothering me significantly enough that I need it to stop, and maybe take a break for a second." I fail to see how it makes communication less clear in any way--care to explain?
-Sometimes providing a detailed explanation can make trauma more traumatizing for people. This addresses the "no explanation given" dislike of yours.
-Using the X-Card on oneself can be a way of back-peddling if you've said something that obviously makes someone uncomfortable, and you would like to take it back so they don't have to make it an issue themselves. You can also do this, as the document suggests, if you're the DM or otherwise the person introducing the X-Card to a group, in order to normalize it a little and to exemplify its use.
As the X-Card doc explains: the card is a tool to make sure everyone feels safe and comfortable while playing. Because tabletop RPG's are a fundamentally social experience, it's important that everyone is having fun and not feeling shitty. The players' (and GM's!) safety outweigh the need to play an RPG, dig?
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Ever notice how when someone points out that you didn't include the caveat that everyone knows was implied, that's the only remark they make? That is, they don't then go on to make a meaningful reply to the actual content of the post?
So, Joynt Jezebel, do you have any thoughts on the content of the poorly-cushioned post? Or did you mean to imply that, with a caveat of non-absolutism, you agree with it all?
Well, Jessica is obviously angry, but I think that she has good reason to be.
There is nothing in Jessica's post I disagree with, except for the phraseology that others seem to believe I am being a pedant about. I am not sure myself, most, certainly not all, guys on this thread seem to want to make roleplaying environments better for women and don't approve of sexist behavior.
On the face of it I was first inclined to say that Jessica's post was a bit too confrontational but otherwise perfectly correct. But in order to say that I would have to go and trace the posts Jessica was responding to and think through their content. And I am not in a position to know exactly which posts Jessica had in mind. Hence I say most not all.
You may be thinking this sounds like a lawyer or philosopher, and that is indeed where a lot of my education was. And I am a bit of a stickler for precision in thought and expression. So sue me. :P