While combat maneuvers are generally a strategy with diminishing returns in Pathfinder, they're very good in Society play due to the overwhelming number of humanoid enemies. You'll really want to focus hard on one maneuver and pump it up as far as you can. The Lore Warden Fighter works well for all types of maneuver builds, though you usually want to go trip with them.
There are a number of archetypes designed to trick out a single maneuver. For trips, there's the Underfoot Adept Monk (play it with a Human with Racial Heritage Halfing); for grapples, there's the Tetori Monk; for Dirty Tricks, there's the Skulking Slayer Rogue (really the Dirty Fighter Fighter but that's PFS illegal unfortunately). The other maneuvers aren't good for focusing in on specifically.
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Lore Warden Fighter gets bonuses to all maneuvers, and Combat Expertise as a bonus feat to allow for several 'Improved Maneuver' feats. Combine this with a Maneuver Master Monk for flurry of maneuvers, and you can can get more than one maneuver off in a single turn. Also, it will be very useful to have Combat Reflexes to take advantage of any provocations you cause on your opponents.
The fighter favored class bonus of +1 two the CMD for any two maneuvers synergizes very well, protecting you from the maneuvers of others.
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They're not as diminishing return as one thinks.
First, at least 1 level of Manuever Master Monk is nearly a requirement for a "really good" CMB-specialist that can do more than just "Only Trip". The reason for this is they are the ONLY class in the game that effectively gives you a free "CMB" attack per turn as part of your attack. This is effectively like getting Quick Dirty Trick, Quick Grapple, Quick Bull Rush, etc etc all for free. This should always be your second level if you are multiclassing; since the classes you would use as your first class (Brawler, Lore Warden) have better hp. As an added bonus it has a +2 to all saves and gives you your wisdom to AC (if you are not doing "Brawler armor").
Second, the best race is going to be Tengu. Tiefling used to be the best for a similar reason; natural attacks can be used for "basic" (Disarm, Trip) attacks just like regular attacks (albeit @ -5). There are few other PFS-legal races that get these natural attacks; formally Oni-Tieflings were the best, but like the rest of Tieflings are now banned in PFS.
So now let's focus on CMB. I generally recommend the dex route if you are going to be heavy into Lore Warden (since they have the spare feats you'll need to make this "worth it"). The dex-dump-strength route does have the issue of lowering your CMD (which helps you keep Grappling), but with the best race(s) being Tengu and other dex-based natural attack races, that bonus (and not failing on AC) makes this worth it.
For low levels, Trip is your best trick.... guys on the ground don't hurt anyone, and as a tengu Manuever Master you can take 5 trips a turn if you want. Mid levels as flight becomes more common Grapple takes over; it also is the best manuever for boss fights.
At low levels I tended to disarm after most humanoids were tripped, but since I had a good Wis and Dex and they were -4, I accepted that attack and did not ever bother taking the "Improved Disarm" route. I did the "Ki Throw" thing for a while, but ultimately trained out of those after deciding to cause more damage... and I was starting to run into too many "trip immune" enemies.
For the manuever master "Extra Attack", Dirty Trick is key. At high levels blinding enemies is king; incorporeals aside, it works on everyone (no need to worry about flight, or size, or anything else; they are "just blind", or nautious if you want them to be hit by your spellcasters.
So, my personal build by 5 was (accepting a tolerance of "Min Max")
Tengu Lore Warden 4 / Manuever Master 1
Str: 7
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Dex: 19
Con: 12
Chr: 7
LW 1) Agile Manuevers, Combat Reflexes
MM 1) Improved Trip
LW 2) Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Grapple
LW 3) - +2 CMB, +1 to Dex
LW 4) Weapon Finese, Vicious Stomp (Damage time)
By level 5 you should finally have the PP for your Agile Amulet of Mighty Fist (Dex to damage) and a Dusty Rose Ioun in a WayFinder (+2 CMB, +1 AC).
This places you at:
CMB: +5 (level) +5 (Dexterity) +2 (Improved feat for most relevant manuevers) +2 (Lore Warden) +2 (Ioun Stone) = +16... which sould be plenty to take down even most bosses @ level 5.
Round 1 - typical attack as you close
Trip (+16, you're not flurrying)
AOO (Vicious Stomp) +13 to hit (since they are on ground) for d6+5
Round 2 (or any round you get a full attack).
Dirty Trick someone with your manuever master attack (+14) to blind
Trip them with a claw (they are blind so flat footed -2) - you are at +11 since it is a claw attack.
AOO them as they go down.
Trip any other opponents around (AOO each, see Round 1).. again preferring to use claws and beak to do the tripping and save your more damaging fist.
Disarm anyone on the ground with a weapon (suck up the AOOs).
Finish off with attacks (d6 + 5 can add up with lots of attacks).
At Level 5 you'll have 1 Free Manuever, 1 "Punch Attack", 3 Natural Attacks... and any trips will get you a free AOO.
@ 6 you'll get Fighter Training (Natural) and a +2 Dex amulet for further CMB. I'd also take Improved Blindfighting here (Invis/Dark can be annoying)
@ 7 you'll start into the "Greater" line of feats (you finally qualify) for +2s. You'll also be doing two manuevers when someone gets tripped (Greater Trip + Vicious Stomp work togheter) and @8 you get another +2 from Lore Warden.
From there I would start back into Manuever Master (build up the 5 levels to add your Wisdom to CMB as well; and get better saves. More levels of fighter really don't offer much).
By level 12 my manuever bonuses were in the 30s, and (thanks to Gloves of Dueling and an Insane dex) I was doing d8+10 per hit (not much until you realize I am up to 8 attacks). It's a good build.
Alternatives include staying as Manuever Master (Which costs the Gloves of Dueling and some attack bonuses and limits your number of feats a little; but makes your defenses much better and eventually enables even MORE attacks); and Brawler dip (which eliminates the need for the 13 int).
You have to stay REALLY focused on CMB to make it work throughout your career, but if done right it will be a very fun character to play.
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The underfoot adept is from ARG, and thus you cannot access it via racial heritage in PFS.(it's legal, but only for halflings)Umm... Why not?
Racial Heritage works for stuff from Core and APG. It's either in PFS Additional Resources or PFS FAQ but it states that things in the ARG are only for the race listed... So a Half-Orc can't take traits/feats from Orc, etc, etc. Only exception is the Half-Elf's "Elven Spirit" feat listed IN the ARG that states instead of taking the regular bonus from the feat you may swap it out for another Elven racial trait that replaces Elven Magic. That's the only exception, all other stuff can only be taken as the race it's listed under.
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They're not as diminishing return as one thinks.
First, at least 1 level of Manuever Master Monk is nearly a requirement for a "really good" CMB-specialist that can do more than just "Only Trip". The reason for this is they are the ONLY class in the game that effectively gives you a free "CMB" attack per turn as part of your attack.
This is untrue. If you're using Flurry of Blows you can replace 1 attack with a CMB at any time. Maneuver Master Monk allows you to Flurry of Maneuvers...which lets you do multiple maneuvers as part of a full-attack action. It also means you can only flurry maneuvers since you're replacing Flurry of Blows.
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This is untrue. If you're using Flurry of Blows you can replace 1 attack with a CMB at any time. Maneuver Master Monk allows you to Flurry of Maneuvers...which lets you do multiple maneuvers as part of a full-attack action. It also means you can only flurry maneuvers since you're replacing Flurry of Blows.They're not as diminishing return as one thinks.
First, at least 1 level of Manuever Master Monk is nearly a requirement for a "really good" CMB-specialist that can do more than just "Only Trip". The reason for this is they are the ONLY class in the game that effectively gives you a free "CMB" attack per turn as part of your attack.
That is true only for Trip and Disarm. The rest (Reposition, Grapple, Dirty Trick) are standard actions (pending "quick" varient feats, which let you cheat this a little). So things like "Trip-Grapple" or "Dirty Trick-Trip-Trip-Trip" only work with a manuever master until level 6-8 (when you get CMB +6 and first qualify for "Quick" feats, but probably want the "Greater" feats instead). The trip-grapple makes it really easy to lock people on the floor for your buddies to wipe up (they get +6 to hit effectively, and the opponent is -4 on trying to escape with CMB).
Eventaully Two-Weapon Fighting Style combos with your Flurry of Manuevers and actually give you the best of both worlds; whereas Two-Weapon does not combo with Flurry of Blows. Flurry of Manuevers can also combo with Brawler Armor (if you are going the STR route and want to pump damage), again unlike Flurry of Blows.
PFS is a good place to run combat maneuver builds because it caps out at 12th level, and because the GM can't ever tailor the campaign to shut down your build.
Usually, people pick one or two maneuvers and focus on those. I run a grapple build (halfling tetori) and an overrun build (human fighter with a Master of Many Styles dip for Dragon Style), and I've seen people run very effective trip/reposition builds (Flowing Monk/Monk of the Iron Mountain) and disarm/sunder builds (Aldori Swordlord/duelist, I think).
With the introduction of Brawler, flexible maneuver builds are now viable, but I haven't seen any past level 4 to get a feel for how well they scale. (At low levels, they are awesome.)
The overall trick is to make sure you have something to do as a backup when your maneuvers aren't viable. You will hit scenarios where your build just can't do much. (Ghosts...why did it have to be chosts...?)
I agree that PFS seems like a much safer place to bet on combat maneuvers than in a homebrew game. However, even in a homebrew game with a rather high number of flying, swimming, and crawling foes I've found that the Vicious Stomp, Enforcer, and Hurtful feats make a very nice combo with trip attacks. If you need some Monk levels to bulk up on feats you could consider the Flowing Monk archetype. Being able to trip a foe as an immediate action even just a few times per day can be a nice defense.
Grapple based PCs can be fun too. I'd advise finding a way to get the Grab ability. Druids are an obvious choice for that. I'm also having a lot of fun playing a Feral Gnasher.
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A friend of mine has a tetori monk 2/ cavalier 2 (can't remember the order) who can tie up an enemy in two turns. Grapple then tie up.
That would be order of the penitent.
I agree that PFS seems like a much safer place to bet on combat maneuvers than in a homebrew game. However, even in a homebrew game with a rather high number of flying, swimming, and crawling foes I've found that the Vicious Stomp, Enforcer, and Hurtful feats make a very nice combo with trip attacks. If you need some Monk levels to bulk up on feats you could consider the Flowing Monk archetype. Being able to trip a foe as an immediate action even just a few times per day can be a nice defense.
Grapple based PCs can be fun too. I'd advise finding a way to get the Grab ability. Druids are an obvious choice for that. I'm also having a lot of fun playing a Feral Gnasher.
Tetori Monks get Grab at 8th level as a class feature. Pick up Anaconda's Coils to get constrict with that, and go to town.
(At 9th level, tetoris can suppress Freedom of Movement...)
My Feral Gnasher has Anaconda's Coil. That 9th level Tetori ability looks nice and might be even better in a home game than PFS.
Anyhow, I've really liked builds which use intimidate lately and feel like they're a good fit with combat maneuvers and debuffing in general since the attack penalties help counter the advantage an enemy might gain by making full attacks for damage while you perform maneuvers and impose conditions.
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It depends on "Best Manuever".
At low levels, trip is hands down the best. It is easy to get bonuses (since bonuses from your weapon actually stack), a reach weapon with combat reflexes means opponents never get to you, and there are feats specifically designed to boost it (Fury's Fall gives you Dex AND Str; 5 levels of Manuever Master and you can get 3 stat bonuses to it). It also is easy to get multiple attacks (Vicious Stomp / Greater Trip), and is always a "go to" even in mid and high levels for those that can't avoid it (the flying / swimmers / 100 legged / ooze / elemental /huge... all right, pretty much most things high level). But since levels 1-7 see more play than most others, it is a great early focus.
For solo fights, or fights where only 1 enemy "really matters", grapple takes the cake. A lockdown forcing them to put their damage on the fighty-type (and good luck trying to cast ANY spell... even a quickened still spell has to overcome your CMB + spell level). Stopped by Freedom of Movement, Incorporability... and that's really about it. If you focus and can get to over +30 by 10th level (there are several approaches to this), you will have plenty of options, and even grapple things most don't think possible (in my 12 levels I grappled plenty of dragons). Just remember to save 20K for a flying carpet by level 9 so you can chase-grapple flyers.
Dirty trick is great as a backup to trip (with Manuever Master or "quick dirty trick"). But until you have greater, it can be removed with a move action still enabling casters to remove, step back, and cast their spells. This is why I love the 1-level MM splash... you can Dirty Trick + Grapple, eliminating their ability (even at low levels) of removing the blindness.
Grappling a dragon always seems to impress folks.
If you can get a Witch to hit your victims in their AC with the Evil Eye that can really help maneuvers succeed. My girlfriend has a Barbarian/Witch PC who plans to help herself this way. As a Scarred Witch Doctor with Prehensile Hair she'll soon be grappling using her Con against opponents who have a -4 to their CMD (enough to make up for her lost BAB).
Hopefully she'll eventually be able to pick up Raging Grappler as an Extra Rage Power so that she can knock opponents prone while grappling and let my PC stomp on them (two free attacks considering Vicious Stomp+Enforcer+Hurtful). Being prone also makes the grappled foe much less likely to escape. A few levels of Barbarian could be your ticket to grappling greatness. If you need Monk levels too for feats there's always the Martial Artist archetype (to make the alignment requirements work together)
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Monster tries to move up to and attack CMB tripper PC, Trippy, drawing an AoO from both Trippy and from Trippy's ally, Whomp. Trippy and Whomp both have Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon. Trippy gets an AoO and successfully trips the foe. Whomp get's an AoO versus the prone foe for damage, at +4 to hit. Foe's first move action is over and it failed to get within its reach of Trippy. Foe spends a Move action to stand up, drawing another AoO from both Trippy and Whomp, both for damage and both at +4 to hit. Foe wasted its turn and is still out of range.
Trippy and Whomp both full attack the foe, which is still 10' away. Trippy and Whomp both 5' step away, leaving them 15' from foe and out of its 5' step range.
Foe still has not even attacked. Foe has received three prone attacks and two more full attacks. If foe wishes to attack Trippy it must again move up and face his trippy AoOs. Trippy and Whomp have probably inflicted quite a lot of damage to the foe, have taken zero damage in return, and give the foe absolutely no chance to full attack. Even if Trippy blows his trip attempt, reach-trip tactics usually deny the full attack to the foe, thus minimizing incoming damage.
Note that, had Trippy just whomped on the foe with his first AoO, like Whomp did, they would only get those 2 damaging AoOs before the foe got its first attack.
With Trip you can generally make some AoOs and or just beat on the enemies while they're down. Grapple does damage directly. Dirty Trick disables the enemy so you can kill them at your leisure. I think there's even some Disarm related feat which allows you to inflict damage when you disarm a foe. Honestly I probably wouldn't try a Disarm based build unless I knew that the campaign would feature lots of vulnerable foes though. I might not even try it then...
Go barbarian and focus on grapple, then you can hit people with other people!
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Somehow I missed that but read lore warden.
Brawler dip is still good tho. IUS is an important pre-req for a bunch of feats, and you get another 3 uses of flexibility.
True, maybe Strangler and 2 levels.
What about Lore Warden?
It's funny cause strangler trades away IUS... which you need for improved grapple. But then you can grab 1 level of Maneuver Master Monk and get IUS anyway.
Sorry, I have no idea how you'd build for a guy who can do anything tho. Were you thinking DEX based? You'll probably be using AoOs in a bunch of your maneuvers anyway, so you could pick up a spear, combat reflexes, agile maneuvers, etc. and run interference until you use your move to grab the feat you need. You can also grab common pre-req feats like Power Attack.
The Ki Throw feats looked cool but I don't think they are great but I could be wrong.
This is untrue. If you're using Flurry of Blows you can replace 1 attack with a CMB at any time. Maneuver Master Monk allows you to Flurry of Maneuvers...which lets you do multiple maneuvers as part of a full-attack action. It also means you can only flurry maneuvers since you're replacing Flurry of Blows.They're not as diminishing return as one thinks.
First, at least 1 level of Manuever Master Monk is nearly a requirement for a "really good" CMB-specialist that can do more than just "Only Trip". The reason for this is they are the ONLY class in the game that effectively gives you a free "CMB" attack per turn as part of your attack.
Where does it say this? Quoted from PRD and I don't think I've seen it written any other way anywhere.
A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows.
The main benefit for a Manuever Master seems to be getting improved combat manuever feats sooner than most monks can a being able to do a wider variety of manuevers in a flurry. The downside as you mentioned is that you can't do multiple attacks for damage.
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Go barbarian and focus on grapple, then you can hit people with other people!
Add Strength Surge and some rage cycling. That would be nuts.
If you want to mess around with maneuvers you aren't fully trained in you could consider picking up a reach weapon. If you Trip or Disarm opponents who can't reach you they won't be able to take an AoO on you.