So both Arcane Pool from Magus and the Arcane Weapon exploit from Arcanist increase the enhancement bonus of a weapon, stacking with a weapon's existing bonus OR can add special abilities.
Do the abilities stack?
If you are a 5th level Magus (+2 from Arcane Pool) and you have a +1 weapon, you can make it +3, or +2 Keen, or +1 Flaming Burst, etc. by spending a point from your Arcane Pool as a swift action.
If you then take 5 levels in Arcanist and take the Arcane Weapon exploit (+1), you can spend a point from your Arcane Reservoir as a standard action to make a +1 weapon into a +2, or +1 Shock, etc.
Can these two abilities be used together to increase the Enhancement bonuses, the special abilities, or both?
Arcane Pool (Su)
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal.
Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the magus.
Arcane Weapon (Su)
As a standard action, the arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to enhance her weapon. The weapon is treated as magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At 5th level, the weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus, which increases by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level). These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5. An arcanist can also use this exploit to add one of the following weapon special abilities: dancing, defending, distance, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, spell storing, and throwing. Adding these special abilities replaces an amount of enhancement bonus equal to the ability's cost. Duplicate special abilities do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added to it before any other weapon special abilities can be added. The benefits are decided upon when the exploit is used, and they cannot be changed unless the exploit is used again. These benefits only apply to weapons wielded by the arcanist; if another creature attempts to wield the weapon, it loses these benefits, though they resume if the arcanist regains possession of the weapon. The arcanist cannot have more than one use of this ability active at a time. This effect lasts for a number of minutes equal to the arcanist's Charisma modifier (minimum 1).
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I think they can be stacked, but you can't spend points from one enhancement together with points from the other to pay for a costly ability.
Let's say you have a +1 magical weapon and you can add 3 points through the Arcane pool and 2 through arcane weapon.
You can make it a a +5 keen weapon starting with the base +1 and adding +3 with arcane pool and +1 keen with Arcane weapon.
But you can't make it +1 vorpal adding together the +3 from the arcane pool and the +2 from Arcane weapon and using those 5 points to pay for the vorpal ability (as an added limit Arcane weapon can't buy vorpal).
Nor you can use 1 point from arcane pool to give your weapon the keen ability and then 2 points from the arcane pool and 2 points from Arcane weapon to pay for the dancing ability, even if both abilities give you the dancing ability.
Edit: note that in every instance you are still limited to the total limit of 10 points of enhancements and special abilities.
How much BAB are you giving up to multiclass that way though (not to mention all of the other high-end class features)? Seems like you would most likely come out behind in the end.
Gestalt is the only time when this would be worth it. You would be so far behind in class abilities for both your classes that having huge bonuses on your weapon would, maybe, bring you up to par. Maybe.
How much BAB are you giving up to multiclass that way though (not to mention all of the other high-end class features)? Seems like you would most likely come out behind in the end.
It wasn't a matter of "if it is worth it" it was just find out if they do stack or don't by the rules. :)
It is for a gestalt character, but I usually ask rules questions based on core (non-gestalt) mechanics (which usually look very non-optimized).
They don't stack... they're both bestowing the same kind of bonus from separately tracked effects. It's just like a similar question about channeling for a cleric/paladin.
Separately tracked effects that both state that they DO stack with any existing enhancement bonus... so a little different. They also come from different pools. So I'm not suggesting that spending a point from the Arcane Pool gets you both abilities. They need to be used separately. It would be like channeling as a Paladin to heal 12 hps, then channeling as a cleric to heal 10 more. The dice don't stack, but the healing does when they are used and tracked separately.
It also isn't ONLY an enhancement bonus. One could give the weapon a total of +3 enhancement and the other could give it a +1 ability like Flaming. So it isn't a cut and dry number vs number, enhancement bonus issue.
I agree with lazarx by "an existing bonus" they mean a permanent magical enhancement to the weapon. Such as having a +2 longsword. As opposed to how Greater Magic Weapon works, which only applies the highest value to the weapon. For insatnce a +4 longsword that has greater magic weapon cast upon it by an 8th level caster remains a +4 weapon and the spell has basically no effect on the weapon.
I would rule that the application of the ability could stack for special weapon enhancements, but not to increase the flat enhancement bonus. I feel this is a bit unclear so let me provide an example. Lets say each pool provides a +2 bonus. You have a +1 longsword. You could not combine both to have a +5 longsword. You could however have a +3 longsword with special abilities equal a +2.
If it's a weapon bonus, and it exists, then it's an existing weapon bonus.
The word "permanent" doesn't show up at all.
Obviously we disagree as to the meaning of the words.
It pretty much all hinges on what is meant by "existing bonus", do you not agree?
LazarX and I have a different opinion of what existing bonus means. And unfortunately it has not been clearly defined.
This sounds like a candidate for FAQ, though unfortunately it is unlikely to be resolved any time soon.
Is there a source that verifies Greater Magic Weapon stacks with Arcane Pool?
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So you don't have any proof?
With the way Greater Magic Weapon functions it states specifically that it gives an set enhancement bonus. It doesn't matter what it as before. So, I can see no reason why greater magic weapon would stack with arcane pool.
Greater Magic Weapon effectively replaces the enhancement bonus.
GMW could however be used to grant an enhancement bonus whiel the arcane pool is used to grant weapon abilities.
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
That's what the ability says.
To me, with the context of the ability it says it stacks with existing enhancements on the weapon.
I'm not ignoring any rules, but I am asking for proof because it doesn't say to me what it says to you. And I'm legitimately trying to understand how you arrived at your conclusion. I'm not being insulting about it, and I am asking a legitimate question. But you're telling me I'm stupid because I have a different interpretation.
I'm not making an assertion here, you're the one making the assertion that it does stack. I'm asking what evidence you have. You're evidence is, read the words. I'm sorry, but that's not convincing evidence because I reach a different conclusion.
Sorry if that offends you.
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I usually go for simple when it comes to rules, and that usually means looking at things as a whole. In this case, it isn't just the Enhancement bonus part that I'm looking at, but also the special abilities. If the consensus is that the special abilities stack (a +1 weapon can become Flame Burst with Arcane Pool, and Keen with Arcane Weapon) than the abilities stack. If the abilities stack, then the Enhancement bonuses stack.
If on the other hand most believe that the Enhancement bonuses don't stack, for whatever reason, then the special abilities shouldn't be an exception and the abilities just shouldn't stack.
Stacking one way but not stacking another way just seems unnecessary.
(My main use of these two abilities would be to use Arcane Pool for Enhancement bonus, and Arcane Weapon for special abilities, but like I said simple would be good. You never know when an extra +1 could come in handy instead of Shocking)
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So you don't have any proof?
With the way Greater Magic Weapon functions it states specifically that it gives an set enhancement bonus. It doesn't matter what it as before. So, I can see no reason why greater magic weapon would stack with arcane pool.
Greater Magic Weapon effectively replaces the enhancement bonus.
GMW could however be used to grant an enhancement bonus whiel the arcane pool is used to grant weapon abilities.
That is not what MW and GMW say.
They say:"Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon's +1 bonus on attack rolls."
and
"This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic."
The stacking rules say that 2 identical bonus don't stack but overlap, and the MW and GMW bonus are enhancement bonus that overlap the existing enhancement bonus.
But Arcane Pool, the paladin divine bond and so on say explicitly: "These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5"
You have an existing bonus with MW and GMW? Yes.
You have an explicit rule saying that they stack instead of overlapping as normal? Yes.
So they stack.
Actually I stepped away from this thread and played some video games (after I got home) and stopped thinking about this for a bit. Rereading everything I now agree that it stacks.
I'm not sure exactly why I didn't think it did, but I agree that it does.
I think it maybe it was just because it strikes me odd that if you cast GMW after it doesn't work, but if you do it before it does. That doesn't really make sense, but that is how it functions apparently.
Again, not real sure why I didn't think it didn't work. Probably just because I was distracted while I was thinking on the topic. Anyways...as to the original topic...seems like they probably would stack (Arcane Pool and the Weapon Exploit). If it said it functioned as the Arcane Pool ability I might be inclined to call them the same source, but despite being written the same way they are not. So it would appear they stack.
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So you don't have any proof?For basic reading comprehension?
We certainly have proof someone is lacking.
Thanks for the insult after I changed my mind?
Do you feel better for deliberately insulting me? We all make mistakes from time to time Arthanthos, and I normally highly respect your opinions and thoughts.
However, I can now understand why some people consider this board a toxic environment to ask questions when you do not understand.
Having been on both sides now I can understand why it is frustrating on both ends. It is easy to assume feigned ignorance with intent of malice when someone has a genuine misunderstanding and cannot explain. But reactions such as this and many above do not help the situation.
Admittedly, I have reacted the same way before and probably will again. But hopefully I can be more mindful and helpful than insulting in the future.
Despite your snark, the issue is not rules comprehension but interpretation of the interaction between two different rules sets that were never intended to be applied together. Because believe it or not, Paizo doesn't pay much attention to multi-classing shennanigans.
I'm not sure if "shenanigans" is the right word. If you were to multiclass as suggested (5 Magus / 5 Arcanist) you end up with a total of +3 that can be added to your weapon (though as was pointed out, it couldn't be used for a +3 ability, it has to be broken up into a +2 and a +1) and requires two actions (a Swift and a Standard). If you had stayed Magus, at 10th level you would have +3 for your Arcane Pool, so you would have the same bonus, you would just be able to use it for a +3 special ability and it would only cost you a Swift action.
So I think they took multiclassing into consideration when they came up with the formula for Arcane Weapon. There isn't anyway to get more than +5 combining the two abilities when multiclassing.
I prefer to make sure rules work no matter what order they are applied. I see no reason why GMW would behave differently before or after arcane pool, divine bond, arcane weapon are applied.
Masterwork Longsword
Cast GMW on it: +2 Longsword
Apply +2 Arcane Pool: +2 Longsword with a +2 Arcane Pool.
This item behaves as a +4 Longsword, but for effect tracking, the effects need to be tracked separately. What if the GMW effect is dispelled? You'd end up with a Masterwork Longsword with +2 Arcane Pool, NOT a +2 Longsword. Again, mechanically, it's the same thing, but it should be tracked as such.
With that concept in mind:
Masterwork Longsword
Apply +2 Arcane Pool: Masterwork Longsword with +2 Arcane Pool.
Cast GMW: +2 Longsword with a +2 Arcane Pool.
Apply Keen Arcane Weapon: +2 Longsword with +2 Arcane Pool and Keen from Arcane Weapon. Again - tracked separately -but the end mechanical result is a +4 Keen Longsword.
+1 Flaming Longsword.
Cast GMW: +2 Flaming Longsword.
Apply +1/Keen Arcane Pool: Tracked separately, but mechanically a +3 Keen Flaming Keen Longsword.
(My main use of these two abilities would be to use Arcane Pool for Enhancement bonus, and Arcane Weapon for special abilities, but like I said simple would be good. You never know when an extra +1 could come in handy instead of Shocking)
The other way around might work better since, as I read it, Arcane Weapon can only give one special ability at a time while Arcane Pool can give several.
Oops. Didn't realize you were just at lvl 5 for each.