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In my homebrews, I have artificer prestige class that counts their total level as triple for fixing items. Presumably those items are fixed by something similar in PFS by paying the money.I don't think pfs allows any homebrew of any sort....
There is no cap on the caster level given in the spell casting services section of the Core Book. Just plug in the number you need and pay.
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As others have already said, its hard to judge the GM when we werent there to see what was going on at the table. Situations like this sound bad at first glance, but there could be many other things that could be going on. By 'kill', I assume here you mean 'attack'.
Examples:
Perhaps the PCs adjacent to the bad guy werent a significant threat to it?
Perhaps the PC the bad guy went after was doing the most damage?
Perhaps it had favored enemy?
Perhaps it went after that PC for a story based reason?
Perhaps it was in the tactics to go after someone who fit that PCs description?Right. When I GM, I rarely CdG, but it's an option. Sometimes CdG is called for in the tactics. Sometimes the tactics don't list it, but the monster's entry in the Bestiary mentions it. Sometimes the actual words 'CdG' don't appear, but that's clearly what is happening.
In addition to the examples Seth posted, I'll add another:
In a ** spoiler omitted **
Now, technically, it isn't a CdG, but it may as well be- the final outcome is the same. Personally, I'd say having my PC eaten alive in front of me is worse than receiving a CdG. But YMMV.
See, now when I see a situation like this, I see it as the author being nice. The ghoul is ravenous. He isn't going to waste time CdGing a paralyzed target. He is just going to start eating. Which translates into 1 bite attack a round on a helpless opponent. While perhaps disturbing, this is better than a full attack every round against a helpless opponent, CdGing the opponent, or arguably, attacking the rest of the party until everyone is paralyzed.
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** spoiler omitted **As others have already said, its hard to judge the GM when we werent there to see what was going on at the table. Situations like this sound bad at first glance, but there could be many other things that could be going on. By 'kill', I assume here you mean 'attack'.
Examples:
Perhaps the PCs adjacent to the bad guy werent a significant threat to it?
Perhaps the PC the bad guy went after was doing the most damage?
Perhaps it had favored enemy?
Perhaps it went after that PC for a story based reason?
Perhaps it was in the tactics to go after someone who fit that PCs description?Right. When I GM, I rarely CdG, but it's an option. Sometimes CdG is called for in the tactics. Sometimes the tactics don't list it, but the monster's entry in the Bestiary mentions it. Sometimes the actual words 'CdG' don't appear, but that's clearly what is happening.
In addition to the examples Seth posted, I'll add another:
In a ** spoiler omitted **
Now, technically, it isn't a CdG, but it may as well be- the final outcome is the same. Personally, I'd say having my PC eaten alive in front of me is worse than receiving a CdG. But YMMV.
Agreed.
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See, now when I see a situation like this, I see it as the author being nice. The ghoul is ravenous. He isn't going to waste time CdGing a paralyzed target. He is just going to start eating. Which translates into 1 bite attack a round on a helpless opponent. While perhaps disturbing, this is better than a full attack every round against a helpless opponent, CdGing the opponent, or arguably, attacking the rest of the party until everyone is paralyzed.
You're right on the mechanics, but it would still be really, really creepy.
Unless that means a CDG with the bite attack.
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Interesting reading!
It would be wise for my ranger to have some cash on hand. He already carries 2 bows and is likely to get a 3rd.
How do you determine the cost of a make whole spell? Can't see a formula in the guide or a quick search of the CRB. I'm guessing it's not simply 60 GP x required caster level? Maybe it is?
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The official PFS rule is that you can somehow find a guy with high enough of a CL and pay them to do it. 20 isn't the cap for CL, anyway.Even then, a +5 item would require a level 20 Mage.
Anything higher is totally unfixable.
A belt of physical might or any other 2 stat boot item is always CL 12.
Always unfixable.
A wizard did it. When GMing for a PC who needs a CL 11+ item repaired, I sometimes roleplay a quick meeting with a powerful cleric who shrugs at the challenge and begins casting death knell on a cage full of something cute and innocent to boost her caster level. It's a reminder of the hidden cost of repairing those +2 holy composite longbows. Note: no fluffy bunnies need actually be harmed in the repair of your paladin's holy avenger; a wizard did it.
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The official PFS rule is that you can somehow find a guy with high enough of a CL and pay them to do it. 20 isn't the cap for CL, anyway.Even then, a +5 item would require a level 20 Mage.
Anything higher is totally unfixable.
A belt of physical might or any other 2 stat boot item is always CL 12.
Always unfixable.A wizard did it. When GMing for a PC who needs a CL 11+ item repaired, I sometimes roleplay a quick meeting with a powerful cleric who shrugs at the challenge and begins casting death knell on a cage full of something cute and innocent to boost her caster level. It's a reminder of the hidden cost of repairing those +2 holy composite longbows. Note: no fluffy bunnies need actually be harmed in the repair of your paladin's holy avenger; a wizard did it.
** spoiler omitted **
It still costs a pretty substantial chunk of cash. This, by the way, is whey my archer ranger is getting a glove of storing. :)
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Many thanks! I was reading the wrong part of the Guide - I tracked down the CRB thing.
And it's funny you mention the +2 holy composite longbow, John! It's as if most good-aligned archers have them once they can afford it...
So, what is the CL of a given weapon?
From the CRB:
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
So the required CL for a +2 holy weapon would be 7? Since it's higher than the 6 required for the +2 base enhancement bonus?
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Thank you - the rule appeared a bit ambiguous. It says the higher of the two requirements. Wasn't sure if that meant the higher of the base enhancement and the special ability, or the higher of the base enhancement compared to the total imputed bonus, which is +4 in this case.
So the cost here would be (12x2) x 2 x 10, or 480 GP? Assuming the caster really needs to be 24th level to do it and make whole isn't somehow changed from being a 2nd level spell?
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Yep and buying it as a spell casting service is always a minimum caster level so you need a PC of the appropriate level.Nah, you can get a mending or a make whole depending on how busted up it is. It's really only effective against PCs if they are out in the middle of the boonies with no access to spell casting services. But it can make some fights more interesting by neutering an archer for one fight.Make whole only works I've you're double the item's caster level.
False, I was quite easily able to purchase spellcasting services of "Remove Disease" at higher caster levels to guarantee that Filth Fever was removed on the caster level check. Bloody fine way to spend all of my first chronicle sheet's gold.
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I am reminded of just how awesome it is to just cast greater magic weapon on a 30gp cold iron longsword each morning. :)
That is an awesome spell, but it does have the flaw that it doesn't let you get through DR like the real thing. That's why holy is so popular on ranged weapons. Or one of the reasons. In fact, that spell is most amazing in conjunction with magic weapons with lots of non-numerical enhancements like a +1 holy flaming bow.
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I am reminded of just how awesome it is to just cast greater magic weapon on a 30gp cold iron longsword each morning. :)That is an awesome spell, but it does have the flaw that it doesn't let you get through DR like the real thing. That's why holy is so popular on ranged weapons. Or one of the reasons. In fact, that spell is most amazing in conjunction with magic weapons with lots of non-numerical enhancements like a +1 holy flaming bow.
Sure, the value will vary depending on the circumstances of the wielder. I'm just saying it's got some perks. :)
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Just as a note this GM metagaming. No one knows what they roll.
B) A superior attack had missed the only other target within reach on an "18".
Players do. And they use that knowledge constantly to make decisions about toggling power attack. And I think players and NPCs should have some idea of how solid of a hit they landed and whether it affected the target or not.
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Just as a note this GM metagaming. No one knows what they roll.
B) A superior attack had missed the only other target within reach on an "18".
(N)PCs don't know it as a numerical value, but they absolutely know the difference between when they miss because of poor execution and when they make a near-perfect attack that still doesn't get through.
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Anti-plague would have been much cheaper. Justy sayin.
Try affording any utility items on just a 150 gold budget. Everybody seems to forget just how crippling starting wealth is in this game when you have no idea what cockamaney out-of-the-blue challenge the scenario writers are going to decide is the "Thrill of the Week!" to use against groups of people in their first scenario who just want to get to the real content where death is a result of bad tactics, not one lousy or lucky roll. I spend enough gold just making sure I have silver and cold iron weapons for the next time I face something in my first scenario that flies, has fast healing canceled by silver, acid or fire, and DR 5/Cold Iron, all in an AC 21 package.
It's easy to blithely ignore this little detail when one can use GM credit to start with a shiny, already-online build, but at least try and remember the full set of character creation rules from start to finish and some of the things Tier 1-2 tries to pass off as not something to scoff at.
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I'll have to reference the discussions about it again, I may be misremembering.Ive been doing this the same way, but I cant argue with jiggy's logic about creating and failing to define a new term.
Edit: Especially considering just about every effect in the game that definitely does count goes out of its way to say "This is a X".
The rules are riddled with new terms that aren't fully defined though. Attack Action from Vital Strike being a prime example.
That being said, I agree with Jiggy's interpretation. It can't be taken as RAW if there is no solid definition of the terminology being used. Same as Style feats and feats in the Style Feat path being different. One has the designation [style] (only the first feat in the style feat path) and the others don't. So Master of Many Styles can only take the [style] feat without any prerequisites, while the feats in the Style Feat Path can avoid all other prerequisites except for the [style] feat itself.
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Anti-plague would have been much cheaper. Justy sayin.Try affording any utility items on just a 150 gold budget. Everybody seems to forget just how crippling starting wealth is in this game when you have no idea what cockamaney out-of-the-blue challenge the scenario writers are going to decide is the "Thrill of the Week!" to use against groups of people in their first scenario who just want to get to the real content where death is a result of bad tactics, not one lousy or lucky roll. I spend enough gold just making sure I have silver and cold iron weapons for the next time I face something in my first scenario that flies, has fast healing canceled by silver, acid or fire, and DR 5/Cold Iron, all in an AC 21 package.
It's easy to blithely ignore this little detail when one can use GM credit to start with a shiny, already-online build, but at least try and remember the full set of character creation rules from start to finish and some of the things Tier 1-2 tries to pass off as not something to scoff at.
So you played
Or something very similar? It was a nasty one, and took just a hint of GM fiat for us to pull through. Had to retreat, start a fire, apply silver weapon blanch, etc. Thankfully none of us were fresh characters! Yeah, some scenarios give 0 XP folks barely a chance.
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Anti-plague would have been much cheaper. Justy sayin.Try affording any utility items on just a 150 gold budget. Everybody seems to forget just how crippling starting wealth is in this game when you have no idea what cockamaney out-of-the-blue challenge the scenario writers are going to decide is the "Thrill of the Week!" to use against groups of people in their first scenario who just want to get to the real content where death is a result of bad tactics, not one lousy or lucky roll. I spend enough gold just making sure I have silver and cold iron weapons for the next time I face something in my first scenario that flies, has fast healing canceled by silver, acid or fire, and DR 5/Cold Iron, all in an AC 21 package.
It's easy to blithely ignore this little detail when one can use GM credit to start with a shiny, already-online build, but at least try and remember the full set of character creation rules from start to finish and some of the things Tier 1-2 tries to pass off as not something to scoff at.
So you played
** spoiler omitted **
Or something very similar? It was a nasty one, and took just a hint of GM fiat for us to pull through. Had to retreat, start a fire, apply silver weapon blanch, etc. Thankfully none of us were fresh characters! Yeah, some scenarios give 0 XP folks barely a chance.
That is indeed the scenario, although I've seen plenty of other players go through the same experience as 0XP in other subtier 1-2 scenarios as well.
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Your point is well-taken. I've GM'ed a few other scenarios that really are hard on level 1's (even more so on those fresh PC's) and read a few spoilers on others that I wouldn't even run at the 1-2 subtier.
And I've played in some where the dice just didn't break the wrong way, or things could have gone bad. I mean, the last encounter of First Steps I can be deadly if your party fails a spell save, or if a particualr NPC crits. a x3 crit weapon in a 1-2 game is brutal, but there are other offenders.
Darkness and save-or-suck effects, I'm looking at you.
Your best bet with a fresh PC is to play The Confirmation, or perhaps the newest scenario, The Wounded Wisp.
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3 X 4 = 12. +2 holy is a CL 12 item, because it is 4 points of enhancement. Also, there is no reason a neutral archer can't use the holy enhancement, either. Certainly as a neutral I would expect to have the most trouble from evil-aligned NPCs.
That's not how the caster level is determined. Its the actual enhancement bonus, or the special ability caster level. You don't use the effective enhancement bonus.
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Honestly, the only time I can ever see an NPC actively going out of his way to attack downed PCs while being threatened by the other PCs, is if the NPC is arrogant and supremely confident in his abilities, dismissive of the PCs, or both.
Which is, in fact, the BBEG's attitude an a lot of PFS scenarios. Also, a lot of tactics call for "This NPC fights to the death for <reason>". Sure, this can imply desperation, zealotry, fear, any number of motivations. But it can also mean "I'm willing to die for my cause, and if I can take even 1 other person (PC) with me, I'll die satisfied." In scenarios where the NPCs have been arrogant, zealous, or whatever, I tend to consider killing PCs to be the NPC's final 'screw you' before dying.
That's the NPC's attitude, not mine as a GM. When I kill PCs, I always feel horrible about it, even when the death is either 100% the player's fault or just bad dice rolls. It's never personal. I'm sure that somewhere, sometimes, a GM will target PCs for some vindictive, meta-gamey reason. But 'the GM is a jerk' should never be the first conclusion a player should jump to.
ven moreso if the NPC can't seem to hit the active PCs - at that point most folks would start getting desperate and considering fleeing or surrendering, not "making sure this one's dead".
Again, often the tatctics say 'this NPC fights to the death'. While yes, we have the option to change the tactics when they become non-viable, but this one almost never gets changed, since dying is part of the point. If an NPC is committed to dying, why not take a downed PC with him if he can?
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Anti-plague would have been much cheaper. Justy sayin.Try affording any utility items on just a 150 gold budget. Everybody seems to forget just how crippling starting wealth is in this game when you have no idea what cockamaney out-of-the-blue challenge the scenario writers are going to decide is the "Thrill of the Week!" to use against groups of people in their first scenario who just want to get to the real content where death is a result of bad tactics, not one lousy or lucky roll. I spend enough gold just making sure I have silver and cold iron weapons for the next time I face something in my first scenario that flies, has fast healing canceled by silver, acid or fire, and DR 5/Cold Iron, all in an AC 21 package.
It's easy to blithely ignore this little detail when one can use GM credit to start with a shiny, already-online build, but at least try and remember the full set of character creation rules from start to finish and some of the things Tier 1-2 tries to pass off as not something to scoff at.
You can drink the anti-plague after the fact and get a new save with a huge bonus instead of paying for the remove disease. That was my point.
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3 X 4 = 12. +2 holy is a CL 12 item, because it is 4 points of enhancement. Also, there is no reason a neutral archer can't use the holy enhancement, either. Certainly as a neutral I would expect to have the most trouble from evil-aligned NPCs.That's not how the caster level is determined. Its the actual enhancement bonus, or the special ability caster level. You don't use the effective enhancement bonus.
Where does it say that? I see it: "If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met."
That's weak, but that's what it says.
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Honestly, the only time I can ever see an NPC actively going out of his way to attack downed PCs while being threatened by the other PCs, is if the NPC is arrogant and supremely confident in his abilities, dismissive of the PCs, or both.Which is, in fact, the BBEG's attitude an a lot of PFS scenarios. Also, a lot of tactics call for "This NPC fights to the death for <reason>". Sure, this can imply desperation, zealotry, fear, any number of motivations. But it can also mean "I'm willing to die for my cause, and if I can take even 1 other person (PC) with me, I'll die satisfied." In scenarios where the NPCs have been arrogant, zealous, or whatever, I tend to consider killing PCs to be the NPC's final 'screw you' before dying.
That's the NPC's attitude, not mine as a GM. When I kill PCs, I always feel horrible about it, even when the death is either 100% the player's fault or just bad dice rolls. It's never personal. I'm sure that somewhere, sometimes, a GM will target PCs for some vindictive, meta-gamey reason. But 'the GM is a jerk' should never be the first conclusion a player should jump to.
ven moreso if the NPC can't seem to hit the active PCs - at that point most folks would start getting desperate and considering fleeing or surrendering, not "making sure this one's dead".Again, often the tatctics say 'this NPC fights to the death'. While yes, we have the option to change the tactics when they become non-viable, but this one almost never gets changed, since dying is part of the point. If an NPC is committed to dying, why not take a downed PC with him if he can?
It's not something I consider until the PCs show healing resources.
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Whenever a GM travels to a convention and kills a PC at their table, does that qualify as going out of their way?
What if they were combining that convention trip with a business or personal trip, so it wasn't really out of their way?
These are the questions that keep me up at night.
Personally, I don't see any reason necessary other than "this NPC is an a$$hole." However, I abide by the PFS ruling on this matter. It's much more action efficient to just use regular attacks, anyway. Particularly for someone with flurry."This NPC wants to live" is usually a good reason.
It's rare that hitting the dead-ish guy is a better idea then hitting the live-ish guy.A) The PCs had shown healing
B) A superior attack had missed the only other target within reach on an "18".
The conclusion was that the best move was to make sure the archer guy was down. Frankly, NPCs should always be making sure archer types are dead, because archery is crazy good.
It's not being a "jerk" to make the NPCs realistic.
I think you're mistaking "realistic" with "efficient".
In the heat of battle, few people will be thinking clearly enough while under fire to decide to attack an already downed opponent, rather than his currently active buddies, on the chance that the downed opponent might become a threat again some time in the future.
Unless the NPC is portrayed as a tactical genius and always cool under fire, most should NOT be doing that kinda thing, even if it's pragmatic.
Because people don't act that way. Unless the "person" is being run as a tactical combat machine rather than a person.
-j
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I think in this case the NPCs actions were justified. Because they were a killing machine by background.
And I think the lethality of archers can be remember as well, even in the heat of battle, if we want to get into that point.
I'd also like to point out that many players play their PCs the way you describe, always counting precisely for their fireballs, etc, so I think some NPCs should be able to do the same.
The game is not called PCs rule, NPCs drool and always lose like chumps.
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3 X 4 = 12. +2 holy is a CL 12 item, because it is 4 points of enhancement. Also, there is no reason a neutral archer can't use the holy enhancement, either. Certainly as a neutral I would expect to have the most trouble from evil-aligned NPCs.That's not how the caster level is determined. Its the actual enhancement bonus, or the special ability caster level. You don't use the effective enhancement bonus.Where does it say that? I see it: "If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met."
That's weak, but that's what it says.
There are two caster level requirements in play here. One for the enhancement bonus, and one for the special ability.
+2 enhancement is caster level 6. Holy is caster level 7. So, the higher of these two caster level requirements is 7. That gives the caster level of the item: 7.
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3 X 4 = 12. +2 holy is a CL 12 item, because it is 4 points of enhancement. Also, there is no reason a neutral archer can't use the holy enhancement, either. Certainly as a neutral I would expect to have the most trouble from evil-aligned NPCs.That's not how the caster level is determined. Its the actual enhancement bonus, or the special ability caster level. You don't use the effective enhancement bonus.Where does it say that? I see it: "If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met."
That's weak, but that's what it says.
There are two caster level requirements in play here. One for the enhancement bonus, and one for the special ability.
+2 enhancement is caster level 6. Holy is caster level 7. So, the higher of these two caster level requirements is 7. That gives the caster level of the item: 7.
I realize that now. If this were homebrew, I might rule it as level 12 anyway, but it doesn't really matter much.
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You can drink the anti-plague after the fact and get a new save with a huge bonus instead of paying for the remove disease. That was my point.Anti-plague would have been much cheaper. Justy sayin.Try affording any utility items on just a 150 gold budget. Everybody seems to forget just how crippling starting wealth is in this game when you have no idea what cockamaney out-of-the-blue challenge the scenario writers are going to decide is the "Thrill of the Week!" to use against groups of people in their first scenario who just want to get to the real content where death is a result of bad tactics, not one lousy or lucky roll. I spend enough gold just making sure I have silver and cold iron weapons for the next time I face something in my first scenario that flies, has fast healing canceled by silver, acid or fire, and DR 5/Cold Iron, all in an AC 21 package.
It's easy to blithely ignore this little detail when one can use GM credit to start with a shiny, already-online build, but at least try and remember the full set of character creation rules from start to finish and some of the things Tier 1-2 tries to pass off as not something to scoff at.
Almost all diseases require 2 consecutive saves to remove. We're talking past each other at this point.
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3 X 4 = 12. +2 holy is a CL 12 item, because it is 4 points of enhancement. Also, there is no reason a neutral archer can't use the holy enhancement, either. Certainly as a neutral I would expect to have the most trouble from evil-aligned NPCs.That's not how the caster level is determined. Its the actual enhancement bonus, or the special ability caster level. You don't use the effective enhancement bonus.Where does it say that? I see it: "If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met."
That's weak, but that's what it says.
And if you have the Dueling ability that enhances your trip and disarm abilities at double the enhancement bonus plus the enhancement bonus of the weapon, do you figure Dueling into that equation, or just the straight enhancement bonus?
+1 Dueling Longsword would give you +3 to Trip and Disarm, while a +2 Dueling Longsword would give you a +6 to Trip and Disarm.
The enhancement bonus of that weapon is +1. Not +2. So figuring the caster level of the +1 Dueling Longsword, it would either be Caster Level 3 or Caster Level equal to the Dueling ability.
It would not be Caster level 6 or Caster Level equal to the Dueling ability. Because the Dueling ability does not add to the enhancement bonus of the item.
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Jiggy and TOZ
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Try affording any utility items on just a 150 gold budget. Everybody seems to forget just how crippling starting wealth is in this game when you have no idea what cockamaney out-of-the-blue challenge the scenario writers are going to decide is the "Thrill of the Week!" to use against groups of people in their first scenario who just want to get to the real content where death is a result of bad tactics, not one lousy or lucky roll. I spend enough gold just making sure I have silver and cold iron weapons for the next time I face something in my first scenario that flies, has fast healing canceled by silver, acid or fire, and DR 5/Cold Iron, all in an AC 21 package.
I kinda agree with this.
There's good reason way too many of my characters start out with studded leather or parade armor, a 25 gp alchemical silver battle aspergillum, a cold iron slashing weapon (sickle or longsword), torches, 50' or 100' of rope, and a couple alkali flasks. It becomes rote (which in turn can border on boring).
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David: I personally find it unrealistic that an enemy combatant would have a cool enough head to attack an unconscious body as part of a full attack action because his first missed. Unless that NPC has a status-like effect running, the NPC has little grounds to believe that the PC is still alive. While an 18 is a "good hit" and missed, I think that few RL combatants would give up another opportunity to try to take down the thing that was going to kill them, even if it was unlikely to hit.
However, we also have to examine the social constructs involved in an Organized Play campaign. While, from your previous posts, I realize that you are not keen on considering them, it is still important. As Venture Officer, it is my goal to encourage PFS play and to keep people coming back to the table. Running excessively lethal games is counter-intuitive to that. For new players, Tier 7-11 stands at the top of an experience chasm that can take months to ascend. If we assume that a player plays once a week, getting a character to level 7 takes them 18 weeks, or 3 1/2 months of regular play. Killing off a character in an unrecoverable fashion sets these players back a significant amount. Players obviously get angry when they get these setbacks. Shrugging it off and hiding behind the rules merely compounds the problem. It makes you look callous and your event look unsportsmanlike. While I can understand the position that many people take regarding fudging being against the rules, I cannot understand why a competent GM with a commitment to the advancement of his local gaming scene would deviate from written tactics in a way that seems to be of benefit only in the sense that it ensures that a death occurs.
I say this not to chastize you, but to encourage you to consider the broader implications of your actions on the health of your local region. I say it with such force because, based on your posts, this is a very dear issue to you. In the end, though, I think that PFS GMs need to realize that PFS is not like a home game. You can't simply write up a new character and hop back into the next session like nothing happened. For single-character players, an unrecoverable character death rarely results in the player returning. Even for experienced players, a character death that feels unwarranted is likely to drive them away.
Please note that the above post is my personal opinion, and not the collective opinion of the Venture Officers, nor of campaign leadership. Despite the fact that I am a Venture Officer, I retain the right to express my personal opinion regarding matters important to the community, and am choosing to exercise that right in the above post.